[Camelo Thread Part 12] - Melo's list grows? pg. 50

[Futureisnow]

Serious question from a Heat fan about this whole Melo drama ... wouldn't it be a ton cheaper in terms of players, picks & money to simply trade for Michael Beasley? Sure he's no Melo at this point, but he's only 22 years old, and he's been improving steadily from year to year.

I don't know ... it just seems that it would make more sense to get 80% to 90% of Melo's production at bargain rates and save your assets and money to target Chris Paul or Dwight Howard.

Beasley is an effing head case. I don't know how cheap that trade would have to be in order to be worth it.

[Jmonty580]

Beasley is a good up and coming player but he doesnt even come close to comparing to Melo. The key to to compete AGAINST the heat for a championship, not plan on taking over AFTER the heat has won its championships. Amare is not here to groom the next generation of Knicks and not achieve any success himself. Melo allows Amare and the Knicks to contend now instead of later, and when you have Amare now you have to build for NOW, not later.

If you trade for Beasley then you might as well trade Amare too and get back another up an coming player to build towards the future.

[moocow007]

Couple of things here:

1) Even with the new CBA, I would expect that the previous team would have the right to give that extra year. In the case of status quo, we are talking about a 5 yr/100 vs. 6 yr/120. This was irrelevant for Amare since Phoenix did not even make a 5 year guaranteed contract, but it is not hard to imagine Denver will make an offer like that to Melo. So by refusing a S&T, you are essentially telling Melo to screw himself if he wants more money with the additional year.

? There would have been no ramifications to Phoenix had the sign and trade that Walsh gifted them with was for 5/100 or 6/120. So your saying Stoudemire screwed himself? If traded Melo would actually be receiving a 4 year $80 million deal (the last year of his current contract plus the 3 year extension) and yet he appears eager for that so lets not assume hes going to screw himself.

2) If we are going to S&T route in order to give Melo his additional year, there is no doubt that Denver will want something out of it, ie picks, cap relief via taking on Al etc. They won't be interested in the trade exception as Phoenix or Toronto did as they will be way under the cap anyways.

And yet the ONLY team that got anything real for their top guys this past summer were the teams that were lucky to be dealing with teams that couldnt sign the player outright. Hows that? Did every other top player screw themselves by not getting that 6 th year at the sign and trade max? Or is Melo the only nitpicking selfish superstar out there?

3) As well-documented, we will probably not have enough cap space to sign the max contract to begin with. We will have to make additional moves which means giving up assets.

Yes it will be difficult to find a team willing to take Mozgov or Turiaf AND $3 million (which would make Mozgov free and Turiaf a $1million player. Yes green font.

So overall, I don't think waiting to the summer will mean we will be able to get a great deal in Melo.

You appear to be missing the point. Waiting for the summer IS risky. There is NO guarantee youll get diddly squat AND evidence of that was presented. Sure no one knows what who will want what and what is necessary for whom but people acting like Denver has nothing to lose by waiting is fooling themselves. Toronto, Cleveland, Phoenix all paid terribly by thinking that. Phoenix would have been screwed had Walsh not gifted them with including them in the deal. Cleveland and Toronto were screwed about as screwed can be and thats wiyh them managing to get a TPE (which has been used to improve their rebuilding team how again?).

TPE are only useful if you are going to use it. If as has been said on numerous occassions that Denver would be looking to scale back salary, a TPE becomes less useful especially for a team that will still be over cap barring more trades of their own. Snd yet the TPE has almost taken on a god like quality in terms of value...which is another mindboggling thing about this.

About the first point. If this is done in the summer, it won't be an extend and trade anymore. Melo would already opt out (he has to decide by June 30). It comes down to signing with NY for x years (we don't know what would it be with the new CBA of course) vs. x+1 years if he is signed and traded. We don't know how many years it will be in the new CBA obviously, but it will be very likely this difference will be in place.

Overall as far as money and the importance there of for Melo (which is the basis of your entire argument) would suggest you read the wiretap. But yes if he MUST get 6 years then the Knicks will have to deal with Denver.

But still missing the point...the point is you assume he needs the 6 th year and the sign and trade max). Where has he said that? Stop assuming.

About the second point. Every player eligible for the sixth year got it in the S&T. Bosh got it. LBJ got it. Lee got it. The ones that did not get it were never offered the sixth year by anyone to begin with. Miami gave away two first round picks each to Toronto and Cleveland so that they can give that sixth year to Bosh and LBJ respectively. So I do not get what your complaint on this.

Huh? My second point was no team got any real value for their superstars (tell me what value any of those teams got for their TPE? And yeah Miami 1st rounders....real valuable.

And once again you assume that money is the most important. Get it? Or maybe you should read the wiretap again.

About your third point. Again it is well documented that not only you do one of those you mentioned, but also you have to rescind Chandler plus find a taker for the first round pick. So it comes down to seeing Chandler, Turiaf (or Mozgov) and the first round pick as assets. I perceive them as assets. You may not.

And again it should not be difficult to shed enough contracts to create space ASSUMING that Melo wouldnt be willing to not have to get absolute max (see Wade, Lebron) to be where you want to be to win. What it comes down to has what to do with my point? OBVIOUSLY NY stands to lose assets in the summer if the sign him as a free agent captain obvious. But that has no relevance in the silly notion that they would need to give them all to Denver (which unless you are still not quite getting IS the gist of my entire argument).

About your last point. I don't know what you are mumbling about the TPE. First you say we did a favor to Phoenix with TPE and we don't have to do the same favor to Denver and they can go screw themselves. Then you make a 180 and say that TPE is useless to begin with. In any case, for Denver it has no meaning as they will be under the cap.

Try doing a better job trying to understand my point instead of getting defensive. Phoenix DID use their TPE. In fact their plans (regardless of how its used) t would have been screwed had Walsh not gifted them with it ( still following me?). Using the TPE is the value (such as it is). Having it isnt value if the direction you are headed doesnt involve spending (see Denver). The less you are willing to spend the less useful a TPE is. Not sure why its so hard to understand that.

Overall, what I am saying is simply this: I don't see Melo coming to NY without a S&T. We will have to come to terms with Denver even in the summer. A Melo deal in the summer will cost us Chandler, first round pick, and one of Turiaf or Mozgov. Given that, a mid-season trade would be at least as good as this package for Denver to make a move.

And thats your opinion. But the points are no one knows what it will take, the Knicks are not in a must give big assets to Denver mode and TPE are only usefull if you plan on using it....all of which leads to its most drfinitely a risk for Denver to wait for the summer.

[kosmovitelli]

And maybe he realizes, as he should, that there is NO CHANCE he will lose $15 million - $20 million or anything close.

At this point, he's reiterated a few times that it's about winning and not money. Since he's following through on that so far, maybe we should start believing him.

He won't lose $20mil or $40 mil like some reported (without any real explanation how they calculated that amount) but I think it's like Lebron's $30 million last year. They often take numbers coming from the player's original team and obviously that team usually takes into account only guaranteed money in their comparisons. Basically with the additional year, Lebron could have lost more than $30 million in guaranteed money (if the Cavs refused to sign and trade him). With Melo, I think they reached $40 million because they probably think in the next CBA the player's original team will have the right to offer two additional seasons (instead of one currently).

Melo will probably have the chance to sign another lucrative max contract in 4 or 5 years but (unlike Lebron, Wade and Bosh who all wanted to have the opportunity to exercise their right to opt out and become free agents before the next CBA) Melo opted to sign a longer contract in 2006. He valued long term security and guaranteed money instead of flexibility. Melo reiterated afew times it's about winning but I doubt any player would say it's only about $ ! And at the same time last year, Lebron said "I won't stop until I win a title for Cleveland."
We shall see if Melo will put his money where his mouth is. Only three more weeks to wait...

[kingOfqueens]

thats a lot there...totally defying the 'get melo for free in summer' myth

get him at now

SO... We would only have to trade/renounce/waive:

Curry
Turiaf
Azub
CHANDLER
Mason
Walker
And our 2011 first rounder for future considerations.

On top of all thatr we'd also be losing any potential value chandler could have brought in via S&T and our MLE which are both going to be really important to rebuild our bench depth and need for a rebounding big.

[aggo]

Ok here it is:

Stat, Felton, Mozz, Gallo, Anthony Randolph, Tony D., Fields, Rautins, Williams, 490,180 (cap hold), 490,180 (cap hold), Melo(salary/minimum cap hold not included to simplify the math)

40,811,051 Total cap hit.

Cap: 58,044,000

Available to sign Melo: 17,232,949

If it were me, I'd still keep Turiaf and get rid of AR ... as well as keeping Walker and getting rid of Rautins.

AR for a future 1st. Rautins + 1 million for a 2nd rounder.

Turiaf, Stat, Gallo, Fields, Felton, Douglas, Williams, Mozgov, Walker, 490,180, 490,180, 490,180.

Total Cap: 41,646,019
Available to sign Melo: 16,397,981

C : Turiaf - Mozgov
PF: Amare - Williams
SF: Melo - Galo
SG: Fields - Walker
PG: Felton - Douglas

...much deeper that way. At that point, if Melo is really willing to give up the 1.5 million to sign outright with us, the Nuggets may take Walker and a 1st rounder in a S&T allowing Melo to get the more money/years as well.

I'm not totally sure how it works, but go to turiaf, and offer him 3 years 9 million if he declines his PO. I dont know if his cap hold changes or if this is even possible, but it's something to consider and I'd be willing to bet that he'd accept that deal..

at 4.5 million he's grossly overpaid for his skillset. Guys liek Haslem command full MLE and even some, there is no way that Turiaf can get 4.5mil/year in the open market.

[seren]

Overall as far as money and the importance there of for Melo (which is the basis of your entire argument) would suggest you read the wiretap. But yes if he MUST get 6 years then the Knicks will have to deal with Denver.

But still missing the point...the point is you assume he needs the 6 th year and the sign and trade max). Where has he said that? Stop assuming.

About the second point. Every player eligible for the sixth year got it in the S&T. Bosh got it. LBJ got it. Lee got it. The ones that did not get it were never offered the sixth year by anyone to begin with. Miami gave away two first round picks each to Toronto and Cleveland so that they can give that sixth year to Bosh and LBJ respectively. So I do not get what your complaint on this.

Huh? My second point was no team got any real value for their superstars (tell me what value any of those teams got for their TPE? And yeah Miami 1st rounders....real valuable.

And once again you assume that money is the most important. Get it? Or maybe you should read the wiretap again.

About your third point. Again it is well documented that not only you do one of those you mentioned, but also you have to rescind Chandler plus find a taker for the first round pick. So it comes down to seeing Chandler, Turiaf (or Mozgov) and the first round pick as assets. I perceive them as assets. You may not.

And again it should not be difficult to shed enough contracts to create space ASSUMING that Melo wouldnt be willing to not have to get absolute max (see Wade, Lebron) to be where you want to be to win. What it comes down to has what to do with my point? OBVIOUSLY NY stands to lose assets in the summer if the sign him as a free agent captain obvious. But that has no relevance in the silly notion that they would need to give them all to Denver (which unless you are still not quite getting IS the gist of my entire argument).

About your last point. I don't know what you are mumbling about the TPE. First you say we did a favor to Phoenix with TPE and we don't have to do the same favor to Denver and they can go screw themselves. Then you make a 180 and say that TPE is useless to begin with. In any case, for Denver it has no meaning as they will be under the cap.

Try doing a better job trying to understand my point instead of getting defensive. Phoenix DID use their TPE. In fact their plans (regardless of how its used) t would have been screwed had Walsh not gifted them with it ( still following me?). Using the TPE is the value (such as it is). Having it isnt value if the direction you are headed doesnt involve spending (see Denver). The less you are willing to spend the less useful a TPE is. Not sure why its so hard to understand that.

Overall, what I am saying is simply this: I don't see Melo coming to NY without a S&T. We will have to come to terms with Denver even in the summer. A Melo deal in the summer will cost us Chandler, first round pick, and one of Turiaf or Mozgov. Given that, a mid-season trade would be at least as good as this package for Denver to make a move.

And thats your opinion. But the points are no one knows what it will take, the Knicks are not in a must give big assets to Denver mode and TPE are only usefull if you plan on using it....all of which leads to its most drfinitely a risk for Denver to wait for the summer.

Let's start with the 6th year issue. Please understand that there may never be a sixth year with the new CBA. It may be 3/4 years. It may be 4/5 years. That is the reason I stated that it will be x/x+1 years. Melo is taking a risk, a calculated one of course, to face much shorter contracts in the new CBA.

If the money is not a concern for Melo, I think you are absolutely right. We might as well trade whoever we will trade for. Melo may as well accept the veteran minimum.

I think you really are failing to understand the significance of the extra year. You completely ignored my examples of course. LBJ/Bosh/Lee all got that sixth year by involving in a S&T. Miami did not show the finger to Toronto. They gave two first round picks. They wanted to give what LBJ wanted. The extra year that is worth 20+ million. We may already need to ask Melo to face the uncertainty, sign below the max contract and it seems like you also want him to give that extra year away too. Think about what you are saying. Suppose Denver comes to you, says we want your '11 and '14 pick, Mozgov, involve in the S&T for Chandler (whether it is a third team or direcly), and we will do the S&T. You expect us to say screw you Denver? You expect us to spit on Melo's face tell him to go f*ck himself? And Melo has been consistent on this. He is willing to wait and risk the FA market. He also several times stated that he is not willing to leave 20 million on the table. Can you blame the guy? I don't.

And please stop with this Walsh gifted them the trade exception nonsense. First, Walsh is not an idiot. He understands he will do business with these guys again. Second, we actually did benefit from the trade. Amare's first year salary was lowered and his raises were adjusted so that he still makes 100 million but starts a bit lower. That gave us couple of hundred K under the cap which helped us give Mozgov what he is making.

I personally believe Melo will be a Knick. Before the deadline or in the summer. But I also believe that you will be in a big surprise with the amount of assets we will end up giving or the bad contracts we will be taking on. Melo will not come for free.

[moocow007]

Overall as far as money and the importance there of for Melo (which is the basis of your entire argument) would suggest you read the wiretap. But yes if he MUST get 6 years then the Knicks will have to deal with Denver.

But still missing the point...the point is you assume he needs the 6 th year and the sign and trade max). Where has he said that? Stop assuming.

About the second point. Every player eligible for the sixth year got it in the S&T. Bosh got it. LBJ got it. Lee got it. The ones that did not get it were never offered the sixth year by anyone to begin with. Miami gave away two first round picks each to Toronto and Cleveland so that they can give that sixth year to Bosh and LBJ respectively. So I do not get what your complaint on this.

Huh? My second point was no team got any real value for their superstars (tell me what value any of those teams got for their TPE? And yeah Miami 1st rounders....real valuable.

And once again you assume that money is the most important. Get it? Or maybe you should read the wiretap again.

About your third point. Again it is well documented that not only you do one of those you mentioned, but also you have to rescind Chandler plus find a taker for the first round pick. So it comes down to seeing Chandler, Turiaf (or Mozgov) and the first round pick as assets. I perceive them as assets. You may not.

And again it should not be difficult to shed enough contracts to create space ASSUMING that Melo wouldnt be willing to not have to get absolute max (see Wade, Lebron) to be where you want to be to win. What it comes down to has what to do with my point? OBVIOUSLY NY stands to lose assets in the summer if the sign him as a free agent captain obvious. But that has no relevance in the silly notion that they would need to give them all to Denver (which unless you are still not quite getting IS the gist of my entire argument).

About your last point. I don't know what you are mumbling about the TPE. First you say we did a favor to Phoenix with TPE and we don't have to do the same favor to Denver and they can go screw themselves. Then you make a 180 and say that TPE is useless to begin with. In any case, for Denver it has no meaning as they will be under the cap.

Try doing a better job trying to understand my point instead of getting defensive. Phoenix DID use their TPE. In fact their plans (regardless of how its used) t would have been screwed had Walsh not gifted them with it ( still following me?). Using the TPE is the value (such as it is). Having it isnt value if the direction you are headed doesnt involve spending (see Denver). The less you are willing to spend the less useful a TPE is. Not sure why its so hard to understand that.

Overall, what I am saying is simply this: I don't see Melo coming to NY without a S&T. We will have to come to terms with Denver even in the summer. A Melo deal in the summer will cost us Chandler, first round pick, and one of Turiaf or Mozgov. Given that, a mid-season trade would be at least as good as this package for Denver to make a move.

And thats your opinion. But the points are no one knows what it will take, the Knicks are not in a must give big assets to Denver mode and TPE are only usefull if you plan on using it....all of which leads to its most drfinitely a risk for Denver to wait for the summer.

Let's start with the 6th year issue. Please understand that there may never be a sixth year with the new CBA. It may be 3/4 years. It may be 4/5 years. That is the reason I stated that it will be x/x+1 years. Melo is taking a risk, a calculated one of course, to face much shorter contracts in the new CBA.

If the money is not a concern for Melo, I think you are absolutely right. We might as well trade whoever we will trade for. Melo may as well accept the veteran minimum.

I think you really are failing to understand the significance of the extra year. You completely ignored my examples of course. LBJ/Bosh/Lee all got that sixth year by involving in a S&T. Miami did not show the finger to Toronto. They gave two first round picks. They wanted to give what LBJ wanted. The extra year that is worth 20+ million. We may already need to ask Melo to face the uncertainty, sign below the max contract and it seems like you also want him to give that extra year away too. Think about what you are saying. Suppose Denver comes to you, says we want your '11 and '14 pick, Mozgov, involve in the S&T for Chandler (whether it is a third team or direcly), and we will do the S&T. You expect us to say screw you Denver? You expect us to spit on Melo's face tell him to go f*ck himself? And Melo has been consistent on this. He is willing to wait and risk the FA market. He also several times stated that he is not willing to leave 20 million on the table. Can you blame the guy? I don't.

And please stop with this Walsh gifted them the trade exception nonsense. First, Walsh is not an idiot. He understands he will do business with these guys again. Second, we actually did benefit from the trade. Amare's first year salary was lowered and his raises were adjusted so that he still makes 100 million but starts a bit lower. That gave us couple of hundred K under the cap which helped us give Mozgov what he is making.

I personally believe Melo will be a Knick. Before the deadline or in the summer. But I also believe that you will be in a big surprise with the amount of assets we will end up giving or the bad contracts we will be taking on. Melo will not come for free.

That's all fine and good (your belief...you're entitled) but the bottom line still is NO ONE knows what the heck it's going to be...not what the new CBA is going to be like, not what Melo wants, not what the Knicks want, not what Denver wants so to insist that the Knicks are going to be giving away essentially what they'd have to give away in a trade this year is just guessing and Denver is still very much risking being stuck like Toronto and Cleveland was holding the proverbial check at the end of the day. Very real....so waiting it out absolutely has risks. Doesn't mean the risk is realized but all this "Denver can just wait" or the "they can still recoup this in the summer" is not hardly written in stone and every day they delay the risk grows. And absolutely Walsh gifted the Suns with the TPE. The adjustments salary wise was minimal and wouldn't have likely interfered with signing Mozgov (that part of your retort is just guessing like the rest of your entire argument thus far).

[J9Starks3]

I'm not totally sure how it works, but go to turiaf, and offer him 3 years 9 million if he declines his PO. I dont know if his cap hold changes or if this is even possible, but it's something to consider and I'd be willing to bet that he'd accept that deal..

at 4.5 million he's grossly overpaid for his skillset. Guys liek Haslem command full MLE and even some, there is no way that Turiaf can get 4.5mil/year in the open market.

Thats a great idea, I wouldnt be opposed.

Its a big leap of faith for Ronny tho, hed have to give up his 4.5 million with the thought we would resign him to a longer term deal. I would be more than happy to give him a 3 year/9 million dollar deal if he would do that.

As soon as he opts out, his hold would go down to the minimum salary.

[KingSTAT]

this is a hilarious video about carmelo anthony and STAT!
http://youtu.be/sxE3E3jA_00

[towelie]

Let's start with the 6th year issue. Please understand that there may never be a sixth year with the new CBA. It may be 3/4 years. It may be 4/5 years. That is the reason I stated that it will be x/x+1 years. Melo is taking a risk, a calculated one of course, to face much shorter contracts in the new CBA.

If the money is not a concern for Melo, I think you are absolutely right. We might as well trade whoever we will trade for. Melo may as well accept the veteran minimum.

I think you really are failing to understand the significance of the extra year. You completely ignored my examples of course. LBJ/Bosh/Lee all got that sixth year by involving in a S&T. Miami did not show the finger to Toronto. They gave two first round picks. They wanted to give what LBJ wanted. The extra year that is worth 20+ million. We may already need to ask Melo to face the uncertainty, sign below the max contract and it seems like you also want him to give that extra year away too. Think about what you are saying. Suppose Denver comes to you, says we want your '11 and '14 pick, Mozgov, involve in the S&T for Chandler (whether it is a third team or direcly), and we will do the S&T. You expect us to say screw you Denver? You expect us to spit on Melo's face tell him to go f*ck himself? And Melo has been consistent on this. He is willing to wait and risk the FA market. He also several times stated that he is not willing to leave 20 million on the table. Can you blame the guy? I don't.

And please stop with this Walsh gifted them the trade exception nonsense. First, Walsh is not an idiot. He understands he will do business with these guys again. Second, we actually did benefit from the trade. Amare's first year salary was lowered and his raises were adjusted so that he still makes 100 million but starts a bit lower. That gave us couple of hundred K under the cap which helped us give Mozgov what he is making.

I personally believe Melo will be a Knick. Before the deadline or in the summer. But I also believe that you will be in a big surprise with the amount of assets we will end up giving or the bad contracts we will be taking on. Melo will not come for free.

Using exaggerations in your argument surely get your point across. Just cause moocow says that the extra year may not be a dealbreaker for Melo doesn't mean that he'd also be willing to sign for the vet min.

Why do you keep pointing out what Miami gave up with LeBron/Bosh, and ignore what we gave up to Amar'e, or what Orlando gave up to Seattle for Rashard Lewis (who did get his extra 6th year)? In both cases, nothing but a 2nd round pick + TPE was given up (and in our case, that 2nd rd pick is TOP 55 protected, practically worthless).

Now Denver wouldn't S&T Melo for just a 2nd rd pick, mainly because the TPE is worthless to them, unlike Phoenix or Seattle in the previous examples. But I really don't see us giving up more than say a future 1st + a throw-in like Walker or AR or draft rights to our 2011 pick. Unless Melo is flat out demanding we get him his 6th year, and refuses to sign with us otherwise, Denver simply doesn't have the leverage to ask for much more. If they're demanding Gallo + 2 picks for example, we just tell Melo outright, "look, Denver's asking price in a S&T is too high -- if you sign outright with us, we can re-extend you after 3 years."

Miami's situation was different. For one, several reports before FA stated that Bosh would only leave in a S&T, as he wanted his money and didn't want to leave Toronto high and dry. LeBron probably felt the same way in regards to Cleveland, but if Pat Riley told him straight out, "look, we can't work out a S&T with Cleveland cause they're asking too much, will you sign outright with us," do you think LeBron would've refused and go back to the Cavs?

Moreover, the key distinction with Miami was that LBJ and Bosh's agents likely demanded they get their 6th year/max raises as consideration for taking a paycut to accommodate Miller and Haslem on the roster. And Pat Riley, who already got commitments from LBJ and Bosh, probably could care less about throwing away future 1sts like candy.

[seren]

That's all fine and good (your belief...you're entitled) but the bottom line still is NO ONE knows what the heck it's going to be...not what the new CBA is going to be like, not what Melo wants, not what the Knicks want, not what Denver wants so to insist that the Knicks are going to be giving away essentially what they'd have to give away in a trade this year is just guessing and Denver is still very much risking being stuck like Toronto and Cleveland was holding the proverbial check at the end of the day. Very real....so waiting it out absolutely has risks. Doesn't mean the risk is realized but all this "Denver can just wait" or the "they can still recoup this in the summer" is not hardly written in stone and every day they delay the risk grows. And absolutely Walsh gifted the Suns with the TPE. The adjustments salary wise was minimal and wouldn't have likely interfered with signing Mozgov (that part of your retort is just guessing like the rest of your entire argument thus far).

Nah. No gifting. Standard practice. You get the extra couple of hundred and you keep the good relationships. Walsh knows better than anyone. He did a similar deal a while back with Stojakovic S&T to New Orleans.

This Denver must do a deal right now thing is nonsense. First, if there is no benefit in the trade, why should they? Do they owe the Knicks something? No. You have to give them an acceptable package. Denver is paying 83 million plus luxury tax this season. Any deal with them has to be at least as good as "renting" Melo. I don't think Cleveland feel bad they didn't trade LBJ earlier. You play the game to win. And Denver has a better chance to win games with Melo vs. whathever half azz package we are going to put in front of them. Whatever you give them has to be tangible. It has to be something they can't get in the summer. Otherwise, no reason to hurry.

[KingSTAT]

I must say this video i found about Carmelo and STAT is very creative and witty. http://youtu.be/sxE3E3jA_00

[seren]

Using exaggerations in your argument surely get your point across. Just cause moocow says that the extra year may not be a dealbreaker for Melo doesn't mean that he'd also be willing to sign for the vet min.

Why do you keep pointing out what Miami gave up with LeBron/Bosh, and ignore what we gave up to Amar'e, or what Orlando gave up to Seattle for Rashard Lewis (who did get his extra 6th year)? In both cases, nothing but a 2nd round pick + TPE was given up (and in our case, that 2nd rd pick is TOP 55 protected, practically worthless).

Now Denver wouldn't S&T Melo for just a 2nd rd pick, mainly because the TPE is worthless to them, unlike Phoenix or Seattle in the previous examples. But I really don't see us giving up more than say a future 1st + a throw-in like Walker or AR or draft rights to our 2011 pick. Unless Melo is flat out demanding we get him his 6th year, and refuses to sign with us otherwise, Denver simply doesn't have the leverage to ask for much more. If they're demanding Gallo + 2 picks for example, we just tell Melo outright, "look, Denver's asking price in a S&T is too high -- if you sign outright with us, we can re-extend you after 3 years."

Miami's situation was different. For one, several reports before FA stated that Bosh would only leave in a S&T, as he wanted his money and didn't want to leave Toronto high and dry. LeBron probably felt the same way in regards to Cleveland, but if Pat Riley told him straight out, "look, we can't work out a S&T with Cleveland cause they're asking too much, will you sign outright with us," do you think LeBron would've refused and go back to the Cavs?

Moreover, the key distinction with Miami was that LBJ and Bosh's agents likely demanded they get their 6th year/max raises as consideration for taking a paycut to accommodate Miller and Haslem on the roster. And Pat Riley, who already got commitments from LBJ and Bosh, probably could care less about throwing away future 1sts like candy.

You are just making my point. There are two types of S&Ts. One in which the other team gave up on the player and is willing to recoup whatever they can, ie Amare and Lewis deals. Both these deals have the same principle: Their previous teams were not willing to give the contracts these players were seeking. That is hardly the case with Melo. Denver has an offer on the table. Just like Toronto and Cleveland had for LBJ and Bosh.

In terms of the Riley situation. Riley gave up what he could. If they asked, he would give up Beasley too and I am sure he would add whoever is left on the roster (only Chalmers left). Nobody wanted. It wasn't a situation like Riley tried to negotiate a better deal. From what I read, everyone expects Walsh to squeeze the last drop from Denver. It is one thing for Riley to go and tell LBJ, the only assets we have are two picks, a picks swap, and 2 second rounders and Cleveland doesn't want, it is another thing for Walsh to tell Melo, they wanted picks, AR, TD, fill in the rookie contract player you can name, but we did not want to budge so you have to settle with a shorter contract.

[Context]

And please stop with this Walsh gifted them the trade exception nonsense. First, Walsh is not an idiot. He understands he will do business with these guys again.

I personally believe Melo will be a Knick. Before the deadline or in the summer. But I also believe that you will be in a big surprise with the amount of assets we will end up giving or the bad contracts we will be taking on. Melo will not come for free.

In fact, Knicks president of basketball operations Donnie Walsh said in the ESPN report that New York did the sign-and-trade as a “courtesy to Amare, who didn’t want to leave Phoenix with nothing.”


Also, did you overlook this:

“The CBA is in the back of my mind,” Anthony said. “But as far as being afraid to play this out, I’m not. If that’s what it’s going to take, then so be it. I’m with that. I know in the back of my mind what the CBA is up for, what we’re up for dealing with the lockout, things like that. So as long as I know that, my decision will be my decision.”

Asked if he’d be willing to take the risk of passing on the extension and facing the unknown of post-lockout free agency, Anthony said, “Yeah, I mean whether it’s playing this year out and then going back to the drawing table, sitting down with Denver and trying to figure it out, or whether it’s to move on, I’m with that.”

“If I sit here and tell you I’m willing to lose $15 or $20 million, then I’d be lying to you,” Anthony said. “But at the same time, this has never been about the money. In my career so far, I think I’ve made enough money. Now I can focus on just trying to win a championship. That’s the only thing that’s on my plate and on my mind right now.”

Nothing has changed for Anthony, who all along has only considered signing a three-year, $65 million extension with the Knicks or Nuggets – though a person familiar with the strategy being employed by his agents at Creative Artists Agency recently told CBSSports.com that CAA has been consistent since the summer in advising the Nuggets that he won’t re-sign with them. As for Anthony himself, he refuted a previously published report that Knicks star Amar’e Stoudemire had recently texted him urging him to join forces in New York.

“I read that, that he supposedly texted me or something like that,” Anthony said. “I didn’t get it. I didn’t get that text.”

http://ken-berger.blogs.cbssports.com/m ... 3/27330708

I think it's very clear that Melo will sign with us out right even if he LOSES A GUARANTEED YEAR.

He's keeping tabs on games. His business manager attended the last Miami game. Lebron told him that going to NY would be his best chance to get through Miami. I am sure he heard about Mozz's last game. This team is YOUNG, it's where he considers HOME, it's the Knicks, we have an owner who will spend the most he can to improve the team AND Melo can re-up again when his contract is over... You are making more about this extra year than I've heard anyone this year when discussing Melo. It's not an issue and Melo is not about to hamper his future team to get it...

[K_ick_God]

Let's start with the 6th year issue. Please understand that there may never be a sixth year with the new CBA. It may be 3/4 years. It may be 4/5 years. That is the reason I stated that it will be x/x+1 years. Melo is taking a risk, a calculated one of course, to face much shorter contracts in the new CBA.

If the money is not a concern for Melo, I think you are absolutely right. We might as well trade whoever we will trade for. Melo may as well accept the veteran minimum.

I think you really are failing to understand the significance of the extra year. You completely ignored my examples of course. LBJ/Bosh/Lee all got that sixth year by involving in a S&T. Miami did not show the finger to Toronto. They gave two first round picks. They wanted to give what LBJ wanted. The extra year that is worth 20+ million. We may already need to ask Melo to face the uncertainty, sign below the max contract and it seems like you also want him to give that extra year away too. Think about what you are saying. Suppose Denver comes to you, says we want your '11 and '14 pick, Mozgov, involve in the S&T for Chandler (whether it is a third team or direcly), and we will do the S&T. You expect us to say screw you Denver? You expect us to spit on Melo's face tell him to go f*ck himself? And Melo has been consistent on this. He is willing to wait and risk the FA market. He also several times stated that he is not willing to leave 20 million on the table. Can you blame the guy? I don't.

And please stop with this Walsh gifted them the trade exception nonsense. First, Walsh is not an idiot. He understands he will do business with these guys again. Second, we actually did benefit from the trade. Amare's first year salary was lowered and his raises were adjusted so that he still makes 100 million but starts a bit lower. That gave us couple of hundred K under the cap which helped us give Mozgov what he is making.

I personally believe Melo will be a Knick. Before the deadline or in the summer. But I also believe that you will be in a big surprise with the amount of assets we will end up giving or the bad contracts we will be taking on. Melo will not come for free.

Using exaggerations in your argument surely get your point across. Just cause moocow says that the extra year may not be a dealbreaker for Melo doesn't mean that he'd also be willing to sign for the vet min.

Why do you keep pointing out what Miami gave up with LeBron/Bosh, and ignore what we gave up to Amar'e, or what Orlando gave up to Seattle for Rashard Lewis (who did get his extra 6th year)? In both cases, nothing but a 2nd round pick + TPE was given up (and in our case, that 2nd rd pick is TOP 55 protected, practically worthless).

Now Denver wouldn't S&T Melo for just a 2nd rd pick, mainly because the TPE is worthless to them, unlike Phoenix or Seattle in the previous examples. But I really don't see us giving up more than say a future 1st + a throw-in like Walker or AR or draft rights to our 2011 pick. Unless Melo is flat out demanding we get him his 6th year, and refuses to sign with us otherwise, Denver simply doesn't have the leverage to ask for much more. If they're demanding Gallo + 2 picks for example, we just tell Melo outright, "look, Denver's asking price in a S&T is too high -- if you sign outright with us, we can re-extend you after 3 years."

Miami's situation was different. For one, several reports before FA stated that Bosh would only leave in a S&T, as he wanted his money and didn't want to leave Toronto high and dry. LeBron probably felt the same way in regards to Cleveland, but if Pat Riley told him straight out, "look, we can't work out a S&T with Cleveland cause they're asking too much, will you sign outright with us," do you think LeBron would've refused and go back to the Cavs?

Moreover, the key distinction with Miami was that LBJ and Bosh's agents likely demanded they get their 6th year/max raises as consideration for taking a paycut to accommodate Miller and Haslem on the roster. And Pat Riley, who already got commitments from LBJ and Bosh, probably could care less about throwing away future 1sts like candy.

After all of this, Melo might prefer an extra year but I think he'll be more grateful than anything that he's making 85% or more of what any Max makes PER YEAR ... which I bet is exactly how it shakes out. Actually, 85% is very conservative ... I think it will be more like 95%.

[Context]

, we just tell Melo outright, "look, Denver's asking price in a S&T is too high -- if you sign outright with us, we can re-extend you after 3 years."

but if Pat Riley told him straight out, "look, we can't work out a S&T with Cleveland cause they're asking too much, will you sign outright with us," do you think LeBron would've refused and go back to the Cavs?

Seren, Are you trying to tell me you believe that if Melo was presented with the ABOVE situation he would say know and resign in Denver?

[seren]

And please stop with this Walsh gifted them the trade exception nonsense. First, Walsh is not an idiot. He understands he will do business with these guys again.

I personally believe Melo will be a Knick. Before the deadline or in the summer. But I also believe that you will be in a big surprise with the amount of assets we will end up giving or the bad contracts we will be taking on. Melo will not come for free.

In fact, Knicks president of basketball operations Donnie Walsh said in the ESPN report that New York did the sign-and-trade as a “courtesy to Amare, who didn’t want to leave Phoenix with nothing.”


Also, did you overlook this:

“The CBA is in the back of my mind,” Anthony said. “But as far as being afraid to play this out, I’m not. If that’s what it’s going to take, then so be it. I’m with that. I know in the back of my mind what the CBA is up for, what we’re up for dealing with the lockout, things like that. So as long as I know that, my decision will be my decision.”

Asked if he’d be willing to take the risk of passing on the extension and facing the unknown of post-lockout free agency, Anthony said, “Yeah, I mean whether it’s playing this year out and then going back to the drawing table, sitting down with Denver and trying to figure it out, or whether it’s to move on, I’m with that.”

“If I sit here and tell you I’m willing to lose $15 or $20 million, then I’d be lying to you,” Anthony said. “But at the same time, this has never been about the money. In my career so far, I think I’ve made enough money. Now I can focus on just trying to win a championship. That’s the only thing that’s on my plate and on my mind right now.”

Nothing has changed for Anthony, who all along has only considered signing a three-year, $65 million extension with the Knicks or Nuggets – though a person familiar with the strategy being employed by his agents at Creative Artists Agency recently told CBSSports.com that CAA has been consistent since the summer in advising the Nuggets that he won’t re-sign with them. As for Anthony himself, he refuted a previously published report that Knicks star Amar’e Stoudemire had recently texted him urging him to join forces in New York.

“I read that, that he supposedly texted me or something like that,” Anthony said. “I didn’t get it. I didn’t get that text.”

http://ken-berger.blogs.cbssports.com/m ... 3/27330708

I think it's very clear that Melo will sign with us out right even if he LOSES A GUARANTEED YEAR.

He's keeping tabs on games. His business manager attended the last Miami game. Lebron told him that going to NY would be his best chance to get through Miami. I am sure he heard about Mozz's last game. This team is YOUNG, it's where he considers HOME, it's the Knicks, we have an owner who will spend the most he can to improve the team AND Melo can re-up again when his contract is over... You are making more about this extra year than I've heard anyone this year when discussing Melo. It's not an issue and Melo is not about to hamper his future team to get it...

I am skipping the first post. I already said. We benefited from the deal. Plus you keep good relationships. That is a given.

Melo says what I have been saying. He is taking risks. He will be an FA. He will probably be a Knick by the summer. I don't think he will be too happy if we tell him we won't engage in S&T so he won't get his 20 million because we don't like Denver's GM or we don't want to give up on Fields. Or since you mentioned Mozgov. I mean think about it for a second. Denver GM comes to you and tells he wants to do a S&T. He wants Mozgov. How do you say no? Somebody has to really explain this to me. How can you explain Melo, we would rather hold onto Mozgov so take it or leave it? How do you do that? I mean really.

[seren]

, we just tell Melo outright, "look, Denver's asking price in a S&T is too high -- if you sign outright with us, we can re-extend you after 3 years."

but if Pat Riley told him straight out, "look, we can't work out a S&T with Cleveland cause they're asking too much, will you sign outright with us," do you think LeBron would've refused and go back to the Cavs?

Seren, Are you trying to tell me you believe that if Melo was presented with the ABOVE situation he would say know and resign in Denver?

Well, if you put it into a take it or leave it when actually your GM can do the deal with ease, he would resign with Denver. Absolutely. I am a 100% on this. These things are also about recruiting. It is not a great recruiting move if you tell him he has to leave 20 million on the table because we can't give away Fields. Why should he sign with a club that would rather keep some role players rather than going all out for him?

[moocow007]

And please stop with this Walsh gifted them the trade exception nonsense. First, Walsh is not an idiot. He understands he will do business with these guys again.

I personally believe Melo will be a Knick. Before the deadline or in the summer. But I also believe that you will be in a big surprise with the amount of assets we will end up giving or the bad contracts we will be taking on. Melo will not come for free.

In fact, Knicks president of basketball operations Donnie Walsh said in the ESPN report that New York did the sign-and-trade as a “courtesy to Amare, who didn’t want to leave Phoenix with nothing.”


Also, did you overlook this:

“The CBA is in the back of my mind,” Anthony said. “But as far as being afraid to play this out, I’m not. If that’s what it’s going to take, then so be it. I’m with that. I know in the back of my mind what the CBA is up for, what we’re up for dealing with the lockout, things like that. So as long as I know that, my decision will be my decision.”

Asked if he’d be willing to take the risk of passing on the extension and facing the unknown of post-lockout free agency, Anthony said, “Yeah, I mean whether it’s playing this year out and then going back to the drawing table, sitting down with Denver and trying to figure it out, or whether it’s to move on, I’m with that.”

“If I sit here and tell you I’m willing to lose $15 or $20 million, then I’d be lying to you,” Anthony said. “But at the same time, this has never been about the money. In my career so far, I think I’ve made enough money. Now I can focus on just trying to win a championship. That’s the only thing that’s on my plate and on my mind right now.”

Nothing has changed for Anthony, who all along has only considered signing a three-year, $65 million extension with the Knicks or Nuggets – though a person familiar with the strategy being employed by his agents at Creative Artists Agency recently told CBSSports.com that CAA has been consistent since the summer in advising the Nuggets that he won’t re-sign with them. As for Anthony himself, he refuted a previously published report that Knicks star Amar’e Stoudemire had recently texted him urging him to join forces in New York.

“I read that, that he supposedly texted me or something like that,” Anthony said. “I didn’t get it. I didn’t get that text.”

http://ken-berger.blogs.cbssports.com/m ... 3/27330708

I think it's very clear that Melo will sign with us out right even if he LOSES A GUARANTEED YEAR.

He's keeping tabs on games. His business manager attended the last Miami game. Lebron told him that going to NY would be his best chance to get through Miami. I am sure he heard about Mozz's last game. This team is YOUNG, it's where he considers HOME, it's the Knicks, we have an owner who will spend the most he can to improve the team AND Melo can re-up again when his contract is over... You are making more about this extra year than I've heard anyone this year when discussing Melo. It's not an issue and Melo is not about to hamper his future team to get it...

I am skipping the first post. I already said. We benefited from the deal. Plus you keep good relationships. That is a given.

Melo says what I have been saying. He is taking risks. He will be an FA. He will probably be a Knick by the summer. I don't think he will be too happy if we tell him we won't engage in S&T so he won't get his 20 million because we don't like Denver's GM or we don't want to give up on Fields. Or since you mentioned Mozgov. I mean think about it for a second. Denver GM comes to you and tells he wants to do a S&T. He wants Mozgov. How do you say no? Somebody has to really explain this to me. How can you explain Melo, we would rather hold onto Mozgov so take it or leave it? How do you do that? I mean really.

Say no NOW? You probably wouldn't. But that's because there's actually a benefit to getting Melo now (at least on paper) considering the Knicks would like to win sooner and get the Melo-Stoudemire era underway faster. But the longer you wait the less useful it is and when you get to the point where there really is no official tie between Melo and Denver (which is what happens if he's forced to opt out of his contract...assuming he goes ahead with it of course) beyond that extra year. Can they? Sure? But there's no guarantee that will happen...which...again...is the reason why holding out until the summer is absolutely a gigantic risk. The longer this delays and the closer the knicks get to not needing Denver to agree to moving Melo to NY, the less reason they have of giving up assets. Would/could they? Sure. But the risk of getting nothing increases.