Cavs/Knicks/OKC in 3 Way Trade Talks (JR+SHUMP TRADED TO CLE)

[mattkabara]

This.
The 2010 plan was fine and it worked out.
The subsequent moves from Dolan who lacked patience killed the idea.
Getting fleeced in the Melo trade and giving up the amnesty for Tyson were poor moves.
But the 2010 team had real opportunity to grow and had room for a max space in 2011.
I can see the Knicks doing something similar again, but this time Phil showing patience and Phil building a more cohesive team than Grunwald/Dolan/Mills

signing amare when no one else would was fine ? letting lee walk for nothing instead of trading him when we could have got something for him ? the jefferies trade that led up to it ? no sir

Exactly. This is the exact same failed Walsh plan.

Except in 2010 we gave up young players and picks to get cap space. Here we traded guys who weren't going to be here next year anyway, and we are potentially going to have a top 3 pick.

And I don't know why people keep debating building through the draft vs. free agency when it's clear now that we are going to try to do both. Yes, initially free agency was the bigger priority, Phil hoped we'd be better, and we wouldn't be in position to get a franchise player in the draft. That hasn't happened, so we adjust. Doesn't matter what the initial plan was.

[R-DAWG]

It didn't need to be to Cleveland. Look at what Morey got for Asik. A possible lottery pick. His contract was the same for Tyson.

I agree with mr negative that we are just giving away players that have value just to get as much cap space as possible. But there are not real game changers other than LMA and maybe Gasol. If we strike out on both (which seem probable) then we gave up value for nothing.

You don't put all your eggs in the free agent basket. That is what Walsh did and it set us back 5 years.

No, what set us back 5 years was settling. We signed Amar'e long term instead of just building the team or using the cap space to build assets. We tried to think that Amar'e's injury history was behind him and that was a mistake.

Hmm that is exactly what I meant.

I think the real issue was wasting the amnesty to bring in Chandler. We would have had the chance to have Melo, at 27-28 and less than super max, on the books with an empty roster. I think we would have had a real chance at CP3.

[PMFJB]

Phil said we were aiming for the playoffs. That ECF would be a good ceiling for this team.

Look up the espn article everyone was praising where he gave his fair assessment of everyone in the team and then said that about his expectations for the team.

So basically you're assuming that every vague platitude that Phil utters to the press is 100% indicative of his actual plans for the team.

And the idea of espn articles, I just don't get it... now our goal has to be living up to the expectations espn sets for us?

No I am basing this on what he said and what his moves are.

[mpharris36]

we just sent out 9 mill and got nothing back. you get a 3rd team involved like what just happened.

It's really simple... they had the salaries to absorb $9m. They did not have the salaries to absorb $14m. Nobody was taking Varejao and they want to keep TT cause he has the same agent as Lebron.

Vareajo was expiring at the time, why wouldn't we take him?

because before his injury why would Cleveland trade Vareajo+ to get Tyson after last year. Vareajo has a relationship with LeBron and is productive when he plays. Why would Cleveland just throw a healthy vareajo away, you keep moving the goal posts.

[K_ick_God]

we just sent out 9 mill and got nothing back. you get a 3rd team involved like what just happened.

It's really simple... they had the salaries to absorb $9m. They did not have the salaries to absorb $14m. Nobody was taking Varejao and they want to keep TT cause he has the same agent as Lebron.

Vareajo was expiring at the time, why wouldn't we take him?

lol

"If I say it was possible then it was and should've gone down."

Simon says take Tyson coming off a bad season and give us a pick and a guy you like and who Bron loves. Evidenced by fact that they gave Andy a $10M per deal so they value him.

Now anticipate how every move will turn out before it does and be perfect about it. I didn't say Simon says!

[Capn'O]

It's definitely a valid concern, but bare in mind that the top 3 prospects this year are close to can't miss status. So the odds are in our favor on this one whereas some of the guys above were in weak classes or blatant reaches.

As for just giving away Shump, we got rid of JR with him which replaces the return of a first but it equates to about 11 million in cap space which is enough to sign a player with an impact rating above those of typical late picks. The other thing is that if we made it through the deadline without finding a first for Shump, we'd be looking at giving him up for nothing. The time to deal him for a pick was last year before Phil came on (though you could blame him if you think his advisory role was key to that not happening which is a possibility) but at this point...between his lack of improvement, yearly injury time and RFA status, his value was probably less than anyone would like to think. It's not a home run move, but it fits with the whole culture change concept and with Melo in tow, Phil now has the space to build a line-up that suits his franchise player.

The big fear here is how Phil does with FA's...but I'm willing to wait for him to screw that up before I dog him and I prefer this route to the alternative which was keeping JR in order to net a late first. It's similar to how I feel with the Tyson deal. I don't believe there was much value there and I'm content with a move that gives us more options even if it doesn't net us immediate gratification like a first rounder might.

I hope PJ doesn't feel too much pressure to spend it all in one place. If the right players are willing to come, by all means, but if not...

Depending on who is available, the Knicks can leverage their position into next year with trades. That way, when a Rondo type player becomes available, the Knicks will have the assets to make the acquisition without relinquishing a ton of value.

But that is my biggest fear that he does feel obligate to spend.

He promised Melo he would build a contender. He promised Dolan. If LMA/Gasol/Dragic all say no. Do we go all in on Milsap and Matthews and essentially gave up a season to get those guys because of the promises he made?

And if he doesn't get anyone and stand pat and we are terrible agian next year with NO PICK. What happens then?

All his moves scream, free agency or bust. Not thrilled with that.

Basically, if he can't get Gasol I hope he goes for a couple of good, SMART players and keeps some of the flexibility.

Dragic, Danny Green, Reggie Jackson, Wes, Butler, Lopez... only Millsap if the price is right. Maybe two from that list. Then stash.

A lot depends on what happens in the draft, as well. I could see him trading "not Okafor" if the right deal came along.



But one thing about Jackson - I don't see him being a guy that will break the bank for guys that he doesn't really want. I don't think he has the "or bust" mentality. Especially if he views Durant as the ultimate prize.

[ORANGEandBLUE]

So basically you're assuming that every vague platitude that Phil utters to the press is 100% indicative of his actual plans for the team.

And the idea of espn articles, I just don't get it... now our goal has to be living up to the expectations espn sets for us?

No I am basing this on what he said and what his moves are.

What moves? Trading Tyson for Dally + Calderon does not scream "win-now" to me. Could he have pursued a more absolutist tanking strategy by taking back dead weight instead of Calderon? Sure. But perhaps, as I suggested, the trade was done to convince Melo we weren't tanking. Or perhaps he just wanted Calderon here so we could work on the system while tanking. Really, all you're relying on is press statements from the Babe **** Ruth of BS'ing the press.

[bigfnjoe96]

We are in such a better position today then we were yesterday, it's not even funny, and we still ain't done dealing. Trust me

actually, were in a worse position today than we were at the end of last season.

If we go the option of stretching contracts, Calderon costs $3 million for 5 years while the combo of JR/Felton would cost $3 million for 3 years

If we don't stretch contracts we have $7.7 million less of cap space in 2016

We moved our 2 best assets and are in a worse cap position with only a few 2nd rd picks to show.

It's not even funny.

What's next, using the 2018 1st to move an expiring?

With the CAP going up, do we really have 7.7M less

[bigfnjoe96]

We are in such a better position today then we were yesterday, it's not even funny, and we still ain't done dealing. Trust me

actually, were in a worse position today than we were at the end of last season.

If we go the option of stretching contracts, Calderon costs $3 million for 5 years while the combo of JR/Felton would cost $3 million for 3 years

If we don't stretch contracts we have $7.7 million less of cap space in 2016

We moved our 2 best assets and are in a worse cap position with only a few 2nd rd picks to show.

It's not even funny.

What's next, using the 2018 1st to move an expiring?

With the CAP going up, do we really have 7.7M less to possibly spend in 2016?

[moocow007]

you could have stretched jr if you needed the money. if not you could just waive him next year. what the f*ck is he hurting this year ?

Exactly.

[K_ick_God]

Now a guy named PMFJB is telling everybody how much Phil sucks.

Only at RealGM.

Time for coffee. It's going to be a long day.

[R-DAWG]

It's really simple... they had the salaries to absorb $9m. They did not have the salaries to absorb $14m. Nobody was taking Varejao and they want to keep TT cause he has the same agent as Lebron.

Vareajo was expiring at the time, why wouldn't we take him?

because before his injury why would Cleveland trade Vareajo+ to get Tyson after last year. Vareajo has a relationship with LeBron and is productive when he plays. Why would Cleveland just throw a healthy vareajo away, you keep moving the goal posts.

I was answering the question. The OP said nobody was taking Vareajo, which is incorrect.

I do think, however, that CLE would have moved Thompson to bring in Tyson Chandler. Thompson + Bogans non guaranteed deal would have been enough to bring back Tyson financially. Throw in the Memphis pick and both new york and cleveland are in a better situation. Please note I value Thompson as an expiring so CLE could flip him to a 3rd team if wanted and take back an asset. Also, in this deal we would have had room to absorb an expiring like Lin and get back another 1st for doing so.

[Deeeez Knicks]

I think everyone should just be quiet about what Phil's plan was...yesterday I was hearing that JR and Shump would be here next year because that was Phil's plan...but the cats that were saying Shump moving was inevitable are team hoodwinked this morning.

+ infinity

Seems to me like the people who have always been against tanking assume that Phil's plan couldn't possibly have been to tank.

it just seems like people are against Phil. They complain about Phil's plan without even knowing what it is

[ORANGEandBLUE]

It's just straight up confirmation bias. Posters who've been pushing the anti-tank train for years grasped at whatever evidence they could find that Phil was endorsing their approach to building a team. Nevermind the fact that he is literally the biggest manipulator and BS'er in the history of sports.

[R-DAWG]

We are in such a better position today then we were yesterday, it's not even funny, and we still ain't done dealing. Trust me

actually, were in a worse position today than we were at the end of last season.

If we go the option of stretching contracts, Calderon costs $3 million for 5 years while the combo of JR/Felton would cost $3 million for 3 years

If we don't stretch contracts we have $7.7 million less of cap space in 2016

We moved our 2 best assets and are in a worse cap position with only a few 2nd rd picks to show.

It's not even funny.

What's next, using the 2018 1st to move an expiring?

With the CAP going up, do we really have 7.7M less to possibly spend in 2016?

yes, the $7.7 million going to Calderon is money that could be spent elsewhere.

[mpharris36]

you could have stretched jr if you needed the money. if not you could just waive him next year. what the f*ck is he hurting this year ?

Exactly.

a couple things. He doesn't hurt the wins and losses much this year but he effects our cap space next year.

also he is in the locker room and if Phil doesn't want him around some of the young guys he may want to get rid of him too.

When did shump become this can't miss asset? I always liked the kid and he wasn't more than a late 1st rounder value and that was when he was playing well. He is now hurt and was playing terribly. What kind of value did JR and Shump really have?

[NoLayupRule]

One thing I think we are seeing here is Phil believing in himself quite a bit

he seems fairly certain he can build a real squad if given the opportunity

and he's given himself that opportunity it seems


we have Pablo, Jose, Melo and Early on the roster next season only.

If Pablo moves on and retires, as one suspects he will, and accepts a buyout or we can spread his remaining salary then thats a significant few min more

If we are able to move Jose then we have almost nothing on the books


we might be looking at basically a reboot but with one of the top 5 players already on board {ok, to hell with all you who want to argue that point}

now the pressure is where it should be
on Phil


He should have a top 10 pick, perhaps top 5 or top 3
30-40 mil in cap space
Multiple top tier free agents and the lure of NYC

Get it done Phil

Ill suffer this year if you can make it worth while

[omerome]

It didn't need to be to Cleveland. Look at what Morey got for Asik. A possible lottery pick. His contract was the same for Tyson.

I agree with mr negative that we are just giving away players that have value just to get as much cap space as possible. But there are not real game changers other than LMA and maybe Gasol. If we strike out on both (which seem probable) then we gave up value for nothing.

You don't put all your eggs in the free agent basket. That is what Walsh did and it set us back 5 years.

No, what set us back 5 years was settling. We signed Amar'e long term instead of just building the team or using the cap space to build assets. We tried to think that Amar'e's injury history was behind him and that was a mistake.

Hmm that is exactly what I meant.

That's not what I got from it. Especially from the last sentence.

Who said that Phil is putting all of his eggs in one basket? We have a draft pick, cap space and Carmelo Anthony. Walsh just had cap space - and blew it on a player with an injury history. What if Phil decides to build a roster with solid players instead of going for max talent? He could still decide to sign max talent, or he can use the cap space to field additional draft picks. We don't know.

[PMFJB]

Now a guy named PMFJB is telling everybody how much Phil sucks.

Only at RealGM.

Time for coffee. It's going to be a long day.

Underrated post.

[R-DAWG]

It's just straight up confirmation bias. Posters who've been pushing the anti-tank train for years grasped at whatever evidence they could find that Phil was endorsing their approach to building a team. Nevermind the fact that he is literally the biggest manipulator and BS'er in the history of sports.

I love the tank, just want more 1st rd picks