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OT: Cops kill George Floyd

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Re: OT: Cops kill George Floyd 

Post#1381 » by HarthorneWingo » Mon Jun 15, 2020 5:12 pm

E-Balla wrote:
Clyde_Style wrote:
E-Balla wrote:Are you planning on defending storefronts with a gun or just supporting those who do?

I can ask insulting questions too Clyde you don't want that smoke.


It wasn't an insult.

It was what you were advocating.

If you condone it, what is the difference between you committing arson and applauding someone else doing it?

If you do it, do you believe you're committing a crime or being a freedom fighter or both?

If someone else does it, do you organize a fund to bail them out or just tell us it was justified and let them rot?

There is either some kind of unity to your thought or there isn't and I'm asking you these questions because it still feels like you can justify pretty much anything, but it has no basis other than revenge.

And how selective are you at the end of the day?

When your house or apartment gets burned down do you say that's OK I was in the way of a just cause and that you're cool with sleeping under a bridge after that?

I just find this willingness to excuse anybody else's suffering to justify payback for 400 years of suffering to be more selfish than selfless.

You didn't respond to a single point I made, accused me of telling you to shut up when I didn't, and called me an arson and you wanna say it's not an insult? Don't play. Address my post if you don't want me to keep being hostile because I'm not one for the goalpost moving and lying.

Again in this post you're lying about actions to justify holding your POV. I'm lucky I didn't inherit the generational Stockholm syndrome that plagues us. I won't sit here while you try to invoke that illness for your own moral dilemnas you have from the sideline.


I was actually scrolling upwards, having just posted a comment. So, I read the first few lines of your post from the bottom up and knew exactly who you were responding to.

:lol:
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Re: OT: Cops kill George Floyd 

Post#1382 » by Clyde_Style » Mon Jun 15, 2020 5:20 pm

robillionaire wrote:Article about property damage from leftist slant

“Why do privileged liberals care more about property damage than black lives?

“Riots,” wrote Martin Luther King Jr., “are the language of the unheard.” King is one of many civil rights radicals whose politics have been rewritten, his memory whittled into a sanitized, non-threatening corporate version fit for a Google Doodle. Liberals remember that he had a dream, even if they forget his sermons on sanitation worker strikes.

As #blacklivesmatter protests grip the country, new political fissures have opened. Predictably, there are those on the right who dismiss racist police violence as a non-issue. On the left, however, the situation is more interesting: there is a dividing line between the outraged, and the moderates who balk at what they see as “violent protests.” Broken windows, smashed storefronts, and public transit disruptions upset the liberal mindset. Their huffiness is on display in the comments sections of subtly-slanted news sites like SFist:
The protests are justified, they write. The “looting” is not. Where’s the line?

The line wavers depending on what you think the function of the police is. The working class and radicals alike tend to see police as the foot-soldiers of the 1%—defenders of a propertied-owning class that owns and controls the poor, whether through rent, wage-slavery, or the prison-industrial complex. (At Millions March Oakland, one protest sign read: “A black man is worth zero to a corporation when free; in jail, the same man is worth $40,000 a year.”) In the ghetto, the police act as repo man, debt collector and security guard rolled into one; yet these free-of-charge services are available only to the gentry, not the serfs. Landlord wants to gentrify or collect more rent? The police will carry out the eviction on their behalf, no questions asked. When a poor black man turns to theft to survive a system that’s disenfranchised him? The police defend store owners over the starving.
Yet the middle- (and upper-) class liberals—including vocal, computer-adept sophists that flood comments sections—don’t experience police in the same way. Where systemic racism against people of color thrives, the reverse—special treatment for the rich and white—does too. Yet this special treatment is invisible from their perspective, internalized as normal. White liberals’ own experience of policing is mediated by this fact.
What does the white liberal see when she sees windows breaking? When she sees Berkeley cops beating protesters for smashing storefronts? Does she see what the rioters see—an economic system that calls upon authority to protect panes of glass with deadly force, while annihilating black and brown lives with the same fervor? Do they see an asphalt wasteland of minimum wage service jobs, exploitative employers salivating at the chance to prey on an underclass that has no other option? Do they see a genocidal nation-state that isn’t worth saving, that could kill their children with impunity at any minute, that indeed, kills a black person every 28 hours?

I don’t think that’s what the white liberal sees. They see “chaos” creeping towards their property line. They see a system wither—a system that, for all its flaws, benefits them—and fear for their belongings. They see a mass of dark-skinned faces taking things that they, in their own words, would pay their “hard-earned money” for. Through racist codewords, they call out those that chip away at their own chains.

When the system benefits you, it’s tough to recognize it as wrong.

There is a racism lurking in the liberal worldview. Their complicity reinforces and keeps this racist system running. They see racism as a carnivorous beast separate from them, when in fact they are saddled on its back.

For movement-builders, the challenge is getting liberals to hear the voice of the unheard.”


Except myself and many others who do not think looting accomplishes anything are not suburban housewives huffing about our hedges being trampled by black people gone wild.

Very reductive.

And very sensationalist prose too. Look at this:

They see a mass of dark-skinned faces taking things that they, in their own words, would pay their “hard-earned money” for. Through racist codewords, they call out those that chip away at their own chains.


WTF? That's hysteria projecting itself onto others

If anything, I see this kind of pseudo-intellectual talk about class warfare and white anxiety being used in an attempt to sweep away more nuanced thoughts that don't jive with shrill and inflexible notions of economic justice. Lots of virtue signaling being used to shush

And get something through your head for once.

I'M A PROGRESSIVE who is for collective benefits to accrue for all. I happen to believe that laws and systems are how you get those benefits and you being so shrill about everything just convinces me you're more into the drama of politics than you are into the reality of hard work which is creative, not destructive.

2010 just said they believe you have to reclaim and rebuild cities left for dead. That's real talk. That's what self-determination will look like, but you won't have that option if you don't take back control of the existing democratic processes and vote in reformers. That takes this election and then many elections after that to make the progress necessary. That's why we're called Progressives.
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Re: OT: Cops kill George Floyd 

Post#1383 » by mpharris36 » Mon Jun 15, 2020 5:28 pm

E-Balla wrote:
mpharris36 wrote:
E-Balla wrote:Last I checked Minneapolis PD is still collecting paychecks so nah.


yeah Minnesota is a blue state. They support unions.

I am a big proponent against unions. They cover up for a lot of sucky workers. In this case they make a lot of police officers untouchable after countless infractions.

Same goes for suck a** teachers. There are teachers (my wife is one) that can't stand being protected by a union. She pays dues and they protect sucky teachers that are teaching our young and they are like teflon they have no place in the work place in my opinion.

The problem is suck a** cops can kill you. Some of these other professions suck a** employees just suck at there job. But to not be able to review and fire bad employees for incompetence in a field where it is the utmost importance to have good people in a position of authority blows.

I'm frfr socialist so I love unions for people that aren't dogs of the government. They don't deserve unions the same way school admins don't.


I can respect your viewpoint. I probably land more on the libertarian side. I just hate when bad people are protected just because. If you are bad at your job (especially a high profile job) then you shouldn't be protected by a larger group .

Also if someone is really good at there job they should be compensated for that.

Just like LeBron James and Kyle Korver shouldn't be paid the same because they have the same amount of years of service. A good police officer or a good teacher shouldn't be paid the same as a **** one just because they have the same amount of years of service.
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Re: OT: Cops kill George Floyd 

Post#1384 » by E-Balla » Mon Jun 15, 2020 5:36 pm

mpharris36 wrote:
E-Balla wrote:
mpharris36 wrote:
yeah Minnesota is a blue state. They support unions.

I am a big proponent against unions. They cover up for a lot of sucky workers. In this case they make a lot of police officers untouchable after countless infractions.

Same goes for suck a** teachers. There are teachers (my wife is one) that can't stand being protected by a union. She pays dues and they protect sucky teachers that are teaching our young and they are like teflon they have no place in the work place in my opinion.

The problem is suck a** cops can kill you. Some of these other professions suck a** employees just suck at there job. But to not be able to review and fire bad employees for incompetence in a field where it is the utmost importance to have good people in a position of authority blows.

I'm frfr socialist so I love unions for people that aren't dogs of the government. They don't deserve unions the same way school admins don't.


I can respect your viewpoint. I probably land more on the libertarian side. I just hate when bad people are protected just because. If you are bad at your job (especially a high profile job) then you shouldn't be protected by a larger group .

Also if someone is really good at there job they should be compensated for that.

Just like LeBron James and Kyle Korver shouldn't be paid the same because they have the same amount of years of service. A good police officer or a good teacher shouldn't be paid the same as a **** one just because they have the same amount of years of service.

Let your wife move to a state without a strong teacher's union and let's see how much she hates them then when there's nothing protecting her from the whims of the state and administration.

The idea of getting paid based off how good you are at your job is absurd on its face too but this isn't a "debate the failings of the market" thread so imma let that slide. Just know that specific anti union rhetoric you used was birthed by the government attempting to break up unions by convincing white workers they existed to unfairly make black workers earn more than them. I work in the private sector and believe me our salaries aren't at all based on who does the best/most work.
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Re: OT: Cops kill George Floyd 

Post#1385 » by Clyde_Style » Mon Jun 15, 2020 5:37 pm

E-Balla wrote:
Clyde_Style wrote:
E-Balla wrote:I got a story for you Clyde. A story about how my kind of naive little bro went to his first protest 2 days ago. I'm stuck in home because I just turned 26 and don't have insurance until the 1st so I'm not risking a thing but it's a good thing I didn't show because I would've spent most of my time with the organizers trying to shift the focus.

There's a store about 30 mins from my crib that sells Confederate memorabilia, nooses (a few they've advertised as classic and used), KKK patches, lynching postcards (many not the famous images but personal ones taken by the father of the owner)... Name it they got it. Hell they have a colored wall inside the establishment with a picture of every non white person that's ever been foolish enough to walk through Kennesaw's historic district.

All these people gathered to protest the store. To bring awareness to their actions. They now have more support than ever. That store is now healthier than ever.

**** a message let's talk goals, what would accomplish our goals quicker; a week of peaceful protests, empathy (he sent videos of people going over there to hug them), humanity, or a molotov cocktail?

I'm not trying to convince anyone I'm human. They know that already. This isn't ignorance it's 400 years of malice.


Yeah, I rented a house and when I went to my landlord's store I discovered they sold Nazi artifacts and had all kinds of Sambo antiques for sale. He's a racist, a Trump nut hugger and I'm pretty sure he is in a network of creepy white dudes that do some kind of Nazi occult magic. IOW, some demented chit.

I didn't burn their store down. Not while I rented their house, nor after I moved out. I'm half Jewish. I'm not a big fan of the Fuhrer.

In Germany, Nazi swastikas are outlawed. They are not here.

So far, I'm still an adherent to free speech laws which to me means that people have a right to express themselves and behave like total scumbags as long as they don't touch me, inflict damage to body or property or do anything that affects me directly. Having my feelings hurt does not count as an action even though I thoroughly agree that words are weapons and can wound and harm people. I still believe you take the good with the bad if you believe in preserving free speech.

So leave the store alone please. I believe you they are POS people. I also believe they have a right to be complete and utter trash, because I believe in laws that are meant to protect us from them burning you down or you burning them down. The problem with the police is that we have Nazis and White Nationalists on the police forces out there thugging. They are not doing their job and we need to bring them to justice using the systems that exist. And we will.

I'm just saying this is an attitude that's easy to have when you're on the sidelines. This holier than thou attitude we have is the death of us literally.


I'm actually siding with you, but arguing about the means and saying violence is not going to get the results you want. It may satisfy some feelings, but it won't gain greater freedoms.

I've already covered this in the past with 2010. I never said that self-defense is unjustified in the moment if that is what you need to do to survive.

But torching a building is not self-defense. Frame it however you like to justify that act of arson and it does not make me holier than thou to point out why it is both wrong to do and self-defeating.

Implying I don't get it, because it is not my experience just doesn't cut it. The principles of respecting others, including their property, either is held true for all men or women regardless of race, or it is not. That some people really, really suck and hate other people of a different skin color is sadly part of that deal. You don't want that deal maybe, but I don't see any kind of utopia around the corner no matter how well things go from here on out.

When we lose the right to vote and we are ruled by Trumps with no constitutional constraints, then that's when you resort to guerilla warfare. And you only do that then so you can re-establish some kinds of democratic processes.

If there isn't a record black vote this time around then that's a serious problem. And if anyone says politics won't change anything then they're a lost cause, because you are not going to get justice and freedom by going vigilante in a country full of weapons like the USA.
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Re: OT: Cops kill George Floyd 

Post#1386 » by mpharris36 » Mon Jun 15, 2020 5:42 pm

E-Balla wrote:
mpharris36 wrote:
E-Balla wrote:I'm frfr socialist so I love unions for people that aren't dogs of the government. They don't deserve unions the same way school admins don't.


I can respect your viewpoint. I probably land more on the libertarian side. I just hate when bad people are protected just because. If you are bad at your job (especially a high profile job) then you shouldn't be protected by a larger group .

Also if someone is really good at there job they should be compensated for that.

Just like LeBron James and Kyle Korver shouldn't be paid the same because they have the same amount of years of service. A good police officer or a good teacher shouldn't be paid the same as a **** one just because they have the same amount of years of service.

Let your wife move to a state without a strong teacher's union and let's see how much she hates them then when there's nothing protecting her from the whims of the state and administration.

The idea of getting paid based off how good you are at your job is absurd on its face too but this isn't a "debate the failings of the market" thread so imma let that slide. Just know that specific anti union rhetoric you used was birthed by the government attempting to break up unions by convincing white workers they existed to unfairly make black workers earn more than them. I work in the private sector and believe me our salaries aren't at all based on who does the best/most work.



by no means do I want to derail this thread from the importance of why we are here for the social injustices. So I will just say we can agree to disagree on the value of unions.

My point, to get back on topic, is bad police officers are protected by them. If we are looking for an end game here. What all this protesting and reform needs to be about. There needs to be stronger review processes for officers they need to be more accountable for prior interactions to hopefully weed out and stop the bad ones before they are put in a position to kill someone (especially in this case racist ones) with a prior history of violence in there past.
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Re: OT: Cops kill George Floyd 

Post#1387 » by ellobo » Mon Jun 15, 2020 5:43 pm

mpharris36 wrote:
E-Balla wrote:
thebuzzardman wrote:
Isn't that what Minny is doing, effectively?

Last I checked Minneapolis PD is still collecting paychecks so nah.


yeah Minnesota is a blue state. They support unions.

I am a big proponent against unions. They cover up for a lot of sucky workers. In this case they make a lot of police officers untouchable after countless infractions.

Same goes for suck a** teachers. There are teachers (my wife is one) that can't stand being protected by a union. She pays dues and they protect sucky teachers that are teaching our young and they are like teflon they have no place in the work place in my opinion.

The problem is suck a** cops can kill you. Some of these other professions suck a** employees just suck at there job. But to not be able to review and fire bad employees for incompetence in a field where it is the utmost importance to have good people in a position of authority blows.


First, I want to thank everyone in this thread for engaging in this dialog and to the mods for participating and letting it play out.

I'm listening to all the different voices, and trying to add to the conversation where I can, and it's genuinely helping me process everything that's going on.

As a teacher, though, I can tell you that I am thankful every day that I am part of a union. I would not be in the profession and could not do my job without the power of collective bargaining to define working conditions (including compensation) and define and enforce due process and accountability to the terms of our CBA. Unions protect teachers' individual academic integrity and professional autonomy from political bull**** and administrative idiocy.

My wife is a non-union professional and I can't believe all the petty, arbitrary, political, unjust, dysfunctional **** that she has to put up with.

For every incompetent or ****bag teacher who gets protected by collectively bargained due process, there's a multitude of dedicated professionals who are empowered to do their jobs the right way.

This is NOT an endorsement or defense of police unions AT ALL.

But being part of a union has been an overwhelming net positive in my professional career.
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Re: OT: Cops kill George Floyd 

Post#1388 » by mpharris36 » Mon Jun 15, 2020 5:50 pm

ellobo wrote:
mpharris36 wrote:
E-Balla wrote:Last I checked Minneapolis PD is still collecting paychecks so nah.


yeah Minnesota is a blue state. They support unions.

I am a big proponent against unions. They cover up for a lot of sucky workers. In this case they make a lot of police officers untouchable after countless infractions.

Same goes for suck a** teachers. There are teachers (my wife is one) that can't stand being protected by a union. She pays dues and they protect sucky teachers that are teaching our young and they are like teflon they have no place in the work place in my opinion.

The problem is suck a** cops can kill you. Some of these other professions suck a** employees just suck at there job. But to not be able to review and fire bad employees for incompetence in a field where it is the utmost importance to have good people in a position of authority blows.


First, I want to thank everyone in this thread for engaging in this dialog and to the mods for participating and letting it play out.

I'm listening to all the different voices, and trying to add to the conversation where I can, and it's genuinely helping me process everything that's going on.

As a teacher, though, I can tell you that I am thankful every day that I am part of a union. I would not be in the profession and could not do my job without the power of collective bargaining to define working conditions (including compensation) and define and enforce due process and accountability to the terms of our CBA. Unions protect teachers' individual academic integrity and professional autonomy from political bull**** and administrative idiocy.

My wife is a non-union professional and I can't believe all the petty, arbitrary, political, unjust, dysfunctional **** that she has to put up with.

For every incompetent or ****bag teacher who gets protected by collectively bargained due process, there's a multitude of dedicated professionals who are empowered to do their jobs the right way.

This is NOT an endorsement or defense of police unions AT ALL.

But being part of a union has been an overwhelming net positive in my professional career.


I would love to take this off to another thread and discuss further because I don't want to derail the overall message that is George Floyd and the other senseless killings on the hands of the police.

I do appreciate your viewpoint and you have seemed to have an overall positive impact. I work for a CPG company in a non unionized profession and for the most part have felt I am in control of my own success and salary and wouldn't want it any other way. I guess its just our own personal dealings that could make us feel one way or the other.

My wife works in an inner city school district and see's a bunch of employees that have been there for years just not care enough. That makes me sad that our youth is not getting the proper education and there is simply nothing anyone can do about it. But I digress or I would to hear more on this in a different thread if you would like to discuss further.
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Re: OT: Cops kill George Floyd 

Post#1389 » by HarthorneWingo » Mon Jun 15, 2020 6:07 pm

mpharris36 wrote:
E-Balla wrote:
mpharris36 wrote:
I can respect your viewpoint. I probably land more on the libertarian side. I just hate when bad people are protected just because. If you are bad at your job (especially a high profile job) then you shouldn't be protected by a larger group .

Also if someone is really good at there job they should be compensated for that.

Just like LeBron James and Kyle Korver shouldn't be paid the same because they have the same amount of years of service. A good police officer or a good teacher shouldn't be paid the same as a **** one just because they have the same amount of years of service.

Let your wife move to a state without a strong teacher's union and let's see how much she hates them then when there's nothing protecting her from the whims of the state and administration.

The idea of getting paid based off how good you are at your job is absurd on its face too but this isn't a "debate the failings of the market" thread so imma let that slide. Just know that specific anti union rhetoric you used was birthed by the government attempting to break up unions by convincing white workers they existed to unfairly make black workers earn more than them. I work in the private sector and believe me our salaries aren't at all based on who does the best/most work.



by no means do I want to derail this thread from the importance of why we are here for the social injustices. So I will just say we can agree to disagree on the value of unions.

My point, to get back on topic, is bad police officers are protected by them. If we are looking for an end game here. What all this protesting and reform needs to be about. There needs to be stronger review processes for officers they need to be more accountable for prior interactions to hopefully weed out and stop the bad ones before they are put in a position to kill someone (especially in this came racist ones) with a prior history of violence in there past.


Unions, which I theoretically believe in strongly, could use a make over as well. There are no panaceas out there and many of our institutions need to be put under a microscope so that they are not misused either.
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Re: OT: Cops kill George Floyd 

Post#1390 » by robillionaire » Mon Jun 15, 2020 6:20 pm

mpharris36 wrote:
E-Balla wrote:
mpharris36 wrote:
yeah Minnesota is a blue state. They support unions.

I am a big proponent against unions. They cover up for a lot of sucky workers. In this case they make a lot of police officers untouchable after countless infractions.

Same goes for suck a** teachers. There are teachers (my wife is one) that can't stand being protected by a union. She pays dues and they protect sucky teachers that are teaching our young and they are like teflon they have no place in the work place in my opinion.

The problem is suck a** cops can kill you. Some of these other professions suck a** employees just suck at there job. But to not be able to review and fire bad employees for incompetence in a field where it is the utmost importance to have good people in a position of authority blows.

I'm frfr socialist so I love unions for people that aren't dogs of the government. They don't deserve unions the same way school admins don't.


I can respect your viewpoint. I probably land more on the libertarian side. I just hate when bad people are protected just because. If you are bad at your job (especially a high profile job) then you shouldn't be protected by a larger group .

Also if someone is really good at there job they should be compensated for that.

Just like LeBron James and Kyle Korver shouldn't be paid the same because they have the same amount of years of service. A good police officer or a good teacher shouldn't be paid the same as a **** one just because they have the same amount of years of service.


in reality not having organized labor and collective bargaining just leads to everybody being underpaid across the board. what good is it to make a little more than someone who you may be better than when everybody across the board should be making many times more based on productivity

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Re: OT: Cops kill George Floyd 

Post#1391 » by robillionaire » Mon Jun 15, 2020 6:21 pm

HarthorneWingo wrote:
mpharris36 wrote:
E-Balla wrote:Let your wife move to a state without a strong teacher's union and let's see how much she hates them then when there's nothing protecting her from the whims of the state and administration.

The idea of getting paid based off how good you are at your job is absurd on its face too but this isn't a "debate the failings of the market" thread so imma let that slide. Just know that specific anti union rhetoric you used was birthed by the government attempting to break up unions by convincing white workers they existed to unfairly make black workers earn more than them. I work in the private sector and believe me our salaries aren't at all based on who does the best/most work.



by no means do I want to derail this thread from the importance of why we are here for the social injustices. So I will just say we can agree to disagree on the value of unions.

My point, to get back on topic, is bad police officers are protected by them. If we are looking for an end game here. What all this protesting and reform needs to be about. There needs to be stronger review processes for officers they need to be more accountable for prior interactions to hopefully weed out and stop the bad ones before they are put in a position to kill someone (especially in this came racist ones) with a prior history of violence in there past.


Unions, which I theoretically believe in strongly, could use a make over as well. There are no panaceas out there and many of our institutions need to be put under a microscope so that they are not misused either.


Well we know that many times the leadership goes rogue and makes decisions that rank and file members oppose, so yeah maybe it's time for an overhaul
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Re: OT: Cops kill George Floyd 

Post#1392 » by Pointgod » Mon Jun 15, 2020 7:14 pm

E-Balla wrote:
2010 wrote:
Clyde_Style wrote:
I agree with all of that. That's why black power must result in a black vote or else you don't have the power to guide the policy reforms necessary. As Phish says, you have to dismantle a whole lot of the system and start over. That will not happen without a show of power at the ballot box. Bullets won't accomplish that. Only a collective conscience that preserves democratic processes will get those results.

The real solution is to get everyone to register to vote and show up on election day. If every person here got one extra person to register to vote that would help a great deal.


I feel you. My mentality is still being forged. So while I will never rebuke defensive/violent protest, property damage, and looting – as a last resort (cuz I still view it as being a very effective call for awareness); you have made effective points about the end game. So I am with you.

We need to maximize our presence at the polls, and subsequently get people who will advocate for the plight of blacks in America. Then once that is established, advocate for the plight for all Americans.

But we cannot have the 2nd without the 1st. Cuz that illusionary mindset is what has us in this current predicament.

Black people voted from 1980 to 2019. What progress that lead to? Don't fall for the trickery, voting isn't a fix for black issues. It'll fix our issues we have as Americans and you should vote as an American to fix issues affecting all of us but politicians won't do **** for black people we don't fight for. They'll shutdown the government for DACA, we gotta shutdown society to stop being murdered.


But have black people voted in sustained and consistent fashion over decades. Have they voted in off year elections? Have they overwhelmingly voted and ran in local elections. The reason the right caters to those religious freaks (relax people in religious myself) is because they can single handedly deliver votes. The intensity of the pro life movement and Evangelical Christians is scary but informative. I believe I read somewhere there are more black people in the South than other areas. I think black people engaged, focused and targeted can absolutely make political change.

Now this becomes a chicken or the egg situation. Are black people in certain geographies not political heavy weights because they don’t vote or is it that the parties haven’t engaged them enough to give them a reason to vote. Politicians will do what’s in their interests. If black votes could put a Republican in office, then believe me these soulless ghouls will be out marching with Black Lives Matter. Same thing with Democrats, show that Democrats can’t take their votes for granted and vote for Republicans. Staying at home or not being engaged gets you zero political power.

One thing I don’t understand is why there isn’t a lobby for the issues affecting the black community? We all know lobbyists and money talks. You could control GOP politicians like puppets if you paid them enough, these people have no scruples.
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Re: OT: Cops kill George Floyd 

Post#1393 » by Clyde_Style » Mon Jun 15, 2020 7:26 pm

Pointgod wrote:
E-Balla wrote:
2010 wrote:
I feel you. My mentality is still being forged. So while I will never rebuke defensive/violent protest, property damage, and looting – as a last resort (cuz I still view it as being a very effective call for awareness); you have made effective points about the end game. So I am with you.

We need to maximize our presence at the polls, and subsequently get people who will advocate for the plight of blacks in America. Then once that is established, advocate for the plight for all Americans.

But we cannot have the 2nd without the 1st. Cuz that illusionary mindset is what has us in this current predicament.

Black people voted from 1980 to 2019. What progress that lead to? Don't fall for the trickery, voting isn't a fix for black issues. It'll fix our issues we have as Americans and you should vote as an American to fix issues affecting all of us but politicians won't do **** for black people we don't fight for. They'll shutdown the government for DACA, we gotta shutdown society to stop being murdered.


But have black people voted in sustained and consistent fashion over decades. Have they voted in off year elections? Have they overwhelmingly voted and ran in local elections. The reason the right caters to those religious freaks (relax people in religious myself) is because they can single handedly deliver votes. The intensity of the pro life movement and Evangelical Christians is scary but informative. I believe I read somewhere there are more black people in the South than other areas. I think black people engaged, focused and targeted can absolutely make political change.

Now this becomes a chicken or the egg situation. Are black people in certain geographies not political heavy weights because they don’t vote or is it that the parties haven’t engaged them enough to give them a reason to vote. Politicians will do what’s in their interests. If black votes could put a Republican in office, then believe me these soulless ghouls will be out marching with Black Lives Matter. Same thing with Democrats, show that Democrats can’t take their votes for granted and vote for Republicans. Staying at home or not being engaged gets you zero political power.

One thing I don’t understand is why there isn’t a lobby for the issues affecting the black community? We all know lobbyists and money talks. You could control GOP politicians like puppets if you paid them enough, these people have no scruples.


Yes

If 2020 isn't the year that the black vote rocks the nation then I don't know if it ever will

That's why I'm saying: You want to make a difference?

Yes? Then redirect your energies from promoting the value of violence and get a clipboard and go register new voters. Revolutionary talk ain't chit if you don't get those new voters coming in.
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Re: OT: Cops kill George Floyd 

Post#1394 » by E-Balla » Mon Jun 15, 2020 7:46 pm

Clyde_Style wrote:I'm actually siding with you, but arguing about the means and saying violence is not going to get the results you want. It may satisfy some feelings, but it won't gain greater freedoms.

Prove that. Historically. I know my history, do you? Name one thing gained without violence. One right given in America that wasn't fought for.

Who the hell cares about violence against clumps of earth built into 4 walls and a roof?

I've already covered this in the past with 2010. I never said that self-defense is unjustified in the moment if that is what you need to do to survive.

But torching a building is not self-defense. Frame it however you like to justify that act of arson and it does not make me holier than thou to point out why it is both wrong to do and self-defeating.

Implying I don't get it, because it is not my experience just doesn't cut it.

Anyone else black in this thread:

Does it cut it for me to say Clyde doesn't get it because he's a bystander? Because I feel like it does I wanna by sure I'm not tripping first though.

The principles of respecting others, including their property, either is held true for all men or women regardless of race, or it is not. That some people really, really suck and hate other people of a different skin color is sadly part of that deal. You don't want that deal maybe, but I don't see any kind of utopia around the corner no matter how well things go from here on out.

When we lose the right to vote and we are ruled by Trumps with no constitutional constraints, then that's when you resort to guerilla warfare. And you only do that then so you can re-establish some kinds of democratic processes.

If there isn't a record black vote this time around then that's a serious problem. And if anyone says politics won't change anything then they're a lost cause, because you are not going to get justice and freedom by going vigilante in a country full of weapons like the USA.

We've been ruled by Trumps for 400 years with no constitutional constraints. Trumps created the constitution. **** the constitution. **** the vote. Never once in my lineage has anyone gained a right from the power of voting. Never once in my lineage have I gained a right that wasn't fought for. Violence is necessary when words fall of deaf ears and I'm not dumb enough to look at the history of violence and it's accomplishments and say "that's not the way the way is to do what we've done every time we've lost."

I know my enemy, that kumbaya **** sounds good until you use those brain cells. We're a kidnapped people being told by our captors how we should behave in their system that was specifically built in order to remove our power and agency as a people. The one people in America that are Americans without someone in their family lineage or them personally deciding to be an American is us. I'll ride for my people all day every day but **** that unity nonsense it's only been used to take take take.
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Re: OT: Cops kill George Floyd 

Post#1395 » by E-Balla » Mon Jun 15, 2020 7:47 pm

mpharris36 wrote:
E-Balla wrote:
mpharris36 wrote:
I can respect your viewpoint. I probably land more on the libertarian side. I just hate when bad people are protected just because. If you are bad at your job (especially a high profile job) then you shouldn't be protected by a larger group .

Also if someone is really good at there job they should be compensated for that.

Just like LeBron James and Kyle Korver shouldn't be paid the same because they have the same amount of years of service. A good police officer or a good teacher shouldn't be paid the same as a **** one just because they have the same amount of years of service.

Let your wife move to a state without a strong teacher's union and let's see how much she hates them then when there's nothing protecting her from the whims of the state and administration.

The idea of getting paid based off how good you are at your job is absurd on its face too but this isn't a "debate the failings of the market" thread so imma let that slide. Just know that specific anti union rhetoric you used was birthed by the government attempting to break up unions by convincing white workers they existed to unfairly make black workers earn more than them. I work in the private sector and believe me our salaries aren't at all based on who does the best/most work.



by no means do I want to derail this thread from the importance of why we are here for the social injustices. So I will just say we can agree to disagree on the value of unions.

My point, to get back on topic, is bad police officers are protected by them. If we are looking for an end game here. What all this protesting and reform needs to be about. There needs to be stronger review processes for officers they need to be more accountable for prior interactions to hopefully weed out and stop the bad ones before they are put in a position to kill someone (especially in this case racist ones) with a prior history of violence in there past.

The endgame needs to be about just getting rid of the police as an institution. 99% of police work should not be done by police. The beat cop should be extinct.
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Re: OT: Cops kill George Floyd 

Post#1396 » by Clyde_Style » Mon Jun 15, 2020 7:56 pm

E-Balla wrote:
Clyde_Style wrote:I'm actually siding with you, but arguing about the means and saying violence is not going to get the results you want. It may satisfy some feelings, but it won't gain greater freedoms.

Prove that. Historically. I know my history, do you? Name one thing gained without violence. One right given in America that wasn't fought for.

Who the hell cares about violence against clumps of earth built into 4 walls and a roof?

I've already covered this in the past with 2010. I never said that self-defense is unjustified in the moment if that is what you need to do to survive.

But torching a building is not self-defense. Frame it however you like to justify that act of arson and it does not make me holier than thou to point out why it is both wrong to do and self-defeating.

Implying I don't get it, because it is not my experience just doesn't cut it.

Anyone else black in this thread:

Does it cut it for me to say Clyde doesn't get it because he's a bystander? Because I feel like it does I wanna by sure I'm not tripping first though.


The principles of respecting others, including their property, either is held true for all men or women regardless of race, or it is not. That some people really, really suck and hate other people of a different skin color is sadly part of that deal. You don't want that deal maybe, but I don't see any kind of utopia around the corner no matter how well things go from here on out.

When we lose the right to vote and we are ruled by Trumps with no constitutional constraints, then that's when you resort to guerilla warfare. And you only do that then so you can re-establish some kinds of democratic processes.

If there isn't a record black vote this time around then that's a serious problem. And if anyone says politics won't change anything then they're a lost cause, because you are not going to get justice and freedom by going vigilante in a country full of weapons like the USA.

We've been ruled by Trumps for 400 years with no constitutional constraints. Trumps created the constitution. **** the constitution. **** the vote. Never once in my lineage has anyone gained a right from the power of voting. Never once in my lineage have I gained a right that wasn't fought for. Violence is necessary when words fall of deaf ears and I'm not dumb enough to look at the history of violence and it's accomplishments and say "that's not the way the way is to do what we've done every time we've lost."

I know my enemy, that kumbaya **** sounds good until you use those brain cells. We're a kidnapped people being told by our captors how we should behave in their system that was specifically built in order to remove our power and agency as a people. The one people in America that are Americans without someone in their family lineage or them personally deciding to be an American is us. I'll ride for my people all day every day but **** that unity nonsense it's only been used to take take take.


What's this dog whistling Clyde in the thread crap?

You're as racist as anyone then.

I'm trying my best to deal with your hate, but you're so full of rage that you just want to burn everything down.

So you're right, we're not on the same side.
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Re: OT: Cops kill George Floyd 

Post#1397 » by K_ick_God » Mon Jun 15, 2020 7:59 pm

What about this. No more guns available to cops making stops like this. They're either locked away in the car or not available at all, depending on the type of "cop."

That way, in the case of the Atlanta shooting, he would have had to explore more options besides just Taser and then shoot three times. Call ahead, let him go, there is some danger to public safety by people running from cops, obviously, but it's one that can be managed.

Locking the gun away would at least give the cops time to pause and evaluate, and have to take the gun out of the car.

Obviously would not have helped George Floyd. At all. And arguably the less you arm cops, the more they would need to do things like lean on someone to subdue him. So it's a complicated subject.

But removing guns from much of police work could help de-escalate overall. And it's a powerful statement about guns and how dangerous they are. 2nd Amendment or not, lethality of guns is a huge problem.

In the case of BLM, it would require a much more nuanced and thoughtful approach to dealing with minor crimes.
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Re: OT: Cops kill George Floyd 

Post#1398 » by E-Balla » Mon Jun 15, 2020 7:59 pm

Pointgod wrote:But have black people voted in sustained and consistent fashion over decades.

Umm... Yes????? I wouldn't be shocked by this question if it wasn't you of all people asking this I thought you'd know better.

Have they voted in off year elections?

Yes...

Have they overwhelmingly voted and ran in local elections.

Yes!

This can't be an argument I'm seriously having in 2020 with Pointgod of all people...

The reason the right caters to those religious freaks (relax people in religious myself) is because they can single handedly deliver votes. The intensity of the pro life movement and Evangelical Christians is scary but informative. I believe I read somewhere there are more black people in the South than other areas. I think black people engaged, focused and targeted can absolutely make political change.

How do you make a change when no one else supports you? Like let's be real here do Asians and Latinos vote? No? Do they have it better than us in the system mostly because black people do vote and support their causes? Yep. Democrats will shutdown the government for DACA specifically because they can't rely on the votes of Latinos but you tell them you wanna know what they'll do for black people and all they got for you is that if you don't vote for them, "you ain't black," but that's on us? We're supposed to hold that? GA's out here tossing our votes out while Dems do nothing because they want to pretend the Democracy is healthy and that's on us?

Now this becomes a chicken or the egg situation. Are black people in certain geographies not political heavy weights because they don’t vote or is it that the parties haven’t engaged them enough to give them a reason to vote. Politicians will do what’s in their interests. If black votes could put a Republican in office, then believe me these soulless ghouls will be out marching with Black Lives Matter. Same thing with Democrats, show that Democrats can’t take their votes for granted and vote for Republicans. Staying at home or not being engaged gets you zero political power.

One thing I don’t understand is why there isn’t a lobby for the issues affecting the black community? We all know lobbyists and money talks. You could control GOP politicians like puppets if you paid them enough, these people have no scruples.

Look at the numbers bro. Black people outvoted white people with Obama on the ballot. Black southerners in local elections (where the candidates are likely to be black) outvote everyone in America. Black people have shown time and time again that even with voter suppression we'll show up just about as much as white people and that with candidates we want on the ballot we'd show up MORE than other people.

The reason we get nothing is they want us to have nothing. There is no solidarity we haven't fought to gain, we haven't forced them to show. That's a fact and it's always been one. The reason Democrats do nothing for us is this must vote mindset only we seem to have. No other group votes for a politician explicitly promising them nothing out of obligation but us and it's made it so that politically we accomplish nothing through voting. I'm not saying don't vote, but if your only goal is fixing issues for us and you think voting will move the needle even a little bit you need your head checked or to pick up some books. There's no chicken and the egg here we've known how the lack of care for black people in politics started since we were kids and learned about slavery for the first time.
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Re: OT: Cops kill George Floyd 

Post#1399 » by GONYK » Mon Jun 15, 2020 8:02 pm

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Re: OT: Cops kill George Floyd 

Post#1400 » by E-Balla » Mon Jun 15, 2020 8:04 pm

Clyde_Style wrote:
E-Balla wrote:
Clyde_Style wrote:I'm actually siding with you, but arguing about the means and saying violence is not going to get the results you want. It may satisfy some feelings, but it won't gain greater freedoms.

Prove that. Historically. I know my history, do you? Name one thing gained without violence. One right given in America that wasn't fought for.

Who the hell cares about violence against clumps of earth built into 4 walls and a roof?

I've already covered this in the past with 2010. I never said that self-defense is unjustified in the moment if that is what you need to do to survive.

But torching a building is not self-defense. Frame it however you like to justify that act of arson and it does not make me holier than thou to point out why it is both wrong to do and self-defeating.

Implying I don't get it, because it is not my experience just doesn't cut it.

Anyone else black in this thread:

Does it cut it for me to say Clyde doesn't get it because he's a bystander? Because I feel like it does I wanna by sure I'm not tripping first though.


The principles of respecting others, including their property, either is held true for all men or women regardless of race, or it is not. That some people really, really suck and hate other people of a different skin color is sadly part of that deal. You don't want that deal maybe, but I don't see any kind of utopia around the corner no matter how well things go from here on out.

When we lose the right to vote and we are ruled by Trumps with no constitutional constraints, then that's when you resort to guerilla warfare. And you only do that then so you can re-establish some kinds of democratic processes.

If there isn't a record black vote this time around then that's a serious problem. And if anyone says politics won't change anything then they're a lost cause, because you are not going to get justice and freedom by going vigilante in a country full of weapons like the USA.

We've been ruled by Trumps for 400 years with no constitutional constraints. Trumps created the constitution. **** the constitution. **** the vote. Never once in my lineage has anyone gained a right from the power of voting. Never once in my lineage have I gained a right that wasn't fought for. Violence is necessary when words fall of deaf ears and I'm not dumb enough to look at the history of violence and it's accomplishments and say "that's not the way the way is to do what we've done every time we've lost."

I know my enemy, that kumbaya **** sounds good until you use those brain cells. We're a kidnapped people being told by our captors how we should behave in their system that was specifically built in order to remove our power and agency as a people. The one people in America that are Americans without someone in their family lineage or them personally deciding to be an American is us. I'll ride for my people all day every day but **** that unity nonsense it's only been used to take take take.


What's this dog whistling Clyde in the thread crap?

You're as racist as anyone then.

I'm trying my best to deal with your hate, but you're so full of rage that you just want to burn everything down.

So you're right, we're not on the same side.

If you think it's racist I'm not taking perspectives of how to fight white supremacy from the very people that benefit from it that's on you. I call it not being dumb.

Nice to see in 5 responses to me you never addressed any of my points once and just got defensive though... If you could argue your viewpoint with an accurate telling of history you would but you don't want to say anything concrete and get pinned to it.

If you don't hate racism what does that make you? What does it mean you're fighting for? How much of your life have you spent reflecting on your personal race and how it changes your role in society? How long have you studied prior movements that were successful? Why do you feel it so necessary to complain about people mad at the system when the conversation topic is on the system itself? Why do you value property over human emotion?

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