2023-24 NY Knicks trade ideas, Part 3

[cgf]

ATL prize of the Murray trade was 25/27 unprotected. That Charlotte pick is hot garbage it’s never converting will end up 2 seconds + pick swap.

I just feel like yesterday’s price ain’t tomorrow for ATL and I think they’ll find out the hard way.

They ain’t getting 2 unprotected 1sts, a pick swap and 2 seconds for Murray. Just can’t see it.

He was just 2 years away from UFA when they acquired him, whereas now he's got at least 3.5 years left. So the question the Hawks will need to answer is whether his failure in Atlanta hurt his value more than the increased term ups it?

[WargamesX]

Trading significant assets for a guy who has proven Jack **** and a weird fit on a mediocre team for 2 years isn’t something I’m longing for.

Our two best players were from the pile of “guys who haven’t proven Jack squat” now including OG who was injured during that Raptors championship run and only been second team defense. That argument holds no weight for the Knicks, if anything him being a former All star would make Murray the most proven commodity this team has traded for in a while, that isn’t way past their prime.

OG was a commodity that many teams wanted for his game changing defensive ability.

Jalen Brunson proved plenty before coming here, which is why I wanted him dating back to 2020. His playoff performances only solidified that.

If anything, Murray is more like the guard version of Julius Randle at this point. Hasn’t contributed a significant amount to winning.

We have pages and pages of debate on this very forum about Jalen not being the piece they need and him being overrated. Jalen and Randle are among the leagues MIP since they got here.

As for OG he is a nice piece but he is an ancillary piece, to what we’re doing here, but no he isn’t a proven commodity either. If Murray came here and provided his 20/5/5 he would be the most proven guy brought in. I just don’t get the hate for Murray, it’s counterproductive to wanting the Knicks to get better.

[Buttah304]

ATL prize of the Murray trade was 25/27 unprotected. That Charlotte pick is hot garbage it’s never converting will end up 2 seconds + pick swap.

I just feel like yesterday’s price ain’t tomorrow for ATL and I think they’ll find out the hard way.

They ain’t getting 2 unprotected 1sts, a pick swap and 2 seconds for Murray. Just can’t see it.

He was just 2 years away from UFA when they acquired him, whereas now he's got at least 3.5 years left. So the question the Hawks will need to answer is whether his failure in Atlanta hurt his value more than the increased term ups it?

Realistically ATL can probably get 1 unprotected first + young rotation player + 2 seconds. Of course I can be wrong but I can’t see them getting more. Maybe they would haggle for a pick swap but I’m not sure.

[WargamesX]

The Knicks have potentially 6 draft picks in the next two years, 7-9 guys who needs minutes, and a HC who has shown multiple times he prefers to run a 8 man rotation. They’ve also traded out of the last two stronger drafts for essentially Jalen and Josh Hart.

Something has to give

[cgf]

Our two best players were from the pile of “guys who haven’t proven Jack squat” now including OG who was injured during that Raptors championship run and only been second team defense. That argument holds no weight for the Knicks, if anything him being a former All star would make Murray the most proven commodity this team has traded for in a while, that isn’t way past their prime.

OG was a commodity that many teams wanted for his game changing defensive ability.

Jalen Brunson proved plenty before coming here, which is why I wanted him dating back to 2020. His playoff performances only solidified that.

If anything, Murray is more like the guard version of Julius Randle at this point. Hasn’t contributed a significant amount to winning.

We have pages and pages of debate on this very forum about Jalen not being the piece they need and him being overrated. Jalen and Randle are among the leagues MIP since they got here.

As for OG he is a nice piece but he is an ancillary piece, to what we’re doing here, but no he isn’t a proven commodity either. If Murray came here and provided his 20/5/5 he would be the most proven guy brought in. I just don’t get the hate for Murray, it’s counterproductive to wanting the Knicks to get better.

Stop it. Just because someone evaluates a player differently than you do doesn't mean they don't want the team to improve. That's just silly. Or should I start saying that you guys want the Knicks to get worse because Murray has been a bad defender for 4 years now, and even hot as he is this season, he's still not scoring at league average efficiency...nevermind that he's shooting 4.5% above his career average from 3?

[cgf]

The Knicks have potentially 6 draft picks in the next two years, 7-9 guys who needs minutes, and a HC who has shown multiple times he prefers to run a 8 man rotation. They’ve also traded out of the last two stronger drafts for essentially Jalen and Josh Hart.

Something has to give

This FO has shown they'll be proactive to extend the length of an asset if that's more convenient for them. So though I agree we need to spend our protected FRPs sooner or later, it's not like they are set in stone and can't be traded for future picks.

[sol537]

Someone on the Raptors board proposed:

Siakam + Poetl for Randle + Mitch + Fournier

Lateral move?

[Jeffrey]

I still don't see how Lakers can get away with trading for Lavine and Caruso without giving up Reeves. For sure Lavine but not both.

BTW, I want Caruso on the Knicks in the worst way.

It seems absurd to me too, which (I think) is why we heard Windhorst floating that Chicago would need to attach picks to move Lavine. Cause if Lavine did cost 1 FRP just to get rid, then JHS + 29 LAL FRP would sudden be enough to pay the 2 FRP price Chicago set on Caruso.

I hope Chicago isn't pressured into accepting that, but I think that's LeBron's endgame. Thus the rumors linking them to Murray, to try and scare the Bulls into accepting whatever LA has on the table, lest the Lakers spend what few assets they have on DJM...after they couldn't the Bulls to give in before Lavine returned and started helping them win more games.

But short of emails getting leaked, there's no real way to prove any of that.

If Chicago wants to get rid of him badly enough , Lakers if they miss out on the cheaper better valued contract of Murray could make it work


DeAngelo 17.3M (1 year left)
Rui Hachimura 15.7M (2 years left)
Vincent 11M (2 years left)
Vanderbilt 11M (4 years left)

FOR

Lavine 45M (3 years left)
and Ayo Dosunmu 7M (2 years left)

Can I say thats a horrible trade for the Bulls. Demar is a free agent, Lonzo Ball who knows when he is coming back. I'm pretty sure the Bulls want as much expirings as they can get. Lakers don't have the draft capital. Sigh, I might have to say that someway Lakers will just win these trades and gets an extension on their title window.

[WargamesX]

OG was a commodity that many teams wanted for his game changing defensive ability.

Jalen Brunson proved plenty before coming here, which is why I wanted him dating back to 2020. His playoff performances only solidified that.

If anything, Murray is more like the guard version of Julius Randle at this point. Hasn’t contributed a significant amount to winning.

We have pages and pages of debate on this very forum about Jalen not being the piece they need and him being overrated. Jalen and Randle are among the leagues MIP since they got here.

As for OG he is a nice piece but he is an ancillary piece, to what we’re doing here, but no he isn’t a proven commodity either. If Murray came here and provided his 20/5/5 he would be the most proven guy brought in. I just don’t get the hate for Murray, it’s counterproductive to wanting the Knicks to get better.

Stop it. Just because someone evaluates a player differently than you do doesn't mean they don't want the team to improve. That's just silly. Or should I start saying that you guys want the Knicks to get worse because Murray has been a bad defender for 4 years now, and even hot as he is this season, he's still not scoring at league average efficiency...nevermind that he's shooting 4.5% above his career average from 3?

Then make it make sense then. How is a 20/5/5 6’5 Pg shooting 47% FG and 39% from 3 a bad thing for the Knicks. Offensively, Trae hasn’t lost a step playing next to Murray either so the fears about it affecting Brunson are unfounded. Plus Jalen Johnson who plays like a mini-Randle is doing well enough that he is untouchable for trades.

Defensively. OG was on a 2nd all team defense and the league steal leader in 2023. Murray was on a 2nd all team defense and the league steal leader in 2022. The Hawks as a unit are just bad at defense and Snyder has them play man defense more than anything because Capella is cooked and they don’t have a center they can use for drop coverage.

[cgf]

Fournier + NYK/DAL FRP <---> Bogdanovic (ATL)
Flynn + cash + SRP <---> Mills
Mills + Sims + WSH FRP <---> Gafford

Achiuwa + cash + SRP <---> Tate
Tate + NYK/DAL FRP <---> Caruso

1-2 SRPs to the league office for our fines


Brunson | Caruso | McBride
DiVincenzo | Bogdanovic
Anunoby | Hart | Grimes
Randle
Hartenstein | Robinson | Gafford
+ Arcidiacono

[KnixinSix]

It seems absurd to me too, which (I think) is why we heard Windhorst floating that Chicago would need to attach picks to move Lavine. Cause if Lavine did cost 1 FRP just to get rid, then JHS + 29 LAL FRP would sudden be enough to pay the 2 FRP price Chicago set on Caruso.

I hope Chicago isn't pressured into accepting that, but I think that's LeBron's endgame. Thus the rumors linking them to Murray, to try and scare the Bulls into accepting whatever LA has on the table, lest the Lakers spend what few assets they have on DJM...after they couldn't the Bulls to give in before Lavine returned and started helping them win more games.

But short of emails getting leaked, there's no real way to prove any of that.

If Chicago wants to get rid of him badly enough , Lakers if they miss out on the cheaper better valued contract of Murray could make it work


DeAngelo 17.3M (1 year left)
Rui Hachimura 15.7M (2 years left)
Vincent 11M (2 years left)
Vanderbilt 11M (4 years left)

FOR

Lavine 45M (3 years left)
and Ayo Dosunmu 7M (2 years left)

Can I say thats a horrible trade for the Bulls. Demar is a free agent, Lonzo Ball who knows when he is coming back. I'm pretty sure the Bulls want as much expirings as they can get. Lakers don't have the draft capital. Sigh, I might have to say that someway Lakers will just win these trades and gets an extension on their title window.

That's the point it's a salary dump to get off that 4year 180M contract

[cgf]

We have pages and pages of debate on this very forum about Jalen not being the piece they need and him being overrated. Jalen and Randle are among the leagues MIP since they got here.

As for OG he is a nice piece but he is an ancillary piece, to what we’re doing here, but no he isn’t a proven commodity either. If Murray came here and provided his 20/5/5 he would be the most proven guy brought in. I just don’t get the hate for Murray, it’s counterproductive to wanting the Knicks to get better.

Stop it. Just because someone evaluates a player differently than you do doesn't mean they don't want the team to improve. That's just silly. Or should I start saying that you guys want the Knicks to get worse because Murray has been a bad defender for 4 years now, and even hot as he is this season, he's still not scoring at league average efficiency...nevermind that he's shooting 4.5% above his career average from 3?

Then make it make sense then. How is a 20/5/5 6’5 Pg shooting 47% FG and 39% from 3 a bad thing for the Knicks. Offensively, Trae hasn’t lost a step playing next to Murray either so the fears about it affecting Brunson are unfounded.

Defensively. OG was 2nd all team defense and the league steal leader in 2023. Murray was 2nd all team defense and the league steal leader in 2022. The Hawks as a unit are just bad at defense and Snyder has them play man defense more than anything because Capella is cooked and they don’t have a center they can use for drop coverage.

Because even shooting as well as he is through 39 games, he's so been bad at the rim & at drawing FTs that his TS is still at a below average 56.3%. Add in that he's a career 34.5% 3pt shooter with a career TS of 52.7%, and it's fair to wonder if he would regress towards those awfully-RJ-like career averages as a knick.


While Murray's defensive metrics started going down after his knee injury, even before he left SA. Unlike OG's that have been pretty consistently strong. So the Atlanta excuse is underwhelming. I don't pay for dunk&threes so don't have the historical EPM numbers, but:

Murray
D-RAPTOR: -1.1 ('23), 0.0 ('22), +0.3 ('21), -0.1 ('20), +3.2 ('18)
D-DARKO: -1.52 currently, and the graph has been steadily trending down since he came back in 2019-2020, from a peak around +1.0

Anunoby
D-RAPTOR: +2.2 ('23), -0.2 ('22), +2.3 ('21), +1.6 ('20), -0.3 ('19), +1.4 ('18)
D-DARKO: +1.09 currently, the graph has been steady at that level since the second half of 2019-2020, and it has never been below 0

https://apanalytics.shinyapps.io/DARKO//
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/nba-player-ratings/


Plus OG is long & strong enough to guard 1-5, whereas Murray is incredibly weak, and he struggles in man even against guys that can't just overpower him.

[cgf]

It seems absurd to me too, which (I think) is why we heard Windhorst floating that Chicago would need to attach picks to move Lavine. Cause if Lavine did cost 1 FRP just to get rid, then JHS + 29 LAL FRP would sudden be enough to pay the 2 FRP price Chicago set on Caruso.

I hope Chicago isn't pressured into accepting that, but I think that's LeBron's endgame. Thus the rumors linking them to Murray, to try and scare the Bulls into accepting whatever LA has on the table, lest the Lakers spend what few assets they have on DJM...after they couldn't the Bulls to give in before Lavine returned and started helping them win more games.

But short of emails getting leaked, there's no real way to prove any of that.

If Chicago wants to get rid of him badly enough , Lakers if they miss out on the cheaper better valued contract of Murray could make it work


DeAngelo 17.3M (1 year left)
Rui Hachimura 15.7M (2 years left)
Vincent 11M (2 years left)
Vanderbilt 11M (4 years left)

FOR

Lavine 45M (3 years left)
and Ayo Dosunmu 7M (2 years left)

Can I say thats a horrible trade for the Bulls. Demar is a free agent, Lonzo Ball who knows when he is coming back. I'm pretty sure the Bulls want as much expirings as they can get. Lakers don't have the draft capital. Sigh, I might have to say that someway Lakers will just win these trades and gets an extension on their title window.

Luckily the Bulls FO is stubborn and delusional, so they won't actually take something like that. But it is a scary thought

[Bob Ross]

I'd give up one of our picks and two of the protected picks for Murray. Of course nothing any of us says matters so who cares

[KnixinSix]

Randle's act is really wearing thin. Build around Brunson see if you can spin Randle and picks for something like Markenen.

[knicksNOTslick]

Someone on the Raptors board proposed:

Siakam + Poetl for Randle + Mitch + Fournier

Lateral move?

Someone on the Raptors board wants to pair up Randle and RJ all over again? He thinks it will work this time because it's in a different country?

[cgf]

Randle's act is really wearing thin. Build around Brunson see if you can spin Randle and picks for something like Markenen.

Swapping Randle for Markannen wouldn't help with our lack of non-Brunson creation.

[Jalen Bluntson]

Randle's act is really wearing thin. Build around Brunson see if you can spin Randle and picks for something like Markenen.

Swapping Randle for Markannen wouldn't help with our lack of non-Brunson creation.

It would help with everything else though.

[KnixinSix]

Randle's act is really wearing thin. Build around Brunson see if you can spin Randle and picks for something like Markenen.

Swapping Randle for Markannen wouldn't help with our lack of non-Brunson creation.

No worries . Murray for 2FRPs as you suggested as his asking price would.

[cgf]

Randle's act is really wearing thin. Build around Brunson see if you can spin Randle and picks for something like Markenen.

Swapping Randle for Markannen wouldn't help with our lack of non-Brunson creation.

It would help with everything else though.

It would help our 3pt shooting and dunking, but hurt our ball movement, give us fewer free throws, rebounds, and put more defensive attention on Brunson as our only playmaker. Plus Lauri's an even worse defender, though it's not a meaningful difference.

Lauri's an amazing finisher, but a bad Markannen game wouldn't have helped us win any more than that bad-Randle game did