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Kidknick! wrote:Can't score, can barely distribute at a median rate and can't stay healthy. Frank is teasing you all. He's dunzo.
NYKAL wrote:ny-n-md wrote:Cookies4Life wrote:It's a weird double standard as most mention Frank's poor offense as the reason he doesn't get minutes.
How about Knox? He's just as bad offensively, the only difference is he had terrible shot selection last year and was OK with hoisting up 10-15 FGA's on a nightly basis.
If Frank isn't feeling it offensively, he usually limits himself to only a few shots in the game. He won't shoot you out of a game whereas Knox had the green light to do whatever he wanted to offensively.
Kevin didn't do much else besides shoot a lot last year. He's a poor rebounder, extremely poor defender and wasn't getting anyone else involved offensively.
At least Frank plays defense and he gets other guys involved on the offensive end. He plays the game the right way. So why exactly did Knox see so many minutes last year while Frank was compiling a bunch of DNP-CD's? I'm not trying to divide the forum between these 2 guys, I just don't understand how someone with Frank's talents defensively is riding the pine a good majority of the season while Knox starts every game.
I'm genuinely curious if anyone can give me a logical response to this question, thanks in advance...
I see your point but I think the position they play factors into it. Who was Knox competing against for SF minutes? The opportunity was greater for him with minutes vs Frank getting backcourt minutes with all of the other players.
yeah, I agree with the argument that Knox was able to get more pt because of the lack of competition at his position. All Frank had to do was show he was better than Burke or Mud even before DSJ got here and he never came close to separating himself from those 2. I've always said I like him but, I think at this point he'll only see pt if one of our guards is being absolutely torched.
jvsimonetti0514 wrote:hatnlvr wrote:Chanel Bomber wrote:Frank averaged 21 minutes per game last season. That is significant playing time. They played him at the point and as a wing. He underperformed in both roles. Mitch averaged less minutes than Frank and he balled out. Yes, I can blame Frank for his slow progression and I will.
You can say you believe in Frank's upside and thus he deserves minutes. Or that as a rule of thumb young players need to play no matter how it impacts winning. But to act as if the coaching staff didn't give Frank a chance, or that he shouldn't be held accountable for his own failures, makes 0 sense and doesn't reflect reality in my opinion. The breastfeeding needs to stop.
You mention Trier (who cares about his age by the way?), he had a stellar .564 TS% in his rookie season. Frank's .417 TS% as a sophomore was the worst among all rotation players in the NBA. The gap between the two is just enormous and more significant than whatever edge Frank has on defense.
Edit: I agree about Knox, considering how inefficient he was and how selfishly he played, he didn't deserve more minutes than Frank, especially since he was a sieve on defense as well.
So in an age of analytics and a team that swears they are using analytics, every analytic said Frank played best at PG with the ball in his hands, but before even coaching him one game Fiz was already talking about making him a wing and taking the ball out of his hands
So when we say we are developing young players (which is why Knox & Trier had no leash and were allowed to play through everything), we put a ball and chain on the 2nd youngest player on the roster and placed him last on every depth chart? We say he should be accountable as a 19 year old player in his 2nd year but no one else should? Why does Knox get to have the lowest defensive efficiency on the planet with no leash? This argument only works if applied equally across the roster.
Mitch didn't play more because the dude skipped a year of ball and what flat out in horrible shape! They had to monitor his minutes because his tongue was wagging on the floor within 30 seconds of stepping onto the court.
Our best defensive units last year all included Frank (Frank/Dot & Mitch), but I guess since he isn't an AAU dash to the basket player none of that should actually be worth anything.
Citation on this because I severely doubt this is true. I do remember we averaged more passes per game at point but that’s about it. This stat better not have anything to do with him being on the floor with Timmy was averaging 26 ppg because his hot start really inflated a lot of early season line up combos.
GONYK wrote:NYKAL wrote:ny-n-md wrote:I see your point but I think the position they play factors into it. Who was Knox competing against for SF minutes? The opportunity was greater for him with minutes vs Frank getting backcourt minutes with all of the other players.
yeah, I agree with the argument that Knox was able to get more pt because of the lack of competition at his position. All Frank had to do was show he was better than Burke or Mud even before DSJ got here and he never came close to separating himself from those 2. I've always said I like him but, I think at this point he'll only see pt if one of our guards is being absolutely torched.
The team played better with Frank over those two. The stats back that up.
In Fizdale's eyes, that mattered less than Frank's ability as an individual scorer.
hatnlvr wrote:jvsimonetti0514 wrote:hatnlvr wrote:
So in an age of analytics and a team that swears they are using analytics, every analytic said Frank played best at PG with the ball in his hands, but before even coaching him one game Fiz was already talking about making him a wing and taking the ball out of his hands
So when we say we are developing young players (which is why Knox & Trier had no leash and were allowed to play through everything), we put a ball and chain on the 2nd youngest player on the roster and placed him last on every depth chart? We say he should be accountable as a 19 year old player in his 2nd year but no one else should? Why does Knox get to have the lowest defensive efficiency on the planet with no leash? This argument only works if applied equally across the roster.
Mitch didn't play more because the dude skipped a year of ball and what flat out in horrible shape! They had to monitor his minutes because his tongue was wagging on the floor within 30 seconds of stepping onto the court.
Our best defensive units last year all included Frank (Frank/Dot & Mitch), but I guess since he isn't an AAU dash to the basket player none of that should actually be worth anything.
Citation on this because I severely doubt this is true. I do remember we averaged more passes per game at point but that’s about it. This stat better not have anything to do with him being on the floor with Timmy was averaging 26 ppg because his hot start really inflated a lot of early season line up combos.
Just google it's your friend. Sooooo many articles posted about this the past two years
"Frank’s best performances have come when he is running the point, allowing him to handle the rock. His favorite rhythm shot is that pull up from the free throw line."
https://theknickswall.com/optimizing-best-lineups-frank-ntilikina/
https://dailyknicks.com/2018/04/27/new-york-knicks-frank-ntilikina-stunning-statistic/
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/19682011/numbers-offer-hint-french-import-frank-ntilikina-nba-potential
GONYK wrote:NYKAL wrote:ny-n-md wrote:I see your point but I think the position they play factors into it. Who was Knox competing against for SF minutes? The opportunity was greater for him with minutes vs Frank getting backcourt minutes with all of the other players.
yeah, I agree with the argument that Knox was able to get more pt because of the lack of competition at his position. All Frank had to do was show he was better than Burke or Mud even before DSJ got here and he never came close to separating himself from those 2. I've always said I like him but, I think at this point he'll only see pt if one of our guards is being absolutely torched.
The team played better with Frank over those two. The stats back that up.
In Fizdale's eyes, that mattered less than Frank's ability as an individual scorer.
NYKAL wrote:GONYK wrote:NYKAL wrote:
yeah, I agree with the argument that Knox was able to get more pt because of the lack of competition at his position. All Frank had to do was show he was better than Burke or Mud even before DSJ got here and he never came close to separating himself from those 2. I've always said I like him but, I think at this point he'll only see pt if one of our guards is being absolutely torched.
The team played better with Frank over those two. The stats back that up.
In Fizdale's eyes, that mattered less than Frank's ability as an individual scorer.
I'm going to disagree with you there. From what I saw, he never outshined any of them.
NYKAL wrote:GONYK wrote:NYKAL wrote:
yeah, I agree with the argument that Knox was able to get more pt because of the lack of competition at his position. All Frank had to do was show he was better than Burke or Mud even before DSJ got here and he never came close to separating himself from those 2. I've always said I like him but, I think at this point he'll only see pt if one of our guards is being absolutely torched.
The team played better with Frank over those two. The stats back that up.
In Fizdale's eyes, that mattered less than Frank's ability as an individual scorer.
I'm going to disagree with you there. From what I saw, he never outshined any of them.
jvsimonetti0514 wrote:hatnlvr wrote:jvsimonetti0514 wrote:
Citation on this because I severely doubt this is true. I do remember we averaged more passes per game at point but that’s about it. This stat better not have anything to do with him being on the floor with Timmy was averaging 26 ppg because his hot start really inflated a lot of early season line up combos.
Just google it's your friend. Sooooo many articles posted about this the past two years
"Frank’s best performances have come when he is running the point, allowing him to handle the rock. His favorite rhythm shot is that pull up from the free throw line."
https://theknickswall.com/optimizing-best-lineups-frank-ntilikina/
https://dailyknicks.com/2018/04/27/new-york-knicks-frank-ntilikina-stunning-statistic/
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/19682011/numbers-offer-hint-french-import-frank-ntilikina-nba-potential
You make a claim you should be able to back that up, I shouldn't have to go prove a negative. Oh by the way, none of those articles say he's our best point guard. The ESPN article is stats from his play in the French league, The Knicks Wall article is an opinion piece about what lines up the writer would like to see Frank play in, and the dailyknicks is just his defensive stats.
GONYK wrote:NYKAL wrote:GONYK wrote:
The team played better with Frank over those two. The stats back that up.
In Fizdale's eyes, that mattered less than Frank's ability as an individual scorer.
I'm going to disagree with you there. From what I saw, he never outshined any of them.
I'm not sure we're disagreeing. He didn't outshine them individually.
I'm saying the team performed much better when he was on the floor vs. them.
And, like I said, the stats prove it
The Knicks ended the season with the starting Frank unit being our best defensive lineup by far, and our 2nd best offensive unit out of the lineups that played over 90 mins together.
Just for reference, the Bucks had the best DEF rating in the league at 104.9.
The Knicks with Frank and Mitch's DEF rating was 100.5
I have no doubt that it was our best defensive line up but Vonleh and Hardaway in October/November weren't the same players as they were in January/February. Like I don't think Frank was the reason for the 107.7 OffRTG jvsimonetti0514 wrote:GONYK wrote:NYKAL wrote:
I'm going to disagree with you there. From what I saw, he never outshined any of them.
I'm not sure we're disagreeing. He didn't outshine them individually.
I'm saying the team performed much better when he was on the floor vs. them.
And, like I said, the stats prove it
The Knicks ended the season with the starting Frank unit being our best defensive lineup by far, and our 2nd best offensive unit out of the lineups that played over 90 mins together.
Just for reference, the Bucks had the best DEF rating in the league at 104.9.
The Knicks with Frank and Mitch's DEF rating was 100.5
FWIW that tweet is incorrect that line up has a 7.2 net rating in 94 minutes. Is there anyway to look up when those minutes were played? Using NBA.com advanced stat is terribly confusing
hatnlvr wrote:jvsimonetti0514 wrote:hatnlvr wrote:
Just google it's your friend. Sooooo many articles posted about this the past two years
"Frank’s best performances have come when he is running the point, allowing him to handle the rock. His favorite rhythm shot is that pull up from the free throw line."
https://theknickswall.com/optimizing-best-lineups-frank-ntilikina/
https://dailyknicks.com/2018/04/27/new-york-knicks-frank-ntilikina-stunning-statistic/
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/19682011/numbers-offer-hint-french-import-frank-ntilikina-nba-potential
You make a claim you should be able to back that up, I shouldn't have to go prove a negative. Oh by the way, none of those articles say he's our best point guard. The ESPN article is stats from his play in the French league, The Knicks Wall article is an opinion piece about what lines up the writer would like to see Frank play in, and the dailyknicks is just his defensive stats.
Reread what I said, I never said he was our best PG, I clearly said His best position is PG
and this is an internet forum, technically I don't need to backup anything, but I did your homework for you and even quoted it from the article.
Chanel Bomber wrote:hatnlvr wrote:jvsimonetti0514 wrote:
You make a claim you should be able to back that up, I shouldn't have to go prove a negative. Oh by the way, none of those articles say he's our best point guard. The ESPN article is stats from his play in the French league, The Knicks Wall article is an opinion piece about what lines up the writer would like to see Frank play in, and the dailyknicks is just his defensive stats.
Reread what I said, I never said he was our best PG, I clearly said His best position is PG
and this is an internet forum, technically I don't need to backup anything, but I did your homework for you and even quoted it from the article.
It's ironic because you are setting him up to fail by declaring that he's a point guard when it's obvious that he's not.
You want the organization to help him salvage his NBA career? He needs to improve his catch-and-shoot % and learn how to cut and move without the ball. If he can do that and occasionally act as a secondary ball-handler, then he can carve out a nice and productive NBA career. Otherwise, he's toast. He might not even see the end of his rookie contract if we keep expecting him to be a PG. It's time to adjust.
Frank is a willing passer because he can't create any offense for himself. He can't shoot off the dribble, he can't blow by his defender with his lack of burst and basic handle, he can't finish at the rim anyway and he can't post up. He's unselfish by default, not because he has some higher understanding of basketball. Now as a passer he's extremely calculated and conservative. He doesn't make too many mistakes as a passer, but that's also because he lacks creativity and he doesn't take risks. He's extremely risk-averse. He's the one player in the jazz band who can't improvise. That's not what you want from a point guard. Point guards create. I saw Frank turn the ball over in a 3-on-1 fast-break in Washington last season for heaven's sake.
Also I didn't see a lot of relevant quantitative data regarding his NBA career in the articles you posted. I think the biggest takeaway from last season if you want to see the glass half-full is that he was part of some of the most productive 5-man line-ups, which means he could potentially be part of winning (or neutral) line-ups. This is relevant, even though as a collective stat, there is some noise and the one constant was actually Noah Vonleh. My point is, it's one thing to acknowledge that he can be part of winning line-ups, it's another thing entirely to infer that he was driving the success of these line-ups.
Chanel Bomber wrote:hatnlvr wrote:jvsimonetti0514 wrote:
You make a claim you should be able to back that up, I shouldn't have to go prove a negative. Oh by the way, none of those articles say he's our best point guard. The ESPN article is stats from his play in the French league, The Knicks Wall article is an opinion piece about what lines up the writer would like to see Frank play in, and the dailyknicks is just his defensive stats.
Reread what I said, I never said he was our best PG, I clearly said His best position is PG
and this is an internet forum, technically I don't need to backup anything, but I did your homework for you and even quoted it from the article.
It's ironic because you are setting him up to fail by declaring that he's a point guard when it's obvious that he's not.
You want the organization to help him salvage his NBA career? He needs to improve his catch-and-shoot % and learn how to cut and move without the ball. If he can do that and occasionally act as a secondary ball-handler, then he can carve out a nice and productive NBA career. Otherwise, he's toast. He might not even see the end of his rookie contract if we keep expecting him to be a PG. It's time to adjust.
Frank is a willing passer because he can't create any offense for himself. He can't shoot off the dribble, he can't blow by his defender with his lack of burst and basic handle, he can't finish at the rim anyway and he can't post up. He's unselfish by default, not because he has some higher understanding of basketball. Now as a passer he's extremely calculated and conservative. He doesn't make too many mistakes as a passer, but that's also because he lacks creativity and he doesn't take risks. He's extremely risk-averse. He's the one player in the jazz band who can't improvise. That's not what you want from a point guard. Point guards create. I saw Frank turn the ball over in a 3-on-1 fast-break in Washington last season for heaven's sake.
Also I didn't see a lot of relevant quantitative data regarding his NBA career in the articles you posted. I think the biggest takeaway from last season if you want to see the glass half-full is that he was part of some of the most productive 5-man line-ups, which means he could potentially be part of winning (or neutral) line-ups. This is relevant, even though as a collective stat, there is some noise and the one constant was actually Noah Vonleh. My point is, it's one thing to acknowledge that he can be part of winning line-ups, it's another thing entirely to infer that he was driving the success of these line-ups.
Chanel Bomber wrote:hatnlvr wrote:jvsimonetti0514 wrote:
You make a claim you should be able to back that up, I shouldn't have to go prove a negative. Oh by the way, none of those articles say he's our best point guard. The ESPN article is stats from his play in the French league, The Knicks Wall article is an opinion piece about what lines up the writer would like to see Frank play in, and the dailyknicks is just his defensive stats.
Reread what I said, I never said he was our best PG, I clearly said His best position is PG
and this is an internet forum, technically I don't need to backup anything, but I did your homework for you and even quoted it from the article.
It's ironic because you are setting him up to fail by declaring that he's a point guard when it's obvious that he's not.
You want the organization to help him salvage his NBA career? He needs to improve his catch-and-shoot % and learn how to cut and move without the ball. If he can do that and occasionally act as a secondary ball-handler, then he can carve out a nice and productive NBA career. Otherwise, he's toast. He might not even see the end of his rookie contract if we keep expecting him to be a PG. It's time to adjust.
Frank is a willing passer because he can't create any offense for himself. He can't shoot off the dribble, he can't blow by his defender with his lack of burst and basic handle, he can't finish at the rim anyway and he can't post up. He's unselfish by default, not because he has some higher understanding of basketball. Now as a passer he's extremely calculated and conservative. He doesn't make too many mistakes as a passer, but that's also because he lacks creativity and he doesn't take risks. He's extremely risk-averse. He's the one player in the jazz band who can't improvise. That's not what you want from a point guard. Point guards create. I saw Frank turn the ball over in a 3-on-1 fast-break in Washington last season for heaven's sake.
Also I didn't see a lot of relevant quantitative data regarding his NBA career in the articles you posted. I think the biggest takeaway from last season if you want to see the glass half-full is that he was part of some of the most productive 5-man line-ups, which means he could potentially be part of winning (or neutral) line-ups. This is relevant, even though as a collective stat, there is some noise and the one constant was actually Noah Vonleh. My point is, it's one thing to acknowledge that he can be part of winning line-ups, it's another thing entirely to infer that he was driving the success of these line-ups.
seren wrote:The same reason Frank didn’t get the minutes he should have is the reason why we haven’t given any long term extension to our rookie contracts: We have constant turnover in FO and coaching and every new regime essentially wants to erase the previous one.
Here is what will happen next summer after we finish the season under 25 wins playing veterans: FO will be fired and the new FO will trade away every single player under contract brought by the current FO. Rinse and repeat.
hatnlvr wrote:Chanel Bomber wrote:hatnlvr wrote:
Reread what I said, I never said he was our best PG, I clearly said His best position is PG
and this is an internet forum, technically I don't need to backup anything, but I did your homework for you and even quoted it from the article.
It's ironic because you are setting him up to fail by declaring that he's a point guard when it's obvious that he's not.
You want the organization to help him salvage his NBA career? He needs to improve his catch-and-shoot % and learn how to cut and move without the ball. If he can do that and occasionally act as a secondary ball-handler, then he can carve out a nice and productive NBA career. Otherwise, he's toast. He might not even see the end of his rookie contract if we keep expecting him to be a PG. It's time to adjust.
Frank is a willing passer because he can't create any offense for himself. He can't shoot off the dribble, he can't blow by his defender with his lack of burst and basic handle, he can't finish at the rim anyway and he can't post up. He's unselfish by default, not because he has some higher understanding of basketball. Now as a passer he's extremely calculated and conservative. He doesn't make too many mistakes as a passer, but that's also because he lacks creativity and he doesn't take risks. He's extremely risk-averse. He's the one player in the jazz band who can't improvise. That's not what you want from a point guard. Point guards create. I saw Frank turn the ball over in a 3-on-1 fast-break in Washington last season for heaven's sake.
Also I didn't see a lot of relevant quantitative data regarding his NBA career in the articles you posted. I think the biggest takeaway from last season if you want to see the glass half-full is that he was part of some of the most productive 5-man line-ups, which means he could potentially be part of winning (or neutral) line-ups. This is relevant, even though as a collective stat, there is some noise and the one constant was actually Noah Vonleh. My point is, it's one thing to acknowledge that he can be part of winning line-ups, it's another thing entirely to infer that he was driving the success of these line-ups.
Actually what you are saying is doing exactly what you are accusing me of doing. The numbers say he plays best at PG, yet everyone wants to move him to a new position without even giving him the opportunity to develop in what he has been doing best.
I agree, Frank cannot blow by his defender (he doesn't have that first step) but not every PG can, that doesn't mean he needs to go take up another profession or should go learn a new position.
My argument has always been that this administration puts him on a short leash and doesn't allow him to play through mistakes and develop. Not for nothing but Dot is also on a short leash and gets DNP's and forgotten for no apparent reason.
If you're developing then develop! This is selective choice of who they develop and how. Frank = forgotten man, yet Fiz tells Mud in his press conference "we're gonna get you right"?
