All Lin talk here

[Fury]

I don't know what's so difficult to understand about Felton being who he is in his prime while there is still a mystery to how good Lin is. It's like speaking to a dumber Stephen A Smith.

[Phish Tank]

Let's not make things too complicated here. The argument is:

A) Lin is a better player than Felton considering the amount of money he will be paid this year.
B) Our team would be in a better position to win with a better player because better players tend to make teams better because they're better.

Fixed to clarify the argument.

Let's provide this for more information:

1) Felton's salary: 4 million
2) Lin's average salary: 8 million

there are other factors. first of all i dont think woodson would have used lin properly or even wants to develop rookies. so no Lin shouldn't be here if we aren't going to use his skill set properly. felton at 4 million is still to much ray is mediocre. someone like kyle lowry would be ideal.

lowry's a player i'd love to have too... if he was a FA and also not on the Houston Rockets, who love to screw us on any deal possible

[21shumpshumpst]

No the point is he had good games vs bad teams.

He was awful vs good teams.

I don't need him being good vs bad teams. I can get any monkey to do that. I need him to be good vs good teams which will be in the playoffs.
He has not proven he can do that at all. If he can't do it in the regular seaosn what makes you think he will do it in the playoffs.?

have you looked at kyrie irving's numbers are against Miami last year? pretty horrendous. atrocious actually. but you know, he's a young guard learning the NBA game.

He was also their #1, #2 and #3 option. He was the man on that team.

Lin was not. Teams had to focus on Melo and Amare. Boxing out Tyson. Who did teams have to guard other than Kyrie in Cleveland? Kyrie's role in his team and Lin are widly different.

[21shumpshumpst]

Lin can't adjust. It's over.

Holy **** Shump is dumb.

Look up rookie seasons for superstars, man.

Agreed. Can't say enough how dumb they are (especially SAS). They're dumb because their main case against Lin is he can't go left... mutha... seriously??? This guy actually seriously gets paid to analyze the game and talk??? I'm a right handed guy and couldn't do **** with my left except wiping my ass (I even wiped my ass with my right thesedays) and typing. But I worked on my left hand and now about 80% comfortable (before, it was like MINUS 30% comfortable, that was how bad it was) using my left to dribble and lay ups. And it was only a period of 1 week self-training.

Lin has a coach and he goes practice three times a day, every day in summer. Working on your weak hand is one of the easiest improvement you ever gonna experience.

And I don't even know what SAS is talking about Lin's left hand a weakness like he never used it. In Sacramento game, he dribble lefty around 4 Kings defenders, never even switched to his right, and laid it lefty and the whole sequence looked pretty damn fluid to me (at least for a guy who was supposed to be stiff with his left). Check the video below yourself (0:27)

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OmQ1G_jqPY[/youtube]

Read my posts from today and tell me where did I say he can't go left? I just pointed to his ACTUAL STATS and that was it.

[Capn'O]

Let's not make things too complicated here. The argument is:

A) Lin is a better player than Felton considering the amount of money he will be paid this year.
B) Our team would be in a better position to win with a better player because better players tend to make teams better because they're better.

Fixed to clarify the argument.

Let's provide this for more information:

1) Felton's salary: 4 million
2) Lin's average salary: 8 million

It's certainly the argument from Dolan's standpoint. But from my standpoint that dollar amount is irrelevant. The team is better with Lin running it. The dollar amount didn't really close off the other options we had to build the team.

[knicksnyk]

No I don't believe he will go back to those numbers. He had those numbers under the same inflated offense lin got his numbers from. He went to Denver and immediately his numbers dropped.

But isn't that the same thing as lin? Yeah it is. But somehow Felton = crap and Lin = godsend.

No the advanced statistics you gave me are crap. There was this really good article on advanced statistics that were actually useful. Like a heat map of Melo vs Durant shooting percentage on the floor. The percentage of melo's point that caem from iso and from other plays. Those type of advance statistics are meaninful and helfpul. They are useful. Teams use them to scout others. Per 36 is an idiotic stat. +/- ditto.

But we KNOW felton is mediocre outside of MDA system. Lin we don't know. But the funny thing is Lin is all about isolation EVERY team in the NBA scores on ISO so does it not translate? You know what is even more hilarious Lin was a lot better in the half court than he was in transition last year ADVANCED STATS prove that that is why he played so well under woodson with a slowed down pace and more half court stuff. you telling me that that doesn't translate? Here let kenny smith explain it to you

http://www.nba.com/video/channels/nba_t ... ef:nbahpt1

And i gave u MORE than just per 36 check again. I gave you ISO, TS%, TRB%, STl%, BLK%, Jumpers off the dribble & numbers in the clutch. try again.

[21shumpshumpst]

I don't know what's so difficult to understand about Felton being who he is in his prime while there is still a mystery to how good Lin is. It's like speaking to a dumber Stephen A Smith.

But that can be said about any young pg.

My point is that everyone on this thread is saying we made a mistake and have no shot at winning a title.

NO ACTUAL STATS hint at that. None.

They show a guy who had a great 14 game run then came back down to earth. Got figured out and shot a horrible percentage against bad teams. Now is he that bad as some of those games I listen? I don't think so. I think he will improve but not go back to that 2 week run he had.

Point is nothing hints at the fact that Felton can't put up the numbers Lin put up during March which to some of you was good enough last year.

[GettinitDone]

Lin was catalyst in our offense in everything we do. Yes, we have a scoring machine in Melo, but Lin was the one who makes sure we set the tempo early and involve everyone (you know, when you feel like you're involved in a cause, you're gonna feel better about working on it, and you tend to give your all). Our team was strong in this sense.

He's a scoring first guy? I wouldn't dispute that, but I wouldn't say he can't become a pass-first guy. Look at the Kings video below when he had 6 assists in the first quarter, creating shots for everyone.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OmQ1G_jqPY[/youtube]


Hey, it's during Linsanity when Melo is not back. True, that's why Lin became even more of a pass-first guy when Melo was back and when Woody took over. Remember when we blew out teams and our starters didn't even have to play in the fourths? It's because in those games we ALWAYS came out ready on offense and in the middle of our offense was Lin distributing the ball to everyone. His bounce passes, alleys, passing to teammate's shooting pocket were crisp and precise and without hesitation, it tremendously boost the scorers' confidence. We were absolute sonsofbitches to guard, so to speak. We were a nightmare for opposing teams because we had a QB who makes scoring easy.


Saw Felton during his "best time" in New York, and I agree with those who say he has a tunnel vision. Once he locks in to pass, he can't see others on his left or right, who may actually be more open for easier scoring opportunities than the person he passes the ball to. And, if Felton comes in like he was in Portland shape? It's gonna be ugly.

All the passing and ball sharing when Lin was injured and the team thought they can do fine without Lin is a big mistake. The passing and ball sharing continued AFTER Lin set the tone and it became contagious to the whole team.

Melo was phenomenal late in season. But even the clutch ones would miss one day. I would trade those clutch Bulls games (despite the excitement of the clutch shots and victory) for the blow out wins we had when Lin was still playing because in those games we were clearly the scarier team and we would beat teams so bad we wouldn't need clutch shooting to win games at the risk of losing. We were WINNING HUGE every game and it was great feeling to be a fan of team that other teams dread playing against.

[Fury]

I don't know what's so difficult to understand about Felton being who he is in his prime while there is still a mystery to how good Lin is. It's like speaking to a dumber Stephen A Smith.

But that can be said about any young pg.

My point is that everyone on this thread is saying we made a mistake and have no shot at winning a title.

NO ACTUAL STATS hint at that. None.

They show a guy who had a great 14 game run then came back down to earth. Got figured out and shot a horrible percentage against bad teams. Now is he that bad as some of those games I listen? I don't think so. I think he will improve but not go back to that 2 week run he had.

Point is nothing hints at the fact that Felton can't put up the numbers Lin put up during March which to some of you was good enough last year.

First of all, it wasn't a great run. It was a historical 14 game run.

Got figured out? Teams adjusted. That's what happens in the NBA. Now it's time for Jeremy Lin to adjust, who still had good games sprinkled in those bad ones.

I don't care about your stats thing cause it doesn't make sense.

We're not saying he's going to go back to his 14 game run. But he showed great potential.

And no Felton can't. He hasn't done it in his career throughout a season. Maybe Lin can.

And yes, it's part in due because he's a young PG.

Tell me something, when the Celtics won the title, would you have traded Rondo for like Baron Davis because Davis is a sure thing? Remember, Rondo in his second year was meh, and a weird player but the potential was there.

And with that I'm done. If you can't understand my position there, you never will.

[knicksnyk]

Christ & i thought Knick fans were the most intelligent fans in the nba. NOBODY said we can't win without him. We are not winning anything with or without Lin. but three years down the road maybe lin & shump develop into great playersa nd we have our backcourt of the future. can we stop arguing now about something NOBODY said.

[21shumpshumpst]

But we KNOW felton is mediocre outside of MDA system. Lin we don't know. But the funny thing is Lin is all about isolation EVERY team in the NBA scores on ISO so does it not translate? You know what is even more hilarious Lin was a lot better in the half court than he was in transition last year ADVANCED STATS prove that that is why he played so well under woodson with a slowed down pace and more half court stuff. you telling me that that doesn't translate? Here let kenny smith explain it to you

http://www.nba.com/video/channels/nba_t ... ef:nbahpt1

And i gave u MORE than just per 36 check again. I gave you ISO, TS%, TRB%, STl%, BLK%, Jumpers off the dribble & numbers in the clutch. try again.

He played well under woodson because he played for 7 games under woodson vs CRAP teams. I don't consider Indiana or Philly good teams which were the two best he played against.

He had a horrible game vs philly other than the last 10 fts he made after Philly starting playing the ft shooting game with 1 minute to go. An ok game vs indiana. And a very good game vs Indiana.

You don't think Felton can do that?

[blumatic]

I don't know what's so difficult to understand about Felton being who he is in his prime while there is still a mystery to how good Lin is. It's like speaking to a dumber Stephen A Smith.

How good or how bad.

Listen we dont know what his floor his yet neither. Lin's game is as unstable as a fusion reactor experiment.

I remember when Lin first stepped on the court for us. Man this dude would fall flat on his face time and time again. Clumsy as hell like a new born colt. Even after Linsanity Lin would just fall on his face if a good defender was on him.

Then Lin is schooling Kobe on national TV.

I think Lin benefitted alot from playing with players like Melo, Amare, and even Tyson. Sure he did great by himself but he was a novelty.

Its gonna be a different game now that he is a well known player and a face of a franchise. Now I dont hang that Miami game on Lin because that happens to the best of them. I wanted Lin to stay because he's solid point guard and he was ours. But with Felton here I really dont see the big differential. If you call me an idiot, I'l call you in love with someone you barely knew.

Felton is a solid point guard on a Bobcat team, he should be a good one with a talented team like this one.

And if people really feel that Lin is the nest Steve Nash then I hope Felton is our Jason Terry and...............

[Fury]

I sorta disagree with blumatic, but he makes fair points. Why cant u be like that shumpshump?

[Capn'O]

Lin was catalyst in our offense in everything we do. Yes, we have a scoring machine in Melo, but Lin was the one who makes sure we set the tempo early and involve everyone (you know, when you feel like you're involved in a cause, you're gonna feel better about working on it, and you tend to give your all). Our team was strong in this sense.

He's a scoring first guy? I wouldn't dispute that, but I wouldn't say he can't become a pass-first guy. Look at the Kings video below when he had 6 assists in the first quarter, creating shots for everyone.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OmQ1G_jqPY[/youtube]


Hey, it's during Linsanity when Melo is not back. True, that's why Lin became even more of a pass-first guy when Melo was back and when Woody took over. Remember when we blew out teams and our starters didn't even have to play in the fourths? It's because in those games we ALWAYS came out ready on offense and in the middle of our offense was Lin distributing the ball to everyone. His bounce passes, alleys, passing to teammate's shooting pocket were crisp and precise and without hesitation, it tremendously boost the scorers' confidence. We were absolute sonsofbitches to guard, so to speak. We were a nightmare for opposing teams because we had a QB who makes scoring easy.


Saw Felton during his "best time" in New York, and I agree with those who say he has a tunnel vision. Once he locks in to pass, he can't see others on his left or right, who may actually be more open for easier scoring opportunities than the person he passes the ball to. And, if Felton comes in like he was in Portland shape? It's gonna be ugly.

All the passing and ball sharing when Lin was injured and the team thought they can do fine without Lin is a big mistake. The passing and ball sharing continued AFTER Lin set the tone and it became contagious to the whole team.

Melo was phenomenal late in season. But even the clutch ones would miss one day. I would trade those clutch Bulls games (despite the excitement of the clutch shots and victory) for the blow out wins we had when Lin was still playing because in those games we were clearly the scarier team and we would beat teams so bad we wouldn't need clutch shooting to win games at the risk of losing. We were WINNING HUGE every game and it was great feeling to be a fan of team that other teams dread playing against.

Great post, especially the bolded.

Lin's feel for pacing the game and getting everyone involved is a very rare attribute. He knows how to create roles for himself and everyone on the team that create a better unit.

I like Felton. He is solid and probably better for Stat's stats. It's just not the best route we could have taken and I think that will become apparent this season.

[knicksnyk]

But we KNOW felton is mediocre outside of MDA system. Lin we don't know. But the funny thing is Lin is all about isolation EVERY team in the NBA scores on ISO so does it not translate? You know what is even more hilarious Lin was a lot better in the half court than he was in transition last year ADVANCED STATS prove that that is why he played so well under woodson with a slowed down pace and more half court stuff. you telling me that that doesn't translate? Here let kenny smith explain it to you

http://www.nba.com/video/channels/nba_t ... ef:nbahpt1

And i gave u MORE than just per 36 check again. I gave you ISO, TS%, TRB%, STl%, BLK%, Jumpers off the dribble & numbers in the clutch. try again.

He played well under woodson because he played for 7 games under woodson vs CRAP teams. I don't consider Indiana or Philly good teams which were the two best he played against.

He had a horrible game vs philly other than the last 10 fts he made after Philly starting playing the ft shooting game with 1 minute to go. An ok game vs indiana. And a very good game vs Indiana.

You don't think Felton can do that?

both of those teams u call crap teams weren't 8-15 like we were last season. considering we LOST to the sixers & pacers & raptors & nets at various times last year you can't sit here and talk like we are so much better than us when they were beating us last year. lmao at knick fans calling teams that got further than us in the playoffs crap teams. the pacers had a better record than us & what part of felton is a mediocre to average pg don't u understand. felton is what he is and lin will get better so no felton isnt the answer. i am done talking to you. you dont get it and i don;t think u will ever get it.

[GettinitDone]

But we KNOW felton is mediocre outside of MDA system. Lin we don't know. But the funny thing is Lin is all about isolation EVERY team in the NBA scores on ISO so does it not translate? You know what is even more hilarious Lin was a lot better in the half court than he was in transition last year ADVANCED STATS prove that that is why he played so well under woodson with a slowed down pace and more half court stuff. you telling me that that doesn't translate? Here let kenny smith explain it to you

http://www.nba.com/video/channels/nba_t ... ef:nbahpt1

And i gave u MORE than just per 36 check again. I gave you ISO, TS%, TRB%, STl%, BLK%, Jumpers off the dribble & numbers in the clutch. try again.

He played well under woodson because he played for 7 games under woodson vs CRAP teams. I don't consider Indiana or Philly good teams which were the two best he played against.

He had a horrible game vs philly other than the last 10 fts he made after Philly starting playing the ft shooting game with 1 minute to go. An ok game vs indiana. And a very good game vs Indiana.

You don't think Felton can do that?

Felton took 124 total FTs last season in 60 games... an average of 2.0 FT per game, so he doesn't really draw fouls to go to FT like Lin (164 FTs in 26 games/ since first breakout Nets game... an average of 6.3 FT per game), nor does he have instincts to draw them when he realizes he's having a bad shooting night like Lin did. He'd keep chucking. I take a winner any day who knows to go to FT line to score when he struggles with his shots, and literally wins the game.

Okay game vs. Indiana? 13 pts on only 7 shots, and 5 assists, and 5 rebounds? In only 26 minutes? From a second year player who's virtually a rookie, I take it anytime.

[knicksnyk]

i don't even know waht to say we should be thanking god that we won those 7 games. lmao. were seriously putting an asterisk on a win. I can't believe it. after the season we had knick fans have the nerve to call other teams crap when we played like crap all year wow.

[Fury]

Yeah, that game was really good. Of course Shump didn't see it cause he'd know it was a blowout and Lin ran the offense perfectly.

[xclearscreen]

a lot of people like to blame d'antoni but he IS a genius offensive coach. that game vs Sacramento had so many plays drawn up and then executed perfectly by that Linsanity crew. of course his defense was suspect but that Linsanity crew really clicked on both ends of the court. players were communicating and helping out. everybody was accountable. it was a thing of beauty the knicks may never obtain again.

[GettinitDone]

This team should hire Corey Maggette too (when he's done playing) to teach us how to go to FT.

When the whole team's offense struggles, going to FT line is the absolute stabilizer, the most steadying force.

Wanna know why Lin took 10 FTs in Philly game? The answers are gonna be a concern for our whole 2012-13 outlook because:
1.) Nobody else was going to FT line... duh...
2.) this means, this is disturbing, not even Melo or Amare (our bona-fide scorers) realized they had to go to FT when the whole team couldn't score/ was tentative to take shots... Philly was playing pretty great defense. Even more disturbing is, what if Melo and Amare DID realize they had to go to FT but didn't do it at all? I used to be a Nugget fan, and Melo had a season when he almost led the L in scoring (I think it was 4 years ago) and was among FT leaders. George Karl wanted him to take 10 FTs every game. After that season, somehow he kept taking less and less every season since. He now no longer draws fouls to go to FTs or bothered to do it for some reason although clearly, he'd be even more effective and thus deadlier.

Our offense is gonna struggle at some point, and when Lin took those FTs, it absolutely killed Philly's spirit ("why the **** do give our best to play defense only to surrender FT points to this guy?"). In a playoffs series, such impact can be demoralizing to opposing teams, and this factor can be big in winning a series. We lost the guy who can/ regularly does it for us.

If not Melo/ Amare taking FTs when our team struggles to score, who's gonna consciously say, "dammit, I'm gonna draw fouls so we can at least score points from FTs"/ someone who makes it a mission to go to FT? Furthermore, on consecutive possessions? Felton, Chandler, Shump, Camby, Kidd, Brewer, JR, Chris, Prigioni, Thomas? Nope, none of them has that mentality... and this is a great concern imo.