Official MMA discussion thread pt 2: UFC 268 in MSG Usman vs Colby 2, Rose vs Zhang 2

HarthorneWingo · Post #1261 » by **HarthorneWingo** » Sat Oct 24, 2020 11:17 pm

Gaethje never even threatened. Khabib imposed his will on him and broke him quickly.

Khabib is the best P4P fighter in the UFC.

Watch on YouTube

Clyde_Style · Post #1262 » by **Clyde_Style** » Sun Oct 25, 2020 4:12 am

Khabib has the best mount of all time and that is basically all he needed to beat everyone in his path

Post #1263 » by **j4remi** » Sun Oct 25, 2020 1:34 pm

On reflection and rewatch, I can honestly say that Khabib will probably be my more frustrating GOAT argument ever since he really never got tested how I'd have liked to see. Wittman telling Gaethje "you need 8 more leg kicks" was almost as bad as Poirier getting told "keep trying to hit the switch, you've almost got it." I can't figure wtf these guys are gameplanning for...

Gaethje got taken down off the leg kick twice and expended a GANG of energy just avoiding the cage. He looked to counter with power instead of tact, a big reversal from his Ferguson fight. If you remember that one, Wittman had to tell him to take something off his punches in that one too. This time around that advice worked again but Khabib just had to wait for a damned leg kick to take him down.

The ground work was beautiful from Khabib. He uses his legs like a BJJ player but his upperbody force is either the best at LW or second to Kevin Lee. The triangle from full mount is filthy against elite competition although Gaethje really offered no resistance. I'll say this though...Khabib fought two guys with good guards. One was RDA and one was Tibau. He arguably lost to Tibau and won but only controlled position against RDA. Khabib avoided his biggest tests because the guys that would resist from the guard were Do Bronx and Ferguson.

That gets back to why I find Khabib so frustrating. His title fights have shown blemishes that you can piece together strategies out of. Iaquinta's jab made Khabib shoot from ugly distances. Gaethje showed that Khabib won't ever check a leg kick, but you can't overrely on them. Poirier and Conor showed that Khabib's striking is non-existent on his back foot. Without any elite ground players in his history, we never saw his grappling tactics tested with much other than the fundamentals of wrestling...hell, we didn't even see him tested by great top players.

Khabib's beaten 4 guys in his division's current top 15. RDA is the only opponent he's ever beaten to actually defend a UFC belt (one defense). Conor and RDA are the only UFC champs he ever fought. Usman's beaten 5 guys in his division's current top 10. RDA and Woodley mean that Usman's fought the same number of UFC champs. Woodley had 3 times the title defenses RDA had too.

And that's just an example of a current champ who has a comparable resume. Jon Jones first 3 title defenses were against former champs, so he passed Khabib up right away. 2 of the 3 had title defenses on their record, so he already doubled Khabib. Jones beat 6 UFC title holders; 3 times as many former UFC champs as Khabib plus a 2 division champ at Bellator. GSP beat 5 over the course of his career. Anderson Silva catches flack for strength of schedule but he beat 3; 1 more than Khabib. All three of those guys fought a more rounded set of skills in opponents too.

Clyde_Style · Post #1264 » by **Clyde_Style** » Sun Oct 25, 2020 5:09 pm

j4remi wrote:On reflection and rewatch, I can honestly say that Khabib will probably be my more frustrating GOAT argument ever since he really never got tested how I'd have liked to see. Wittman telling Gaethje "you need 8 more leg kicks" was almost as bad as Poirier getting told "keep trying to hit the switch, you've almost got it." I can't figure wtf these guys are gameplanning for...

Gaethje got taken down off the leg kick twice and expended a GANG of energy just avoiding the cage. He looked to counter with power instead of tact, a big reversal from his Ferguson fight. If you remember that one, Wittman had to tell him to take something off his punches in that one too. This time around that advice worked again but Khabib just had to wait for a damned leg kick to take him down.

The ground work was beautiful from Khabib. He uses his legs like a BJJ player but his upperbody force is either the best at LW or second to Kevin Lee. The triangle from full mount is filthy against elite competition although Gaethje really offered no resistance. I'll say this though...Khabib fought two guys with good guards. One was RDA and one was Tibau. He arguably lost to Tibau and won but only controlled position against RDA. Khabib avoided his biggest tests because the guys that would resist from the guard were Do Bronx and Ferguson.

That gets back to why I find Khabib so frustrating. His title fights have shown blemishes that you can piece together strategies out of. Iaquinta's jab made Khabib shoot from ugly distances. Gaethje showed that Khabib won't ever check a leg kick, but you can't overrely on them. Poirier and Conor showed that Khabib's striking is non-existent on his back foot. Without any elite ground players in his history, we never saw his grappling tactics tested with much other than the fundamentals of wrestling...hell, we didn't even see him tested by great top players.

Khabib's beaten 4 guys in his division's current top 15. RDA is the only opponent he's ever beaten to actually defend a UFC belt (one defense). Conor and RDA are the only UFC champs he ever fought. Usman's beaten 5 guys in his division's current top 10. RDA and Woodley mean that Usman's fought the same number of UFC champs. Woodley had 3 times the title defenses RDA had too.

And that's just an example of a current champ who has a comparable resume. Jon Jones first 3 title defenses were against former champs, so he passed Khabib up right away. 2 of the 3 had title defenses on their record, so he already doubled Khabib. Jones beat 6 UFC title holders; 3 times as many former UFC champs as Khabib plus a 2 division champ at Bellator. GSP beat 5 over the course of his career. Anderson Silva catches flack for strength of schedule but he beat 3; 1 more than Khabib. All three of those guys fought a more rounded set of skills in opponents too.

I thought Justin looked panicked from the opening bell. He was not the same fighter he had been in recent fights. It appeared to me he was experiencing a huge adrenalin dump. Justin's not the kind of guy who is rattled, but the mystique of Khabib affected even him.

But at the end of the day, it still boiled down to either executing a Buster Douglas kind of night with withering perfect, lethal jabs that could keep Khabib at a distance until you could take him out or landing a bomb. Since Khabib also landed a couple of shots it was not happening like that.

Basically, if Khabib takes you down, you're going to lose. I have never seen anyone hug bodies like Khabib does. He's half man, half octopus. His squeeze is the GOAT. You have to beat him on your feet and that wasn't going to happen.

islanders11040 · Post #1265 » by **islanders11040** » Sun Oct 25, 2020 5:46 pm

j4remi wrote:On reflection and rewatch, I can honestly say that Khabib will probably be my more frustrating GOAT argument ever since he really never got tested how I'd have liked to see. Wittman telling Gaethje "you need 8 more leg kicks" was almost as bad as Poirier getting told "keep trying to hit the switch, you've almost got it." I can't figure wtf these guys are gameplanning for...

Khabib losing maybe 1 round his whole mma career definitely helps his goat argument. Its absurd

Post #1266 » by **j4remi** » Sun Oct 25, 2020 6:05 pm

Clyde_Style wrote:I thought Justin looked panicked from the opening bell. He was not the same fighter he had been in recent fights. It appeared to me he was experiencing a huge adrenalin dump. Justin's not the kind of guy who is rattled, but the mystique of Khabib affected even him.

But at the end of the day, it still boiled down to either executing a Buster Douglas kind of night with withering perfect, lethal jabs that could keep Khabib at a distance until you could take him out or landing a bomb. Since Khabib also landed a couple of shots it was not happening like that.

Basically, if Khabib takes you down, you're going to lose. I have never seen anyone hug bodies like Khabib does. He's half man, half octopus. His squeeze is the GOAT. You have to beat him on your feet and that wasn't going to happen.

I agree on Gaethje looking panicked. It seemed like he knew that he didn't stand a chance on the ground, so he used a TON of energy to make sure the fight didn't get there. Then all of that exertion would go to waste because Khabib stepped in on his leg kicks. It was essentially the reverse of the strategy I'd been expecting. I thought Gaethje would punch on the move, not attempt to plant and counter.

From a peak of the sport perspective. Khabib's hitting Rousey/Mcgregor levels of owning these cats before even setting foot in the octagon. I say that as someone who thinks those two have become underrated after being a bit overrated in the zeitgeist of their peaks. I think Khabib, GSP and Jon Jones are the top three all-time. GSP and Jones stuck around long enough to have more holes in their game exposed and strategies developed; Khabib's leaving at the height of his mystique.

Khabib leaving at his peak right now could be a myth some day. His legacy is cemented.

I tend to believe that beat Khabib, you'd have to be able to take away his ease and comfort in grappling exchanges. That's why Tony Ferguson has always been the most unique threat, because El Cucuy's faced the closest thing to Khabib's top pressure and broken the guy off his back. The best guards that Khabib faced in his career are RDA and Gleison Tibau; he did a good job on RDA but didn't threaten to finish at all and Tibau had many claiming robbery.

GSP would be interesting for the fact that his own takedown threat combined with his ringcraft would stand the best chance to for Khabib to be on the defensive. Conor, Dustin and Al had brief moments of success by forcing Khabib on his back foot. None of them could sustain it (Conor did enough to win a round). Usman in a superfight would also be interesting for this too...his resume is really, really underrated.

HarthorneWingo · Post #1267 » by **HarthorneWingo** » Sun Oct 25, 2020 8:58 pm

Many experts also thought that Gaethje presented a unique threat due to his footwork, wrestling background, and striking skills. Turned out Khabib completely neutralized all of that with his own jabbing and great head movement/feinting combined with the threat of the takedown. Then what Khabib did to Justin in the 2nd round to end the fight was some serious high level BJJ.

Would I have loved to see Khabib and Tony fight? Absolutely and for the reasons Remi states. That said, I think the outcome is the same. And not one of Khabib's opponents ever had him in real trouble. I don't even think Khabib has ever bled in the ring?

RDA
Conor
Poirier
Gaethje
Barbosa

Khabib destroyed them all. Anyone think he'll eventually come back at 170?

GEOLINK · Post #1268 » by **GEOLINK** » Mon Oct 26, 2020 12:07 am

Justin literally said the fight would be over if Khabib ever takes him down. :lol:

Kind of embarrassing that Conor, 2 years out of MMA, showed a better ground game against Khabib than Justin.

HarthorneWingo · Post #1269 » by **HarthorneWingo** » Mon Oct 26, 2020 7:00 am

GEOLINK wrote:Justin literally said the fight would be over if Khabib ever takes him down.

Kind of embarrassing that Conor, 2 years out of MMA, showed a better ground game against Khabib than Justin.

By "better" you mean "delaying the inevitable choke out"?

waya · Post #1270 » by **waya** » Mon Oct 26, 2020 12:03 pm

islanders11040 wrote:
j4remi wrote:On reflection and rewatch, I can honestly say that Khabib will probably be my more frustrating GOAT argument ever since he really never got tested how I'd have liked to see. Wittman telling Gaethje "you need 8 more leg kicks" was almost as bad as Poirier getting told "keep trying to hit the switch, you've almost got it." I can't figure wtf these guys are gameplanning for...

Khabib losing maybe 1 round his whole mma career definitely helps his goat argument. Its absurd

This.

We've never even seen the guy hurt or in trouble. Never cut or bleeding. His career lowlights are getting his takedowns stuffed by a roided up Tibau and getting 50-43 scorecards against Al Iaquinta. Unbelievable.

Post #1271 » by **j4remi** » Mon Oct 26, 2020 1:38 pm

waya wrote:
islanders11040 wrote:
j4remi wrote:On reflection and rewatch, I can honestly say that Khabib will probably be my more frustrating GOAT argument ever since he really never got tested how I'd have liked to see. Wittman telling Gaethje "you need 8 more leg kicks" was almost as bad as Poirier getting told "keep trying to hit the switch, you've almost got it." I can't figure wtf these guys are gameplanning for...

Khabib losing maybe 1 round his whole mma career definitely helps his goat argument. Its absurd

This.

We've never even seen the guy hurt or in trouble. Never cut or bleeding. His career lowlights are getting his takedowns stuffed by a roided up Tibau and getting 50-43 scorecards against Al Iaquinta. Unbelievable.

Tibau landed more significant strikes, more total strikes, stuffed more than 10 takedown attempts and had the only takedown in the fight. If I remember correctly the entire media row scored it 30-27 for Tibau. This was also around 5 years prior to Tibau ever popping for anything (and he was one of the most tested athletes on the roster for a while). Khabib's career lowlight is a worse looking decision than Mayweather vs Castillo 1...and Mayweather at least had a shoulder injury to point to.

waya · Post #1272 » by **waya** » Mon Oct 26, 2020 7:35 pm

j4remi wrote:
waya wrote:
islanders11040 wrote:Khabib losing maybe 1 round his whole mma career definitely helps his goat argument. Its absurd

This.

We've never even seen the guy hurt or in trouble. Never cut or bleeding. His career lowlights are getting his takedowns stuffed by a roided up Tibau and getting 50-43 scorecards against Al Iaquinta. Unbelievable.

Tibau landed more significant strikes, more total strikes, stuffed more than 10 takedown attempts and had the only takedown in the fight. If I remember correctly the entire media row scored it 30-27 for Tibau. This was also around 5 years prior to Tibau ever popping for anything (and he was one of the most tested athletes on the roster for a while). Khabib's career lowlight is a worse looking decision than Mayweather vs Castillo 1...and Mayweather at least had a shoulder injury to point to.

Lol watch that fight again and you'd be hard-pressed to find ANY significant strikes, I don't care what the numbers of some UFC intern pressing a button says. The only way you can say Tibau clearly won that fight is if you give points for stuffing takedowns. Otherwise, neither guy did much but Khabib was the aggressor the entire fight while Tibau set a pace that would make 42 year old Yoel Romero proud. Most of Tibau's landed strikes were knees or pillow punches in the clinch while Khabib's wild overhands were landing consistently the 1st and 3rd rounds (one of which cut Tibau in the 1st).

Imo it was an awful fight that could have gone either way but not some blatant robbery like some people harp on about. The fact that this ambiguous decision is the worst thing against him when you have other GOAT contenders tapping to strikes, popping for roids or fighting like crap and blatantly getting the nod with judges boosts Khabib's case.

And if you believe that this guy, who later went on to pop, was not juiced to the gills for this fight, i don't know what to tell you:

Post #1273 » by **j4remi** » Mon Oct 26, 2020 8:53 pm

waya wrote:
Lol watch that fight again and you'd be hard-pressed to find ANY significant strikes, I don't care what the numbers of some UFC intern pressing a button says. The only way you can say Tibau clearly won that fight is if you give points for stuffing takedowns. Otherwise, neither guy did much but Khabib was the aggressor the entire fight while Tibau set a pace that would make 42 year old Yoel Romero proud. Most of Tibau's landed strikes were knees or pillow punches in the clinch while Khabib's wild overhands were landing consistently the 1st and 3rd rounds (one of which cut Tibau in the 1st).

Imo it was an awful fight that could have gone either way but not some blatant robbery like some people harp on about. The fact that this ambiguous decision is the worst thing against him when you have other GOAT contenders tapping to strikes, popping for roids or fighting like crap and blatantly getting the nod with judges boosts Khabib's case.

And if you believe that this guy, who later went on to pop, was not juiced to the gills for this fight, i don't know what to tell you:

http://www.mmadecisions.com/decision/3577/Khabib-Nurmagomedov-vs-Gleison-Tibau

Look at the cage writers' scores there, only one gave it to Khabib. You can't say Tibau clearly won for sure, but the idea that it was a robbery stems from how people felt prior to Khabib's star turn. Here's some live reaction from Sherdog scorers that were there...
https://www.sherdog.com/news/news/UFC-148-Results-Live-PlaybyPlay-Updates-44001

Official result: All three judges score the bout 30-27 for the winner by unanimous decision, Khabib Nurmagomedov. The crowd boos the baffling verdict as Nurmagomedov tears up. Tibau looks rightfully incredulous when the winner’s name is read.

Khabib controlled pushed Tibau to the cage and that's about it. It's not a crazy robbery, but it absolutely is comparable to the Corrales decision against Mayweather. People at the time felt one way and then as the guy went on to an amazing career, the narrative shifted away from initial reaction.

In terms of juicing; I'm agnostic. If you pass all your drug tests for the fight, you were clean. At least if I'm trying to do the fair evaluation thing. I have guys that I'm sure were juicing too, but if they didn't get caught, I don't think it's applicable outside of jokes and conjecture.

HarthorneWingo · Post #1274 » by **HarthorneWingo** » Thu Oct 29, 2020 2:42 am

This is crazy. According to DC, Khabib said that he was going to go for the arm bar in just before the end of the fight but remembered that Justin said he would never tap. Since Khabib didn't want to hurt Justin in front of his parents, he transitioned to the triangle and decided to put Gaethje to sleep.

Watch on YouTube

Post #1275 » by **j4remi** » Thu Oct 29, 2020 1:10 pm

Douglas Lima vs Gegard Mousasi tonight for Bellator's Middleweight title. Lima has become one of Bellator's stars with his Welterweight title run and KO's over guys like MVP and Koreshkov. In his last 13 fights he's lost twice (Rory MacDonald and Andrei Koreshkov); both in close bouts that he would avenge in rematches. Mousasi's lost one fight in his last 9, to undefeated and now retired Rafael Lovato Jr....check out the 8 guys he's beaten most recently:

Thales Leites (fought for UFC belt), Thiago Santos (one of Jones' toughest fights), Belfort (former champ), Uriah Hall, Chris Weidman (former champ), Shlemenko, Carvalho, MacDonald (Bellator champ, UFC title challenger), Machida (former champ).

Mousasi is the natural middleweight. He crushed Rory in the last Superfight. Now he's got another Welterweight champ to deal with, mainly because he's bodied the MW division besides Lovato. He's looked shaky in his last two though, losing the Lovato fight and eke'ing by against Machida. I'd like to see this card do well because Bellator had to release a bunch of name talent yesterday. The COVID lockdowns hurt some of the biggest promotions that aren't UFC. The ones with bigger rosters like Rizin and Bellator.

This is a legit superfight. Lima would do well in the UFC's killer WW division and Mousasi was a top 10 ranked contender MW in the UFC. These guys are legit.

HarthorneWingo · Post #1276 » by **HarthorneWingo** » Sat Oct 31, 2020 5:37 am

That fight was ass

HarthorneWingo · Post #1277 » by **HarthorneWingo** » Sat Oct 31, 2020 8:20 pm

Fight Night tonight. Silva vs. Hall. Looks like there are some interesting fights on the card. Calling on Remi?
_______________________________________

Man, I hope Anderson retires. Does he owe money to the wrong people?

Buttah304 · Post #1278 » by **Buttah304** » Sun Nov 1, 2020 2:53 pm

Geronta Davis with the KO of the year. That uppercut was from another planet.

bringbackhoffa · Post #1279 » by **bringbackhoffa** » Sun Nov 1, 2020 2:56 pm

Dana announced Israel v Jan yesterday for 205 title, indicated Whitaker didn't want rematch which is a lie. Whitaker said he did not want to fight until March because he is expecting a baby in January and due to strict quarantine did not want to fight close to birth of child.

I dont get why Dana picks on certain fighters and not other like Francis has been begging for a fight and yet does not book him, even though he says he loves fighters that want to fight.

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HarthorneWingo · Post #1280 » by **HarthorneWingo** » Mon Nov 2, 2020 12:17 am

bringbackhoffa wrote:Dana announced Israel v Jan yesterday for 205 title, indicated Whitaker didn't want rematch which is a lie. Whitaker said he did not want to fight until March because he is expecting a baby in January and due to strict quarantine did not want to fight close to birth of child.

I dont get why Dana picks on certain fighters and not other like Francis has been begging for a fight and yet does not book him, even though he says he loves fighters that want to fight.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

Even Dana's own mother says he's an ass-hole.