Thoughts on aggressive pursuit of Fred Van Vleet & Joe Harris/Davis Bertans

[cgmw]

Add them to the long, long list of players acquired for more money in bigger roles than they had with their previous teams. It's just more of the same bullsh*t we saw last offseason and pretty much every offseason going alllll the way back to the Marbury trade.

This idiotic franchise just decided to pay/play Randle, Portis/Payton and company to squeeze out just enough wins to miss out on Edwards, Wiseman, Ball. It's exactly the same pattern we've seen forever and FVV would fit perfectly. Big bucks to be a marquee name with delusional expectations on a roster where everybody knows they are just trade bait or roster fodder for Dolan's need for the next 2010 savior.

It's 2020. This sh*t has gone on for a decade nonstop and yet fans still get excited to see FVV get paid. Fans still try to justify why "this time it's different." Same bullsh*t. We're not "developing RJ & Mitch." At best, we're propping up their trade value for the first glimpse of a disgruntled Carmelo-level star.

can't agree with any of this.

Targeting free agents that actually would compliment our young core and can shoot would be a huge improvement.

FVV, Harris, and Bertans are exactly the type of players we should be monitoring and looking into.

I also disagree, the fact that we show Interest shows the front office knows how to put together a team with spacing. Last year we signed guys Bc we had to and even their shooting percentages went down because of spacing. Wake up.

Imagine hawks with

Trae
Huerter
Hunter
Bertans
Collins/ Capela

Sheesh I would hate facing that team

I understand and appreciate what you're saying, but the overwhelming offseason fan sentiment year after year is optimism over the newest high-paid veteran being brought in to play a role that exceeds what he previously did to "earn" the contract. Delusional fan optimism (and quick forgiveness) is a cornerstone of the Dolan incompetency machine.

I do not believe for one second that Leon Rose is building around RJ and Mitch. The point of paying a lot of money for FVV and Bertrans would be:

1) To win as many meaningless regular season games as possible in the hopes of making the 8 seed;
2) To convince future savior veterans that we are a legit destination, likely via trade

If RJ & Mitch develop, they will be sacrificed first chance Leon gets for an established Carmelo-type veteran. Fans will eat it up, but the team will ultimately fail for the same reasons Carmelo failed and Marbury before him. Dolan wants regular season wins so he can stop pouting and being embarrassed next to his latest 20 year old escort.

Until the Knicks commit to DRAFTING AND DEVELOPING top level young talent with consistent picks in the top 3-5, they will remain a very expensive joke.

[dakomish23]

https://www.nbcsports.com/washington/wizards/sources-hawks-knicks-and-suns-among-teams-pursue-davis-bertans-free-agency

NBC Sports out of Washington says the Knicks are expected to pursue Bertans along with the Hawks and the Suns

Add them to the long, long list of players acquired for more money in bigger roles than they had with their previous teams. It's just more of the same bullsh*t we saw last offseason and pretty much every offseason going alllll the way back to the Marbury trade.

This idiotic franchise just decided to pay/play Randle, Portis/Payton and company to squeeze out just enough wins to miss out on Edwards, Wiseman, Ball. It's exactly the same pattern we've seen forever and FVV would fit perfectly. Big bucks to be a marquee name with delusional expectations on a roster where everybody knows they are just trade bait or roster fodder for Dolan's need for the next 2010 savior.

It's 2020. This sh*t has gone on for a decade nonstop and yet fans still get excited to see FVV get paid. Fans still try to justify why "this time it's different." Same bullsh*t. We're not "developing RJ & Mitch." At best, we're propping up their trade value for the first glimpse of a disgruntled Carmelo-level star.

Are you trying to say that we should just keep developing the kids and then spend when we have a proven foundation? I get it. I’d rather do that too, but this organization will never commit to that long term and after all this losing, they’re relentlessly going to pursue as many Ws as possible.

At least these guys can really shoot and play roles that we could actually use next to the kids. Possible trade targets for other teams down the line as well. There’s some positive to this as opposed to paying mediocre bench vets to play in front of the kids.

[cgmw]

https://www.nbcsports.com/washington/wizards/sources-hawks-knicks-and-suns-among-teams-pursue-davis-bertans-free-agency

NBC Sports out of Washington says the Knicks are expected to pursue Bertans along with the Hawks and the Suns

Add them to the long, long list of players acquired for more money in bigger roles than they had with their previous teams. It's just more of the same bullsh*t we saw last offseason and pretty much every offseason going alllll the way back to the Marbury trade.

This idiotic franchise just decided to pay/play Randle, Portis/Payton and company to squeeze out just enough wins to miss out on Edwards, Wiseman, Ball. It's exactly the same pattern we've seen forever and FVV would fit perfectly. Big bucks to be a marquee name with delusional expectations on a roster where everybody knows they are just trade bait or roster fodder for Dolan's need for the next 2010 savior.

It's 2020. This sh*t has gone on for a decade nonstop and yet fans still get excited to see FVV get paid. Fans still try to justify why "this time it's different." Same bullsh*t. We're not "developing RJ & Mitch." At best, we're propping up their trade value for the first glimpse of a disgruntled Carmelo-level star.

Are you trying to say that we should just keep developing the kids and then spend when we have a proven foundation? I get it. I’d rather do that too, but this organization will never commit to that long term and after all this losing, they’re relentlessly going to pursue as many Ws as possible.

At least these guys can really shoot and play roles that we could actually use next to the kids. Possible trade targets for other teams down the line as well. There’s some positive to this as opposed to paying mediocre bench vets to play in front of the kids.

The better way to develop RJ & Mitch would have been never to sign last year's crop, bring in 1-2 year veterans for stability and identity like Chris Paul or Ricky Rubio while (wink wink) tanking for Edwards or Wiseman.

Instead we just get more of the same bullsh*t. The 8 pick will be a useless joke on the bench next to Frank and Knox playing behind overpaid rentals in the hopes of gaining "respectability" so Dolan isn't embarrassed sitting front row next to his latest 20 year old escort.

We've been chasing the get rich quick schemes forever and this is just more of the same. The very clear anwser is to build around the ENTIRE core of rookie salary players while bringing in veterans who will play ancillary roles for identity/stability while you TANK for top 3 picks. That is not the way Leon Rose is going. He's taking the very familiar path of all of Dolan's top stooges.

[cgmw]

^
But yes, the professional basketball minds at the highest pay grade in the league understand that an NBA team in 2021 requires 3 point shooting and spacing. Wooptyfukcindo, let's throw a socially distanced parade!

Fred Van Vleet 5 year max contract! We're saved! The 28 year old Latvian Laser for slightly less than Porzingis! Watch out! Who needs top young draft talent when you have that kind of respectability?

[dakomish23]

Add them to the long, long list of players acquired for more money in bigger roles than they had with their previous teams. It's just more of the same bullsh*t we saw last offseason and pretty much every offseason going alllll the way back to the Marbury trade.

This idiotic franchise just decided to pay/play Randle, Portis/Payton and company to squeeze out just enough wins to miss out on Edwards, Wiseman, Ball. It's exactly the same pattern we've seen forever and FVV would fit perfectly. Big bucks to be a marquee name with delusional expectations on a roster where everybody knows they are just trade bait or roster fodder for Dolan's need for the next 2010 savior.

It's 2020. This sh*t has gone on for a decade nonstop and yet fans still get excited to see FVV get paid. Fans still try to justify why "this time it's different." Same bullsh*t. We're not "developing RJ & Mitch." At best, we're propping up their trade value for the first glimpse of a disgruntled Carmelo-level star.

Are you trying to say that we should just keep developing the kids and then spend when we have a proven foundation? I get it. I’d rather do that too, but this organization will never commit to that long term and after all this losing, they’re relentlessly going to pursue as many Ws as possible.

At least these guys can really shoot and play roles that we could actually use next to the kids. Possible trade targets for other teams down the line as well. There’s some positive to this as opposed to paying mediocre bench vets to play in front of the kids.

The better way to develop RJ & Mitch would have been never to sign last year's crop, bring in 1-2 year veterans for stability and identity like Chris Paul or Ricky Rubio while (wink wink) tanking for Edwards or Wiseman.

Instead we just get more of the same bullsh*t. The 8 pick will be a useless joke on the bench next to Frank and Knox playing behind overpaid rentals in the hopes of gaining "respectability" so Dolan isn't embarrassed sitting front row next to his latest 20 year old escort.

We've been chasing the get rich quick schemes forever and this is just more of the same. The very clear anwser is to build around the ENTIRE core of rookie salary players while bringing in veterans who will play ancillary roles for identity/stability while you TANK for top 3 picks. That is not the way Leon Rose is going. He's taking the very familiar path of all of Dolan's top stooges.

We’ll see how this goes. The things coming from some of these guys does sound like more of the shortsighted approach.

To move forward, it’s going to have to be RJ & Mitch taking huge leaps.

[Nazrmohamed]

I'm not as high as Bertans as some of you are. Its basically l I keep you want shooting so you find every shooter regardless of other skill. The guy plays PF and averages 4 boards. Now you have a new problem. Replace him with Christian Wood or even Marcus Morris and you get a few skills including rebounding and defense. Not to mention I don't think Thibs is as enamored with pace and space as we are. Im sure hes smart enough to realize your PF needs to be ABLE to shoot but to seek that out as the primary skill while ignoring everything else is not realistic. I like FVV and Harris though.

[fatalogic]

Regardless of who they end up getting this team needs competent spacing and ball movement for Mitch and RJ to develop. They've done a disservice to all their recent draft picks by having them in incompetent line ups year after year. I'm giving Leon and the new FO the benefit of the doubt because for the first time in I can't even remember how long the FO actually seems a team of execs with actual experience and respect(tbh not sure why Perry is still here though). If you can get FVV at 20-22mil and Leon/Brock Aller signs off on it I'm good.

[thebuzzardman]

I guess the obvious balances are which positions the Knicks need to upgrade, which they need to upgrade shooting at, how much the player will cost, how much the player will cost over the next few years so as to maintain some kind of cap space for some theoretical group of FA's in a theoretical year.

So, the Knick needs, pretty clearly, are a wing that can create for themselves and/or others, a wing that can shoot, a stretch 4 and a PG that can at the least get the defense moving and create for others. Obviously if the wing can create off the dribble for himself and others AND shoot, that changes what the team would need in the PG. IF the PG can do both, that changes what would be good to have in the SG - maybe "just a shooter" would be fine, and so on.

IF the Knicks solved shooting at PG, SG , stretch 4 becomes less important, and so on.

All the guys listed - FVV, Harris, Bertans fill a need, though even as good as FVV is, and to a lesser extent, Harris, there is a chance they'll both cost enough to hurt the cap space while not moving the needle enough for the team.

I think FVV is good enough in an all around way to risk cap space, but I doubt Tor lets him go.

As far as the other players, it depends on cost, years, who is drafted

[robillionaire]

If you want to develop RJ and Mitch you really need a stretch 4 for spacing. There’s no way around that unless RJ fixes his shot and suddenly becomes an above average shooter like we saw with someone like Lonzo. So we can sign Bertans or Gallo, we can see if the Cavs want to salary dump Kevin Love and a pick to us, we could try to find one in the draft or g-league. Killian Tillie might be a draft target at 39. Or retain Portis for that role and tell him to stick to catch and shoot 3s. Not very many options out there. But I don’t think any of that would prevent a tank either

[Tron Carter]

tanking is dead after the lottery reform. And actually winning games is far from meaningless as long as the youth is being developed properly.

[thebuzzardman]

I'm not as high as Bertans as some of you are. Its basically l I keep you want shooting so you find every shooter regardless of other skill. The guy plays PF and averages 4 boards. Now you have a new problem. Replace him with Christian Wood or even Marcus Morris and you get a few skills including rebounding and defense. Not to mention I don't think Thibs is as enamored with pace and space as we are. Im sure hes smart enough to realize your PF needs to be ABLE to shoot but to seek that out as the primary skill while ignoring everything else is not realistic. I like FVV and Harris though.

I like Harris, but I think his cost will be more than a rebuilding team without a star should pay.

Firstly, the Nets consider themselves contenders with Durant/Kyrie/Lavert(? - unless dealt for another 'star") and Harris is the kind of complimentary 3rd/4th option/floor spacer a contender would want and would pay for. So, considering the Nets can over the cap to do that, seems they would. Or another team would give him "Reddick Money"

And while he'd help the Knicks, minus the star player(s) or big time youth prospect, I don't think it's wise for the Knicks or a team like them to tie up that kind of money in that kind of player, as useful as that player is.

Bertrans might be ok at the right price, but I doubt his price is the right price, so I like more money to Morris or less money to a Jerami Grant type, or some other name I'm missing.

Also, again, not sure of price tag, but Aaron Baynes would be the kind of player I'd overpay for a year, MAYBE two. He'd give the Knicks a stretch 5 off the bench, to open up the floor when Mitch isn't on it, just in a different way.

[Zenzibar]

tanking is dead after the lottery reform. And actually winning games is far from meaningless as long as the youth is being developed properly.

This!.100%.

The new lottery reform does nothing for losers, we know this first hand. Let's get to keeping our picks, drafting wisely, development and signing quality young players to compliment them.

[Zerostatic]

I'm not as high as Bertans as some of you are. Its basically l I keep you want shooting so you find every shooter regardless of other skill. The guy plays PF and averages 4 boards. Now you have a new problem. Replace him with Christian Wood or even Marcus Morris and you get a few skills including rebounding and defense. Not to mention I don't think Thibs is as enamored with pace and space as we are. Im sure hes smart enough to realize your PF needs to be ABLE to shoot but to seek that out as the primary skill while ignoring everything else is not realistic. I like FVV and Harris though.

I definitely see your point. Jerian Grant has also turned into a solid 3 point shooter and provides defense so maybe that could work. My only concern is that we had Morris last year and it still didn't translate to success on the court. We still had spacing issues, I wonder if the jump from a good 3 point shooter (Morris) to an elite 3 point shooter (Bertans) is enough of a difference to negate his lack of other contributions.

I mean the other team CANNOT leave Bertans open, if they do we will probably win, guys like Morris, Grant and Woods won't inspire the same type of fear in the 3 point defense the way Bertans does. The question is how good can our team defense be on the other end.

[MaseInYourFace]

can't agree with any of this.

Targeting free agents that actually would compliment our young core and can shoot would be a huge improvement.

FVV, Harris, and Bertans are exactly the type of players we should be monitoring and looking into.

I also disagree, the fact that we show Interest shows the front office knows how to put together a team with spacing. Last year we signed guys Bc we had to and even their shooting percentages went down because of spacing. Wake up.

Imagine hawks with

Trae
Huerter
Hunter
Bertans
Collins/ Capela

Sheesh I would hate facing that team

I understand and appreciate what you're saying, but the overwhelming offseason fan sentiment year after year is optimism over the newest high-paid veteran being brought in to play a role that exceeds what he previously did to "earn" the contract. Delusional fan optimism (and quick forgiveness) is a cornerstone of the Dolan incompetency machine.

I do not believe for one second that Leon Rose is building around RJ and Mitch. The point of paying a lot of money for FVV and Bertrans would be:

1) To win as many meaningless regular season games as possible in the hopes of making the 8 seed;
2) To convince future savior veterans that we are a legit destination, likely via trade

If RJ & Mitch develop, they will be sacrificed first chance Leon gets for an established Carmelo-type veteran. Fans will eat it up, but the team will ultimately fail for the same reasons Carmelo failed and Marbury before him. Dolan wants regular season wins so he can stop pouting and being embarrassed next to his latest 20 year old escort.

Until the Knicks commit to DRAFTING AND DEVELOPING top level young talent with consistent picks in the top 3-5, they will remain a very expensive joke.

Getting spacers actually aids the development of guys like RJ and Mitch.

[cgmw]

I also disagree, the fact that we show Interest shows the front office knows how to put together a team with spacing. Last year we signed guys Bc we had to and even their shooting percentages went down because of spacing. Wake up.

Imagine hawks with

Trae
Huerter
Hunter
Bertans
Collins/ Capela

Sheesh I would hate facing that team

I understand and appreciate what you're saying, but the overwhelming offseason fan sentiment year after year is optimism over the newest high-paid veteran being brought in to play a role that exceeds what he previously did to "earn" the contract. Delusional fan optimism (and quick forgiveness) is a cornerstone of the Dolan incompetency machine.

I do not believe for one second that Leon Rose is building around RJ and Mitch. The point of paying a lot of money for FVV and Bertrans would be:

1) To win as many meaningless regular season games as possible in the hopes of making the 8 seed;
2) To convince future savior veterans that we are a legit destination, likely via trade

If RJ & Mitch develop, they will be sacrificed first chance Leon gets for an established Carmelo-type veteran. Fans will eat it up, but the team will ultimately fail for the same reasons Carmelo failed and Marbury before him. Dolan wants regular season wins so he can stop pouting and being embarrassed next to his latest 20 year old escort.

Until the Knicks commit to DRAFTING AND DEVELOPING top level young talent with consistent picks in the top 3-5, they will remain a very expensive joke.

Getting spacers actually aids the development of guys like RJ and Mitch.

Of course it does. I’m well aware.

Problem is, you don’t have to use a max contract in attempt to make the 8 seed to get one. It’s just more of the same Starphucking quest for respectability.

The smarter move is to bring in affordable lowkey veteran floor spacers while (wink wink) tanking for top 3 picks until you get lucky or build a core of truly valuable youth.

Instead we just get more of the same nonsense like bringing in Julius Randle or Tim Hardaway Jr before that or the same pattern going all the back to Howard Eisley and Big Snacks and Shandon Anderson.

FVV is a good player. He will make the Knicks better in the short run, but I just want fans to hear the truth—-which is that Leon Rose was brought in to TRADE RJ and Mitch, not develop them. FVV is supposed to bring veteran respectability to lure another veteran star.

RJ and/or Mitch will have a very short window and even shorter leash to blossom into stars before Leon throws them under the bus.

[MaseInYourFace]

I understand and appreciate what you're saying, but the overwhelming offseason fan sentiment year after year is optimism over the newest high-paid veteran being brought in to play a role that exceeds what he previously did to "earn" the contract. Delusional fan optimism (and quick forgiveness) is a cornerstone of the Dolan incompetency machine.

I do not believe for one second that Leon Rose is building around RJ and Mitch. The point of paying a lot of money for FVV and Bertrans would be:

1) To win as many meaningless regular season games as possible in the hopes of making the 8 seed;
2) To convince future savior veterans that we are a legit destination, likely via trade

If RJ & Mitch develop, they will be sacrificed first chance Leon gets for an established Carmelo-type veteran. Fans will eat it up, but the team will ultimately fail for the same reasons Carmelo failed and Marbury before him. Dolan wants regular season wins so he can stop pouting and being embarrassed next to his latest 20 year old escort.

Until the Knicks commit to DRAFTING AND DEVELOPING top level young talent with consistent picks in the top 3-5, they will remain a very expensive joke.

Getting spacers actually aids the development of guys like RJ and Mitch.

Of course it does. I’m well aware.

Problem is, you don’t have to use a max contract in attempt to make the 8 seed to get one. It’s just more of the same Starphucking quest for respectability.

The smarter move is to bring in affordable lowkey veteran floor spacers while (wink wink) tanking for top 3 picks until you get lucky or build a core of truly valuable youth.

Instead we just get more of the same nonsense like bringing in Julius Randle or Tim Hardaway Jr before that or the same pattern going all the back to Howard Eisley and Big Snacks and Shandon Anderson.

FVV is a good player. He will make the Knicks better in the short run, but I just want fans to hear the truth—-which is that Leon Rose was brought in to TRADE RJ and Mitch, not develop them. FVV is supposed to bring veteran respectability to lure another veteran star.

RJ and/or Mitch will have a very short window and even shorter leash to blossom into stars before Leon throws them under the bus.

They literally just checking in with these guys. They haven't done anything yet. It is silly to get upset at this point. I would expect at minimum any competent FO to at least look into getting attractive free agents.

[god shammgod]

tanking is dead after the lottery reform. And actually winning games is far from meaningless as long as the youth is being developed properly.

This!.100%.

The new lottery reform does nothing for losers, we know this first hand. Let's get to keeping our picks, drafting wisely, development and signing quality young players to compliment them.

how ? the team with the worst record got pick 2 and the team with the 3rd worst record got the 1st pick. only 1 team in the top 3 moved back. we just didn't tank enough. as usual.

[robillionaire]

tanking is dead after the lottery reform. And actually winning games is far from meaningless as long as the youth is being developed properly.

This!.100%.

The new lottery reform does nothing for losers, we know this first hand. Let's get to keeping our picks, drafting wisely, development and signing quality young players to compliment them.

how ? the team with the worst record got pick 2 and the team with the 3rd worst record got the 1st pick. only 1 team in the top 3 moved back. we just didn't tank enough. as usual.

This. Most teams that tanked still got what they wanted.

[cgmw]

This!.100%.

The new lottery reform does nothing for losers, we know this first hand. Let's get to keeping our picks, drafting wisely, development and signing quality young players to compliment them.

how ? the team with the worst record got pick 2 and the team with the 3rd worst record got the 1st pick. only 1 team in the top 3 moved back. we just didn't tank enough. as usual.

This. Most teams that tanked still got what they wanted.

It’s not “tanking” to feature your recent draft picks while putting yourself in position to get another high pick—it’s common sense.

Things that prevent youth development:

1) Bringing in last year’s crop of veterans;
2) Bringing in a player agent as president whose main skill set is his Rolodex; and
3) Bringing in a veteran “win now” coach

Signing FVV for a Max would fit the pattern. So would trading Mitch, RJ, and this year’s first for whatever Carmelo-level star Leon was hired to swindle.

[Zenzibar]

tanking is dead after the lottery reform. And actually winning games is far from meaningless as long as the youth is being developed properly.

This!.100%.

The new lottery reform does nothing for losers, we know this first hand. Let's get to keeping our picks, drafting wisely, development and signing quality young players to compliment them.

how ? the team with the worst record got pick 2 and the team with the 3rd worst record got the 1st pick. only 1 team in the top 3 moved back. we just didn't tank enough. as usual.

My Dude, they are not the Knicks. Furthermore, aren't you tired of losing?