OT: Is Dirk top 12 of all time??

[NormanTwain]

So in your opinion when did he start to exit his prime? The year after when his PPG dropped another 4 points making a total of 8 points in two years. Or do you have more bull**it reasoning?

Two recent examples - Dwight's FG attempts and PPG dropped when he joined the Lakers. Did he exit his prime? Bosh's FG attempts and PPG dropped when he joined the Heat. Did he exit his prime?

KG was less than 1 year removed from a Prime caliber year when he joined the Celtics. You really can't see how playing with a ball dominant player in Pierce, who was the #1 option, and another great player in Allen, while playing 6-7 less minutes per game than the 39-40 he used to average in Minnesota, and taking more than 3 fewer shots per game than the previous year, would result in fewer PPG?

~19 PPG on ~14 shots in Boston vs ~22.5 PPG on ~17.5 shots in Minny the year before. The year that he won his undeserved MVP, he took almost 20 shots a game.

And while his minutes were limited during the reg season in '07, he showed that he could still play big minutes in the playoffs in '08, when he was playing 38 MPG in 26 games (which is an abnormal amount in the post-season) and put up over 20 and 10 with 2 other great players, while playing tremendous individual and team defense, en route to a title and DPOY award.

Another factor was that he was being moved further and further away from the basket in Boston. He was taking less mid-range shots, and more face-up jumpers just inside the 3pt line. Being positioned so far from the basket, also resulted in fewer chances at taking it to the hole to draw fouls, and if you weren't watching KG settle for long difficult jumpers back then, you can simply go check his stats and see how drastically his FT attempts dropped in '08.

His offensive production dropped because he was no longer playing by himself with a couple decent players, but on a stacked team, in an offensive system that kept him outside of 16ft more often. This wasn't really an indication of him exiting his prime, rather just being utilized less on the offensive end, in order to allow him to be the constant anchor defensively.

Anyway, I'm spending a lot of time here. In my opinion, his prime ended abruptly at 32 in Feb '09 when he suffered the knee injury, and then came back too early and aggravated it.

FG%? Steve Nash at 37 years of age recorded his best FG% in his career... What was he in his prime at 37 also?

No one said anything about FG% having a direct correlation to prime. You said, "All his numbers were down... every single one of them." You were clearly mistaken. That case was already closed.

[NormanTwain]

Putting LeBron over Shaq, Duncan and Kobe is **** into their faces.

Sorry, but Kobe, who to me is a top 15 player, is not even in the discussion. He is significantly inferior to LeBron, Duncan, and Shaq, who are all clear top 10 players.

A strong case can be made for LeBron being ranked higher than Duncan + Shaq.

[spree2kawhi]

Putting LeBron over Shaq, Duncan and Kobe is **** into their faces.

Sorry, but Kobe, who to me is a top 15 player, is not even in the discussion. He is significantly inferior to LeBron, Duncan, and Shaq, who are all clear top 10 players.

A strong case can be made for LeBron being ranked higher than Duncan + Shaq.

Then please go make the case.

I'll go make mine for Bryant in the meantime. People here stick with Bird like it was sacrilege to claim otherwise and also have Olajuwon (who I agree is the most skilled center to ever play the game) above Bryant (who in his own right might very well be the most skilled player to ever play - regardless of position). However, Bryant won five NBA championships and owns the second highest regular season scoring average in the last 48 years (!) (35.4ppg in 05/06) - a season in which he was clearly robbed of one additional MVP award. And while everybody says, "He had Shaq to win championships for him", those two particular players mentioned above (and Shaq himself, too, of course) are treated like they've been alone on their teams.

I would also very much doubt that it would be very realistic to say Jerry West would have ever been an upgrade at the SG position over Kobe Bryant - yet virtually everybody including the OP seem to pick him higher... for sentimental reasons. After all, five NBA championships are five NBA championships and in a league more sophisticated and athletic than during the 70s, 80s and also early 90s Bryant's scoring has been the most glaring benchmark of dominance I could come up with. People keep saying Shaq was dominant, LeBron is dominant, Duncan was dominant, Ewing was dominant and what not. After all, those sentimental arguments really make me sick.

Now LeBron has won four MVPs and he now is one hell of a dominant player, but others have been just that, too. Certainly Kobe and certainly Duncan.

As for Duncan, he is a 4x champion and 2x MVP so I do not see any reason why LeBron (2x champion, 4x MVP) should have already overtaken him either. I would gladly wait and see until the upcoming playoffs unfold and then I'll be the first to eat my words... if he delivers.

I'll gladly go with Jordan, Wilt, Kareem and Russell ahead of Kobe and Magic (who are interchangable), but that's it. Then you have Bird, Duncan, Shaq and also LeBron coming in in any order. LeBron has a sky high ceiling and may end up the best ever, but for me he waits his turn until he continues to beat Duncan, George and Hibbert, Durant, Howard and Harden and also Melo again and again and again. Not one, not two, no... not.

[NormanTwain]

Then please go make the case.

Lot's of bias here; it will be tough to enlighten you, but I will try.

I'll go make mine for Bryant in the meantime. People here stick with Bird like it was sacrilege to claim otherwise and also have Olajuwon (who I agree is the most skilled center to ever play the game) above Bryant (who in his own right might very well be the most skilled player to ever play - regardless of position).

Kobe may very well be the most skilled player of All-time, and he is a tremendous scorer, no doubt, but being the most skilled, or scoring a certain amount of PPG, can't be the backbone of your case for one player over another, which is essentially what you're doing.

However, Bryant won five NBA championships and owns the second highest regular season scoring average in the last 48 years (!) (35.4ppg in 05/06) - a season in which he was clearly robbed of one additional MVP award. And while everybody says, "He had Shaq to win championships for him", those two particular players mentioned above (and Shaq himself, too, of course) are treated like they've been alone on their teams.

I'll quickly shut the door to your second highest regular season scoring average point. He chucked up 27 shots a game at 45% (a clear example of him being unable to make the players around him better ala LeBron, but rather more focused on getting his), and his 35.4 PPG, while very impressive (to a degree), is overshadowed by his post season failure. Truly an embarrassment, after having lobbied to get rid of Shaq, so that he could show what he could do by himself; and by himself, what he did was fail to carry his team to the playoffs one year, and got bounced in the first round the other 2 years, at his absolute peak.

You can't be serious about him deserving an MVP. Players on 7th and 8th seed teams, who turn out to be 1st round doormats, don't deserve MVP awards. He "MVP"d his way to a bottom seed and first round exit. Don't be absurd.

These 3 years right here, showed exactly what Kobe was capable of by himself.

96-97: 56-26 (with Shaq)
97-98: 61-21 (with Shaq)
98-99: 31-19 (with Shaq + lockout)
99-00: 67-15 (with Shaq)
00-01: 56-26 (with Shaq)
01-02: 58-24 (with Shaq)
02-03: 50-32 (with Shaq)
03-04: 56-26 (with Shaq)
04-05: 34-48 (Kobe Alone - Missed Playoffs)
05-06: 45-37 (Kobe Alone - Bounced in 1st Rd)
06-07: 42-40 (Kobe Alone - Bounced in 1st Rd)
07-08: 57-25 (with Pau)
08-09: 65-17 (with Pau)
09-10: 57-25 (with Pau)
10-11: 57-25 (with Pau)
11-12: 41-23 (with Pau + lockout)

I won't count the 2 recent injury riddled seasons.

With LeBron, the Cavs were on average, a 50+ win team, boasting multiple regular season records that compared to those of the Kobe + Shaq, and Kobe + Pau Lakers, without LeBron having a single player even close to the caliber of those 2 bigs, and LeBron has never lost in the 1st round (especially 2x in his prime like Kobe did).

Without LeBron, the Cavs are on average, a 22 win team.

That's the difference between a valuable player like LeBron, and a me-first volume shooter like Kobe.

Just to quickly make sure you don't say, "but LeBron played in the weak East..."

From 04-07, Kobe's Lakers' record vs the East was 45-45.
From 04-07, LeBron's Cavs' record vs the East was 91-65.

I would also very much doubt that it would be very realistic to say Jerry West would have ever been an upgrade at the SG position over Kobe Bryant - yet virtually everybody including the OP seem to pick him higher... for sentimental reasons.

Kobe is not ranked below West for me, so I won't bother saying anything here.

After all, five NBA championships are five NBA championships and in a league more sophisticated and athletic than during the 70s, 80s and also early 90s Bryant's scoring has been the most glaring benchmark of dominance I could come up with. People keep saying Shaq was dominant, LeBron is dominant, Duncan was dominant, Ewing was dominant and what not.

Now LeBron has won four MVPs and he now is one hell of a dominant player, but others have been just that, too. Certainly Kobe and certainly Duncan.

As for Duncan, he is a 4x champion and 2x MVP so I do not see any reason why LeBron (2x champion, 4x MVP) should have already overtaken him either. I would gladly wait and see until the upcoming playoffs unfold and then I'll be the first to eat my words... if he delivers.

I'll gladly go with Jordan, Wilt, Kareem and Russell ahead of Kobe and Magic (who are interchangable), but that's it. Then you have Bird, Duncan, Shaq and also LeBron coming in in any order. LeBron has a sky high ceiling and may end up the best ever, but for me he waits his turn until he continues to beat Duncan, George and Hibbert, Durant, Howard and Harden and also Melo again and again and again. Not one, not two, not...

Here is my criteria for rating players on an All-time scale...

MVPs, NBA Championships as a FMVP, DPOY awards, PER in the regular season and playoffs, WS per 48 in the regular season and in the playoffs, and lastly playoff success (sometimes I like to look into h2h stats in the reg/post season, and individual accolades as well like All-NBA and All-Defense selections, but those accolades don't really hold too much weight for me).

MVPs/FMVPs

We've already established that LeBron has 4 MVPs, to Kobe's 1, and that both have 2 FMVPs.

DPOY Awards

Neither have DPOY awards so that is a wash, though it must be said that LeBron was #2 in votes in 2013, and not just as a placeholder for a clear winner. Their defense in their primes is about of equal caliber, with LeBron separating himself by being able to guard positions that Kobe could not.

PER/Playoff PER/Overall PER

LeBron's top 5 PER seasons

1. 08-09: 31.7 (led the league)
2. 12-13: 31.6 (led the league)
3. 09-10: 31.1 (led the league)
4. 11-12: 30.7 (led the league)
5. 13-14: 29.4 (2nd to Durant's 30.1)

Kobe's top 5 PER seasons

1. 05-06: 28.0
2. 02-03: 26.2
3. 06-07: 26.1
4. 00-01: 24.5
5. 08-09: 24.4

As you can see, even Kobe's very best, doesn't quite match up to LeBron's worst. To be more specific, Kobe's best Reg season PER, would be 8th best for LeBron.

LeBron's playoff PER: 27.3 (3rd All-time)
Kobe's playoff PER: 22.4 (22nd All-time)

LeBron's career PER: 27.8 (2nd All-time - behind Jordan)
Kobe's career PER: 23.6 (20th All-time - behind Shaq (3rd) and Duncan (12th))

WS/48 & WS/48 in the Playoffs

LeBron's WS/48: .244 (5th All-Time)
Kobe's WS/48: .182 (34th All-Time)

LeBron's WS/48 in the playoffs: .208 (3rd All-Time)
Kobe's WS/48 in the playoffs: .157 (52nd All-Time)

Not much needs to be said here; the numbers speak for themselves.

Let's look at some stats for fun...

Here is Kobe's most impressive season, according to you...

45.0% FG on 27.2 shots - 41 mpg - 35.4 ppg - 5.3 rpg - 4.3 apg - 1.8 spg - 0.4 bpg (1st Rd exit)

And now here is Lebron's...

56.5% FG on 17.8 shots - 38 mpg - 26.8 ppg - 8.0 rpg - 7.3 apg - 1.7 spg - 0.9 bpg (won NBA title)

Now you may be impressed by Kobe's 35.4 PPG on a losing squad, but objectively speaking, LeBron's production and efficiency is in another league.

Let's take Kobe's best years - roughly '00-'01 -'12-'13

45.3% FG - 28.0 ppg - 5.7 rpg - 5.2 apg - 1.55 spg - 0.4 bpg

And LeBron's best - let's say '04-'05 - '13-'14

50.8% FG - 28.17 ppg - 7.42 rpg - 7.0 apg - 1.9 spg - 0.9 bpg

Fun Fact: Kobe holds the record for the most missed shots in the history of the NBA.

*Let's look at some interesting playoffs stats.*

LeBron's #'s in his 4 Game 7's: 46.5% FG - 34.0 ppg - 8.1 rpg - 3.5 apg

(34.0 is the highest Game 7 PPG average in the history of basketball).

Kobe #'s in his 6 Game 7's: 38.9% FG - 22.2 ppg - 8.0 rpg - 5.0 apg

LeBron's #'s in his 12 Elimination Games: 46% FG - 31.5 ppg - 10.0 rpg - 6.5 apg

Kobe's #'s in his 19 Elimination Games: 41.4% FG - 21.5 ppg - 5.8rpg - 3.5apg

Who would you go to with 24 Seconds left on the clock?



I could even go a bit deeper, since LeBron only joined the NBA in 03', but Kobe attempted quite a few game-winners before that.

For his career, Kobe is 7-28 (25.0%) in the 4th quarter in the playoffs, with 24 seconds left on the clock and the game on the line.

Who would you go to with 10 Seconds left on the clock?



Kobe is 0-7 in the last 10 seconds since 2007.

After all, those sentimental arguments really make me sick.

I did my very best to avoid anything of such nature, in order to prevent you from getting sick; just the facts.

Now if you haven't already put it together, LeBron is significantly superior to Kobe in every measurable way.

Kobe has but one claim over LeBron, and that's his 3 rings playing 2nd fiddle to Shaq. Nowhere near enough, in my opinion, to make up for being brutally outclassed everywhere else.

Source for stats/#'s: http://www.basketball-reference.com/

[NormanTwain]

So... case closed?



That was pretty quick.

[ibraheim718]

So... case closed? That was pretty quick.

Hey you smart ass.. it's a matter of opinion. There is no case closed so STFU.. and in case you didn't get the obligatory STFU when you first started posting after you created who knows what your 5th account.. STFU and GTFO.

When a player was in or out of his prime is purely a subjective matter (I say one year you say the other.. who f**king cares already).. that can only be supported by statistical data like minutes played, durability, and offensive and defensive statistical output.. the fact that in two years his PPG went down 8 points and the fact that his minutes were curtailed wasn't enough for you. So why would I continue the debate?

You've got a cinderblock for a head... go bang it somewhere else.

[NormanTwain]

So... case closed? That was pretty quick.

Hey you smart ass.. it's a matter of opinion. There is no case closed so STFU.. and in case you didn't get the obligatory STFU when you first started posting after you created who knows what your 5th account.. STFU and GTFO.

When a player was in or out of his prime is purely a subjective matter.. that can only be supported by statistical data like minutes played, durability, and offensive and defensive statistical output.. the fact that in two years his PPG went down 8 points and the fact that his minutes were curtailed wasn't enough for you. So why would I continue the debate?

You've got a cinderblock for a head... go bang it somewhere else.

This my only account, and the question wasn't geared towards you, friend. I knew that you wouldn't be back. You seem incredibly upset, though; I must have really rustled your jimmies. You didn't take that brisk walk like I suggested, did you? May I suggest it one more time?

[ibraheim718]

So... case closed? That was pretty quick.

Hey you smart ass.. it's a matter of opinion. There is no case closed so STFU.. and in case you didn't get the obligatory STFU when you first started posting after you created who knows what your 5th account.. STFU and GTFO.

When a player was in or out of his prime is purely a subjective matter.. that can only be supported by statistical data like minutes played, durability, and offensive and defensive statistical output.. the fact that in two years his PPG went down 8 points and the fact that his minutes were curtailed wasn't enough for you. So why would I continue the debate?

You've got a cinderblock for a head... go bang it somewhere else.

This my only account, and the question wasn't geared towards you, friend, but you seem rather upset. I must have really rustled your jimmies. You didn't take that brisk walk like I suggested, did you? May I suggest it one more time?

How about I suggest to you one more time to STFU?

[NormanTwain]

Hey you smart ass.. it's a matter of opinion. There is no case closed so STFU.. and in case you didn't get the obligatory STFU when you first started posting after you created who knows what your 5th account.. STFU and GTFO.

When a player was in or out of his prime is purely a subjective matter.. that can only be supported by statistical data like minutes played, durability, and offensive and defensive statistical output.. the fact that in two years his PPG went down 8 points and the fact that his minutes were curtailed wasn't enough for you. So why would I continue the debate?

You've got a cinderblock for a head... go bang it somewhere else.

This my only account, and the question wasn't geared towards you, friend, but you seem rather upset. I must have really rustled your jimmies. You didn't take that brisk walk like I suggested, did you? May I suggest it one more time?

How about I suggest to you one more time to STFU?

Pretty pathetic of you to get so upset over nothing. Don't take it so personally. Just hit the books.

Spoiler:

[ibraheim718]

This my only account, and the question wasn't geared towards you, friend, but you seem rather upset. I must have really rustled your jimmies. You didn't take that brisk walk like I suggested, did you? May I suggest it one more time?

How about I suggest to you one more time to STFU?

Pretty pathetic of you to get so upset over nothing. Don't take it so personally. Just hit the books.

Spoiler:

You're writing encyclopedias man. Are you sure it's nothing to you? Or do you just like to write long winded posts for the fun of it?

[NormanTwain]

Thank You, Norman. Although my rebellious teenage mentality is resisting, I truly am thankful to you for all the new information I've acquired.

You're welcome, Abe.

[NoStatsGuy]

honestly? I dont care about PER or whatever. I am German so theres some bias no doubt, BUT

47, 38, 88 career averages as a 7 footer. almost 27k points. first european MVP. knocking off the Heat big 3. He accomplished so much. IMO its not about PER, etc

Its hard to rank a top 12 ever list because everybody has other criteria to justify certain ranks. But to me as a German, the eye test says definately one of the greatest ever.

His play on the court, what he did for the league and to some degree what he did for German Basketball makes him AT LEAST top 12 on my list. Argueably the best shooting 7 footer since i dont know if there were 7 footers with such smooth game.

Dirks da man!

[spree2kawhi]

So... case closed? That was pretty quick.

Hey you smart ass.. it's a matter of opinion. There is no case closed so STFU.. and in case you didn't get the obligatory STFU when you first started posting after you created who knows what your 5th account.. STFU and GTFO.

When a player was in or out of his prime is purely a subjective matter (I say one year you say the other.. who f**king cares already).. that can only be supported by statistical data like minutes played, durability, and offensive and defensive statistical output.. the fact that in two years his PPG went down 8 points and the fact that his minutes were curtailed wasn't enough for you. So why would I continue the debate?

You've got a cinderblock for a head... go bang it somewhere else.

@NormanTwain: no man case isn't closed it's just that I've got a life outside the internet. haters gonna hate and you're terrible. If LeBron's legacy ended today, he wouldn't have overtaken Kobe's yet and that's not being disrespectful. 5 rings don't just happen to some random talent - where does this "Shaq wouldn't have needed Kobe"-automatism stem from?? you can write any encyclopedia you want... won't convince me. it's a shame you cannot appreciate accomplishments, check this out [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJhZVdRFNcI[/youtube]
I know you won't be convinced so I won't bother anymore. Don't go thinking you achieved something though



@Abe505: cheers

[NormanTwain]

@NormanTwain: no man case isn't closed it's just that I've got a life outside the internet. haters gonna hate and you're terrible. If LeBron's legacy ended today, he wouldn't have overtaken Kobe's yet and that's not being disrespectful. 5 rings don't just happen to some random talent - where does this "Shaq wouldn't have needed Kobe"-automatism stem from?? you can write any encyclopedia you want... won't convince me. it's a shame you cannot appreciate accomplishments, check this out [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJhZVdRFNcI[/outube]
I know you won't be convinced so I won't bother anymore. Don't go thinking you achieved something though

So you have nothing but a youtube video is what your saying.



Lol, @ won't bother anymore. You couldn't bother if you wanted to. You couldn't address a single point of mine, after you yourself asked me to make the case; one that I made from a purely objective point of view. Only then did you realize you were way out of your league, and that all you had was a worthless opinion, based on who you liked more.

I'll take this as your reluctant, but formal concession.

[spree2kawhi]

5 < 2. right.. I don't like to argue with fools and I'll really stop after this.. there's no point you're a pain in the as$. All you do is cherry pick some numbers and everyone with a brain could take the time and do that vice versa. I posted a video in hope you'd feel ashamed of yourself for hating and diminishing the accomplishments of easily the purest basketball talent between Jordan and Lebron. You should be thankful for the show instead. I'm pretty sure Kobe Bryant is a d!ckhead, but I can't stand this sort of ignorance.

I've made my point crystal clear before, no need to repeat myself, and I acknowledge all of LeBron's strengths. Still Kobe at the top of his game is not a lesser player at all. His record shows that, LeBron's might one day prove me wrong, but I comfortably remain in doubt. So far, he's just a very good all around player with two championship rings (which he won together with another proven champion and future Hall of Famer but I can figure that this doesn't work in this direction).

Hey, early in his career Grant Hill was another very good player with incredible PER, too, he was just like LeBron. In case that's out of your league you can go google his name.

This is the last I'll say, since you argue so much with playoff clutchness, last 10 seconds in the playoffs rarara. You put the following in bold letters:

For his career, Kobe is 7-28 (25.0%) in the 4th quarter in the playoffs, with 24 seconds left on the clock and the game on the line.

Let me put it this way:
For his entire career, Kobe Bryant averages 25.6ppg, 5rpg, 5apg in the playoffs and has won 5 championships, no matter if the game was on the line or not. Out of fifteen playoff seasons, he has won five. You call that a second fiddle. Call me when LeBron wins his 5th ring and we can certainly pick up this discussion.

[Fury]

I'm not reading everything here, but not once have I ever thought that Kobe is better than LeBron. Shaquille O'Neal was a **** monster and the team centered around him. Kobe basically played the role Wade played for the Heat when LeBron won those titles.

[spree2kawhi]

I'm not reading everything here, but not once have I ever thought that Kobe is better than LeBron. Shaquille O'Neal was a **** monster and the team centered around him. Kobe basically played the role Wade played for the Heat when LeBron won those titles.

... which is a fair assessment but if LeBron's career ended today, he wouldn't sit on the 6th or 7th greatest legacy of all time. Everyone's taking future championships for granted. I have Kobe 6th or 7th on my all time greats list, LeBron might one day be first but so far he's not there yet.

[djsunyc]

dirk redefined the sport.

[NormanTwain]

5 < 2. right..

When you're not the FMVP, the Ring argument loses significant value.

For example, you have Dirk as your #2 PF All-Time, right? Why is he ranked higher than Kevin Mchale who has 3 rings? More rings equals better right? Especially considering McHale is also one of the greatest PFs of All-Time, and it's not a Robert Horry case where its just a role player with 7 rings. The reason is because Kevin Mchale was not the best player on the team. If Mchale won those 3 rings as the best player on the team, and took home 3 FMVPs, he would easily be the 2nd best PF of all time.

I don't like to argue with fools and I'll really stop after this.. there's no point you're a pain in the as$.

You're projecting so much insecurity right here, by calling me a fool, and you calling this an argument, is hilarious as well. You asked me to make my case, and I did, using just career numbers and accolades. Why am I a fool? Because I don't agree with your biased opinion? Can't handle someone disagreeing with you... you must be a pretty annoying person to be around.

All you do is cherry pick some numbers and everyone with a brain could take the time and do that vice versa.

Yes, cherry picking some numbers... MVPs, FVMPs, DPOY awards, PER, Playoff PER, WS/48, and Playoff WS/48 is me cherry picking arguably the most balanced combination of 7 categories for which a player's career can be measured.

Then I took Kobe's best years, and LeBron's best years, or did I cherry pick those as well? Want to use Kobe's years as a bench player?

I posted a video in hope you'd feel ashamed of yourself for hating and diminishing the accomplishments of easily the purest basketball talent between Jordan and Lebron. You should be thankful for the show instead. I'm pretty sure Kobe Bryant is a d!ckhead, but I can't stand this sort of ignorance.

Remember when I said that it would be difficult to enlighten you based on your bias. Here is an example of it clearly blinding you. No one is diminishing Kobe's accomplishments... they just don't measure up to LeBron's.

You missed me saying this?

Kobe may very well be the most skilled player of All-time, and he is a tremendous scorer, no doubt...
....their defense in their primes is about of equal caliber..

Try nut-hugging less, and reading more.

I've made my point crystal clear before, no need to repeat myself, and I acknowledge all of LeBron's strengths. Still Kobe at the top of his game is not a lesser player at all. His record shows that, LeBron's might one day prove me wrong, but I comfortably remain in doubt. So far, he's just a very good all around player with two championship rings (which he won together with another proven champion and future Hall of Famer but I can figure that this doesn't work in this direction).

LeBron doesn't need to one day prove anything to you. This isn't about right and wrong. The numbers show that LeBron is clearly of a higher caliber.

And who did Kobe win his Championship rings with? Oh, only the most dominant force in the league since Michael Jordan, one of the best big-men in the game at the time, in Pau, and only the greatest coach of all time.

Hey, early in his career Grant Hill was another very good player with incredible PER, too, he was just like LeBron. In case that's out of your league you can go google his name.

Why would you even say something like this? You have no idea how long I've been watching basketball.

Grant Hill never had PER even close to Lebron's prime.

So not only was it pointless to bring up Grant Hill (he has nothing to do with this conversation), but you're also incredibly wrong.

LeBron's top 5 PER seasons

1. 08-09: 31.7 (led the league)
2. 12-13: 31.6 (led the league)
3. 09-10: 31.1 (led the league)
4. 11-12: 30.7 (led the league)
5. 13-14: 29.4 (2nd to Durant's 30.1)

Hill's top 5 PER seasons

1. 97-97: 25.5
2. 99-00: 24.5
3. 98-99: 23.9
4. 97-98: 21.2
5. 95-96: 20.9

I watched Grant Hill win his NCAA titles, and I watched him while he was injuring and re-injuring himself. Just because you heard someone say that Lebron and Hill are very similar, both Point-Forwards, etc, doesn't make them comparable. Grant Hill was one of my favorite players to watch in his prime, but he was never anywhere near the player that LeBron is today, and never made even half the impact on his team that even a young LeBron did.

This is the last I'll say, since you argue so much with playoff clutchness, last 10 seconds in the playoffs rarara. You put the following in bold letters:

For his career, Kobe is 7-28 (25.0%) in the 4th quarter in the playoffs, with 24 seconds left on the clock and the game on the line.

Let me put it this way:
For his entire career, Kobe Bryant averages 25.6ppg, 5rpg, 5apg in the playoffs and has won 5 championships, no matter if the game was on the line or not. Out of fifteen playoff seasons, he has won five.

Looks like he should thank the players around him for letting him "get his", and then also for closing games out for him (something Shaq and Pau were known for), while Kobe failed miserably.

You call that a second fiddle. Call me when LeBron wins his 5th ring and we can certainly pick up this discussion.

Considering Shaq won the FMVP during all of their 3 titles, 2nd fiddle is the exact word that you would use to describe Kobe.

[Dajadeed]

^^ Someone clearly didn't watch the early Lakers teams. Kobe was a second banana in year 1, definitely. Year 2? Go back and watch that. Kobe's numbers were insane. That team went 15-1 and played the best basketball I have ever seen a team play. 15-1.

From year 2 on Kobe was on par with Shaq. Ask Spurs, Kings, and TWolves fans about the WC playoffs. Kobe killed on the road, Shaq killed at home. It was ridiculous.

Anyways, numbers people hate Kobe. They can't fathom someone shooting under 50% leading a team. They say he had Pau, yet Lebron and Shaq and Duncan went out there with the ball boy and the bus driver to win their titles.