OFFICIAL:I **** HATE DOLAN, THIS ORG, MELO, JR, ETC THREAD

[Rasho Brezec]

anyone with a freakin brain cell knows to win a chip you need to draft a superstar, even if he's your #2.

knicks haven't done that since 85.

no patience....and funny thing is, not that anyone cares, but NY is the EASIEST place to rebuild. ya make money no matter what. teams like the pacers probably can't afford to tank, we can...

What's the difference between drafting a superstar and signing a superstar? You're still getting a superstar, ceteris paribus.

Edit: If we had drafted Amar'e, would that make our current chances to win a championship any better?

Bird rights, the privilege of not trading half of your team.

[Sideline Story]

Bird rights, the privilege of not trading half of your team.

I'm talking talent-wise. See my previous post.

[SmooveAndMelo]

anyone with a freakin brain cell knows to win a chip you need to draft a superstar, even if he's your #2.

knicks haven't done that since 85.

no patience....and funny thing is, not that anyone cares, but NY is the EASIEST place to rebuild. ya make money no matter what. teams like the pacers probably can't afford to tank, we can...

This might be the stupidest **** I ever read.. Thanks.

[seren]

Bird rights, the privilege of not trading half of your team.

I'm talking talent-wise. See my previous post.

Not trading half of your team does wonders talentwise.

[seren]

It really is easy to rebuild in NY. Fans will always come back. We are hungry for young talent. We appreciate effort even if it doesn't translate into wins. For a long time David Lee was the king of the garden and games were sold out even late in March.

[ORANGEandBLUE]

No, Amar'e isn't a superstar, I'm just asking for your opinion.

Your argument is on what the impact of a drafted player has financially. I'm speaking in terms of the talent of a player. Talent-wise, it makes no difference.

After we locked in Amar'e and Melo, people said we wouldn't be able to acquire solid complementary players due to our financial situation. Then we obtained Chandler, and that same statement was regurgitated even further.

However, we've actually built a solid team around our core with signings and through the draft, there's no question about that.

Yup, but with the money Dolan is willing to throw around, we could build a super-team if we built through the draft. Just imagine OKC minus any doubt as to whether Harden and Ibaka will both be brought back long-term, plus a few more full MLE signings.

[GONYK]

No, Amar'e isn't a superstar, I'm just asking for your opinion.

Your argument is on what the impact of a drafted player has financially. I'm speaking in terms of the talent of a player. Talent-wise, it makes no difference.

After we locked in Amar'e and Melo, people said we wouldn't be able to acquire solid complementary players due to our financial situation. Then we obtained Chandler, and that same statement was regurgitated even further.

However, we've actually built a solid team around our core with signings and through the draft, there's no question about that.

Yup, but with the money Dolan is willing to throw around, we could build a super-team if we built through the draft. Just imagine OKC minus any doubt as to whether Harden and Ibaka will both be brought back long-term, plus a few more full MLE signings.

You don't get Dolan's money without Dolan, and Dolan is the one who doesn't want to build through the draft

[ORANGEandBLUE]

You don't get Dolan's money without Dolan, and Dolan is the one who doesn't want to build through the draft

Didn't we have that when his dad ran the team?

[GONYK]

You don't get Dolan's money without Dolan, and Dolan is the one who doesn't want to build through the draft

Didn't we have that when his dad ran the team?

No. We didn't build through the draft with his dad either.

[ORANGEandBLUE]

[
Didn't we have that when his dad ran the team?

No. We didn't build through the draft with his dad either.

I'm not too familiar with the moves the team made in the 80's, but getting the #1 pick (i.e. Ewing) is far closer to the Presti model than anything Dolan has done.

[GONYK]

[
Didn't we have that when his dad ran the team?

No. We didn't build through the draft with his dad either.

I'm not too familiar with the moves the team made in the 80's, but getting the #1 pick (i.e. Ewing) is far closer to the Presti model than anything Dolan has done.

The Dolans took over in '94. Jimmy was given the reigns in '99 I think.

And drafting a franchise player isn't "The Presti Model". Teams have been doing that for as long as there has been a draft. It's just a method of building your team, and it is just as risky as building through trades or FA.

In the former, you bank on potential, which can have a very high bust factor.

In the latter, you are buying a known entity, but it costs you more.

[seren]

The Dolans took over in '94. Jimmy was given the reigns in '99 I think.

And drafting a franchise player isn't "The Presti Model". Teams have been doing that for as long as there has been a draft. It's just a method of building your team, and it is just as risky as building through trades or FA.

In the former, you bank on potential, which can have a very high bust factor.

In the latter, you are buying a known entity, but it costs you more.

I gotta disagree about "as risky" part. For one, the financial commitment is very different given rookie contracts. When Amare doesn't work out, you have a 20 million per waste on your salary cap guaranteed over many years. When a rookie doesn't work, it is a minimal contract with only the first two years that stays on your cap.

There is an easy out when the rookie doesn't work. Worst case, you suck for another year but with flexibility. When the veteran doesn't work, you suck for many years with very little flexibility.

[GONYK]

The Dolans took over in '94. Jimmy was given the reigns in '99 I think.

And drafting a franchise player isn't "The Presti Model". Teams have been doing that for as long as there has been a draft. It's just a method of building your team, and it is just as risky as building through trades or FA.

In the former, you bank on potential, which can have a very high bust factor.

In the latter, you are buying a known entity, but it costs you more.

I gotta disagree about "as risky" part. For one, the financial commitment is very different given rookie contracts. When Amare doesn't work out, you have a 20 million per waste on your salary cap guaranteed over many years. When a rookie doesn't work, it is a minimal contract with only the first two years that stays on your cap.

There is an easy out when the rookie doesn't work. Worst case, you suck for another year but with flexibility. When the veteran doesn't work, you suck for many years with very little flexibility.

True, but then you can easily get on the same treadmill that the Bulls and Clippers were on, and that Houston is on now.

At some point, flexibility has to be cashed in for a known entity.

Your point is that if we invest in Amare, and that investment doesn't pan out, then we are on the hook for more. Fair enough, but then the issue becomes the player you choose to invest in, not the fact that you invested. When you sign a FA, by and large, you know what you are getting. That, in and of itself, is worth a certain premium. On top of that, the ability for established stars to attract other established stars has value as well.

I get what you are saying about the Bird Rights, and that certainly has it's own substantial value, but that comes at the cost of time, dependence on luck, and the risk of lost investment in a player that didn't pan out.

The problem with the Knicks isn't that we built through FA. The problem is the loss of our picks that could have provided supplemental talent and possibly a surprise star along the way. Hopefully, that changes going forward, and we keep our picks.

[GettinitDone]

The Red Sox suffered for close to a century after letting Babe Ruth go to the Yankees.

Every success Lin has in Houston will haunt this franchise forever.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curse_of_the_Bambino

This is not only an angry post. I'm quite serious. This puts a hex on the franchise. Dolan is a curse and this is his legacy statement. It will never be forgotten.

Quoting Clyde Style's first post of this thread, his statement may be truth.

Picture the NBA existing 300-400 years from now in 24xx Do you see in 300-400 years, there will be another Jeremy Lin, a 15th man exploding into a star overnight? This kind of stuff in not only once in a lifetime, it's once in a sports lifetime.

And considering Lin will average 22ppg, 9apg, 4rpg, 2spg, and only 3TPG, Clyde Style's statement is truth. Dolan can't handle the truth.

[seren]

True, but then you can easily get on the same treadmill that the Bulls and Clippers were on, and that Houston is on now.

At some point, flexibility has to be cashed in for a known entity.

Your point is that if we invest in Amare, and that investment doesn't pan out, then we are on the hook for more. Fair enough, but then the issue becomes the player you choose to invest in, not the fact that you invested. When you sign a FA, by and large, you know what you are getting. That, in and of itself, is worth a certain premium. On top of that, the ability for established stars to attract other established stars has value as well.

I get what you are saying about the Bird Rights, and that certainly has it's own substantial value, but that comes at the cost of time, dependence on luck, and the risk of lost investment in a player that didn't pan out.

The problem with the Knicks isn't that we built through FA. The problem is the loss of our picks that could have provided supplemental talent and possibly a surprise star along the way. Hopefully, that changes going forward, and we keep our picks.

Another important component is the age and correspondingly championship window. With a drafted franchise guy, you can probably start competing seriously by year three of the player (say when he is around 22-23 depending on when he got in the league). That is a championship window over a decade. With a worthy FA who is actually wanted, you can't get him before his 8th season in the league which reduces his window by 5 years minimum if not more (given how long it will take to build around him with salary restrictions).

The second part of your post automatically follows the first part. One way or another you will have to have the flexibility to build a roster around your cornerstone. With a drafted player, you have more cash to spend around him before his extension kicks in plus other draft picks. With a FA, you don't have to cash to spend around him and given his age you can't be patient meaning you will use your not so great picks to make deals for players you wouldn't be able to get just with cap space.

[GONYK]

Another important component is the age and correspondingly championship window. With a drafted franchise guy, you can probably start competing seriously by year three of the player (say when he is around 22-23 depending on when he got in the league). That is a championship window over a decade. With a worthy FA who is actually wanted, you can't get him before his 8th season in the league which reduces his window by 5 years minimum if not more (given how long it will take to build around him with salary restrictions).

The second part of your post automatically follows the first part. One way or another you will have to have the flexibility to build a roster around your cornerstone. With a drafted player, you have more cash to spend around him before his extension kicks in plus other draft picks. With a FA, you don't have to cash to spend around him and given his age you can't be patient meaning you will use your not so great picks to make deals for players you wouldn't be able to get just with cap space.

Yes, but that all comes down to drafting a real franchise player, which can take a decade on it's own. People just look at OKC, and think it's easy, when the reality is they are the exception and not the rule.

Yes, drafting your own true franchise player is obviously the ideal, but how many Duncans, Lebrons or Kobe's are there realistically going to be? And even then, you really only have, at most, a 25% chance at getting them in any given year.

I mean, look at the Clippers. They got their #1 pick, and now they have Blake Griffin. I think it's obvious that he's a star, but not a true franchise player, and he's already showing signs of potentially chronic injury issues. That's it. That was their #1 pick.

[ORANGEandBLUE]

The Dolans took over in '94. Jimmy was given the reigns in '99 I think.

And drafting a franchise player isn't "The Presti Model". Teams have been doing that for as long as there has been a draft. It's just a method of building your team, and it is just as risky as building through trades or FA.

In the former, you bank on potential, which can have a very high bust factor.

In the latter, you are buying a known entity, but it costs you more.

Risk should be embraced, not avoided. With more risk comes a higher possible reward. And given how good the title contenders are these days, the high reward scenario is the only way you're going to win a ring.

[GONYK]

The Dolans took over in '94. Jimmy was given the reigns in '99 I think.

And drafting a franchise player isn't "The Presti Model". Teams have been doing that for as long as there has been a draft. It's just a method of building your team, and it is just as risky as building through trades or FA.

In the former, you bank on potential, which can have a very high bust factor.

In the latter, you are buying a known entity, but it costs you more.

Risk should be embraced, not avoided. With more risk comes a higher possible reward. And given how good the title contenders are these days, the high reward scenario is the only way you're going to win a ring.

That's wonderful in idealistic terms. Less so when you have a product to sell.

Both methods offer risks and rewards.

[ORANGEandBLUE]

That's wonderful in idealistic terms. Less so when you have a product to sell.

Both methods offer risks and rewards.

Yeah I agree... from a business standpoint, it's not 'championship or bust.'

But if one's mentality is 'championship or bust,' as I'd assume is the case with most die-hard Knick fans, then it makes more sense to take the higher risk, higher reward strategy.

[seren]

Another important component is the age and correspondingly championship window. With a drafted franchise guy, you can probably start competing seriously by year three of the player (say when he is around 22-23 depending on when he got in the league). That is a championship window over a decade. With a worthy FA who is actually wanted, you can't get him before his 8th season in the league which reduces his window by 5 years minimum if not more (given how long it will take to build around him with salary restrictions).

The second part of your post automatically follows the first part. One way or another you will have to have the flexibility to build a roster around your cornerstone. With a drafted player, you have more cash to spend around him before his extension kicks in plus other draft picks. With a FA, you don't have to cash to spend around him and given his age you can't be patient meaning you will use your not so great picks to make deals for players you wouldn't be able to get just with cap space.

Yes, but that all comes down to drafting a real franchise player, which can take a decade on it's own. People just look at OKC, and think it's easy, when the reality is they are the exception and not the rule.

Yes, drafting your own true franchise player is obviously the ideal, but how many Duncans, Lebrons or Kobe's are there realistically going to be? And even then, you really only have, at most, a 25% chance at getting them in any given year.

I mean, look at the Clippers. They got their #1 pick, and now they have Blake Griffin. I think it's obvious that he's a star, but not a true franchise player, and he's already showing signs of potentially chronic injury issues. That's it. That was their #1 pick.

While you are right, I find the odds of finding a real franchise player through free agency at an even lower probability. Time after time, it is proven that the guys you get through free agency was free for some reason. For every Lebron/Bosh that you can name (who are anomalies to begin with), I can name you many more guys as in Amare, Larry Hughes, Gilbert Arenas, Carlos Boozer, Rashard Lewis etc. The current NBA structure makes it close to impossible to get great guys through free agency.