Cavs/Knicks/OKC in 3 Way Trade Talks (JR+SHUMP TRADED TO CLE)

[prophet_of_rage]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/JonKnicksFan/status/552485682024046593[/tweet]

interesting

Similar to what the 76ers are doing by taking on contracts for draft picks.

The real question is weather or not Steve Mills is smart enough or a good enough negotiator to get it done. This isn't on Phil. Mills is the business man. I had more faith in John Idzik than I do in Mills

And why is Mills the negotiator? Because Jackson has no NBA contacts or credibility with executives.

[R-DAWG]

Larkin and Early are not equivalent to a 1st. Larkin won't even be here next year. He's essentially an expiring deal.

If he wanted picks he would have waited for the offseason to play out before moving Tyson and waited until Shumpert got hurt before moving him.

Larkin is a recent first rounder who was NOT an expiring when the trade was made. Yet another salary cap detail that Phil-bashers need to fudge in order to support their argument.

As for Shump, c'mon.... your problem is that he didn't foresee exactly when his injury would occur?

Larkin will not be here next year. He had a team option and the Knicks declined it before letting him play a regular season game. He does not have the value of a 1st rd pick. He was picked in the 1st round of a weak draft and couldn't crack the rotation in Dallas. The Knicks obviously didn't see the potential in him. He has no value and will not be here next year.

As for Shump, are you lawst??? We couldn't wait a week for him to come back and play????

[Rasho Brezec]

Real life Perd Hapley.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/magicjohnson/status/552304887888084993[/tweet]

[dakomish23]

Shump is a perfect fit between lebron and Irving. Not sure how long JR has before Lebron starts treating him like Mario Chalmers

[R-DAWG]

Similar to what the 76ers are doing by taking on contracts for draft picks.

The real question is weather or not Steve Mills is smart enough or a good enough negotiator to get it done. This isn't on Phil. Mills is the business man. I had more faith in John Idzik than I do in Mills

And why is Mills the negotiator? Because Jackson has no NBA contacts or credibility with executives.

Because he's the business man. Just like in Miami Andy Eyzenberg is the negotiator and business man. RIley makes the final decision.

[E-Balla]

Basically, if he can't get Gasol I hope he goes for a couple of good, SMART players and keeps some of the flexibility.

Dragic, Danny Green, Reggie Jackson, Wes, Butler, Lopez... only Millsap if the price is right. Maybe two from that list. Then stash.

A lot depends on what happens in the draft, as well. I could see him trading "not Okafor" if the right deal came along.



But one thing about Jackson - I don't see him being a guy that will break the bank for guys that he doesn't really want. I don't think he has the "or bust" mentality. Especially if he views Durant as the ultimate prize.

These two are the opposite of smart. Danny just has a smart coach and he knows his role. Reggie is the ultimate in waiting to be overpaid. If we overpay for him I immediately give up on Phish. I'm so serious I'll get obnoxious.

[Jay10]

Being that Reggie Jackson is probably going to leave this summer, the Thunder thought it would be smart to give up a 1st for Dion Waiters.

[R-DAWG]

Shump is a perfect fit between lebron and Irving. Not sure how long JR has before Lebron starts treating him like Mario Chalmers

I think JR will help the Cavs in a limited role, if he's in the rotation

He actually becomes a valuable expiring next summer for a team that is over the cap.

[j4remi]

One thing I think we are seeing here is Phil believing in himself quite a bit

he seems fairly certain he can build a real squad if given the opportunity

and he's given himself that opportunity it seems


we have Pablo, Jose, Melo and Early on the roster next season only.

If Pablo moves on and retires, as one suspects he will, and accepts a buyout or we can spread his remaining salary then thats a significant few min more

If we are able to move Jose then we have almost nothing on the books


we might be looking at basically a reboot but with one of the top 5 players already on board {ok, to hell with all you who want to argue that point}

now the pressure is where it should be
on Phil


He should have a top 10 pick, perhaps top 5 or top 3
30-40 mil in cap space
Multiple top tier free agents and the lure of NYC

Get it done Phil

Ill suffer this year if you can make it worth while

This is it. If you lay it all out, the whole situation...Phil will be in a pretty good position to make a quality team and that's about all you can ask for at this juncture imo.

[Deeeez Knicks]

So does Phil... look at the Tyson trade. He got us Larkin and Early. He gets it. But there's no reason to think Shump could have netted us a first. This is a classic case of Knick fans overrating our assets.

And we got Thanasis in the Tyson trade. Thats 3 young players.

And then they traded Ellington for Acy. That's 4.

boom....there's the young players everyone wanted. all on cheap contracts.

[K_ick_God]

Another funny observation -- R-DAWG keeps talking about that Memphis pick like it's gold and we got dung -- well go look at the protections. Looks pretty likely it will be a bottom 10 pick in a couple years. Last I checked a pick at 24 is exactly 7 spots from the 2nd round. And the lower you go in the draft, the less a few spots in draft order matter. The difference between a pick between, say, 7 and 14 is a lot bigger than the difference between the 27th and 39th pick in the draft.

It's why Hinkie is loading up on 2nds. Because they are favorable contracts and don't hugely reduce your shots of getting a good player. Not that I'm that excited about the 2nd. But I wouldn't be excited about the Memphis pick, either, just because it has a phony condition on it that sends it from 6-14 only for this year and next. News flash -- that protection means nothing because it won't yield a pick and then it rolls into 6-30 which is where it will be and it's a decent bet that Memphis will still be pretty good.

It's this kind of thing that is annoying. Salivating over a 1st round pick that won't be that good, and dismissing a pick that may be nearby. It's silly. And by the way, because of guaranteed deals, the 28, 29, 30 picks, etc., are worse than just getting 2nds where the contracts are better and you may have about the same chance of finding a steal like D Green.

[R-DAWG]

So does Phil... look at the Tyson trade. He got us Larkin and Early. He gets it. But there's no reason to think Shump could have netted us a first. This is a classic case of Knick fans overrating our assets.

And we got Thanasis in the Tyson trade. Thats 3 young players.

And then they traded Ellington for Acy. That's 4.

They gave up a 2nd rd pick for Acy and had to give up another 2nd to move him. So that's net 2 assets.

[j4remi]

As a side note, Phil has rope a doped the press on every move so far...none of their rumors have panned out except for the things they drop right before the deal is done. Dude is a Houdini in a lot of ways.

[Deeeez Knicks]

So does Phil... look at the Tyson trade. He got us Larkin and Early. He gets it. But there's no reason to think Shump could have netted us a first. This is a classic case of Knick fans overrating our assets.

And we got Thanasis in the Tyson trade. Thats 3 young players.

We could have got Thanasis for cash, just like Brooklyn did with the 2nd rd picks they bought

"Keep getting them checks Minnestoa" - Bill Simmons

Come to think of it, we could have given up a future 2nd for the 35th pick in the draft like Memphis did.

We could have gotten the value we got for Tyson without giving up Tyson

the late first round picks you want can be bought too. And now we have cap space and exceptions to do it.

[moocow007]

you could have stretched jr if you needed the money. if not you could just waive him next year. what the f*ck is he hurting this year ?

Exactly.

a couple things. He doesn't hurt the wins and losses much this year but he effects our cap space next year.

also he is in the locker room and if Phil doesn't want him around some of the young guys he may want to get rid of him too.

When did shump become this can't miss asset? I always liked the kid and he wasn't more than a late 1st rounder value and that was when he was playing well. He is now hurt and was playing terribly. What kind of value did JR and Shump really have?

He MAY affect our cap space. There's no guarantee he'd stay if he felt he wasn't wanted. Remember, Smith took less money to stay in a situation that he was happy in. If he's not happy there's no reason not to believe that Smith would opt out and go elsewhere.

Shumpert isn't a can't miss asset. But he's a strong defender on an expiring contract. That is value.

Think about it. Why would a team with a better record want the 2 of them if they are such crap? Why would the Cavaliers want to take on a cancer and an injured dud? Why would they want to take a "guaranteed" extra year on Smith if they know that both James and Love can go elsewhere? Maybe...just maybe...they actually don't use their personal dislike of JR Smith (and Shumpert) to cloud their judgment? Why are we assuming that Phil Jackson, the GM (not head coach but GM) is better than the Cavs GM at...well...GM'ing?

[E-Balla]

Real life Perd Hapley.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/magicjohnson/status/552304887888084993[/tweet]

... I might switch my quote of the week during the day I found it... Wow...

[Jazz(FU)]

I do not understand this trade, I am with Moo, Rasho and anyone else who sees that we paid Shump to move JR and get a 2nd round pick... Last draft we were able to buy 2nd rounders.. This one is a head scratcher.

The more things change, the more things remain the same.

[PMFJB]

One thing I think we are seeing here is Phil believing in himself quite a bit

he seems fairly certain he can build a real squad if given the opportunity

and he's given himself that opportunity it seems


we have Pablo, Jose, Melo and Early on the roster next season only.

If Pablo moves on and retires, as one suspects he will, and accepts a buyout or we can spread his remaining salary then thats a significant few min more

If we are able to move Jose then we have almost nothing on the books


we might be looking at basically a reboot but with one of the top 5 players already on board {ok, to hell with all you who want to argue that point}

now the pressure is where it should be
on Phil


He should have a top 10 pick, perhaps top 5 or top 3
30-40 mil in cap space
Multiple top tier free agents and the lure of NYC

Get it done Phil

Ill suffer this year if you can make it worth while

You make it sound all very good.
Except Phil lucked into being so terrible we are getting a top 4 pick. This wasn't his intent.
The whole plan hinges on him being able to bring quality free agents and not feel pushed to just spend it all this summer. IF he can do that then ok. But I am just getting a bad feeling he is going to try to get someone anyone.

I hope I am proven wrong. But man does this feel like 2010 all over again. I don't know I can deal with 5 more years of mismanagement.

[moocow007]

And we got Thanasis in the Tyson trade. Thats 3 young players.

We could have got Thanasis for cash, just like Brooklyn did with the 2nd rd picks they bought

"Keep getting them checks Minnestoa" - Bill Simmons

Come to think of it, we could have given up a future 2nd for the 35th pick in the draft like Memphis did.

We could have gotten the value we got for Tyson without giving up Tyson

the late first round picks you want can be bought too. And now we have cap space and exceptions to do it.

The Knicks can't buy a 1st round pick...they used their money for that already didn't they?

[PMFJB]

Another funny observation -- R-DAWG keeps talking about that Memphis pick like it's gold and we got dung -- well go look at the protections. Looks pretty likely it will be a bottom 10 pick in a couple years. Last I checked a pick at 24 is exactly 7 spots from the 2nd round. And the lower you go in the draft, the less a few spots in draft order matter. The difference between a pick between, say, 7 and 14 is a lot bigger than the difference between the 27th and 39th pick in the draft.

It's why Hinkie is loading up on 2nds. Because they are favorable contracts and don't hugely reduce your shots of getting a good player. Not that I'm that excited about the 2nd. But I wouldn't be excited about the Memphis pick, either, just because it has a phony condition on it that sends it from 6-14 only for this year and next. News flash -- that protection means nothing because it won't yield a pick and then it rolls into 6-30 which is where it will be and it's a decent bet that Memphis will still be pretty good.

It's this kind of thing that is annoying. Salivating over a 1st round pick that won't be that good, and dismissing a pick that may be nearby. It's silly. And by the way, because of guaranteed deals, the 28, 29, 30 picks, etc., are worse than just getting 2nds where the contracts are better and you may have about the same chance of finding a steal like D Green.

Very valid point. Still not super happy with the trade.