[Camelo Thread Part 11] - Knicks make offer? Pg 82

[moocow007]

This potential Rockets offer is better than that offer:
- Yao's contract
- one of Hill or Patterson
- one of Lee, Williams or Budinger
- your #1 pick

Especially considering Chandler's upcoming free agency. The Rockets can also take back additional salary, although I don't see us wanting Harrington but either Birdman or Nene, as we need bigs.

You guys should be in the drivers seat unless the Nuggets just want to hold a grudge, but you do have to beat rental offers from teams like Houston. Lowballing won't get it done. The Nuggets are trying to maximize his value. They don't care about how much Melo wants to extend, and if they can get a better rental deal then what NY is offering then they will take it.

That is NOT the Rocket's rental offer

No one knows what the Rockets rental offer is. If you know please share and let us know how you found out.

Wouldn't/shouldn't you ask yourself the same question? You're the one that proposed it arent you?

[Invictus]

I'll take back Harrrington if we need too.. He had his moments and can be lethal off the bench..

I can see it now:

big baby and garnet converge on an out-of-control harrington careening in the post. Stat is open under the hoop, holding his hands ready for the pass.

Harrington continues his folly, and draws an offensive foul. Knicks turnover and they lose the game off last second paul pierce corner elbow shot. stat is livid, fans boo, d'antoni has that same damn look on his face.

[Invictus]

When you have no other real offers what exactly would be considered "lowball"? Obviously you don't want to be insulting, but let's be realistic...it's pretty apparently finally to everyone else and not just many Knick fans (who have known this for months) that he ONLY WANTS TO resign with the Knicks. So unless there is a rental offer out there that is better than it isn't lowballing. And the last thing that the Nuggets FO should be worried about is bering insulted...they've done their share to about a half dozen teams in the NBA already with their schenanigans.

This potential Rockets offer is better than that offer:
- Yao's contract
- one of Hill or Patterson
- one of Lee, Williams or Budinger
- your #1 pick

Especially considering Chandler's upcoming free agency. The Rockets can also take back additional salary, although I don't see us wanting Harrington but either Birdman or Nene, as we need bigs.

You guys should be in the drivers seat unless the Nuggets just want to hold a grudge, but you do have to beat rental offers from teams like Houston. Lowballing won't get it done. The Nuggets are trying to maximize his value. They don't care about how much Melo wants to extend, and if they can get a better rental deal then what NY is offering then they will take it.

NJ Deal>>>>that "potential" deal. Nuggets balked.

What makes you think that Houston offers that type of deal knowing what Denver rejected, ESPECIALLY considering it's just for a rental?

[swisscheeseD]

Hey Kosmo, since you're in the thread....

What is the first 1st Round pick we can actually offer to Denver as is? Since we have protections on the 2012 pick to Houston, doesn't that mean we can't trade our 2014 pick regardless since it technically may not still be ours (even though I'm sure we won't be a Top 5 lotto team in 2012)?

[CHARLYMURPHY]

I do think the trade we offered isent good enough for denver unless we get a 3rd team involved.

-Chandler isent what their looking for as their rebuilding and they dont want to pay him 10million a season.

- Fields is to similiar to Afflalo

- 1 1st round pick isent going to cut it.

I think unless we get a 3rd team involved this trade talk is going nowhere.

[smw6230]

What exactly was the original package again?

But as far as your proposed Rocket rental package?

1. And you are assuming that the Rockets are willing to offer this because?

2. Even if they do...

Jordan Hill has all the earmarks of a Kwame Brown like journeyman and Patrick Patterson has done what exactly in the NBA again? Having either as component one of a deal doesn't make it good.

Courtney Lee is another guy that doesn't have really any refined basketball skills and, if he's not playing with stud players around him to take the focus away from him really struggle to get his shot.

The Rockets aren't going to include Terrence Williams or Budinger as a component of a 40 game rental.

And our pick in 2012? If we assume that Melo will be with the team by then how good exactly will it be?

And what about considering the rather obvious fact that Chandler is FAR BETTER than any of the players mentioned in the rental?

Forget all that. There is only one possible motivating factor for Denver to run the risk and do a rental trade to a team in their own conference.

Anger and getting even w/Carmelo by denying him New York at any cost.

If Denver has any sense whatsoever they'll only do a rental with an eastern conference team. Doing a rental with Houston runs the risk of Denver making their playoff competition much better at their own expense. Secondly, what if Anthony resigns with Houston and that rental became permanent? You'd get killed by your own fans and the NBA for that act of incompetence.

There is a PR case to be made in justifying a trade to teh Knicks.

There is no Pr case to be made for trading Anthony to your direct competition and making them better at a bargain price.

There is a reason why when teams trade superstars they trade them out of their own conference/league.

There is simply far too much risk in doing a rental within conference for any sensible GM.

[moocow007]

I'll take back Harrrington if we need too.. He had his moments and can be lethal off the bench..

I can see it now:

big baby and garnet converge on an out-of-control harrington careening in the post. Stat is open under the hoop, holding his hands ready for the pass.

Harrington continues his folly, and draws an offensive foul. Knicks turnover and they lose the game off last second paul pierce corner elbow shot. stat is livid, fans boo, d'antoni has that same damn look on his face.

I'd much rather have Birdman and/or JR Smith than Harrington and I'd rather not have him back at all, but let's not get carried away. Harrington never had a Stoudemire on his team as a Knick to be viewed as someone who wouldn't pass in that situation. Harrington was the Knicks most dynamic offensive player during his stay here no matter how people want to try to view it otherwise. It may be sad but it was true. Does anyone really believe that D'Antoni (with his infamous doghousing of guys that didn't do what he wanted) would have played Harrington all that if he didn't approve of what Harrington was doing? Harrington was the Knicks no.1 offensive option in terms of when a play breaks down (i.e. when the pick-and-roll between Lee and Duhon didn't work) cause he was the one Knick that could consistently create shots for himself. D'Antoni didn't play Harrington and let him do the things he did because he was trying to do Harrington any favors...he did it because he had no better option. In a system that wins by offense, you need to have a guy can do so...and Harrington was the best he had (such as it was).

[nykinoz]

Dallas may take Chandler, with Marion getting on in age and Butler hurt. Will would kill it there.

[Pharmcat]

Dallas may take Chandler, with Marion getting on in age and Butler hurt. Will would kill it there.

but who would they give up?

their best asset is beabois, and i'll let moocow finish that line up

[kingmalaki]

But as far as your proposed Rocket rental package?

1. And you are assuming that the Rockets are willing to offer this because?

It's a guess. No one has a clue what Morey is offering. All signs point to him being interested in a deal without an extension. As I've mentioned in other posts, he could be bluffing to try to get in on a deal sending Melo to NY, as him going there impacts us directly (our draft rights from NY). It wouldn't shock me if that was his ultimate goal.

2. Even if they do...

My first question to you would be how many Rockets games have you watched this season, to guage your analysis of our players? None of the rumored players that Denver rejected (from NY) or the guys I listed are studs. Even if you want to say Chandler is better than all of them, he is a free agent and I believe he already said he didn't want to stay in Denver. So why would the Nuggets essentially rent him for the remainder of the year? You can't definitively point to Landry being better than any Rocket player I mentioned, especially Williams (headcase) or Patterson who just recently got on the court and is playing better than expected in his rookie season.

The Rockets have Martin, Lee, Budinger and Williams. They all can't play (Hill and Williams only get time if someone is hurt). So it's quite plausible for the Rockets to be fine letting one of each (per position....SF and PF) go via trade.

And our pick in 2012? If we assume that Melo will be with the team by then how good exactly will it be?

Arguably better than your pick in 2011 (pick swap with us, and if we get Melo it won't be a great pick), your pick in 2013 and 2014 (since those are 2 seasons away and immediate picks are better). Unless the pick you get for shipping off Randolph won't have any kind of protection attached to it, which I doubt (why wouldn't it at least be lotto protected). And if it's not unprotected then you can't even deal the 2011 or 2013 picks right? You don't think a 2012 pick is better than 1 2014 one?

And what about considering the rather obvious fact that Chandler is FAR BETTER than any of the players mentioned in the rental?

Free agent....

[moocow007]

Dallas may take Chandler, with Marion getting on in age and Butler hurt. Will would kill it there.

Problem is what Dallas has to offer that might actually interest Denver. They have basically one young player that could be considered as an notable asset that would fit what Denver is looking for (Rodrique Beaubois). And I don't know that Beaubois would be viewed as a real asset for Denver since, in a rebuild scenario, their current best young player is also a PG (Ty Lawson). But hey, sure, if Ujiri (using whatever broken quija board he's using to determine value) is high on Beaubois then sure.

I mentioned this before, but Chandler for Al-Farouq Aminu works under the cap and the Clippers (who has had some pretty damn impressive wins against the best teams of late) have been rumored to be looking for an immediate upgrade at SF. Aminu has upside and he's on the 1st year of his rookie contract which seems to fit what Denver is looking for. And if the Clips want to keep Blake Griffin they probably will want to start winning asap. Adding Chandler to the middle of the starting lineup between Griffin and Gordon would take them up a notch right away.

[moocow007]

Dallas may take Chandler, with Marion getting on in age and Butler hurt. Will would kill it there.

but who would they give up?

their best asset is beabois, and i'll let moocow finish that line up

Proof of Beaubois as a great prospect captured recently on camera...

[kingmalaki]

No one knows what the Rockets rental offer is. If you know please share and let us know how you found out.

Wouldn't/shouldn't you ask yourself the same question? You're the one that proposed it arent you?

I don't believe I stated this is what the Rockets offer will be, or anything like that. I listed a potential trade that is arguably better than the NY one (that was supposedely rejected), that won't put a dent in Houston's core.

I don't have Morey on speed dial, but I'm also not claiming that I know who is offering what.

[nykinoz]

Dallas may take Chandler, with Marion getting on in age and Butler hurt. Will would kill it there.

but who would they give up?

their best asset is beabois, and i'll let moocow finish that line up

Ok, Something like:


NY Incoming Players
Carmelo Anthony
Renaldo Balkman
Melvin Ely

NY Outgoing Players
Eddy Curry
Kelenna Azubuike
Wilson Chandler
Landry Fields
1st Round Pick (Via AR)

Denver Incoming Players
Eddy Curry
Kelenna Azubuike
Landry Fields
Alexis Ajinca
Rodrigue Beaubois
1st Round Pick from NY
1st Round pick from Dallas

Denver Outgoing Players
Carmelo Anthony
Renaldo Balkman
Melvin Ely

Dallas Incoming Players
Wilson Chandler

Dallas Outgoing Players
Alexis Ajinca
Rodrigue Beaubois
1st Round Pick

[kingmalaki]

NJ Deal>>>>that "potential" deal. Nuggets balked.

What makes you think that Houston offers that type of deal knowing what Denver rejected, ESPECIALLY considering it's just for a rental?

NJ needed an extension to get a deal done, or at least seemed to care about one. Our GM doesn't seem to care about one. World of difference.

I've already stated I don't see us giving up enough to beat a full price Melo package from NY, but I'm sure our rental offer can beat lowball offers like the one that was supposedely rejected.

[smw6230]

NJ Deal>>>>that "potential" deal. Nuggets balked.

What makes you think that Houston offers that type of deal knowing what Denver rejected, ESPECIALLY considering it's just for a rental?

NJ needed an extension to get a deal done, or at least seemed to care about one. Our GM doesn't seem to care about one. World of difference.

I've already stated I don't see us giving up enough to beat a full price Melo package from NY, but I'm sure our rental offer can beat lowball offers like the one that was supposedely rejected.

Riddle me this.

What exactly is Denver's incentive to make Houston, a direct playoff competitor and conference rival, better at a bargain basement price?

[kosmovitelli]

Hey Kosmo, since you're in the thread....

What is the first 1st Round pick we can actually offer to Denver as is? Since we have protections on the 2012 pick to Houston, doesn't that mean we can't trade our 2014 pick regardless since it technically may not still be ours (even though I'm sure we won't be a Top 5 lotto team in 2012)?

We can trade :
- 2014 first round pick
- 2015 first round pick
- 2016 first round pick
- 2017 first round pick

We can't trade :
- 2011 first round pick
- 2012 first round pick (traded to Houston)
- 2013 first round pick


So to answer your question, 2014 is the first future first round pick the Knicks can offer in trades right now.

And frankly, as we already traded our 2012 first round pick to Houston, I doubt Donnie Walsh would accept to give up two future first round picks (I mean Knicks own picks) for Melo even if he could. We already traded our 2009 first round pick (Hill), our 2010 first round pick, our 2012 first round pick. That's enough. Even if it's for Melo, not having a first round pick in 2012 and 2014 could hamper our flexibility (even if the team's salary cap position is fine). That's why I prefer to sign Melo as a free agent next summer if possible (even if it means losing Chandler). Chandler and Melo play the same position and we couldn't pay both anyway. And just like he did with Lee, Walsh could be creative and try to find a way to trade Chandler for future draft picks or young players/assets. Cleveland and Toronto both have large TPE expiring mid july. They can be trade partners.

[Johnny Hoops]

Koz -

Thought I read just the other day that the Knicks can't trade any #1 picks out until 2016 or something like that because the Houston 2012 #1 pick has provisions on it that could force it to be moved to latter years.

I thought it was Coon who mentioned this.

I think he basically said we can't trade any #1 picks unless we get a 2012 pick -- but I may have misunderstood.

[NYK0605]

Im still trying to figure out why any team would want to rent Melo with the exception of Dallas.

Why the hell does Houston want to rent him? Do they think they are one player away? Stupid.

[Jitpal]

I had an idea. Couldn't Walsh trade for a first rounder this year and then deal that first rounder to Houston for the Knicks 2012 pick back? Thereby, allowing the Knicks to trade their own 2011 and 2013 pick? Say something like Indiana's pick this year, currently 15, instead of the Rockets getting the Knicks pick next year that would likely be in the mid-20s. Morey gets to move up in the draft and get the pick sooner. -Jitpal