PG: Knicks vs Jazz

[The KnicksFix]

Didn't watch but just by reading the thread I'm seeing a common theme from this board

When we win: Yeah we can beat anyone in the league with our new team!!!

When we lose: Fire Thibs!!!



At some point people are gonna realize that this isn't a coach problem. You traded for a wing that hasn't played defense in years and a really bad defensive C. So expect us to be trash defensively and be hovering around .500 for most of the year. We need to be extremely good on offense every night to offset any deficiency we have on defense to be a championship contender which I don't see happening realistically.

So who would you have realistically wanted? Say you knew Randle was leaving at the season’s end, and you risk losing him for nothing, what should they have done? And with the war chest of picks, who should they have traded for? Supplementary pieces? A star? I’m just curious as to what they should have done with Randle’s expiring (he wanted the max or close to it coming off shoulder surgery) and with the picks?

[3toheadmelo]

You frustrated? It should be pretty-much accepted that the team will be up-and-down without consistency until Precious and Mitch are back.

You can’t win consistently when you’re relying on outscoring opponents. One off shooting night will equate to a loss if you’re not an above average team defensively.

A Thibs coached team is like a fish out of water without an elite rim protector.

We've had a top 5 defense 1 time in his 5 years, we've been 3, 10, 19, 11 and 20 (now). Last season Mitch had a 118.7 DRTG when he was on the court, we were horrible defensively against teams that could shoot which is why the Pacers gave us so much trouble all throughout the season.


Today's game wasn't rim protection, it was giving up the most threes the Jazz have hit since 2022. A shocking number of them were on 1 pass off a screen because of how we defend screens. That keeps happening to us because Tom refuses to switch, it's why random bigs the last couple years would have career games against us from three. Tonight we were asking a 6'4" and 6'7" guys to go over a screen and then try and close out on a 7 footer who is one of the best catch and shoot 3 point shooters in the league. You have to switch against that, you live with them hitting Kessler on the roll and him making plays, or letting them get shots at the rim and trying to force them into long 2s

Our coach has the team selling out the 3 to protect the paint. We have a similar roster makeup as the Rockets, yet they are good defensively because they switch and they also put their center on the worst shooter when they can. At the most fundamental level we guard every team the same regardless of what they do well.

Sengun has been actually a damn good rim protector this year and is contesting a bunch of shots down there. KAT hasn't been good at protecting the rim at all. I guarantee if KAT was on this level we would be way better.

[WentzerWuver]

You’re losing to the hawks, the bulls, and now the jazz. You’re not a contender, and trades are incoming if they dont play above .500

There is some legitimacy to what mpharris36 said on page 3

Knicks really can't win in Utah

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/knicks-record-in-utah-the-last-46-seasons

From 1983 to 1990, Knicks lost 7 of 8 times in Utah. The one time the Knicks won was with Bernard King, but they lost with him too.

From 1993 to 2001, Knicks lost 8 times in a row in Utah. That's literally every great Patrick Ewing team the Knicks had.

If King was on this lineup instead of Hart, they would have won this game.

[The KnicksFix]

Trade Bridges for Ingram

Should've traded for Ingram in the first place. If Mikal isn't gonna play defense then we should've went all out on a wing that can score on all 3 levels and playmake. Overpaid for Bridges like he was on Ingram's level smh.

Brandon Ingram? You want BI???
I just saw that dood miss two free throws in the game on Friday against the dubs, then misses a corner three to tie the game because he dribbled the ball and tried to spot up instead of just catch and shoot. BI is NOT the answer on offense or defense man.

[Chanel Bomber]

It was obvious from the first quarter that the team didn't have it. They just looked flat.

[3toheadmelo]

Didn't watch but just by reading the thread I'm seeing a common theme from this board

When we win: Yeah we can beat anyone in the league with our new team!!!

When we lose: Fire Thibs!!!



At some point people are gonna realize that this isn't a coach problem. You traded for a wing that hasn't played defense in years and a really bad defensive C. So expect us to be trash defensively and be hovering around .500 for most of the year. We need to be extremely good on offense every night to offset any deficiency we have on defense to be a championship contender which I don't see happening realistically.

So who would you have realistically wanted? Say you knew Randle was leaving at the season’s end, and you risk losing him for nothing, what should they have done? And with the war chest of picks, who should they have traded for? Supplementary pieces? A star? I’m just curious as to what they should have done with Randle’s expiring (he wanted the max or close to it coming off shoulder surgery) and with the picks?

Randle never wanted to leave. We should've ran it back and wait until Giannis asks out.

[The KnicksFix]

A Thibs coached team is like a fish out of water without an elite rim protector.

We've had a top 5 defense 1 time in his 5 years, we've been 3, 10, 19, 11 and 20 (now). Last season Mitch had a 118.7 DRTG when he was on the court, we were horrible defensively against teams that could shoot which is why the Pacers gave us so much trouble all throughout the season.


Today's game wasn't rim protection, it was giving up the most threes the Jazz have hit since 2022. A shocking number of them were on 1 pass off a screen because of how we defend screens. That keeps happening to us because Tom refuses to switch, it's why random bigs the last couple years would have career games against us from three. Tonight we were asking a 6'4" and 6'7" guys to go over a screen and then try and close out on a 7 footer who is one of the best catch and shoot 3 point shooters in the league. You have to switch against that, you live with them hitting Kessler on the roll and him making plays, or letting them get shots at the rim and trying to force them into long 2s

Our coach has the team selling out the 3 to protect the paint. We have a similar roster makeup as the Rockets, yet they are good defensively because they switch and they also put their center on the worst shooter when they can. At the most fundamental level we guard every team the same regardless of what they do well.

Sengun has been actually a damn good rim protector this year and is contesting a bunch of shots down there. KAT hasn't been good at protecting the rim at all. I guarantee if KAT was on this level we would be way better.

Sengun’s offensive game is nowhere near KAT’s…

[Chanel Bomber]

I don't care about his FG% if he's not making high volume threes on good efficiency and not getting to the line. He shot 33% from three over that stretch, we didn't trade for him to be a poor man's DeMar DeRozan, we got him to be an elite 3 point shooter and defender, he's been neither.

And I will be very harsh with him considering what it took to get him and how thirsty he was to be here.

He's never been an elite 3 pt shooter tho. Great from the corners but only shot over 39% once in his career and he never was a high volume guy in PHX either. Never like +2 3pt made until he got to Brooklyn and then he became more of a league avg shooter with higher volume.

I thought he was turning the corner defensively recently. So much more impact but today they energy just wasn't there all around.

I think the trade was made because he was a connector type piece. Obviously the nova connection played a part. But if you were just looking for 3pt shooting and ok defense Cam Johnson probably would have been better.

What Mikal brings is more secondary playmaker and in theory higher level defender.

Also his contract played a part too since we basically didn't have to trade any rotation player to acquire so the contract fit into the new CBA.

Also his durability is a factor. Like Paul George is a better player but he's not on the court anymore for a lot of games. In a league where durability is a concern for nearly every team. Bridges can be counted on.

So yes in a silo I dont think he individually will live up to the trade value. It's our team success that will determine if it was a good trade or not.

There were only 14 guys last season that made 220 threes on 37% or better, he was on par with Michael Porter and Buddy Hield as a shoot last season, he was elite. You don't give up the type of package we did for the production he's giving, it doesn't matter what the nova connection is we've seen that with Donte that doesn't mean as much as people think.

We're getting neither good defense or 3 point shooting, the middies are borderline pointless since he doesn't get to the line or to the rim. He's shooting 30% from three right now, we're quickly approaching a point where guys are going to give soft closeouts on him and just play him for the middie if he's not in the corner because he's not going to take it to the rim either.

He has been objectively bad, he's shooting worse now than he did his rookie season. It's not harsh at all to expect a lot more from him, the guy was traded for a superstar package, and he can't even hit 20ppg.

If the Knicks reach the Finals and Mikal makes a significative contribution, the trade will be vindicated no matter the cost.

But if the first 16 games of the season are a preview of what's to come with Mikal, and if the Knicks never reach contention, it will be the worst trade since the SGA trade, the Billy King trade and the Harden trade. That's the company. The long-term repercussions could be devastating. Perhaps even worse considering who we traded those picks to.

Hopefully Mikal steps up his defense and he fixes his 3-point shot. It's still early. But it's silly if he's turned into a 30% shooter with us. It's silly that in a lineup full of efficient scorers he's currently the class clown with a 94 league-adjusted TS.

It's a catastrophic return on investment so far, so all we can do is hope he's still finding his flow and that he'll step up. Otherwise we're screwed.

[3toheadmelo]

We've had a top 5 defense 1 time in his 5 years, we've been 3, 10, 19, 11 and 20 (now). Last season Mitch had a 118.7 DRTG when he was on the court, we were horrible defensively against teams that could shoot which is why the Pacers gave us so much trouble all throughout the season.


Today's game wasn't rim protection, it was giving up the most threes the Jazz have hit since 2022. A shocking number of them were on 1 pass off a screen because of how we defend screens. That keeps happening to us because Tom refuses to switch, it's why random bigs the last couple years would have career games against us from three. Tonight we were asking a 6'4" and 6'7" guys to go over a screen and then try and close out on a 7 footer who is one of the best catch and shoot 3 point shooters in the league. You have to switch against that, you live with them hitting Kessler on the roll and him making plays, or letting them get shots at the rim and trying to force them into long 2s

Our coach has the team selling out the 3 to protect the paint. We have a similar roster makeup as the Rockets, yet they are good defensively because they switch and they also put their center on the worst shooter when they can. At the most fundamental level we guard every team the same regardless of what they do well.

Sengun has been actually a damn good rim protector this year and is contesting a bunch of shots down there. KAT hasn't been good at protecting the rim at all. I guarantee if KAT was on this level we would be way better.

Sengun’s offensive game is nowhere near KAT’s…

He's not that far off and he's 5x the rim protector KAT is. That's why the rockets are much better this year. He made major improvemens as a rim protector. And he actually put up 25/15/4 against KAT not too long ago

[The KnicksFix]

He shot 3/15 today tho, and 1/7 from 3. He doesn’t look great offensively, but defensively there are many times he just looks lost.

Against the Jazz he sucked, but he was pretty solid in the 6 games leading up to the Jazz game.

Let's see how he does the next couple of games. I really want to give Mikal the benefit of the doubt. The 3/15 and 1/7 might have been a fluke.

I hope so man, he’s got to round into form, we are already 20% thru the season, and he is getting waxed defensively every night. Additionally he doesn’t seem to play with a desperation or urgency. He looks slow defensively and his shot is simply not there. I think deuce is better suited in the starting lineup, because unless Thibs’ doesn’t change his defensive schemes, Mikal will continue to be exposed.

[3toheadmelo]

Trade Bridges for Ingram

Should've traded for Ingram in the first place. If Mikal isn't gonna play defense then we should've went all out on a wing that can score on all 3 levels and playmake. Overpaid for Bridges like he was on Ingram's level smh.

Brandon Ingram? You want BI???
I just saw that dood miss two free throws in the game on Friday against the dubs, then misses a corner three to tie the game because he dribbled the ball and tried to spot up instead of just catch and shoot. BI is NOT the answer on offense or defense man.

He's averaging 23 PPG and 5.4 APG. He's way better than whatever we overpaid Mikal for. But he wasn't my #1 option. We should've just ran it back and waited for Giannis to ask out.

[The KnicksFix]

Sengun has been actually a damn good rim protector this year and is contesting a bunch of shots down there. KAT hasn't been good at protecting the rim at all. I guarantee if KAT was on this level we would be way better.

Sengun’s offensive game is nowhere near KAT’s…

He's not that far off and he's 5x the rim protector KAT is. That's why the rockets are much better this year. He made major improvemens as a rim protector. And he actually put up 25/15/4 against KAT not too long ago

I understand all of this yes, but the rockets weren’t trading Sengun. Not for Randle at least. Maybe for the picks. But in order to get Sengun, that means you keep Randle and Donte. Right? In that scenario, you still lose a PF at the end of the season

[The KnicksFix]

Should've traded for Ingram in the first place. If Mikal isn't gonna play defense then we should've went all out on a wing that can score on all 3 levels and playmake. Overpaid for Bridges like he was on Ingram's level smh.

Brandon Ingram? You want BI???
I just saw that dood miss two free throws in the game on Friday against the dubs, then misses a corner three to tie the game because he dribbled the ball and tried to spot up instead of just catch and shoot. BI is NOT the answer on offense or defense man.

He's averaging 23 PPG and 5.4 APG. He's way better than whatever we overpaid Mikal for. But he wasn't my #1 option. We should've just ran it back and waited for Giannis to ask out.

Ehhh as much as I agree with you on Giannis, I really dont think that dood is leaving Milwaukee. Every year he says something new to put pressure on the bucks, and they do it. The one time they dont listen to him, (firing Kidd, hiring bud) they win a ring. But they’ve acquiesced to him repeatedly, I just dont think that dood would have left the bucks. And we can’t keep continuing to wait on chasing the pipe dream of a player that MIGHT want to come to the Knicks. We did that for 2 decades. Brunson was in his prime, so we had to give a a team now.

[3toheadmelo]

Sengun’s offensive game is nowhere near KAT’s…

He's not that far off and he's 5x the rim protector KAT is. That's why the rockets are much better this year. He made major improvemens as a rim protector. And he actually put up 25/15/4 against KAT not too long ago

I understand all of this yes, but the rockets weren’t trading Sengun. Not for Randle at least. Maybe for the picks. But in order to get Sengun, that means you keep Randle and Donte. Right? In that scenario, you still lose a PF at the end of the season

Huh? I never said we could trade for Sengun. You must not be following the convo. Nodope said they've been hiding Sengun on their worst shooter so we should be doing the same with KAT but that's not the reality. Sengun has been a top rim protector unlike KAT, that's why they're a much improved team. KAT is just really bad on that end which is one of the reasons why we're awful defensively.

[3toheadmelo]

Brandon Ingram? You want BI???
I just saw that dood miss two free throws in the game on Friday against the dubs, then misses a corner three to tie the game because he dribbled the ball and tried to spot up instead of just catch and shoot. BI is NOT the answer on offense or defense man.

He's averaging 23 PPG and 5.4 APG. He's way better than whatever we overpaid Mikal for. But he wasn't my #1 option. We should've just ran it back and waited for Giannis to ask out.

Ehhh as much as I agree with you on Giannis, I really dont think that dood is leaving Milwaukee. Every year he says something new to put pressure on the bucks, and they do it. The one time they dont listen to him, (firing Kidd, hiring bud) they win a ring. But they’ve acquiesced to him repeatedly, I just dont think that dood would have left the bucks. And we can’t keep continuing to wait on chasing the pipe dream of a player that MIGHT want to come to the Knicks. We did that for 2 decades. Brunson was in his prime, so we had to give a a team now.

We already had a team with Brunson. We were dominating and beating actual contenders until Randle and OG got hurt last season. The logical thing was to run it back and wait for Giannis or some other big time star to ask out. We're ruining Brunson's prime with the trades we made.

[3toheadmelo]

I'll let you guys argue about Thibs now. I said my piece.

[The KnicksFix]

He's averaging 23 PPG and 5.4 APG. He's way better than whatever we overpaid Mikal for. But he wasn't my #1 option. We should've just ran it back and waited for Giannis to ask out.

Ehhh as much as I agree with you on Giannis, I really dont think that dood is leaving Milwaukee. Every year he says something new to put pressure on the bucks, and they do it. The one time they dont listen to him, (firing Kidd, hiring bud) they win a ring. But they’ve acquiesced to him repeatedly, I just dont think that dood would have left the bucks. And we can’t keep continuing to wait on chasing the pipe dream of a player that MIGHT want to come to the Knicks. We did that for 2 decades. Brunson was in his prime, so we had to give a a team now.

We already had a team with Brunson. We were dominating and beating actual contenders until Randle and OG got hurt last season. The logical thing was to run it back and wait for Giannis or some other big time star to ask out. We're ruining Brunson's prime with the trades we made.

I mean we quite literally couldn’t. Ihart left, not like we allowed him to, we gave him the max we could have under the CBA. That team from last year was not coming back. The team that ended the Philly series was JB, Donte, hart, OG, ihart… ihart left on his own. Leaving us a hole to fill at the 5, and say you plug that with Julius, would you have still paid Julius the max at the end of the year or close to it? Idunno man, you play the cards you’re dealt, and ihart leaving caused a trickle down effect where there was a hole to plug at 5, Leon killed two birds with one stone getting KAT, i still think getting KAT was the right move, but getting Mikal wasn’t. However one trade doesn’t happen without the other, Because we got Mikal, Donte was expendable (at least to the Knicks organization)

Long story short, we were dealt a sh***y hand

[3toheadmelo]

Ehhh as much as I agree with you on Giannis, I really dont think that dood is leaving Milwaukee. Every year he says something new to put pressure on the bucks, and they do it. The one time they dont listen to him, (firing Kidd, hiring bud) they win a ring. But they’ve acquiesced to him repeatedly, I just dont think that dood would have left the bucks. And we can’t keep continuing to wait on chasing the pipe dream of a player that MIGHT want to come to the Knicks. We did that for 2 decades. Brunson was in his prime, so we had to give a a team now.

We already had a team with Brunson. We were dominating and beating actual contenders until Randle and OG got hurt last season. The logical thing was to run it back and wait for Giannis or some other big time star to ask out. We're ruining Brunson's prime with the trades we made.

I mean we quite literally couldn’t. Ihart left, not like we allowed him to, we gave him the max we could have under the CBA. That team from last year was not coming back. The team that ended the Philly series was JB, Donte, hart, OG, ihart… ihart left on his own. Leaving us a hole to fill at the 5, and say you plug that with Julius, would you have still paid Julius the max at the end of the year or close to it? Idunno man, you play the cards you’re dealt, and ihart leaving caused a trickle down effect where there was a hole to plug at 5, Leon killed two birds with one stone getting KAT, i still think getting KAT was the right move, but getting Mikal wasn’t. However one trade doesn’t happen without the other, Because we got Mikal, Donte was expendable (at least to the Knicks organization)

Long story short, we were dealt a sh***y hand

Mitch/Precious would be coming back and we would still have Donte and an extra 1st round pick. Randle also isn't getting the max from anyone so that point is moot. He also had a player option so he likely would've taken that as well before free agency. The KAT and Mikal trades were both highly risky for our defense and now we're seeing how it ruined our identity. It is what it is. This is what you guys wanted
Anyways when when we start beating actual good teams then I'll be more optimistic. Until then, it's a bad look.

[Reign23]

Bridges is pure ass.

if we don't make a finales with this core, this has the potential to go down as one of the worst trades in franchise history.
still early, but so far it looks terrible.

[The KnicksFix]

We already had a team with Brunson. We were dominating and beating actual contenders until Randle and OG got hurt last season. The logical thing was to run it back and wait for Giannis or some other big time star to ask out. We're ruining Brunson's prime with the trades we made.

I mean we quite literally couldn’t. Ihart left, not like we allowed him to, we gave him the max we could have under the CBA. That team from last year was not coming back. The team that ended the Philly series was JB, Donte, hart, OG, ihart… ihart left on his own. Leaving us a hole to fill at the 5, and say you plug that with Julius, would you have still paid Julius the max at the end of the year or close to it? Idunno man, you play the cards you’re dealt, and ihart leaving caused a trickle down effect where there was a hole to plug at 5, Leon killed two birds with one stone getting KAT, i still think getting KAT was the right move, but getting Mikal wasn’t. However one trade doesn’t happen without the other, Because we got Mikal, Donte was expendable (at least to the Knicks organization)

Long story short, we were dealt a sh***y hand

Mitch/Precious would be coming back and we would still have Donte and an extra 1st round pick. Randle also isn't getting the max from anyone so that point is moot. He also had a player option so he likely would've taken that as well before free agency. The KAT and Mikal trades were both highly risky for our defense and now we're seeing how it ruined our identity. It is what it is. This is what you guys wanted
Anyways when when we start beating actual good teams then I'll be more optimistic. Until then, it's a bad look.

Wait so if I get this right. You wanted to run it back with Mitch at center? He was not going to be ready until January. Which means we would have started precious. But realistically. Would a starting lineup of jb, Donte, Julius, og and precious been enough to beat the Celtics? I don’t see it man.
Also Randle’s player option was not picked up all of last season. He was going to opt out. If he wanted the player option he would have signed it when he had it. The bottom line is he wanted more than what he was valued at.
The chemistry of the team is totally different, but I do think starting precious makes a significant help to our defense.