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[Camelo Thread]**UPDATE MELO PUSHING FOR KNICKS**- Part 4

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Re: [Camelo Thread]**UPDATE MELO PUSHING FOR KNICKS**- Part 4 

Post#1461 » by kane2021 » Mon Dec 13, 2010 5:06 am

towelie wrote:
kane2021 wrote:
Knicks1214 wrote:Not sure if this has been discussed...but if the Knicks do NOT trade Chandler to get Melo during the season (use other players instead, we can (re)sign him to the MLE if we are over the cap, correct?

(if we trade now using players other than wilson)

We wont even need to use the MLE. We will have our bird rights. We can resign wilson and use the MLE on someone else.


A great target that might be had for the MLE is Dalembert. Not sure which teams will have cap space in 2011, but Sacramento surely won't look to resign him, so he may have to settle for the MLE. He'd be a good fit at center if we get Melo.

I would be VERY happy with that. And he might be interested because of the talent on the team and his back ground.

Gasol we wont get. Probably same with Tyson. But Dally could be a realistic option for us with the MLE.

If we picked him up in the off season with the MLE I would be pumped. I have always been under the impression that a big man, a real center, is going to make 10 million. Things have changed some what. If I had to guess I would think a first year offer would have to be 7 on Dally. But thats just my opinion.

But its also a situation of circumstances. And the MLE is not that far off from 7 if the circumstances are right for the player. I would be very happy with dally at the MLE if we deal this year.

I would also be happy to get Nene in a melo deal. Problem I see with that is matching up that 11 mil AND melo. Thats a farm dumper just in terms of numbers.
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Re: [Camelo Thread]**UPDATE MELO PUSHING FOR KNICKS**- Part 4 

Post#1462 » by Iron Mantis » Mon Dec 13, 2010 5:06 am

drp07644 wrote:
ophdog wrote:Can you imagine how hyped up the fan base is gonna be if we beat boston then trade for melo?


if we beat boston, donnie can't trade anyone who makes a significant contribution to this team. that's the best team in the east and maybe in the NBA with how the lakers look. wednesday is gonna tell us ALOT.


I actually believe(without shaq), we can beat Boston! I think Miami has our poison, because we can't stop dribble penetration, and they have the best defense in the NBA. Out west? Spurs are no joke, aside from that fluke loss to the Clips.

Melo beat the Mavs single-handedly.
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Re: IT'S SIMPLE. MELO IS NOT THE ANSWER. HERE'S WHY 

Post#1463 » by towelie » Mon Dec 13, 2010 5:07 am

Clyde_Style wrote:
Iron Mantis wrote:
NYKnick87 wrote:Acquiring more defensive players isn't gonna improve our defense. Outside of Amare, all our players play good defense. The real answer to improving our defense would be to boot D'Antoni in favor of a coach who actually has some type of defensive philosophy. Under D'Antoni, we're gonna beat teams by running them out of the gym and forcing them to play at our pace. The more highly skilled offensive players we have, the better. Melo is one of those. His availability makes him a must.

Very insightful post. Emphasis on defense, and implementing defensive strategies for the team isn't up to the players. That's on the coach, and D'antoni knows nada about defense. So if we're sticking with Mike D, we need as much offense as possible, and Melo brings that.

Still need a strong, defensive big tho to hold his own against offensive bigs. Can't allow Amar'e to keep banging and getting in foul trouble.


I can agree with the spirit of this argument, but it does not all fall only on the coach. We know MD's an inferior defensive coach, but you need players who want to play D. You can't beat a bunch of stiffs or selfish players into being an elite defensive team, but you can take talented players who want to play it and have a good level of D.

In recent games it is undeniable we have have often come out of the locker room and used defensive pressure to start the third quarter to get control of the game. This has been a very good second half team during this streak. While they can be porous in the lane at times and do not play great team D the whole game, we have seen this team impose its will on defense and take over.

So it has something and nothing to do with MD or who we have already. But we are undeniably letting people drive into the paint and we're going to have to remedy that. Again, I still have real hopes for Mozgov. A healthy Turiaf would be a blessing. It is not like we need lots of parts, but the ones we have must be available and ready to contribute.


Clyde, how can you make excuses for this coach when he has had defensive big men in the past, but has continually opted to go small ball? This is the guy who played David Lee at center for 2 years, and is now looking to do the same with Amare. He's passed on Darko, and now Mozgov. He demoted Turiaf from the starting lineup despite him starting never hurting us (people forget our record with him there), and we're now giving career highs to opposing PF/C's, but it doesn't matter to D'Antoni cause we got the W. This **** won't fly in the playoffs.

Even if we signed Marc Gasol or Sam Dalembert in the offseason, I'd bet D'Antoni would still run Amare at C for a majority of the game.
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Re: IT'S SIMPLE. MELO IS NOT THE ANSWER. HERE'S WHY 

Post#1464 » by NYSport » Mon Dec 13, 2010 5:08 am

I didn't read through the entire thread, so excuse me if I sound a bit redundant. I think I'm starting to see where some of the guys who are indifferent are coming from when they say they want to ride this team out at least until the season is finished. As this team continues to improve and win games, as a fan I can't help but feel same way sometimes. After all, these are the same guys (Wilson, Gallo, etc) that we watched through thick and thin as they matured into the players that they are now. You never wanna lose "one of your guys." Especially when they are playing really well, and the guy that's being rumored to replace them is playing under his standards.

However, at the end of the day I still believe this is a playoff team, but not a contender for a championship. As a fan who started watching the Knicks in the Jordan era, being exited out of the playoffs year in an year out is its own kind of torture. I've never been one to say that we should throw the farm at Melo, or even give a generous offer for that matter. Just to give a minimal (not to be confused with low balling) trade offer and let Denver decide if they are willing to accept it or not. I also have maintained that there a better fits for this team than Melo, but I'm not convinced that there is any realistic option out there. And none at such a discounted price than what we can potentially land Melo for.

As for the guys who want no part of Melo regardless of how we acquire him, we have to agree to disagree. I knew this game would fan the flames of those opposed to getting him. Just as there are games where those who wanted to get rid of Gallo or Will for him can reference. Personally, at the end of the day my ties are to winning a chip, so I can't say that I can relate to either side. I just think that Anthony is the better ends to that mean.
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Re: [Camelo Thread]**UPDATE MELO PUSHING FOR KNICKS**- Part 4 

Post#1465 » by CHARLYMURPHY » Mon Dec 13, 2010 5:10 am

knicks742 wrote:
CHARLYMURPHY wrote:Wow with this news coming out, it feels like the nuggets were shopping melo around, knowing the knicks are the only team he wants to go to, just so when the nuggets approached us at the deadline they could play it off like were just another team and if we want him were going to have to give up alot. I really dont know if i would trade for him or not anymore.. i mean whats the point of he will come here in the summer anyway.

I mean really why trade? Whats the point of giving up a 1st rounder or AR, Gallo, maybe someone else. theirs really no point...


A couple of reasons why we do that trade now:

1. The most obvious is the uncertainty. One never knows what may or may not happen this summer but it would sure be nice to be able to say that we have him already.

2. Trading for him now means that we would not have to renounce the MLE and we would be able to resign any free agents we have that we did not trade (for example, Chandler or Azubuike). Of course, this is under the current CBA, but it would be huge if we had Melo and we still had an MLE to spend to get a starting center this summer.

3. Amar'e is having an MVP season. Getting Melo, again depending on what we give up, makes us a better team and it gives us a better chance to do something in the playoffs with Amar'e playing so well. We don't want to waste an MVP season if we have the chance to get him help this year and make some noise instead of waiting one more year.


Good points, but this is my opinion to your responses

1. Im speaking from the perspective that their is no lockout, if he hits FA whats their to stop us from getting him? We will get him easily theirs no point in trading for him. Plus if their is a lockout its not like if we traded for him at the deadline it would matter, theirs not basketball being played so on our team or not it dosent really matter if we traded for him, especially if/when the lockout is over we can get him... but Melo probably wouldnt be to happy with the fact that his only source of income would be from endorsements from that season.

2. Does anyone really want to keep Azubuike? i mean i know he hasent played but hes not a awesome role player or anything hes aint a "cant miss cant trade" player.. and im pretty sure if we trade for melo their going to want chandler and if they dont, we will have to give him a big contract along with Melo's which means we wouldnt have none/ if any salary cap space for a few years if im right. 3-5 years. And yes we could use an actual center.. but were not going to do a trade just so we can use the MLE to pick up some average center thats better then our crappy ones right now. (No offense to Turiaf hes just not starting material)

3. Well Amar'e is a rebounding scorer.. His stats wouldnt really be affected by the arrival of Melo, and we are playing very good right now so disrupting the chemistry of this team THIS season.. You dont know at this moment if trading for Melo would make us a better or more dysfuctional team with the winning streak going on right now. Uncluding if we got Melo you dont know how well we would play considering that Gallo, Maybe douglas etc will be gone to denver.
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Re: [Camelo Thread]**UPDATE MELO PUSHING FOR KNICKS**- Part 4 

Post#1466 » by CoolKids » Mon Dec 13, 2010 5:12 am

We can beat Miami. The only reason our games have been so closed during this winining streak is because of Nene gettin 29 bargs 40+ etc. bosh is a puss and amare will be out to shut him down i bet
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Re: Who would you rather lose in a trade for Carmelo 

Post#1467 » by MaluKing2K » Mon Dec 13, 2010 5:12 am

Definitely chandler. This reminds of a few years ago when we overhyped Frye and were not willing to include him in a trade for Garnett. Chandler's game is similar to Amare and Melo while Gallo is a great shooter and allows proper spacing on the court.
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Re: [Camelo Thread]**UPDATE MELO PUSHING FOR KNICKS**- Part 4 

Post#1468 » by born 2 expire » Mon Dec 13, 2010 5:18 am

Falstaffxx wrote:
step wrote:Eventhough I am a Bulls fan, I would love to see you land Melo. It would be great to have both the Knicks and the Bulls as super competitive teams (heck you can even argue the case now).


You say that as if the Bulls currently have a better record than the Knicks.


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Re: [Camelo Thread]**UPDATE MELO PUSHING FOR KNICKS**- Part 4 

Post#1469 » by GoWithTheFlow » Mon Dec 13, 2010 5:23 am

I say we do a trade for melo if we get birdman,... But I dont want to get rid of wilson or gallo or feilds or felton turiaf...

Trade ar, wakler, curry, azu and a future pick.
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Re: IT'S SIMPLE. MELO IS NOT THE ANSWER. HERE'S WHY 

Post#1470 » by DishAndSwish » Mon Dec 13, 2010 5:29 am

NYSport wrote:I didn't read through the entire thread, so excuse me if I sound a bit redundant. I think I'm starting to see where some of the guys who are indifferent are coming from when they say they want to ride this team out at least until the season is finished. As this team continues to improve and win games, as a fan I can't help but feel same way sometimes. After all, these are the same guys (Wilson, Gallo, etc) that we watched through thick and thin as they matured into the players that they are now. You never wanna lose "one of your guys." Especially when they are playing really well, and the guy that's being rumored to replace them is playing under his standards.

However, at the end of the day I still believe this is a playoff team, but not a contender for a championship. As a fan who started watching the Knicks in the Jordan era, being exited out of the playoffs year in an year out is its own kind of torture. I've never been one to say that we should throw the farm at Melo, or even give a generous offer for that matter. Just to give a minimal (not to be confused with low balling) trade offer and let Denver decide if they are willing to accept it or not. I also have maintained that there a better fits for this team than Melo, but I'm not convinced that there is any realistic option out there. And none at such a discounted price than what we can potentially land Melo for.

As for the guys who want no part of Melo regardless of how we acquire him, we have to agree to disagree. I knew this game would fan the flames of those opposed to getting him. Just as there are games where those who wanted to get rid of Gallo or Will for him can reference. Personally, at the end of the day my ties are to winning a chip, so I can't say that I can relate to either side. I just think that Anthony is the better ends to that mean.



My thoughts exactly! Thank you for so eloquently sumarizing my position on this as well.
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Re: IT'S SIMPLE. MELO IS NOT THE ANSWER. HERE'S WHY 

Post#1471 » by Clyde_Style » Mon Dec 13, 2010 5:39 am

towelie wrote:Clyde, how can you make excuses for this coach when he has had defensive big men in the past, but has continually opted to go small ball? This is the guy who played David Lee at center for 2 years, and is now looking to do the same with Amare. He's passed on Darko, and now Mozgov. He demoted Turiaf from the starting lineup despite him starting never hurting us (people forget our record with him there), and we're now giving career highs to opposing PF/C's, but it doesn't matter to D'Antoni cause we got the W. This **** won't fly in the playoffs.

Even if we signed Marc Gasol or Sam Dalembert in the offseason, I'd bet D'Antoni would still run Amare at C for a majority of the game.


I'm not excusing MD at all. We are just very dependent on having as many two-way players on our roster as possible. They are the ones with the predisposition to play D regardless of the coach's mindset. That is why DW offsets MD to some degree. Donnie clearly values 2-way players.

We already had 3 gusys carry over who were 2-way. 2-way guys we added are Felton and Fields. Amar'e is an incomplete D player, but he is superior to Lee by a long shot in that regard and has gotten very big stops.

But yeah MD is a mystery. I don't like many of his choices either. I'm one of the guys who wanted him replaced so realize I'm not giving him a pass. But we're stuck with him and our team has to go through him. That said, you need 2-way guys who will take it upon themselves to bring it on D. That's basically what I'm saying.

Nothing to defend about MD, because in terms of defense his philosophy is hardly defensible.
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Re: IT'S SIMPLE. MELO IS NOT THE ANSWER. HERE'S WHY 

Post#1472 » by aggo » Mon Dec 13, 2010 5:48 am

Chandler and Melo are actually really similar players imo.

And ppl will say that Chandler plays defense well and probably is our best defender outside of TD should probably look at this:

http://basketballvalue.com/topplayers.p ... torder=ASC

especially, considering that Melo how the West have a propensity to have a faster pace than the east (lots of secondary breaks--> higher value shots, etc etc.)

he's fifth in the league in defensive +/- for on/off court.

If we admit that he is better than Chandler, and their offensive skillsets are similar, then how would Melo not be an upgrade over Chandler and worth more wins?

Both guys are volume shooters who can slash. Difference is that Melo is a bit better in all areas.

Is Melo worth the max contract we're probably going to give him?? Probably not..

But is Melo worth a lot more wins on this team instead of Chandler? Definitely.
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Re: IT'S SIMPLE. MELO IS NOT THE ANSWER. HERE'S WHY 

Post#1473 » by Clyde_Style » Mon Dec 13, 2010 5:48 am

NYSport wrote:I didn't read through the entire thread, so excuse me if I sound a bit redundant. I think I'm starting to see where some of the guys who are indifferent are coming from when they say they want to ride this team out at least until the season is finished. As this team continues to improve and win games, as a fan I can't help but feel same way sometimes. After all, these are the same guys (Wilson, Gallo, etc) that we watched through thick and thin as they matured into the players that they are now. You never wanna lose "one of your guys." Especially when they are playing really well, and the guy that's being rumored to replace them is playing under his standards.

However, at the end of the day I still believe this is a playoff team, but not a contender for a championship. As a fan who started watching the Knicks in the Jordan era, being exited out of the playoffs year in an year out is its own kind of torture. I've never been one to say that we should throw the farm at Melo, or even give a generous offer for that matter. Just to give a minimal (not to be confused with low balling) trade offer and let Denver decide if they are willing to accept it or not. I also have maintained that there a better fits for this team than Melo, but I'm not convinced that there is any realistic option out there. And none at such a discounted price than what we can potentially land Melo for.

As for the guys who want no part of Melo regardless of how we acquire him, we have to agree to disagree. I knew this game would fan the flames of those opposed to getting him. Just as there are games where those who wanted to get rid of Gallo or Will for him can reference. Personally, at the end of the day my ties are to winning a chip, so I can't say that I can relate to either side. I just think that Anthony is the better ends to that mean.


And as long as the team as a whole is better I can roll with anything. There has to be subtraction to go along with the additions and the keys are the ones already stated. Melo is in the driver's seat and it benefits him to not force something that guts the team he is coming to. Simple enough.

I was very surprised early on how many people wanted to dump our roster to get him when it was clearly not necessary then or now.

And we really did have to see what our guys are made of, how deep their talent is, what they can do. They need a long enough leash without daily fear of being traded to actually come into their own.

At this point, there is no reason to expect the Nuggets to command two or even one of our starters for Melo. We just don't have to do that if Melo stands firm.

At that point, my point of view is inclusive of having Melo. I never rejected him. I said he is not THE Answer. He can be a very big piece among pieces which would be swell. But we need depth to go for all the marbles. It looks like we probably can get Melo without sacrificing more core functioning players than previously thought necessary.

If he can be a team first player and not take 30 shots every game, then we can subtract one starter for him. No problem. More than one starter is not sensible, nor necessary given the circumstances. We can offer some offer parts, but we are in the driver's seat if Melo wants us, not Denver. In which case, keep this team largely intact and then add Melo, not the other way around. I'm down with that.

But I am still concerned about salary caps. Felton and Fields are only on two year leases. Will we be able to retain guys like that and Gallo in a couple of years? We could easily have a contender or championship team and not be able to afford to keep it together.
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Re: IT'S SIMPLE. MELO IS NOT THE ANSWER. HERE'S WHY 

Post#1474 » by Clyde_Style » Mon Dec 13, 2010 5:55 am

AggO wrote:Chandler and Melo are actually really similar players imo.

And ppl will say that Chandler plays defense well and probably is our best defender outside of TD should probably look at this:

http://basketballvalue.com/topplayers.p ... torder=ASC

especially, considering that Melo how the West have a propensity to have a faster pace than the east (lots of secondary breaks--> higher value shots, etc etc.)

he's fifth in the league in defensive +/- for on/off court.

If we admit that he is better than Chandler, and their offensive skillsets are similar, then how would Melo not be an upgrade over Chandler and worth more wins?

Both guys are volume shooters who can slash. Difference is that Melo is a bit better in all areas.

Is Melo worth the max contract we're probably going to give him?? Probably not..

But is Melo worth a lot more wins on this team instead of Chandler? Definitely.


Let's say Melo is worth 5 more regular season wins than having Chandler. Is that the difference between 45 and 50 games? Is that alone a criteria to make a decision on? I don't think so either.

It will come down to what can win us a ring. Some can argue Melo is an X factor that Will is not and at this point I'd agree he is a bigger weapon. Can Will come close? Maybe closer than some think, but it also boils down to mentality. We need guys with killer instincts to match their scoring averages.

And I don't want to give Melo the Max. I don't think he should get a contract like Amar'e and he should have the sense to accept that. He needs to allow for something left over so we can afford a team around the core guys and to retain people. If Lebron and Bosh can do, so can Melo. He'll make it up being in NYC if he's here anyway and he knows that.

One other thing: our team likes each other. We've got a harmonious bunch. It is like night and day from the past. If Melo came, I pray there is no prima donna nonsense from this guy. We just can't be having any of it.
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Forget Melo. What every Knick fan should be EXCITED about. 

Post#1475 » by cgmw » Mon Dec 13, 2010 5:55 am

Current record over the 22 game schedule from Hell:

1-0

So how about a little analysis, you brilliant RGM Knicks fans. What games are you looking forward to? Which ones mean the most? Present the most interesting matchups? Have the biggest playoff implications? What are your predictions for our record during this 22 game stretch? Where will we stand in the EC standings on Feb 1? Etc. etc.

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Re: IT'S SIMPLE. MELO IS NOT THE ANSWER. HERE'S WHY 

Post#1476 » by Jeffrey » Mon Dec 13, 2010 6:01 am

I know I'm going to get one of those STFU and GTFO replies but oh well.

If we get Carmelo... what should D'antoni do? Should he play to Carmelo's strength or play within the system?

Everyone knows that we need another perennial All Star to take it to another level and become a contender. Even Donnie Walsh said it. His goal was to get to max players on this roster to contend. Here is the problem... you have to get 2 superstars that will co-exist with each other. Both superstars must compliment each others game. Both superstars must know when they are option 1 and option 2.

Lebron and Wade doesn't work because they are basically the same type of players. Both are alpha dogs that wants the ball in their hands.

Garnett/Pierce/Allen works because they are veterans that are WILLING to refer to one another when one is having a bad night. All three are willing to sacrifice their numbers to win.

Kobe and Pau works because Pau knows who is the 1st option and who is the 2nd. They don't play the same position. One works the perimeter the other works in the box.

Jordan and Pippen
Shaq and Kobe
Duncan and Parker


The only team that didn't have a true superstar and a sidekick was that Detroit Pistons team that won a few years ago. THOSE are rarities in the NBA.

So the questions become... who is the hero and who is the sidekick if Carmelo comes to NYC? Is he willing to shoot 5 less shots? Is he willing to do a few less ISOs? Is he willing to play better defense (rebounding is not defense) and play within the system? Will he be happy with average 20 points per game? Is he willing to pass the ball around rather than let our team stand around?

****, I'll start some of you guys off and get it over with... "STFU and GTFO"
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Re: Forget Melo. What every Knick fan should be concerned about. 

Post#1477 » by Allan Houston » Mon Dec 13, 2010 6:02 am

Worried about what? I see 22 "W"s in big, bold print.
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Re: Forget Melo. What every Knick fan should be concerned about. 

Post#1478 » by cgmw » Mon Dec 13, 2010 6:06 am

We're tied for 4th in the Eastern Conference, just ONE GAME out of the 2 seed. This next stretch includes:

-All 6 of the other EC leaders (Heat, Celtics, Magic, Bulls, Hawks, and Pacers).
-WC powerhouses (Lakers, Thunder, Jazz, and the Spurs twice)
-Three sets of back-to-backs
-A 7 out of 9 game Western Conf Road Trip
-6 games on national TV
-17 out of 22 games against winning teams

To say this stretch will make or break our season is not an exaggeration. I for one and totally fcking psyched to see how we fare against top competition.
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Re: Forget Melo. What every Knick fan should be concerned about. 

Post#1479 » by cgmw » Mon Dec 13, 2010 6:08 am

Allan Houston wrote:Worried about what? I see 22 "W"s in big, bold print.


Definitions of "concern" on the Web:

1. something that interests you because it is important or affects you;
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Re: Forget Melo. What every Knick fan should be concerned about. 

Post#1480 » by munchies » Mon Dec 13, 2010 6:08 am

nah, you try to take every game, one at a time. u dont look at the schedule and go "oh looks like dec-jan is tough, we should just give up, cuz we're not as good" u try to look at the mistakes that you made last game and do everything to improve so that you dont repeat them

i dont think players look at the monthly schedule that much, i think they look at who is their next challenge and try to adjust to that, the good players at least

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