PG: Team win - Frenchie w/ 41 - RJ first career game winner - Randle vs Fans

[Clyde_Style]

So we have to build an entire roster around RJ for him to succeed?

And what if the Knicks still suck?

Every player in the NBA can use floor spacers and stretch 5s. These aren't just undervalued commodities.

What has RJ done to warrant having a roster built around him more than Randle, Obi or Mitch? Because they suffer from RJ's lack of shooting too.

I think you still need a # 1 option, but if you get another alpha that plays team ball and, in particular, is copasetic with pushing the pace, then RJ could be a dynamic # 2. Standing around in boring half court ISO ball is a detriment to his natural inclinations, so it is not so much a matter of building around him, but with him. When playing with the right teammates, RJ is a guy who will make those around him better, not worse.

If RJ becomes consistent, there is still more upside than he is given credit for. His high water marks so far show that scoring 25 points in a game is not really that big a deal for him when he gets in a rhythm.

Well, he rarely gets in a rhythm.

So who's this magical "alpha that plays team ball" who helps RJ AND who benefits from RJ's style of play?

Jokic? Curry?

And are we sure they need his 33% from 3 and lack of ability to finish at the rim?

Why would they want him over another average 3&D wing who can play passable defense and not shoot well from 3?

RJ is not helping any team win at the moment. The eye test suggests it, the statistical evidence proves it.

We're just reaching with those "he just needs the right cast of players around him to make them better", and deep down you know it. Because you're scrambling to find something good in hypothetical scenarios that are tailored to his individual needs. That's how you know it's not happening in real life.

Deep down I know you don't know what I know. I think you would say the same thing to me about you.

I think RJ when he's playing well is a terrific player to have and I've been upfront about his inconsistency.

I also know he was excellent last year after a slow start and this year has been more up and down so far, but he has shown specific skills improvements this season that were not evident last year.

If he puts it all together he'll be an excellent player. I'm willing to wait it out.

[Clyde_Style]

RJ shot 4 for 15.

His TS% last night was 38.78%. His FG% was 26.7%.

His efficiency for the entire season is awful.

RJ's game-winner was beautiful. But games don't last for only one possession.

You're missing the bigger picture here.

Didn't he have 3 or 4 clutch plays in the final minute or two?

Your reputation as RJ's biggest supporter is on the line

He made a great pass to Mitch with like 1:20 remaining, and he went to the line, although I don't remember the play that led to him getting the two free throws.

I just try not to judge players on some plays here and there, or one-game, or one-month sample sizes. That's how you lose sight of their overall performance and impact on team success.

Good players are consistent. RJ so far hasn't been consistent as an NBA player. I'm not saying to bash the kid, that's just the reality of the situation.

He made a great pass because he attacked with the game on the line and created the motion that Mitch responded to. And he got fouled also because he took it inside and they hacked him to stop him.

Clutch is clutch and he showed definite clutchness by forcing the issue and making things happen multiple times with the game on the line and then sealing it with the best dagger shot you could wish for

You have no obligation to take his Mamba moment and incorporate it into your analysis, but it is a sign that he might become a big game player

[Chanel Bomber]

I think you still need a # 1 option, but if you get another alpha that plays team ball and, in particular, is copasetic with pushing the pace, then RJ could be a dynamic # 2. Standing around in boring half court ISO ball is a detriment to his natural inclinations, so it is not so much a matter of building around him, but with him. When playing with the right teammates, RJ is a guy who will make those around him better, not worse.

If RJ becomes consistent, there is still more upside than he is given credit for. His high water marks so far show that scoring 25 points in a game is not really that big a deal for him when he gets in a rhythm.

Well, he rarely gets in a rhythm.

So who's this magical "alpha that plays team ball" who helps RJ AND who benefits from RJ's style of play?

Jokic? Curry?

And are we sure they need his 33% from 3 and lack of ability to finish at the rim?

Why would they want him over another average 3&D wing who can play passable defense and not shoot well from 3?

RJ is not helping any team win at the moment. The eye test suggests it, the statistical evidence proves it.

We're just reaching with those "he just needs the right cast of players around him to make them better", and deep down you know it. Because you're scrambling to find something good in hypothetical scenarios that are tailored to his individual needs. That's how you know it's not happening in real life.

Deep down I know you don't know what I know. I think you would say the same thing to me about you.

I think RJ when he's playing well is a terrific player to have and I've been upfront about his inconsistency.

I also know he was excellent last year after a slow start and this year has been more up and down so far, but he has shown specific skills improvements this season that were not evident last year.

If he puts it all together he'll be an excellent player. I'm willing to wait it out.

Fair enough, I take that one back.

Any player is a terrific player to have when they're playing well. That's almost a truism.

The question is are they terrific often enough that - on the whole - they generally impact winning positively through 82 games, plus the playoffs. That's how players should be judged in their roles imo.

My assessment of RJ is that he was pretty much average last year. Probably a little below-average. I think a lot of the hype surrounding him (same with Randle) was mostly narrative-driven.

Fair enough on being willing to wait it out, can't say anything about that. But there's is only one season left after this one before his second contract. So let's see.

[knicksNOTslick]

I mean unless RJ knew that IQ would have a driving lane all the way from the 3 point line I don’t think that play was heads up RJ and more like a smart play by IQ. The Mitch alley looked like a designed routine play and still for 42+ minutes of the game he was terrible. 13 points missed 11 shots shot 26% from the field.

It doesn't matter if he knew IQ had a driving lane or not. He created the opportunity by breaking the defense down then passing out to the open man who's a known threat at the 3pt line. That's a smart decision. Once IQ got the ball, the defender was already in a bad situation to run catch up and defend the 3 point shot. Now all IQ had to do was either chuck up a shot or easily drive by the defender whose momentum was already heading towards him.

RJ gets credit cuz he didn't force up a shot and moved the ball to make something happen.

It's crazy posters can't even give credit where it's due cuz of biases, calling things luck. That's too funny.

He didn’t break the defense down lol. Fournier almost got stripped which is what created the open baseline drive by Barrett. The defense overplayed and they paid for it. And honestly like I said he made a jump pass I believe and found IQ who actually made the right read and didn’t shoot the three. And it’s not funny how some of you will cape for certain players just bc we drafted them.

So the defense overplayed and he didn't force the shot. Instead he made the right decision to kick out to the outside threat. He made something happen out of a broken play and took advantage of the poor defense. That's better than players who force shots even when clearly double teamed.

You just don't want to give credit and that's fine. So yes it is funny. I root for the vets too so long as they contribute to winning us games.

[Clyde_Style]

Well, he rarely gets in a rhythm.

So who's this magical "alpha that plays team ball" who helps RJ AND who benefits from RJ's style of play?

Jokic? Curry?

And are we sure they need his 33% from 3 and lack of ability to finish at the rim?

Why would they want him over another average 3&D wing who can play passable defense and not shoot well from 3?

RJ is not helping any team win at the moment. The eye test suggests it, the statistical evidence proves it.

We're just reaching with those "he just needs the right cast of players around him to make them better", and deep down you know it. Because you're scrambling to find something good in hypothetical scenarios that are tailored to his individual needs. That's how you know it's not happening in real life.

Deep down I know you don't know what I know. I think you would say the same thing to me about you.

I think RJ when he's playing well is a terrific player to have and I've been upfront about his inconsistency.

I also know he was excellent last year after a slow start and this year has been more up and down so far, but he has shown specific skills improvements this season that were not evident last year.

If he puts it all together he'll be an excellent player. I'm willing to wait it out.

Fair enough, I take that one back.

Any player is a terrific player to have when they're playing well. That's almost a truism.

The question is are they terrific often enough that - on the whole - they generally impact winning positively through 82 games, plus the playoffs. That's how players should be judged in their roles imo.

My assessment of RJ is that he was pretty much average last year. Probably a little below-average. I think a lot of the hype surrounding him (same with Randle) was mostly narrative-driven.

Fair enough on being willing to wait it out, can't say anything about that. But there's is only one season left after this one before his second contract. So let's see.

Yes, contract issues loom. I get it.

BUT he is still only 21. And he is NOT a bust at all. To be only 22 when he starts his fourth year means to me he has plenty of runway left to excel. Whether he will hit his stride by the time we have to decide on his contract status is the big question, but it also may result in him signing a reasonable deal and then continuing to improve until he becomes a bargain while under his second contract. I think that is what will happen. I don't think they will let him go. I'd bet on Randle being traded before RJ is.

[KnixtapeH20]

I don‘t think he is a bad player, tho. he does a lot of things well and is important for this team. but he is still just a lob catcher. what about his jumpshot that we always heard of? didn‘t he post videos ofit years ago and still hasn‘t shot it in game… that would be so important to open things on O

You don't win a single game right now without Mitch.

Taj is a more complete player, but he can't buffer our defense down low like Mitch does.

Without Mitch we'd be getting blown out every night

We just played a whole season without him and went something like 10 games over .500. He’s expendable

We had Bullock who guarded the primary scorers from attacking the basket.we had Randle who was committed to defense and playing out of his mind.

We got blown out in the playoffs bc our centers were so ineffective. You saw how Mitch changed that ATL game on Christmas regardless if they ain't have trae.

Taj is a monster for his age but defensively and on the boards hes not even close Mitch. Noel well most us us know hes prolly the second useless player on this team next to Fournier.

[HEZI]

So we have to build an entire roster around RJ for him to succeed?

And what if the Knicks still suck?

Every player in the NBA can use floor spacers and stretch 5s. These aren't just undervalued commodities.

What has RJ done to warrant having a roster built around him more than Randle, Obi or Mitch? Because they suffer from RJ's lack of shooting too.

Never even said build the roster around him, he doesn't even need that. RJ would thrive on a lot of other teams because for one they don't have to play Randle ball and for two they have a style that would fit him better than what we have.

Also, what do we mean by succeed? Put up numbers on a bad team as a primary option? If so, he can definitely do that, like many of your favorite players can. Give him the opportunity to play on a team with Zero expectation as the main guy and watch his numbers without taking into account how awful the team would be, there's a lot of those guys out there in the league.

I disagree that he would thrive on a lot of other teams, although I genuinely don't know what you consider as "thriving". How do you measure RJ as "thriving"?

I think RJ's currently a bench player on a good team. Because good teams don't need his shot creation skills and good teams expect better than 33% from 3 and passable defense from their 3&D guys.

Does Randle hurt RJ's game a little bit? Probably. But Randle's not the difference between RJ being an inefficient player on the Knicks and a stud. Most teams have ball-dominant players anyway - this is not some sort of Knicks exceptionalism. Randle just isn't as good at it as most All-Stars, but generally you have guys fitting into that role.

Many NBA players can put up numbers on low efficiency on bad teams. I don't know where that fits into the conversation. It was never part of my argument.

Ok who are these good teams? Let’s start there

[K_ick_God]

The poet and lyricist Kendrick Lamar offers a close approximation of Julius Randle's message to Knicks fans.

Tell me what you gon' do to me
Confrontation ain't nothin' new to me
You can bring a bullet, bring a sword
Bring a morgue, but you can't bring the truth to me
**** you and all your expectations
I don't even want your congratulations
I recognize your false confidence and calculated promises all in your conversation
I hate people that feel entitled
Look at me crazy 'cause I ain't invite you
Oh, you important?
You the moral to the story, you endorsing?
****, I don't even like you
Corrupt a man's heart with a gift
That's how you find out who you dealin' with
A small percentage, who I'm building with
I want the credit if I'm losing or I'm winning
On my momma that's the realest ****

[Chanel Bomber]

Didn't he have 3 or 4 clutch plays in the final minute or two?

Your reputation as RJ's biggest supporter is on the line

He made a great pass to Mitch with like 1:20 remaining, and he went to the line, although I don't remember the play that led to him getting the two free throws.

I just try not to judge players on some plays here and there, or one-game, or one-month sample sizes. That's how you lose sight of their overall performance and impact on team success.

Good players are consistent. RJ so far hasn't been consistent as an NBA player. I'm not saying to bash the kid, that's just the reality of the situation.

He made a great pass because he attacked with the game on the line and created the motion that Mitch responded to. And he got fouled also because he took it inside and they hacked him to stop him.

Clutch is clutch and he showed definite clutchness by forcing the issue and making things happen multiple times with the game on the line and then sealing it with the best dagger shot you could wish for

You have no obligation to take his Mamba moment and incorporate it into your analysis, but it is a sign that he might become a big game player

I don't think RJ has been a clutch player, I think the good memories are simply more salient than the negative ones, which we've come to expect to some degree.

Although I did just find out that his scoring efficiency rises to 54.3% in the 4th quarter, which is still below-average but still an improvement over the first three quarters. Same last season. So you might be onto something there.

We've seen Harrison Barnes, Devonte Graham, Marcus Smart, Damion Lee hit game-winners just in the past year though. I really don't think it's a sign of greatness at all.

He played great in the clutch yesterday. I hope it builds his confidence. The team needs him.

[Clyde_Style]

He made a great pass to Mitch with like 1:20 remaining, and he went to the line, although I don't remember the play that led to him getting the two free throws.

I just try not to judge players on some plays here and there, or one-game, or one-month sample sizes. That's how you lose sight of their overall performance and impact on team success.

Good players are consistent. RJ so far hasn't been consistent as an NBA player. I'm not saying to bash the kid, that's just the reality of the situation.

He made a great pass because he attacked with the game on the line and created the motion that Mitch responded to. And he got fouled also because he took it inside and they hacked him to stop him.

Clutch is clutch and he showed definite clutchness by forcing the issue and making things happen multiple times with the game on the line and then sealing it with the best dagger shot you could wish for

You have no obligation to take his Mamba moment and incorporate it into your analysis, but it is a sign that he might become a big game player

I don't think RJ has been a clutch player, I think the good memories are simply more salient than the negative ones, which we've come to expect to some degree.

Although I did just find out that his scoring efficiency rises to 54.3% in the 4th quarter, which is still below-average but still an improvement over the first three quarters. Same last season. So you might be onto something there.

We've seen Harrison Barnes, Devonte Graham, Marcus Smart, Damion Lee hit game-winners just in the past year though. I really don't think it's a sign of greatness at all.

He played great in the clutch yesterday. I hope it builds his confidence. The team needs him.

Let's just say RJ ain't scared. That may not mean much to you now, but it definitely will if he hits his stride. Lots of players don't have that streak in them

[robillionaire]

He made a great pass to Mitch with like 1:20 remaining, and he went to the line, although I don't remember the play that led to him getting the two free throws.

I just try not to judge players on some plays here and there, or one-game, or one-month sample sizes. That's how you lose sight of their overall performance and impact on team success.

Good players are consistent. RJ so far hasn't been consistent as an NBA player. I'm not saying to bash the kid, that's just the reality of the situation.

He made a great pass because he attacked with the game on the line and created the motion that Mitch responded to. And he got fouled also because he took it inside and they hacked him to stop him.

Clutch is clutch and he showed definite clutchness by forcing the issue and making things happen multiple times with the game on the line and then sealing it with the best dagger shot you could wish for

You have no obligation to take his Mamba moment and incorporate it into your analysis, but it is a sign that he might become a big game player

I don't think RJ has been a clutch player, I think the good memories are simply more salient than the negative ones, which we've come to expect to some degree.

Although I did just find out that his scoring efficiency rises to 54.3% in the 4th quarter, which is still below-average but still an improvement over the first three quarters. Same last season. So you might be onto something there.

We've seen Harrison Barnes, Devonte Graham, Marcus Smart, Damion Lee hit game-winners just in the past year though. I really don't think it's a sign of greatness at all.

He played great in the clutch yesterday. I hope it builds his confidence. The team needs him.

He made that last shot but I think there was at least a certain degree of luck involved in that. The play to throw a lob for Mitch was also good. He did also miss 1-2 from the line when he could have put us up 4. He also got cooked by Tatum when he tied the game. It was a mixed bag. Thankfully the shot went in

[Chanel Bomber]

Deep down I know you don't know what I know. I think you would say the same thing to me about you.

I think RJ when he's playing well is a terrific player to have and I've been upfront about his inconsistency.

I also know he was excellent last year after a slow start and this year has been more up and down so far, but he has shown specific skills improvements this season that were not evident last year.

If he puts it all together he'll be an excellent player. I'm willing to wait it out.

Fair enough, I take that one back.

Any player is a terrific player to have when they're playing well. That's almost a truism.

The question is are they terrific often enough that - on the whole - they generally impact winning positively through 82 games, plus the playoffs. That's how players should be judged in their roles imo.

My assessment of RJ is that he was pretty much average last year. Probably a little below-average. I think a lot of the hype surrounding him (same with Randle) was mostly narrative-driven.

Fair enough on being willing to wait it out, can't say anything about that. But there's is only one season left after this one before his second contract. So let's see.

Yes, contract issues loom. I get it.

BUT he is still only 21. And he is NOT a bust at all. To be only 22 when he starts his fourth year means to me he has plenty of runway left to excel. Whether he will hit his stride by the time we have to decide on his contract status is the big question, but it also may result in him signing a reasonable deal and then continuing to improve until he becomes a bargain while under his second contract. I think that is what will happen. I don't think they will let him go. I'd bet on Randle being traded before RJ is.

I have never called RJ a bust, just to be clear.

I think it's way too early to make that prognostication.

It will be interesting to see if Leon Rose decides to bet on RJ, since he didn't draft him.

The problem for the Knicks is that there's no superstar to trade him for as part of a package. So they might elect to stand pat for the time being, for lack of a better option.

My hope is that he becomes (what I consider) a positive contributor for the Knicks and stays here long-term. That has always been my preference.

[nedleeds]

He's not a shooter, he's a scorer but he has to play the role of a shooter because we have terrible floor spacing, bigs that clog the paint, a stagnant offense built around a black hole outdated PF type. Yet even under that circumstance, RJ has flashed potential and found ways to have very good games. Now if only we can actually put the right pieces around him to maximize him, that'd be great

He’s not really a scorer tho. Tatum coming out of Duke was a scorer. A scorer has a multitude of skills that he uses to get open and create shots for himself. RJ doesn’t have any legitimate dribble moves or a post game. He doesn’t create most of his looks and he depends on his height to get shots over his defenders. His points are down this season because he’s missing the wide open looks he was making last season. He lacks a quick first step and athleticism to be a good half court player and that’s not going to change.

Are you serious? So you are telling me guys like Jimmy Butler, Dillon Brooks, Miles Bridges, etc. aren't scorers?

RJ is a very smart player, understands the game very well especially somebody at his age. His jumper isn't broken at all whatsoever he just needs more reps and a team oriented offense where the ball will swing with energy. He's not a give him the ball to dance around his defender iso after iso type of scorer but he's certainly a scorer.

I'm trying to be reasonable, but did you watch the game last night? Dude got blocked on 4 of his first 7 attempts. Once by Grant Williams ... I'm not impugning him as a person or questioning his effort. But he's looking far more like Gerald Henderson than Jimmy Butler. Miles Bridges took a **** this morning that's a better athlete than RJ, Bridges has nuclear athleticism. Dillon Brooks is a decent comp so far but I'm not sure if you realize how awful a shooter Brooks is, he's a bit better this year in only 20 games.

[Clyde_Style]

He made a great pass because he attacked with the game on the line and created the motion that Mitch responded to. And he got fouled also because he took it inside and they hacked him to stop him.

Clutch is clutch and he showed definite clutchness by forcing the issue and making things happen multiple times with the game on the line and then sealing it with the best dagger shot you could wish for

You have no obligation to take his Mamba moment and incorporate it into your analysis, but it is a sign that he might become a big game player

I don't think RJ has been a clutch player, I think the good memories are simply more salient than the negative ones, which we've come to expect to some degree.

Although I did just find out that his scoring efficiency rises to 54.3% in the 4th quarter, which is still below-average but still an improvement over the first three quarters. Same last season. So you might be onto something there.

We've seen Harrison Barnes, Devonte Graham, Marcus Smart, Damion Lee hit game-winners just in the past year though. I really don't think it's a sign of greatness at all.

He played great in the clutch yesterday. I hope it builds his confidence. The team needs him.

He made that last shot but I think there was at least a certain degree of luck involved in that. The play to throw a lob for Mitch was also good. He did also miss 1-2 from the line when he could have put us up 4. He also got cooked by Tatum when he tied the game. It was a mixed bag. Thankfully the shot went in

Are you Fcking kidding us?

It was a great shot

Stop trying to undermine it

[nedleeds]

RJ is not helping any team win at the moment. The eye test suggests it, the statistical evidence proves it.

If only he could hit some buzzer beaters to help a team win

They wouldn't need a complete brick buzzer beater prayer bank shot if their starting SF wasn't 3-14 before that.

[nedleeds]

He’s not really a scorer tho. Tatum coming out of Duke was a scorer. A scorer has a multitude of skills that he uses to get open and create shots for himself. RJ doesn’t have any legitimate dribble moves or a post game. He doesn’t create most of his looks and he depends on his height to get shots over his defenders. His points are down this season because he’s missing the wide open looks he was making last season. He lacks a quick first step and athleticism to be a good half court player and that’s not going to change.

Are you serious? So you are telling me guys like Jimmy Butler, Dillon Brooks, Miles Bridges, etc. aren't scorers?

RJ is a very smart player, understands the game very well especially somebody at his age. His jumper isn't broken at all whatsoever he just needs more reps and a team oriented offense where the ball will swing with energy. He's not a give him the ball to dance around his defender iso after iso type of scorer but he's certainly a scorer.

I'm trying to be reasonable, but did you watch the game last night? Dude got blocked on 4 of his first 7 attempts. Once by Grant Williams ... I'm not impugning him as a person or questioning his effort. But he's looking far more like Gerald Henderson than Jimmy Butler. Miles Bridges took a **** this morning that's a better athlete than RJ, Bridges has nuclear athleticism. Dillon Brooks is a decent comp so far but I'm not sure if you realize how awful a shooter Brooks is, he's a bit better this year in only 20 games.

wait wait wait .... are you trolling me man? There are some people in this thread who on full green font mode.

[K_ick_God]

Apology accepted.

[NYKnickerbocker]

64 pages lol

[robillionaire]

I don't think RJ has been a clutch player, I think the good memories are simply more salient than the negative ones, which we've come to expect to some degree.

Although I did just find out that his scoring efficiency rises to 54.3% in the 4th quarter, which is still below-average but still an improvement over the first three quarters. Same last season. So you might be onto something there.

We've seen Harrison Barnes, Devonte Graham, Marcus Smart, Damion Lee hit game-winners just in the past year though. I really don't think it's a sign of greatness at all.

He played great in the clutch yesterday. I hope it builds his confidence. The team needs him.

He made that last shot but I think there was at least a certain degree of luck involved in that. The play to throw a lob for Mitch was also good. He did also miss 1-2 from the line when he could have put us up 4. He also got cooked by Tatum when he tied the game. It was a mixed bag. Thankfully the shot went in

Are you Fcking kidding us?

It was a great shot

Stop trying to undermine it

Nah I’ll keep undermining it, it was a lucky bank in, and had Randle had the exact same game RJ had and made that same shot he would get absolutely 0 credit for it especially by you.

[prophet_of_rage]

The poet and lyricist Kendrick Lamar offers a close approximation of Julius Randle's message to Knicks fans.

Tell me what you gon' do to me
Confrontation ain't nothin' new to me
You can bring a bullet, bring a sword
Bring a morgue, but you can't bring the truth to me
**** you and all your expectations
I don't even want your congratulations
I recognize your false confidence and calculated promises all in your conversation
I hate people that feel entitled
Look at me crazy 'cause I ain't invite you
Oh, you important?
You the moral to the story, you endorsing?
****, I don't even like you
Corrupt a man's heart with a gift
That's how you find out who you dealin' with
A small percentage, who I'm building with
I want the credit if I'm losing or I'm winning
On my momma that's the realest ****

Nice.

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