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OT: Twitter Thread on 3 Decades of Russian & Mafia Relationships with Trump

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Re: OT: Twitter Thread on 3 Decades of Russian & Mafia Relationships with Trump 

Post#1201 » by duetta » Thu Oct 4, 2018 2:36 pm

cgmw wrote:I'm still lost on how the new 2 would be appointed by liberals. I suppose you're saying the expansion should happen while Dems control the House & Senate? I mean, what's stopping Republicans from expanding it to 11, 15, 101 or 1001 lifetime appointments right now while they control both houses?


The first two appointments would happen once we have a Democratic Senate, House, and President. There's nothing to stop the Republicans from adding two more Justices - and then us adding an additional two later, and so forth - except perhaps the long-term demographic tilt of the country, which makes it increasingly less likely that Republicans will be able to deploy the same old loathsome Southern Strategy playbook and supply-side voodoo and win elections going forward.

But there is inherent risk in anything you do. There is risk in allowing a reactionary court to allow religious conservatives to impose their 100% subjective ideology on a freethinking people. There is risk in allowing oligarchs to buy our politicians as if they were streetwalkers selling their wares.

There is risk everywhere.

The best that you could hope for is that at the end of a period of moderate political instability, we can come to a new understanding as to why the Courts need to remain nonpartisan, as much as it is humanly possible.
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Re: OT: Twitter Thread on 3 Decades of Russian & Mafia Relationships with Trump 

Post#1202 » by thebuzzardman » Thu Oct 4, 2018 2:44 pm

cgmw wrote:
thebuzzardman wrote:
cgmw wrote:Sorry if this is a dumb question, but how would expanding to 11 stop one party from devious tactics to control at least 6, if not more?

It's incredible that your post is the first time I've heard somebody describe the very obvious truth about Kavanaugh that he's blatantly a party shill and "Republican operative" as you put it.

Having blatant party politics at the level of the Supreme Court certainly seems like the result of a big fat flaw in the Founding Fathers' plans for checks and balances. I lived in DC for a long time, and it is impossible for me to tell the difference culturally between Brett Kavanaugh the Supreme Court justice and, say, any two-bit shill on the Hill loyal to his party because that's his main social/cultural identification in life. Kavanaugh very clearly identifies with the Senate Judiciary Committe (and vice versa) because, for all intents and purposes, he's one of them. A lifelong politician whose allegiance is to the party that got him into power and not the underlying principles (if we're talking about a Judge) or voters (if we're talking about a politician).

I'm sure Gorsuch and others before him have also been political shills, but it's truly jarring to see how Kavanaugh and the Republicans aren't making any attempts to hide it.


There's no stopping controlling "6" out of 11, but the assumption is by appointing 2 new "liberal/left" judges, if the current makeup is 5/4 conservative/liberal, then the tilt is now 5/6.

Of course, then the conservatives could come in and make the number 13. Or 15. There isn't any limit.

What stops this from happening is "traditional norms".

But those got knocked off course (by one line of thinking) when McConnell pulled that stunt and denied Obama his appointment for 2 years. Technically allowed. But no one had done it, because bad practice against "norms". But it's going down a slippery slope. You can even think of what the democrats did to Kavanaugh, if you are inclined to think of it as "purely politics" (as opposed to an exposure of an unfit, partisan judge) as another loosening of the "democratic norm" guardrails, but inspired by the conservatives first move against Obama. And then, if Kananaugh gets rammed through, I'd think those inclinations against "judge stacking" would go out the window. Which would then lead the conservatives to some other erosion of a democratic norm. And so on. But it might be time for the Dems to make that move, if Kavanaugh is appointed.

FDR was being blocked by a very conservative court and he wanted to expand the # of justices but his OWN PARTY blocked him for the chain of events it would likely set off.

The debate "are we already there"

I'm still lost on how the new 2 would be appointed by liberals. I suppose you're saying the expansion should happen while Dems control the House & Senate? I mean, what's stopping Republicans from expanding it to 11, 15, 101 or 1001 lifetime appointments right now while they control both houses?

Anyway, my take is that 24% of the American voting population wasn't ready for the double gut-shot of a black president followed by legal gay marriage; while 25% of the American voting population was cool with it but complacent. It's also just a fact of modern politics that the Republican Party is where you want to be if you're a person who wants to keep the powerful powerful by nearly any means. And when I say "powerful" I mean more than just financially. It should come as no surprise that the Republican Party is the one resorting to dirty tricks and gerrymandering to keep cultural power in the hands of (straight Christian) white people.

The interesting part for our Democracy now will be whether an opposition party made of constituent cultural parts can overcome the focused, concentrated might of a (straight Christian) white people's party. It's hard to see how Dems could maintain cultural sincerity to a diverse and just electorate while also resorting to hard-line dirty tricks. I mean, they COULD but it's very likely that such tricks would have the perverse effect of turning off their slim 25% electorate.

More likely is that whatever dirty-trick safeguards Republicans put in place will be eroded over time by the inevitable statistical decline of white people in America. Ultimately social causes like protecting the rights of white men accused of rape have NO chance of longterm survival. I mean unless the Republican strategy is to kill the physical Earth before (straight Christian) white people lose power?

Anyway, I have enjoyed living abroad and think I'll keep it up a while.


Bolded - nothing stopping them, which is why no one really wants to go down this ignorant path, but it "could" be argued that conservatives started down the path with denying Obama for 2 years a supreme court justice appointment. It was discussed, at that time, that this could inject a level of politics into the appointments not yet seen (much more than already present). Usually grownups know there is some stuff they technically CAN do, but they abstain because of the potential really bad repercussions.

At a minimum, a thing I bring up with conservative friends around the Kavanaugh things is "You think this is dirty politics? It just might be nothing more than that. Perhaps Mitch and co should have considered that before blocking Obama for 2+ years." This is why people take the erosion of norms seriously. It's slow, then a quick slide into real sh*tshow territory.
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Re: OT: Twitter Thread on 3 Decades of Russian & Mafia Relationships with Trump 

Post#1203 » by JohnStarksTheDunk » Thu Oct 4, 2018 3:09 pm

thebuzzardman wrote:
Bolded - nothing stopping them, which is why no one really wants to go down this ignorant path, but it "could" be argued that conservatives started down the path with denying Obama for 2 years a supreme court justice appointment. It was discussed, at that time, that this could inject a level of politics into the appointments not yet seen (much more than already present). Usually grownups know there is some stuff they technically CAN do, but they abstain because of the potential really bad repercussions.

At a minimum, a thing I bring up with conservative friends around the Kavanaugh things is "You think this is dirty politics? It just might be nothing more than that. Perhaps Mitch and co should have considered that before blocking Obama for 2+ years." This is why people take the erosion of norms seriously. It's slow, then a quick slide into real sh*tshow territory.


Exactly. It could be argued that Republicans started this, but that's a pointless argument, because (a) that message will never reach the great many conservatives who only get their news from Trump, Fox News, etc. anyway, and (b) it only goads the GOP into more retaliation. Does anyone honestly think that Republicans would respond with "yeah, I guess we deserved that; now we're even" ??? They've cranked up the rhetoric already regarding the Ford accusations, attempting to paint Democrats as corrupt obstructionists (which is both ironic and hypocritical), and they would assuredly take this to new heights, while also stooping to new lows in their policy actions.

Attempting to expand the number of SC justices to "balance out the courts" is a bad idea, unless Democrats are ultimately willing to play just as dirty as Republicans. And if they are, then we end up with two parties that are morally bankrupt instead of one, which doesn't make this country any better.

The only catch is if we, by 2020 or 2022, eventually get to a place where there simply aren't enough Republican votes to do anything about it and the GOP has officially died out. But this seems unlikely in the near term. There is simply too much money still pouring into the Republican party, or some zombie version of it, and too many naive/uneducated voters who can be catered to through religion, racism, hatred, and fear. Yes, demographics are gradually changing, but not nearly fast enough.
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Re: OT: Twitter Thread on 3 Decades of Russian & Mafia Relationships with Trump 

Post#1204 » by j4remi » Thu Oct 4, 2018 3:42 pm

duetta wrote:The idea of expanding the Court to 11 Justices has become extremely popular on the activist left, and McConnell is the one is making it so - by making this process so obviously rigged.

When FDR tried this, there had no attempts to rig the court by Republicans / conservatives in previous Administrations; however, when the next Democratic President, Majority Leader, and Speaker of the House are urged to do this, there will have been - and we will have all been witnesses to the extraordinary extent to which Republicans have gone to deny, first, a center-left President who won the popular vote and electoral college in two consecutive elections, his third fully-qualified Justice (over 8 years), but also rig the process so that a former GOP operative with red flags could become the swing vote on the Court.

IMHO, it's only going to take one alarming decision from this Court to spur a majority of the voting public into action on this issue. I don't know whether Schumer has the stones to lead on this issue - but if enough pressure can be brought to bear on him, he will certainly follow.

I don't expect that we will take back the Senate until 2020 - but once we have the Presidency, the House, and the Senate, we will be able to move forward on this.


It's also worth exploring what Mitch and co. did at all levels of the court for Obama appointments. They blocked and obstructed on every level and Trump has been frontloading and rushing through appointees. The Republicans didn't just pack the Supreme Court, they're in the process of packing every level of the courts (I swear I heard 1 in 7 judges in our court of appeals either is or will be a Trump appointee but don't hold me to that one).
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Re: OT: Twitter Thread on 3 Decades of Russian & Mafia Relationships with Trump 

Post#1205 » by GONYK » Thu Oct 4, 2018 3:47 pm

Read on Twitter


Read on Twitter


Flake and Collins are "yes" on Kavanaugh
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Re: OT: Twitter Thread on 3 Decades of Russian & Mafia Relationships with Trump 

Post#1206 » by JohnStarksTheDunk » Thu Oct 4, 2018 3:58 pm

GONYK wrote:
Read on Twitter


Read on Twitter


Flake and Collins are "yes" on Kavanaugh


Yup. The investigation gave them the cover they needed.

Feinstein is quoted as saying "I can't talk about the detail because this remains a confidential part of the background report... The most notable part of this report is what's not in it." She is obviously alluding to the fact that several leads and witnesses were not examined, but she's also inadvertently confirming that there's nothing new or damning in here that would prevent Collins, Murkowski, or Flake from voting "yes".
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Re: OT: Twitter Thread on 3 Decades of Russian & Mafia Relationships with Trump 

Post#1207 » by Dave DaButcher » Thu Oct 4, 2018 6:02 pm

Hi all, with the Kavanaugh saga approaching its conclusion, after having riled up the bases of both parties, I thought it would be an opportune time to turn again to the midterms, which are now less than 5 weeks away.

With that in mind, here is a solid summary of the current state of the 10 Senate races involving the most at-risk incumbents. The Democrats need to win 9 of the 12 races that include these 10 plus the two open seats in play (AZ and TN) to regain control.

http://www.rollcall.com/news/politics/one-month-10-vulnerable-senators
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Re: OT: Twitter Thread on 3 Decades of Russian & Mafia Relationships with Trump 

Post#1208 » by thebuzzardman » Thu Oct 4, 2018 6:10 pm

JohnStarksTheDunk wrote:
thebuzzardman wrote:
Bolded - nothing stopping them, which is why no one really wants to go down this ignorant path, but it "could" be argued that conservatives started down the path with denying Obama for 2 years a supreme court justice appointment. It was discussed, at that time, that this could inject a level of politics into the appointments not yet seen (much more than already present). Usually grownups know there is some stuff they technically CAN do, but they abstain because of the potential really bad repercussions.

At a minimum, a thing I bring up with conservative friends around the Kavanaugh things is "You think this is dirty politics? It just might be nothing more than that. Perhaps Mitch and co should have considered that before blocking Obama for 2+ years." This is why people take the erosion of norms seriously. It's slow, then a quick slide into real sh*tshow territory.


Exactly. It could be argued that Republicans started this, but that's a pointless argument, because (a) that message will never reach the great many conservatives who only get their news from Trump, Fox News, etc. anyway, and (b) it only goads the GOP into more retaliation. Does anyone honestly think that Republicans would respond with "yeah, I guess we deserved that; now we're even" ??? They've cranked up the rhetoric already regarding the Ford accusations, attempting to paint Democrats as corrupt obstructionists (which is both ironic and hypocritical), and they would assuredly take this to new heights, while also stooping to new lows in their policy actions.

Attempting to expand the number of SC justices to "balance out the courts" is a bad idea, unless Democrats are ultimately willing to play just as dirty as Republicans. And if they are, then we end up with two parties that are morally bankrupt instead of one, which doesn't make this country any better.

The only catch is if we, by 2020 or 2022, eventually get to a place where there simply aren't enough Republican votes to do anything about it and the GOP has officially died out. But this seems unlikely in the near term. There is simply too much money still pouring into the Republican party, or some zombie version of it, and too many naive/uneducated voters who can be catered to through religion, racism, hatred, and fear. Yes, demographics are gradually changing, but not nearly fast enough.


I'm in agreement. It's that there's always been a hesitation to meet bad behavior with bad behavior, the thought being that it will spiral out of control in one upping and retaliation nearly without end. Which is why people who were paying attention were pissed that McConnell took the step he did with Obama. It sends a dangerous precedent.

The question is whether we, as a nation, are already there etc. I don't know. I could see the arguments for either side. I don't have a strong opinion either way what the course should/could be, big picture.

It goes without saying I think the republicans were turds here. I'm just laying out the thought processes that I've read that inform the decision to engage in the same behavior or to take a loss politically for the good of the country - long term/big picture. Not here to argue whether or not that time is now, what has already happened is a line, the conservatives are bat sh*t crazy etc. It's not that I don't care, but can't decide. Escalation by the Dems in 2020 or 22 would be a huge step in a weird way for this country, but on the other hand, might be time.
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Re: OT: Twitter Thread on 3 Decades of Russian & Mafia Relationships with Trump 

Post#1209 » by thebuzzardman » Thu Oct 4, 2018 6:13 pm

duetta wrote:
cgmw wrote:I'm still lost on how the new 2 would be appointed by liberals. I suppose you're saying the expansion should happen while Dems control the House & Senate? I mean, what's stopping Republicans from expanding it to 11, 15, 101 or 1001 lifetime appointments right now while they control both houses?


The first two appointments would happen once we have a Democratic Senate, House, and President. There's nothing to stop the Republicans from adding two more Justices - and then us adding an additional two later, and so forth - except perhaps the long-term demographic tilt of the country, which makes it increasingly less likely that Republicans will be able to deploy the same old loathsome Southern Strategy playbook and supply-side voodoo and win elections going forward.

But there is inherent risk in anything you do. There is risk in allowing a reactionary court to allow religious conservatives to impose their 100% subjective ideology on a freethinking people. There is risk in allowing oligarchs to buy our politicians as if they were streetwalkers selling their wares.

There is risk everywhere.

The best that you could hope for is that at the end of a period of moderate political instability, we can come to a new understanding as to why the Courts need to remain nonpartisan, as much as it is humanly possible.


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Re: OT: Twitter Thread on 3 Decades of Russian & Mafia Relationships with Trump 

Post#1210 » by HarthorneWingo » Thu Oct 4, 2018 6:43 pm

JohnStarksTheDunk wrote:
HarthorneWingo wrote:
GONYK wrote:McConnell wouldn't have pushed for cloture if they didn't


One would think. It'll be very disappointing is he's confirmed.


Unless there is something truly damning in the FBI's findings, the investigation has provided cover for Collins, Murkowski, and Flake to vote YES. Which was always the point. We need to remember that these three senators don't want to vote against their party, so they welcome the excuse to say "the FBI looked into it and didn't find anything new."

In the event that the FBI investigation uncovered a bombshell, they likewise would have had the cover to vote NO. But this was unlikely to happen anyway, because the scope was on assault allegations, not whether or not Kavanaugh lied to Congress during hearings about his drinking, his past career, or anything else. It's left up to the Senate to draw those conclusions, and we already know that Democrats will try to do so, while Republicans will not. If the FBI's findings don't leak, we won't have the opportunity to see what they found, so it will be left up to the White House and Congress to provide their own interpretations, which will undoubtedly be primarily partisan spin.

The FBI only interviewed six people. Not Kavanaugh, not Ford, not Ford's husband who has stated that she told him specifically about Kavanaugh back in 2012, not Ford's psychiatrist, not any of the several witnesses and friends that Ramirez has referred to the FBI, not any other character witnesses from Kavanaugh's time at Yale.

They only interviewed Mark Judge, Patrick Smyth (PJ), Ford's high school friend Leland Keyser, Tim Gaudette (Timmy), Chris Garrett (Squi), and Ramirez. According to Ford, none of PJ, Keyser, Timmy, or Squi were in the room when the assault took place, so there is no reason for any of them to remember this specific pre-gaming gathering from 35 years ago, and indeed PJ and Keyser have already publicly stated that they don't remember this night. Squi has acknowledged that he dated Ford briefly, so he could potentially confirm that Kavanaugh had met Ford through him, but even that doesn't say anything about the alleged assault. Ramirez has already shared her story publicly and it's doubtful she has anything new -- the only thing that her interview would show is that she believes her story enough to risk penalty for lying to the FBI, and it's not a coincidence that others who could refute her (specifically Kavanaugh) or confirm her were not interviewed and therefore not subject to the same standards of truth. And then there is Judge, a well-documented alcoholic, who could very reasonably have no memory of that night because he was far too drunk.

So it basically comes down to whether Judge shared anything truly damning, or whether Collins and Murkowski feel that the Ramirez statements are credible enough to risk voting NO. I'm not putting my money on either, especially given that the track record for these two senators, as well as Flake, isn't particularly encouraging. From what we currently know, it's still more likely than not that Kavanaugh will be confirmed.


The "investigation" was set up for failure. What a sham.
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Re: OT: Twitter Thread on 3 Decades of Russian & Mafia Relationships with Trump 

Post#1211 » by HarthorneWingo » Fri Oct 5, 2018 12:50 am

Senator Steve Daines (R-Montana) will not be at the final vote Saturday because he'll be walking his daughter "down the aisle" at her wedding, in Montana, that day. What a world.
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Re: OT: Twitter Thread on 3 Decades of Russian & Mafia Relationships with Trump 

Post#1212 » by Rich Rane » Fri Oct 5, 2018 12:58 am

HarthorneWingo wrote:Senator Steve Daines (R-Montana) will not be at the final vote Saturday because he'll be walking his daughter "down the aisle" at her wedding, in Montana, that day. What a world.


Republicans most likely have the votes to not delay.
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Re: OT: Twitter Thread on 3 Decades of Russian & Mafia Relationships with Trump 

Post#1213 » by magnumt » Fri Oct 5, 2018 1:01 am

HarthorneWingo wrote:Senator Steve Daines (R-Montana) will not be at the final vote Saturday because he'll be walking his daughter "down the aisle" at her wedding, in Montana, that day. What a world.


I'm actually proud of him to put his family first.

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Re: OT: Twitter Thread on 3 Decades of Russian & Mafia Relationships with Trump 

Post#1214 » by HarthorneWingo » Fri Oct 5, 2018 2:23 am

magnumt wrote:
HarthorneWingo wrote:Senator Steve Daines (R-Montana) will not be at the final vote Saturday because he'll be walking his daughter "down the aisle" at her wedding, in Montana, that day. What a world.


I'm actually proud of him to put his family first.

--Mags :beer:


Absolutely. But the confluence of the events is just too funny.
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Re: OT: Twitter Thread on 3 Decades of Russian & Mafia Relationships with Trump 

Post#1215 » by GONYK » Fri Oct 5, 2018 8:01 pm

Just as I thought, Manchin is voting for Kavanaugh

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Re: OT: Twitter Thread on 3 Decades of Russian & Mafia Relationships with Trump 

Post#1216 » by HarthorneWingo » Fri Oct 5, 2018 8:57 pm

I wonder how much money flowed into Sue Collins’s campaign coffers?


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Re: OT: Twitter Thread on 3 Decades of Russian & Mafia Relationships with Trump 

Post#1217 » by duetta » Fri Oct 5, 2018 9:27 pm

Manchin is in a tough race. I guess that you have to expect it.

2021 will be our moment to set things right. Let's just hope Ruth Bader Ginsberg can hold out that long.
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Re: OT: Twitter Thread on 3 Decades of Russian & Mafia Relationships with Trump 

Post#1218 » by Pointgod » Fri Oct 5, 2018 9:50 pm

duetta wrote:Manchin is in a tough race. I guess that you have to expect it.

2021 will be our moment to set things right. Let's just hope Ruth Bader Ginsberg can hold out that long.


Machine just torpedoed what ever Democratic base he had. This was an idiotic vote. I guarantee he will lose now.
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Re: OT: Twitter Thread on 3 Decades of Russian & Mafia Relationships with Trump 

Post#1219 » by thebuzzardman » Fri Oct 5, 2018 10:10 pm

Pointgod wrote:
duetta wrote:Manchin is in a tough race. I guess that you have to expect it.

2021 will be our moment to set things right. Let's just hope Ruth Bader Ginsberg can hold out that long.


Machine just torpedoed what ever Democratic base he had. This was an idiotic vote. I guarantee he will lose now.


There are democrats in West Virginia? Who knew?
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Re: OT: Twitter Thread on 3 Decades of Russian & Mafia Relationships with Trump 

Post#1220 » by Pointgod » Fri Oct 5, 2018 10:25 pm

thebuzzardman wrote:
Pointgod wrote:
duetta wrote:Manchin is in a tough race. I guess that you have to expect it.

2021 will be our moment to set things right. Let's just hope Ruth Bader Ginsberg can hold out that long.


Machine just torpedoed what ever Democratic base he had. This was an idiotic vote. I guarantee he will lose now.


There are democrats in West Virginia? Who knew?


Apparently not Joe Manchin

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