OT: NFL 24-25 Thread Cont'd

[Deeeez Knicks]

Daniel Jones was an awful decision but also just an excuse for all the other terrible moves made. If they were not sold on Jones, at least bring in a competent backup. The Vikings are tearing it up with Sam Darnold, Steelers are winning with Fields/Wilson, Flacco led the Browns to the playoffs....these are all just bad excuses. Take away QB and the rest of the roster stinks for the most part. We have a handful of good players, but its simply not enough and still near the bottom of the NFL in terms of talent.

[GONYK]

To be fair, it's hard to evaluate a team that doesn't have a QB. Everything revolves around that. Nothing materially changed about the Bengals a few years ago or the Commanders this year or any other host of teams that went from basement dwellers to competent other than getting the right QB and building around him.

It affects everything.

It does 100% however I think you can evaluate every more individually. Obviously you can see Nabers is a good player even if he hasn't been working with a good QB.

But the other selections. What does Kayvon draft selection have to do with the QB? Does he look like a difference maker? What about Evan Neal? What about Deonte Banks? Wandale Robinson is nothing short of a mediocre slot WR that isn't always healthy (that was a premium 2nd rond pick).

JMS hasn't been good and if you are picking a center in the 2nd round he better be a difference maker.

Hyatt can't get on the field on a bad team...they traded up for him.

Yes the QB situation is rotten...and it seems ownership played a big role in that and they are admitting they aren't holding that on Schoen...but what about the 3 years of acquiring talent? The draft classes have been bad.

I'll give you JMS and Hyatt. I like Wan'Dale, but we definitely reached on him too.

Kayvon and Neal were the consensus picks at the time, with both of them getting #1 pick buzz at various points in the draft cycle. They've both dealt with injuries as well. I didn't see anyone anywhere saying those were bad picks when they were made. KT has also flashed at times. He's just inconsistent and physically not strong enough for the position yet.

Banks is an interesting one because he was drafted for Wink. Wink had the choice between Banks or Porter and wanted Banks for his scheme. If we had a different DC, we'd have made a different decision possibly. Banks really isn't bad either. He's just not a #1 and he's forced to play out of role.

I think the fact of the matter is the draft is an inexact science and more of a crapshoot than people want to admit. Also, there is no sport that relies on the ecosystem as a whole more than football. We've had a less than ideal ecosystem on both ends of the ball for sure, and I'd argue that the lack of QB has contributed to both.

[mpharris36]

It really is a mess. All signs point to Schoen coming back. It's tough when the main issues stem from ownership.

So the video was pretty interesting and the Giants trying to get involved says a few things.

1. Daboll is likely gone (they specifically called about the Joe Schoen should be fired video". THey obviously are/were leaning on keeping Schoen but there might just be too much momentum to clean house.

2. It sounds like the Daniel Jones decision was more pressure from Ownership (Mara) which I think we always said optically after making the playoffs Mara and ownership didn't want to sell "step back" to the fan base so they paid him. Sounds like they aren't holding Schoen accountable for that because there was plenty of ownership influence to get that deal done.

3. The video was focusing on all the other moves Schoen has come up short with. So they even excluded Daniel Jones decision from his resume because they basically forced that move on him. But if you look at his drafting and roster management outside of that there have been way more misses than hits.

This could get real ugly because Giants fans want accountability and no half measures but there reaction to this fire Joe Schoen video suggest they are still thinking about bringing him back...but 3 more weeks to go and it can always get worse and there might be too much fan pressure on Mara not to clean house.

This is what I started to suspect after I saw the way the FO started to operate once the decision to bench Jones was made and why I am fairly bullish on Schoen coming back and possibly Daboll

I get that but how do they just ignore the draft classes and all the negative media attention bring him back will get.

Also...if they move on from Daboll...what coach worth a damn would sign up to be in this **** half measure situation with a GM on the hot seat. That gives the coach zero stability with the franchise.

[GONYK]

To be fair, it's hard to evaluate a team that doesn't have a QB. Everything revolves around that. Nothing materially changed about the Bengals a few years ago or the Commanders this year or any other host of teams that went from basement dwellers to competent other than getting the right QB and building around him.

It affects everything.

eh, we can certainly evaluate defense on teams that don't have a QB. we can also say with certainty that evan neal was a bust. really it's just the receivers/te and whoever the coach that's calling the plays that have a difficult eval. this team is definitely bad and is lacking significantly in talent

The defense was looking pretty solid through the middle games of the season though. They were just on the field the whole game. The bottom has definitely fallen out recently though.

If we were putting up 24+ PPG, the defense would not have held us back when they were playing their best.

[mpharris36]

I have no problem with Giants contacting Talking Giants…..because it reveals their hand.

We now know for fact….they are aware of all the negative things being said about them, and they have a pulse on the ground….how mad the Giants Fan base is. I would assume the online chatter amongst the fan base is pretty much in unison they want both gone. Doubt to many people are wanting them to return.

Talking Giants are not tye only ones saying this. They just happen to be one of, if not the biggest fan channel for the G Men. They are watching the other ones as well.

The fact they are aware zzzzgives a chance that they fold and fire Schoen as well, because at the end of the day…. no matter how much they may like him, if him staying is bad business or PR, they will can him and move on.

The giants are watching the fans right now…. So all that means to me is the fans need to keep the foot on the gas and keep applying pressure. That plane is flying again this weekend. So get your pop corn ready.

yeah I mean he may want to keep him but 3 more weeks of negative attention. Mara is well aware of the pulse of the fan base for hwow awful he is. If its really bad for business he will have no choice but to make a move.

[GONYK]

So the video was pretty interesting and the Giants trying to get involved says a few things.

1. Daboll is likely gone (they specifically called about the Joe Schoen should be fired video". THey obviously are/were leaning on keeping Schoen but there might just be too much momentum to clean house.

2. It sounds like the Daniel Jones decision was more pressure from Ownership (Mara) which I think we always said optically after making the playoffs Mara and ownership didn't want to sell "step back" to the fan base so they paid him. Sounds like they aren't holding Schoen accountable for that because there was plenty of ownership influence to get that deal done.

3. The video was focusing on all the other moves Schoen has come up short with. So they even excluded Daniel Jones decision from his resume because they basically forced that move on him. But if you look at his drafting and roster management outside of that there have been way more misses than hits.

This could get real ugly because Giants fans want accountability and no half measures but there reaction to this fire Joe Schoen video suggest they are still thinking about bringing him back...but 3 more weeks to go and it can always get worse and there might be too much fan pressure on Mara not to clean house.

This is what I started to suspect after I saw the way the FO started to operate once the decision to bench Jones was made and why I am fairly bullish on Schoen coming back and possibly Daboll

I get that but how do they just ignore the draft classes and all the negative media attention bring him back will get.

Also...if they move on from Daboll...what coach worth a damn would sign up to be in this **** half measure situation with a GM on the hot seat. That gives the coach zero stability with the franchise.

You just answered why Daboll might come back

[mpharris36]

To be fair, it's hard to evaluate a team that doesn't have a QB. Everything revolves around that. Nothing materially changed about the Bengals a few years ago or the Commanders this year or any other host of teams that went from basement dwellers to competent other than getting the right QB and building around him.

It affects everything.

It does 100% however I think you can evaluate every more individually. Obviously you can see Nabers is a good player even if he hasn't been working with a good QB.

But the other selections. What does Kayvon draft selection have to do with the QB? Does he look like a difference maker? What about Evan Neal? What about Deonte Banks? Wandale Robinson is nothing short of a mediocre slot WR that isn't always healthy (that was a premium 2nd rond pick).

JMS hasn't been good and if you are picking a center in the 2nd round he better be a difference maker.

Hyatt can't get on the field on a bad team...they traded up for him.

Yes the QB situation is rotten...and it seems ownership played a big role in that and they are admitting they aren't holding that on Schoen...but what about the 3 years of acquiring talent? The draft classes have been bad.

I'll give you JMS and Hyatt. I like Wan'Dale, but we definitely reached on him too.

Kayvon and Neal were the consensus picks at the time, with both of them getting #1 pick buzz at various points in the draft cycle. They've both dealt with injuries as well. I didn't see anyone anywhere saying those were bad picks when they were made. KT has also flashed at times. He's just inconsistent and physically not strong enough for the position yet.

Banks is an interesting one because he was drafted for Wink. Wink had the choice between Banks or Porter and wanted Banks for his scheme. If we had a different DC, we'd have made a different decision possibly. Banks really isn't bad either. He's just not a #1 and he's forced to play out of role.

I think the fact of the matter is the draft is an inexact science and more of a crapshoot than people want to admit. Also, there is no sport that relies on the ecosystem as a whole more than football. We've had a less than ideal ecosystem on both ends of the ball for sure, and I'd argue that the lack of QB has contributed to both.

While this is true its a results based business.

Just because the consensus said those were the right picks doesn't mean he isn't accountable for them not working out. Otherwise why even have a GM...might as well just draft based on mock drafts and let the fans vote and chose. Right or wrong...every draft pick even if it was well regarded at the time needs to be +/- on a GM's resume.

[Deeeez Knicks]

To be fair, it's hard to evaluate a team that doesn't have a QB. Everything revolves around that. Nothing materially changed about the Bengals a few years ago or the Commanders this year or any other host of teams that went from basement dwellers to competent other than getting the right QB and building around him.

It affects everything.

It does 100% however I think you can evaluate every more individually. Obviously you can see Nabers is a good player even if he hasn't been working with a good QB.

But the other selections. What does Kayvon draft selection have to do with the QB? Does he look like a difference maker? What about Evan Neal? What about Deonte Banks? Wandale Robinson is nothing short of a mediocre slot WR that isn't always healthy (that was a premium 2nd rond pick).

JMS hasn't been good and if you are picking a center in the 2nd round he better be a difference maker.

Hyatt can't get on the field on a bad team...they traded up for him.

Yes the QB situation is rotten...and it seems ownership played a big role in that and they are admitting they aren't holding that on Schoen...but what about the 3 years of acquiring talent? The draft classes have been bad.

I'll give you JMS and Hyatt. I like Wan'Dale, but we definitely reached on him too.

Kayvon and Neal were the consensus picks at the time, with both of them getting #1 pick buzz at various points in the draft cycle. They've both dealt with injuries as well. I didn't see anyone anywhere saying those were bad picks when they were made. KT has also flashed at times. He's just inconsistent and physically not strong enough for the position yet.

Banks is an interesting one because he was drafted for Wink. Wink had the choice between Banks or Porter and wanted Banks for his scheme. If we had a different DC, we'd have made a different decision possibly. Banks really isn't bad either. He's just not a #1 and he's forced to play out of role.

I think the fact of the matter is the draft is an inexact science and more of a crapshoot than people want to admit. Also, there is no sport that relies on the ecosystem as a whole more than football. We've had a less than ideal ecosystem on both ends of the ball for sure, and I'd argue that the lack of QB has contributed to both.

Wan'Dale kinda sucks for the role he is in. He's like a 4th/5th WR. No way he should be getting 100+ targets.

[mpharris36]

This is what I started to suspect after I saw the way the FO started to operate once the decision to bench Jones was made and why I am fairly bullish on Schoen coming back and possibly Daboll

I get that but how do they just ignore the draft classes and all the negative media attention bring him back will get.

Also...if they move on from Daboll...what coach worth a damn would sign up to be in this **** half measure situation with a GM on the hot seat. That gives the coach zero stability with the franchise.

You just answered why Daboll might come back

I agree...if Schoen is coming back you might as well keep Daboll because there won't be a coach worth a damn to coach this team.

My issue remains there is literally zero reason to bring back Schoen/Daboll even talking giants talked about other then for the sake of continuity...you really can't look at one thing this regime has done in 3 years and say we are improved. With premium draft picks to help build the roster.

So again you are at a fork in the road...I hate half measures so that would just show you how inept Mara is if he pins this all on Daboll and lets Schoen pick another coach...because what if things don't improve next year? Schoen is on the hot seat and you are basically allowing him to decide the next 10+ years with drafting the next QB?

You have a chance to get alignment with GM/Coach let them pick there own QB and start fresh. That would make the most sense to me and would help Mara appease the rabbit fan base out for blood.

[GONYK]

It does 100% however I think you can evaluate every more individually. Obviously you can see Nabers is a good player even if he hasn't been working with a good QB.

But the other selections. What does Kayvon draft selection have to do with the QB? Does he look like a difference maker? What about Evan Neal? What about Deonte Banks? Wandale Robinson is nothing short of a mediocre slot WR that isn't always healthy (that was a premium 2nd rond pick).

JMS hasn't been good and if you are picking a center in the 2nd round he better be a difference maker.

Hyatt can't get on the field on a bad team...they traded up for him.

Yes the QB situation is rotten...and it seems ownership played a big role in that and they are admitting they aren't holding that on Schoen...but what about the 3 years of acquiring talent? The draft classes have been bad.

I'll give you JMS and Hyatt. I like Wan'Dale, but we definitely reached on him too.

Kayvon and Neal were the consensus picks at the time, with both of them getting #1 pick buzz at various points in the draft cycle. They've both dealt with injuries as well. I didn't see anyone anywhere saying those were bad picks when they were made. KT has also flashed at times. He's just inconsistent and physically not strong enough for the position yet.

Banks is an interesting one because he was drafted for Wink. Wink had the choice between Banks or Porter and wanted Banks for his scheme. If we had a different DC, we'd have made a different decision possibly. Banks really isn't bad either. He's just not a #1 and he's forced to play out of role.

I think the fact of the matter is the draft is an inexact science and more of a crapshoot than people want to admit. Also, there is no sport that relies on the ecosystem as a whole more than football. We've had a less than ideal ecosystem on both ends of the ball for sure, and I'd argue that the lack of QB has contributed to both.

While this is true its a results based business.

Just because the consensus said those were the right picks doesn't mean he isn't accountable for them not working out. Otherwise why even have a GM...might as well just draft based on mock drafts and let the fans vote and chose. Right or wrong...every draft pick even if it was well regarded at the time needs to be +/- on a GM's resume.

Sure, but where is the GM who never misses?

To be clear, I'm not defending the totality of Schoen's draft record, which is very mediocre, but you can only make the pick you have at the time with the information you have at the time. Everything is else is hindsight and it's very hard to judge someone for something that wasn't obvious at the time.

That's why the draft is a crapshoot. For every Burrow there is a Lawrence.

[mpharris36]

if you fire the GM/Coach they will be a sought after landing spot...the #1 or #2 pick...a GM can bring in his own coach...they can pick there own QB for the franchise and have a pretty decent cap sheet going forward.

If you half measure or keep both you run the risk of things getting really ugly next year unless the rookie hits the ground running. Look at the Bears situation...they have a much better roster then we do and only have 4 wins because Caleb Williams hasn't performed well enough. If that is us next year do you really fire Schoen and Daboll and then what GM wants to come to an org he didn't have control of the QB he selected?

[GONYK]

I get that but how do they just ignore the draft classes and all the negative media attention bring him back will get.

Also...if they move on from Daboll...what coach worth a damn would sign up to be in this **** half measure situation with a GM on the hot seat. That gives the coach zero stability with the franchise.

You just answered why Daboll might come back

I agree...if Schoen is coming back you might as well keep Daboll because there won't be a coach worth a damn to coach this team.

My issue remains there is literally zero reason to bring back Schoen/Daboll even talking giants talked about other then for the sake of continuity...you really can't look at one thing this regime has done in 3 years and say we are improved. With premium draft picks to help build the roster.

So again you are at a fork in the road...I hate half measures so that would just show you how inept Mara is if he pins this all on Daboll and lets Schoen pick another coach...because what if things don't improve next year? Schoen is on the hot seat and you are basically allowing him to decide the next 10+ years with drafting the next QB?

You have a chance to get alignment with GM/Coach let them pick there own QB and start fresh. That would make the most sense to me and would help Mara appease the rabbit fan base out for blood.

Well now you're just getting into the Mara of it all, which I can't speak on. I only speak to what I think Mara will do, not why he does it.

On it's face, the guy is loyal to a fault and craves stability.

[mpharris36]

I'll give you JMS and Hyatt. I like Wan'Dale, but we definitely reached on him too.

Kayvon and Neal were the consensus picks at the time, with both of them getting #1 pick buzz at various points in the draft cycle. They've both dealt with injuries as well. I didn't see anyone anywhere saying those were bad picks when they were made. KT has also flashed at times. He's just inconsistent and physically not strong enough for the position yet.

Banks is an interesting one because he was drafted for Wink. Wink had the choice between Banks or Porter and wanted Banks for his scheme. If we had a different DC, we'd have made a different decision possibly. Banks really isn't bad either. He's just not a #1 and he's forced to play out of role.

I think the fact of the matter is the draft is an inexact science and more of a crapshoot than people want to admit. Also, there is no sport that relies on the ecosystem as a whole more than football. We've had a less than ideal ecosystem on both ends of the ball for sure, and I'd argue that the lack of QB has contributed to both.

While this is true its a results based business.

Just because the consensus said those were the right picks doesn't mean he isn't accountable for them not working out. Otherwise why even have a GM...might as well just draft based on mock drafts and let the fans vote and chose. Right or wrong...every draft pick even if it was well regarded at the time needs to be +/- on a GM's resume.

Sure, but where is the GM who never misses?

To be clear, I'm not defending the totality of Schoen's draft record, which is very mediocre, but you can only make the pick you have at the time with the information you have at the time. Everything is else is hindsight and it's very hard to judge someone for something that wasn't obvious at the time.

That's why the draft is a crapshoot. For every Burrow there is a Lawrence.

But these aren't QB's...I get that the hit rate on QB's is pretty low...but if you picking premium picks at non QB positions and aren't getting difference makers that is a problem. And yes every GM has misses but they also sprinkle in some hits as well. Where are the Giants hits?

The resume speaks for itself...out of the 3 draft classes we have one player...one single player with all-pro potential. That just isn't going to cut it. Nevermind all-pro...how many of these draft classes so far can you say 100% should get a 2nd contract from the giants? I dont' think KT for example is a sure bet to get a second contract...he been meh.

[Deeeez Knicks]

if you fire the GM/Coach they will be a sought after landing spot...the #1 or #2 pick...a GM can bring in his own coach...they can pick there own QB for the franchise and have a pretty decent cap sheet going forward.

If you half measure or keep both you run the risk of things getting really ugly next year unless the rookie hits the ground running. Look at the Bears situation...they have a much better roster then we do and only have 4 wins because Caleb Williams hasn't performed well enough. If that is us next year do you really fire Schoen and Daboll and then what GM wants to come to an org he didn't have control of the QB he selected?

We would basically be back to a Daniel Jones situation where the gm and coach inherited a QB. Then, the QB also has to learn a different system if we bring in a new coach after next year. It's a vicious cycle. A fresh start is what we desperately need.

[mpharris36]

You just answered why Daboll might come back

I agree...if Schoen is coming back you might as well keep Daboll because there won't be a coach worth a damn to coach this team.

My issue remains there is literally zero reason to bring back Schoen/Daboll even talking giants talked about other then for the sake of continuity...you really can't look at one thing this regime has done in 3 years and say we are improved. With premium draft picks to help build the roster.

So again you are at a fork in the road...I hate half measures so that would just show you how inept Mara is if he pins this all on Daboll and lets Schoen pick another coach...because what if things don't improve next year? Schoen is on the hot seat and you are basically allowing him to decide the next 10+ years with drafting the next QB?

You have a chance to get alignment with GM/Coach let them pick there own QB and start fresh. That would make the most sense to me and would help Mara appease the rabbit fan base out for blood.

Well now you're just getting into the Mara of it all, which I can't speak on. I only speak to what I think Mara will do, not why he does it.

On it's face, the guy is loyal to a fault and craves stability.

Agreed but I think he is effected by negative media as well which could overcome loyalty...for the exact reason they had someone reach out to a Talkin Giants fan channel. He obviously hates seeing the fly overs...potentially 0 wins at home. 10 ppg....its only going to get worse in the offseason if his decisions negatively effect the perception of the Giants. All the mainstream media don't understand how they can keep these guys...and whats stability if you are a laughing stock?

[mpharris36]

if you fire the GM/Coach they will be a sought after landing spot...the #1 or #2 pick...a GM can bring in his own coach...they can pick there own QB for the franchise and have a pretty decent cap sheet going forward.

If you half measure or keep both you run the risk of things getting really ugly next year unless the rookie hits the ground running. Look at the Bears situation...they have a much better roster then we do and only have 4 wins because Caleb Williams hasn't performed well enough. If that is us next year do you really fire Schoen and Daboll and then what GM wants to come to an org he didn't have control of the QB he selected?

We would basically be back to a Daniel Jones situation where the gm and coach inherited a QB. Then, the QB also has to learn a different system if we bring in a new coach after next year. It's a vicious cycle. A fresh start is what we desperately need.

Agreed loyalty can't outweigh common sense.

Blank slate.

New GM...that GM picks his HC

That GM/HC align on the QB for the future.

They start a rebuild.

That will keep the fans off Mara's neck...any other process they will be out for blood and could get really choppy or ugly because the process will not be streamlined. Old GM with new HC...with new QB...then if that doesn't work new GM inherits old coach and old QB...the timeline doesn't make sense.

[Ghetto Gospel]

To be fair, it's hard to evaluate a team that doesn't have a QB. Everything revolves around that. Nothing materially changed about the Bengals a few years ago or the Commanders this year or any other host of teams that went from basement dwellers to competent other than getting the right QB and building around him.

It affects everything.

eh, we can certainly evaluate defense on teams that don't have a QB. we can also say with certainty that evan neal was a bust. really it's just the receivers/te and whoever the coach that's calling the plays that have a difficult eval. this team is definitely bad and is lacking significantly in talent

The defense was looking pretty solid through the middle games of the season though. They were just on the field the whole game. The bottom has definitely fallen out recently though.

If we were putting up 24+ PPG, the defense would not have held us back when they were playing their best.

solid as in.. middle of the pack at best? we have a couple of pieces on the defensive line that we can build off of but even then our run defense was nasty bad all season

[mpharris36]

also the defense was setting records for lack of INT's and turnovers...they were playing bend but don't break and the Giants were playing a TOP game on offense which limited possessions....I don't think the Giants defense played well at all. Especially with what we have invested in the front 7.

[Deeeez Knicks]

if you fire the GM/Coach they will be a sought after landing spot...the #1 or #2 pick...a GM can bring in his own coach...they can pick there own QB for the franchise and have a pretty decent cap sheet going forward.

If you half measure or keep both you run the risk of things getting really ugly next year unless the rookie hits the ground running. Look at the Bears situation...they have a much better roster then we do and only have 4 wins because Caleb Williams hasn't performed well enough. If that is us next year do you really fire Schoen and Daboll and then what GM wants to come to an org he didn't have control of the QB he selected?

We would basically be back to a Daniel Jones situation where the gm and coach inherited a QB. Then, the QB also has to learn a different system if we bring in a new coach after next year. It's a vicious cycle. A fresh start is what we desperately need.

Agreed loyalty can't outweigh common sense.

Blank slate.

New GM...that GM picks his HC

That GM/HC align on the QB for the future.

They start a rebuild.

That will keep the fans off Mara's neck...any other process they will be out for blood and could get really choppy or ugly because the process will not be streamlined. Old GM with new HC...with new QB...then if that doesn't work new GM inherits old coach and old QB...the timeline doesn't make sense.

If we weren’t in position to draft our QB then maybe you give him another shot. But we are in unique position to start from scratch. We can’t f this up or it’ll be another big set back. Schoen has simply made too many mistakes, whether he had excuses or not. Fair or not fair, it’s a prestigious position. Can’t afford to just give a position like this all the time in the world. If you F up, then time to move on.

[Ghetto Gospel]

We would basically be back to a Daniel Jones situation where the gm and coach inherited a QB. Then, the QB also has to learn a different system if we bring in a new coach after next year. It's a vicious cycle. A fresh start is what we desperately need.

Agreed loyalty can't outweigh common sense.

Blank slate.

New GM...that GM picks his HC

That GM/HC align on the QB for the future.

They start a rebuild.

That will keep the fans off Mara's neck...any other process they will be out for blood and could get really choppy or ugly because the process will not be streamlined. Old GM with new HC...with new QB...then if that doesn't work new GM inherits old coach and old QB...the timeline doesn't make sense.

If we weren’t in position to draft our QB then maybe you give him another shot. But we are in unique position to start from scratch. We can’t f this up or it’ll be another big set back. Schoen has simply made too many mistakes, whether he had excuses or not. Fair or not fair, it’s a prestigious position. Can’t afford to just give a position like this all the time in the world. If you F up, then time to move on.

schoen's had 3 years to give whichever QB we draft in the upcoming draft a good situation to be in to be successful and he hasn't even done that. he hasn't earned the opportunity to get a shot imo