Draftexpress drops Mudiay down to pick #6 today

[moocow007]

there is a difference of talent though. Of course you just don't take "hard workers". You have to obviously have a combination of both talent to be picked that high and potential.

I mean there is a reason Winslow is mocked to be a 4 to 7 guy in most drafts and Harrell is mocked to be in the early to mid 20's in most mocks.

Scouts and talent evaluators must see a large talent jump between the two, you don't? I don't think its fair to compare those too talent wise (and that is no knock on Harrell) I just think Winslow has more talent then you are suggesting. Enough to crack the top 5? That has yet to be determined. But "role" player is pretty harsh for him.

role player is appropriate. If you can't create your own shot then you are a role player or "complimentary" player if you like that word better. what happens when a good role player is not surrounded by all-stars? I will tell you what happens, you get Courtney lee in Houston/Celtics or Tayshaun Prince in Detroit after billups, sheed and rip left.

My problem with Justise is creating shots is considered a weakness for him, that means he has to get average at it, then we expect him to take another level and become great at it. probably not going to happen. his handles, creativity and mid-range are not good for a shooting guard which is what he will probably be forced to play in the nba.

I don't think for a second anyone doubts phil's ability to evaluate talent. If Phil drafts winslow because he thinks he can be great than that is fantastic. if he drafts him because melo likes him and he wants us to win sooner then I will be crushed. our franchise will be in the same position as Riley and the heat in 2016, trying to make a desperate pitch to a superstar instead of growing one of our own

he also just turned 19 years old. So you don't think he can improve his playmaking? And in general if he is our selection he will be playing in a system that doesn't require a single player to playmake. The offense is the playmaker with ball movement and player movement.

I'm sorry I don't consider Jimmy Butler and Kawhi Leonard. They both came into the NBA with less than explosive offensive games and they worked to become legit threats. Would they be a #1 option on a title contender today? No way they don't have that skillset but what they do have is an elite way of effective the game without consistently scoring 25+ point a night.

I disagree with that statement 110%. The success (and failure) of every Triangle team has been the presence (or absence) of play makers. Just because those playmakers aren't the traditional play maker position (i.e. PG) doesn't mean that you don't need it. To be competitive, no you don't need playmakers. To win, heck yeah you need playmakers. The Triangle needs guys who can create their own shots when the system creates no shots (they are the "bail out" guys). Even Phil Jackson himself said so in his book about need players that can create their own shots when nothing materializes. Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant were both the ultimate shot creators, guys that can make plays (create shots for themselves or others) when there are none to be had. Not sure why folks have this notion that a successful Triangle offense doesn't need playmakers. A decent Triangle offense doesn't need playmakers, one that plans on being real successful does. Absolutely. The Knicks have Carmelo Anthony who can create his own shot but can't really create shots for others. That's all they have. As it is they are short on playmakers and shot creators. They aren't a few role playing jump shooters and rebounders away from anything other than a 45 win season and a 1st round knock out.

Now I can accept that Winslow might be able to become something more than a role player...you never know. But no way on you don't need playmakers to be successful in the Triangle. Absolute no way.

[EchelonNYK]

The hate for Winslow is real.

For me he didn't even stick out on that Duke team until the championship game. A lot of people, included myself, only tuned in to watch Okafor.

im surprised because he was arguably dukes most impactful player on both ends in the tourny. Now that always isn't the best thing because people might weigh tourny performance over a full season. But I find it hard to believe you watched duke and you didn't notice the impact Winslow had on that team.

I need to go back and watch some full Duke games. Hopefully i can find some of them online.

[Capn'O]

Interesting lineup

Mind you, it's a prediction and not a recommendation. But that's the scenario I see unfolding from a WCS draft.

why is this familiar ?

p.s. we can't afford both monroe & wade. i told you it's gonna be pau gasol or taj gibson.

I've always agreed with your assessment with regards to specific prospects. The draft should point the corresponding FA direction. Okafor/Mudiay/Russell picks each lead to different FA outcomes, imo.

I think we can afford both though. If we shed _and_ guarantee Wade 4 years... he may relent on per year.

[Bklyn&company]

role player is appropriate. If you can't create your own shot then you are a role player or "complimentary" player if you like that word better. what happens when a good role player is not surrounded by all-stars? I will tell you what happens, you get Courtney lee in Houston/Celtics or Tayshaun Prince in Detroit after billups, sheed and rip left.

My problem with Justise is creating shots is considered a weakness for him, that means he has to get average at it, then we expect him to take another level and become great at it. probably not going to happen. his handles, creativity and mid-range are not good for a shooting guard which is what he will probably be forced to play in the nba.

I don't think for a second anyone doubts phil's ability to evaluate talent. If Phil drafts winslow because he thinks he can be great than that is fantastic. if he drafts him because melo likes him and he wants us to win sooner then I will be crushed. our franchise will be in the same position as Riley and the heat in 2016, trying to make a desperate pitch to a superstar instead of growing one of our own

he also just turned 19 years old. So you don't think he can improve his playmaking? And in general if he is our selection he will be playing in a system that doesn't require a single player to playmake. The offense is the playmaker with ball movement and player movement.

I'm sorry I don't consider Jimmy Butler and Kawhi Leonard. They both came into the NBA with less than explosive offensive games and they worked to become legit threats. Would they be a #1 option on a title contender today? No way they don't have that skillset but what they do have is an elite way of effective the game without consistently scoring 25+ point a night.

I disagree with that statement 110%. The success (and failure) of every Triangle team has been the presence (or absence) of play makers. Just because those playmakers aren't the traditional play maker position (i.e. PG) doesn't mean that you don't need it. To be competitive, no you don't need playmakers. To win, heck yeah you need playmakers. The Triangle needs guys who can create their own shots when the system creates no shots (they are the "bail out" guys). Even Phil Jackson himself said so in his book about need players that can create their own shots when nothing materializes. Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant were both the ultimate shot creators, guys that can make plays (create shots for themselves or others) when there are none to be had. Not sure why folks have this notion that a successful Triangle offense doesn't need playmakers. A decent Triangle offense doesn't need playmakers, one that plans on being real successful does. Absolutely. The Knicks have Carmelo Anthony who can create his own shot but can't really create shots for others. That's all they have. As it is they are short on playmakers and shot creators. They aren't a few role playing jump shooters and rebounders away from anything other than a 45 win season and a 1st round knock out.

Now I can accept that Winslow might be able to become something more than a role player...you never know. But no way on you don't need playmakers to be successful in the Triangle. Absolute no way.

True... +1

[mpharris36]

The couple of problems I see are if the Magic trade up, they could take our player. No guarantee they wouldn't. The only reason they'd take Jose is if they genuinely think we'll take their player, so we can't say "Mudiay is off limits." That contradicts the bluff.

Also if Phil uses cap room in the draft, he has to be sure that he's going to use it on X and Y players. He basically has to have a commitment already from the agents of 2 big free agents. Then I'm okay with whatever. If we are going to snag one or two big fish, then the draft can be used to "work around" that primary free agency approach.

I see no reason they would draft another PG in the lottery when they clearly have invested in Payton who had a good rookie year and Oladipo a good young combo guard. It would be pretty foolish to do that. They desperately need help on the wings and at the PF position.

we don't have to bluff the magic per say. We can just have trade discussions with the kings and denver who both could be interested in Porzingis and Winslow (two guys the magic are supposedly interested in). That could be enough of a threat for the magic to call and say we want to move up to #4 to lock in Porzingis. You can move down to 5 and still pick Mudiay and we will take Calderon off your hands.

It could be enough of a threat if Orlando loves Porzingis which is possible.

[mpharris36]

why is this familiar ?

p.s. we can't afford both monroe & wade. i told you it's gonna be pau gasol or taj gibson.

I think the orginal idea stemed from us trading down from #4 to #7 by shedding calderon. In that scenario I believe we would have enough for wade and Monroe.

[god shammgod]

Mind you, it's a prediction and not a recommendation. But that's the scenario I see unfolding from a WCS draft.

why is this familiar ?

p.s. we can't afford both monroe & wade. i told you it's gonna be pau gasol or taj gibson.

I've always agreed with your assessment with regards to specific prospects. The draft should point the corresponding FA direction. Okafor/Mudiay/Russell picks each lead to different FA outcomes, imo.

I think we can afford both though. If we shed _and_ guarantee Wade 4 years... he may relent on per year.

he'd be 37 at the end of the deal....ugh

[Capn'O]

why is this familiar ?

p.s. we can't afford both monroe & wade. i told you it's gonna be pau gasol or taj gibson.

I've always agreed with your assessment with regards to specific prospects. The draft should point the corresponding FA direction. Okafor/Mudiay/Russell picks each lead to different FA outcomes, imo.

I think we can afford both though. If we shed _and_ guarantee Wade 4 years... he may relent on per year.

he'd be 37 at the end of the deal....ugh

Ugh indeed.

[god shammgod]

why is this familiar ?

p.s. we can't afford both monroe & wade. i told you it's gonna be pau gasol or taj gibson.

I think the orginal idea stemed from us trading down from #4 to #7 by shedding calderon. In that scenario I believe we would have enough for wade and Monroe.

what ? the original idea was something i made up after i heard the heat don't want to pay him

[Bklyn&company]

The couple of problems I see are if the Magic trade up, they could take our player. No guarantee they wouldn't. The only reason they'd take Jose is if they genuinely think we'll take their player, so we can't say "Mudiay is off limits." That contradicts the bluff.

Also if Phil uses cap room in the draft, he has to be sure that he's going to use it on X and Y players. He basically has to have a commitment already from the agents of 2 big free agents. Then I'm okay with whatever. If we are going to snag one or two big fish, then the draft can be used to "work around" that primary free agency approach.

I see no reason they would draft another PG in the lottery when they clearly have invested in Payton who had a good rookie year and Oladipo a good young combo guard. It would be pretty foolish to do that. They desperately need help on the wings and at the PF position.

we don't have to bluff the magic per say. We can just have trade discussions with the kings and denver who both could be interested in Porzingis and Winslow (two guys the magic are supposedly interested in). That could be enough of a threat for the magic to call and say we want to move up to #4 to lock in Porzingis. You can move down to 5 and still pick Mudiay and we will take Calderon off your hands.

It could be enough of a threat if Orlando loves Porzingis which is possible.

Hope so... all I want is Calderon and Timmy gone...
Then we can make some real noise in free agency.. and get Phil, Melo, LMA and Gasol in a room together...

[mpharris36]

he also just turned 19 years old. So you don't think he can improve his playmaking? And in general if he is our selection he will be playing in a system that doesn't require a single player to playmake. The offense is the playmaker with ball movement and player movement.

I'm sorry I don't consider Jimmy Butler and Kawhi Leonard. They both came into the NBA with less than explosive offensive games and they worked to become legit threats. Would they be a #1 option on a title contender today? No way they don't have that skillset but what they do have is an elite way of effective the game without consistently scoring 25+ point a night.

I disagree with that statement 110%. The success (and failure) of every Triangle team has been the presence (or absence) of play makers. Just because those playmakers aren't the traditional play maker position (i.e. PG) doesn't mean that you don't need it. To be competitive, no you don't need playmakers. To win, heck yeah you need playmakers. The Triangle needs guys who can create their own shots when the system creates no shots (they are the "bail out" guys). Even Phil Jackson himself said so in his book about need players that can create their own shots when nothing materializes. Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant were both the ultimate shot creators, guys that can make plays (create shots for themselves or others) when there are none to be had. Not sure why folks have this notion that a successful Triangle offense doesn't need playmakers. A decent Triangle offense doesn't need playmakers, one that plans on being real successful does. Absolutely. The Knicks have Carmelo Anthony who can create his own shot but can't really create shots for others. That's all they have. As it is they are short on playmakers and shot creators. They aren't a few role playing jump shooters and rebounders away from anything other than a 45 win season and a 1st round knock out.

Now I can accept that Winslow might be able to become something more than a role player...you never know. But no way on you don't need playmakers to be successful in the Triangle. Absolute no way.

I think you misread my statement. I didn't mean we don't need playmakers I was trying to point out that within the triangle it doesn't require a simple playmaker in the stricked playmaking sense. Most playmakers are P&R guards. I think you can be a playmaker with post ups or an ability to cut the basket and finish or create a shot for others.

I would consider Iguadala in his prime and Butler as plamakers. Not in the traditional sense like CP3 or John Wall. But still they create scoring opportunities for there team or themselves during the game with there ability to handle the rock, get to the basket, finish on the fast break, create fast break opportunities with a rebound or steal and ability to lead the fast break.

i didn't mean we didn't need playmakers in that sense. I guess I was trying to say we don't need a "traditional" point guard playmaker, that controls the ball for a majority of the game to have a successful offense in this system.

[mpharris36]

why is this familiar ?

p.s. we can't afford both monroe & wade. i told you it's gonna be pau gasol or taj gibson.

I think the orginal idea stemed from us trading down from #4 to #7 by shedding calderon. In that scenario I believe we would have enough for wade and Monroe.

what ? the original idea was something i made up after i heard the heat don't want to pay him

you know what I meant, the original team idea of monroe and wade with WCS started with a trade down scenario in this thread.

Not just wade being a knicks target like you said. just the team CAPN'O put up there could be financially feasible if we were to trade calderon.

[mpharris36]

he'd be 37 at the end of the deal....ugh

Ugh indeed.

I will say this. Wade is a winner though. Not saying it would be an ideal scenario but he is the type of leader that people have suggested we have needed in terms of knowing how to win and preparing the right way

[god shammgod]

I think the orginal idea stemed from us trading down from #4 to #7 by shedding calderon. In that scenario I believe we would have enough for wade and Monroe.

what ? the original idea was something i made up after i heard the heat don't want to pay him

you know what I meant, the original team idea of monroe and wade with WCS started with a trade down scenario in this thread.

Not just wade being a knicks target like you said. just the team CAPN'O put up there could be financially feasible if we were to trade calderon.

a lot could be feasible if we could trade calderon but phil himself said people weren't really interested. i don't have much hope.

[mpharris36]

a lot could be feasible if we could trade calderon but phil himself said people weren't really interested. i don't have much hope.

the idea would be trading down. That would be the incentive to have someone to take calderon. Of course right now no one is going to just take calderon off our hands until he proves he can be healthy and productive. But if Phil wanted to get 35 million in cap space to do some damage to get two big FA names.

He could theoretically move down a few spots. Still get someone he likes. And shed Calderon contract. I actually think it would be pretty easy especially if Phil wasn't enamored with Mudiay.

[NoLayupRule]

More years at a high rate.

ok, I don't see NY giving Wade many years on a deal but let me ask you then why would we want to give Wade a 4 year high salary deal?

Hes breaking down at an alarming rate as is

Why not? Giving out long, pricy contracts to vets past their prime is what NYK does. I think he's got a few more years as a very good player in the league. His #s this year were actually better than the previous year. And, at least on paper, that lineup is very complementary. It looks like a classic Phil Jackson lineup with long defenders, shooter/defender at the PG, slashers, midrange specialists, finishers, big butt in the post...

Then you have Melo/Wade as a lure instead of just Melo. Their personalities complement each other with Wade as the more vocal player and other leadership around Melo with the young cats. Cap space in upcoming years.



It's not what I would do... it's what I see happening with a WCS pick. We shall see.

just because Isiah gave out bad contracts doesn't mean Phil will

Wade is very very expensive and misses a good number of games a year

He still dynamic, exciting and can win games by himself
but he's a poor use of a lot of money

[NoLayupRule]

WCS could be our guy
its very possible

it would also be very frustrating

What if Phil swung a deal that got us WCS and Lyles?

That's a very intriguing 3-4-5 punch with Melo

if we turn the 4th pick into WCS and another quality player then I am very happy

[Capn'O]

he'd be 37 at the end of the deal....ugh

Ugh indeed.

I will say this. Wade is a winner though. Not saying it would be an ideal scenario but he is the type of leader that people have suggested we have needed in terms of knowing how to win and preparing the right way

That plan/lineup has its merits and actually could occur in this reality. I could easily see it happening. Especially if they evaluate WCS and think he could learn to shoot in game.

[NoLayupRule]

If that happens, prepare yourselves for this lineup:

New Gallo
Wade
Melo
WCS
Monroe

why in the world would Wade leave Miami and his 16 mil per to come here for less?

Can't the Knicks can offer him $18.9 million to start on a 4 year deal?

not with Monroe at center making 15

[NOOB77]

Collison, McLemore and #6 -4- Calderon, THjr and #4

Send McLemore and and fillers to the Bulls for Taj
Sign Monroe

Draft either Winslow or Stanley Johnson at #6

Collison/Gallo
Winslow or Johnson
Melo
Taj
Monroe