Donovan Mitchell Thread #6 - Something might actually happen in this one!!!!!!

[aggo]

Where are you getting +250 off the bench for Burks? He was +43 this year, and +130 last year off the bench.


Burks actually had a better +/- per game this year as a starter than he did as a bench player, which kind of hurts your point

I thought his Burx numbers were funny, thanks for clearing that up.

Burks had a positive +/- as a back-up and as a starter.

He was the only starter with a positive +/-, for the whole season, and even when isolating the period from November 27 where he effectively became a starter.

But it's not really that surprising that he had a positive impact in both roles, since he's an elite 3-point shooter and a good defender. The combination of those two qualities is what you want most from your role players. Burks was the best and arguably the only two-way player in the starting line-up. It's a sad reality, but a reality nonetheless, until the other starters get their head up their ass and start playing two-way ball again.

yes I think this is the correct application of +/-


IQ's +/- is good given his role. He comes off the bench and is simply a better player than his opponent's bench guards.
Obi's +/- is good given his role.

if we put IQ in the starting lineup does that mean he will have a good +/- ? No we cannot determine that because it hasn't really happened and the only way I would confidently talk about it is only using 4th quarter +/- stats for IQ.

Burks having a positive +/- when the rest of his starting teammates have negative ones simply tells you how important he was on the team. He maintained his production while being asked to play a role he isn't good at and the rest of his teammates sucked in their respective roles too.

I also believe that even in '20-21 Elfrid Payton had a negative +/- while playing massive minutes next to Randle and RJ who had positive +/- for the year.

So there's something about +/- that's correct-- its a good stat to look at when we know by eye that Payton was garbage for the team in '21 while playing a **** ton of minutes and his +/- reflected that while his starting teammates also had positive +/-.

[KnicksNext]

So many people think the Knicks are the team with the leverage here. That's completely false. The Knicks are not the team holding a 25 year star. Ainge will wait it out until he gets the trade he wants. They have Mitchell locked in for four years and won't give in and give him up for less that whatever Ainge's asking price is.

It's the Knicks who are desperate (the front office, not the fans). Can you imagine if this deal doesn't get done, and Mitchell goes to say, the Heat, Rose and Co. will get crucified by all media, local and national. And the majority of fans will be pissed as well. Utah knows this and will wait until Rose can't take the pressure anymore and caves. I don't want this to happen, but it's funny to see so many Knicks fans think the Knicks somehow have any leverage.

Mitchell has stayed quiet as well. It's not like he's out there demanding this or that. I'm sure they communicate every little detail with him, and have told him if he's patient he'll get what he wants. Rose will cave eventually because he has to. At this point he has no choice but the close this deal.

Agreed Knicks don’t have leverage . They do have a great position I’ll give them that. Having the most to offer , generally the biggest deal etc.

Only thing i disagree with is that Ainge can dangle a star out in the market with impunity .
Kind of arrogant on him and the jazz fans to think that is the standard of negotiation.

Stars and their agents usually dictate their wishes and take control of their destiny not let guys like Ainge be their ring master.

You make valid points here, but this is not the KD situation. And even if it is, look at what is happening there. The Nets are not just going to give KD at a discount just because he woke up one day and demanded to be traded. The Nets will wait as long as it takes.

The Mitchell situation is not even close to as bad KD situation in terms of the pressure on the Nets to move him. It's not even bad at all, from all indications. I'm sure Ainge realizes there really is no hurry to get anything done. It's not like the Jazz fans are pissed it's taking this long. I'm sure all Jazz fans are perfectly fine with waiting as long as it takes to get the deal done. Wouldn't you if you were a Jazz fan? If I was, I would be praying that Ainge holds the line until he gets the best possible offer on the table. We're only moving towards August. Plenty, plenty of time to wait for Rose to cave because the increasing pressure on him. Every single day all the talking heads are saying the Knicks desperately need Mitchell, and that this is Rose' opportunity to put the Knicks back on the map.

If you're Leon Rose you're sweating so much right now (unless it's already a done deal) because you know you can't lose this opportunity. Whether someone as a Knicks fan on here wants Mitchell or not is irrelevant. Rose knows this is his chance to cement himself as one of the better GMs the Knicks have had. He knows most of NY will praise him so much if he lands him. Each single day the deal hangs out there adds more pressure to Rose. Ainge is probably in Maui chillin waiting to see Rose' number to pop up on his cell.

[Galvationknicks]

Donny here yet?

[Clyde_Style]

So many people think the Knicks are the team with the leverage here. That's completely false. The Knicks are not the team holding a 25 year star. Ainge will wait it out until he gets the trade he wants. They have Mitchell locked in for four years and won't give in and give him up for less that whatever Ainge's asking price is.

It's the Knicks who are desperate (the front office, not the fans). Can you imagine if this deal doesn't get done, and Mitchell goes to say, the Heat, Rose and Co. will get crucified by all media, local and national. And the majority of fans will be pissed as well. Utah knows this and will wait until Rose can't take the pressure anymore and caves. I don't want this to happen, but it's funny to see so many Knicks fans think the Knicks somehow have any leverage.

Mitchell has stayed quiet as well. It's not like he's out there demanding this or that. I'm sure they communicate every little detail with him, and have told him if he's patient he'll get what he wants. Rose will cave eventually because he has to. At this point he has no choice but the close this deal.

good go ahead and cave leon.. fk the picks

I agree. Let's just get this over with already. Give Ainge that last pick swap he wants and call it a day.

Pussies

[bearadonisdna]

So if we do get Donovan.... He's the #1 option and Brunson is #2? Takes the ball out of Randles hands and the pressure off both him and RJ. Does Randle adjust well playing off the ball most of the time? Does Thibs let the guards run the show? How long does it take the team to mesh together? How well does the PnR with Mitchell look?

Kemba and Evan were supposed to be an improvement last year. Oops. This team should look much better up and down the lineup adding these guys. I expect the team to look better with Brunson alone so...DM makes us that much better in theory.

The way I see it the Knicks best offensive archetype right now having a pointguard with three 20 ppg scorers .
Meaning the pecking order will be
1. Mitchell
2. Likely Randle
3. RJ

A guy like Brunson should be able to have a field day and create for himself and others and have plenty of outlets.

We still may see Randle handling the ball because it’s SCHEMATIC . Thibs says he is the teams engine other people think he only handles the ball because he is selfish.

It’s actually essentially to a 4 or 5 out offense because the PF is already out.
Also I will see times when DM will be on the ball , meaning Brunson goes in Dallas mode like when he was with Luka.

This can be a very dynamic offense .

[Iron Mantis]

The FO really goofed this time...Burks was a game-changer on the Knicks. Easily the best player.

GM's, especially contenders, were constantly inquiring about Burks..some offering unprotected firsts. Y'all remember the reports.

In fact, if we still had Burks to offer in a trade, D.Mitch would already be a Knick hands down.

Reality: Knicks had to attach assets just get rid of Burks......

Yea but you’ll be looking really stupid when you look at VoRp, RAPM , RAPTOR, maybe even LEbRON .
What that even means I don’t know I’m not a scientist.

A lot of these posters don't realize.

Real GM'S in the NBA know that a player's value, career projection, talent, and team impact is based strictly on advanced analytics such as:
CARMELO, DwADE, WOLvERINE, AmARE, T-REX.

[KnicksNext]

So many people think the Knicks are the team with the leverage here. That's completely false. The Knicks are not the team holding a 25 year star. Ainge will wait it out until he gets the trade he wants. They have Mitchell locked in for four years and won't give in and give him up for less that whatever Ainge's asking price is.

It's the Knicks who are desperate (the front office, not the fans). Can you imagine if this deal doesn't get done, and Mitchell goes to say, the Heat, Rose and Co. will get crucified by all media, local and national. And the majority of fans will be pissed as well. Utah knows this and will wait until Rose can't take the pressure anymore and caves. I don't want this to happen, but it's funny to see so many Knicks fans think the Knicks somehow have any leverage.

Mitchell has stayed quiet as well. It's not like he's out there demanding this or that. I'm sure they communicate every little detail with him, and have told him if he's patient he'll get what he wants. Rose will cave eventually because he has to. At this point he has no choice but the close this deal.

Where exactly is Miami going to get the assets to outbid the Knicks?

As you know, and as you've seen in the past, Pat Riley is the master of figuring out how to make the impossible possible. He'll pull in a 3rd team. Miami is like the Lakers in that they somehow pull magical rabbits out of their hats with nothing but thin air. Who the F knows how he'll get it done? But doubting Pat Riley is almost always a mistake.

And it does not have to be Miami, btw. I'm sure there are quite a few teams that are interested in Mitchell. Just because we haven't heard heard names, doesn't mean there aren't sleeper teams interested. I can remember many situations in the past where you think a player is going to a specific team, and wake up one day and here he's going somewhere else. This idea that the Knicks are the only team that has any value to give back to Utah is silly.

The longer Rose waits to pull the trigger and give Ainge what he wants, the better the chance another team swoops in and grabs DMitch. Rose is allowing other teams the time to take a second look at their roster/assets to see if they can put together a package that would interest Ainge together. Teams also have the time to construct 3+ team trades as well.

Do the Knicks most likely have what Ainge wants the most? Probably. But to think that other teams are not working hard to pry a 25 year old star locked in for 4 years away from Utah is naïve (not saying this is you). I'm sure Ainge has fielded a lot of calls about him. And I'm he's still getting more as time goes on.

[KnicksNext]

Some daily RJ fun stats. This is an area RJ has some potential in and def want to see him unlock it

Read on Twitter

?s=21&t=TAkDaATxRe2U3Ec4ulpxkg

-Increase RJ’s ball handling responsibility
-Trade for another ball dominant guard and pair him next to another one and a ball dominant PF

It’s one or the other lol.

It's funny that this dude is suggesting this as the Knicks are getting close to adding another player that will dominate the ball. The second player we will have added that will dominate the ball. Is he not paying attention? There's only one ball, and it's not going to be in RJ's hands if DMitch is added to Brunson. Poor timing to make such a suggestion to the Knicks. Obviously they disagree with him.

[KnicksNext]

https://www.si.com/fannation/nba/fastbreak/news/donovan-mitchells-viral-tweet-on-sunday

DMitch is trolling us Knicks fans

[KnicksNext]

So if we do get Donovan.... He's the #1 option and Brunson is #2? Takes the ball out of Randles hands and the pressure off both him and RJ. Does Randle adjust well playing off the ball most of the time? Does Thibs let the guards run the show? How long does it take the team to mesh together? How well does the PnR with Mitchell look?

Kemba and Evan were supposed to be an improvement last year. Oops. This team should look much better up and down the lineup adding these guys. I expect the team to look better with Brunson alone so...DM makes us that much better in theory.

Last year team defenses would double Randle and force him into a turnover. This season he should get more 1-1 matchups. If he wins those the Knicks will look much better. RJ will probably be the guy left open so he needs to be a better shooter than before.

You're assuming Randle is going to accept that he's now the third wheel. It's going to be fascinating to see how the Randle situation plays out if we get Mitchell too.

[GONYK]

So many people think the Knicks are the team with the leverage here. That's completely false. The Knicks are not the team holding a 25 year star. Ainge will wait it out until he gets the trade he wants. They have Mitchell locked in for four years and won't give in and give him up for less that whatever Ainge's asking price is.

It's the Knicks who are desperate (the front office, not the fans). Can you imagine if this deal doesn't get done, and Mitchell goes to say, the Heat, Rose and Co. will get crucified by all media, local and national. And the majority of fans will be pissed as well. Utah knows this and will wait until Rose can't take the pressure anymore and caves. I don't want this to happen, but it's funny to see so many Knicks fans think the Knicks somehow have any leverage.

Mitchell has stayed quiet as well. It's not like he's out there demanding this or that. I'm sure they communicate every little detail with him, and have told him if he's patient he'll get what he wants. Rose will cave eventually because he has to. At this point he has no choice but the close this deal.

Where exactly is Miami going to get the assets to outbid the Knicks?

As you know, and as you've seen in the past, Pat Riley is the master of figuring out how to make the impossible possible. He'll pull in a 3rd team. Miami is like the Lakers in that they somehow pull magical rabbits out of their hats with nothing but thin air. Who the F knows how he'll get it done? But doubting Pat Riley is almost always a mistake.

And it does not have to be Miami, btw. I'm sure there are quite a few teams that are interested in Mitchell. Just because we haven't heard heard names, doesn't mean there aren't sleeper teams interested. I can remember many situations in the past where you think a player is going to a specific team, and wake up one day and here he's going somewhere else. This idea that the Knicks are the only team that has any value to give back to Utah is silly.

The longer Rose waits to pull the trigger and give Ainge what he wants, the better the chance another team swoops in and grabs DMitch. Rose is allowing other teams the time to take a second look at their roster/assets to see if they can put together a package that would interest Ainge together. Teams also have the time to construct 3+ team trades as well.

Do the Knicks most likely have what Ainge wants the most? Probably. But to think that other teams are not working hard to pry a 25 year old star locked in for 4 years away from Utah is naïve (not saying this is you). I'm sure Ainge has fielded a lot of calls about him. And I'm he's still getting more as time goes on.

There's no need to guess or speculate though.

We know every team who can/will give 5+ picks. It's the Knicks.

Ainge has been spending the last week canvassing the league and shopping the Knicks offer. He keeps coming back to NY.

All of Ainge's leverage is based on Mitchell playing good soldier. Mitchell, who is represented by Leon Rose's CAA, is probably less open to starting the season in Utah or ending up in a small market than Ainge is posturing.

The Knicks don't have all the leverage, but they have enough to be patient.

[stuporman]

Teams usually use the Knicks to drive the price up on their trades, its funny when they dont have anybody else to hike up the pricetag on us.

Teams still use the Knicks to drive up the price even when it's only the Knicks who are bidding....hopefully this FO doesn't fall for the okiedoke.

[Gravy]

So if we do get Donovan.... He's the #1 option and Brunson is #2? Takes the ball out of Randles hands and the pressure off both him and RJ. Does Randle adjust well playing off the ball most of the time? Does Thibs let the guards run the show? How long does it take the team to mesh together? How well does the PnR with Mitchell look?

Kemba and Evan were supposed to be an improvement last year. Oops. This team should look much better up and down the lineup adding these guys. I expect the team to look better with Brunson alone so...DM makes us that much better in theory.

Last year team defenses would double Randle and force him into a turnover. This season he should get more 1-1 matchups. If he wins those the Knicks will look much better. RJ will probably be the guy left open so he needs to be a better shooter than before.

You're assuming Randle is going to accept that he's now the third wheel. It's going to be fascinating to see how the Randle situation plays out if we get Mitchell too.

This season in the 4th quarter Randle was tied for 4th in shot attempts behind IQ, RJ and Rose so he probably wants other good players on the team to have the ball more.

[Iron Mantis]

Last year team defenses would double Randle and force him into a turnover. This season he should get more 1-1 matchups. If he wins those the Knicks will look much better. RJ will probably be the guy left open so he needs to be a better shooter than before.

You're assuming Randle is going to accept that he's now the third wheel. It's going to be fascinating to see how the Randle situation plays out if we get Mitchell too.

This season in the 4th quarter Randle was tied for 4th in shot attempts behind IQ, RJ and Rose so he probably wants other good players on the team to have the ball more.

What are his 3rd quarter attempts like?

Somehow I feel like after he has shot the Knicks out of the game in the 3rd, he's predictably scared and defers so someone else can dig the team out of the hole.

[B8RcDeMktfxC]

I do wonder whether the Knicks are thinking about SGA seriously. I think OKC would sell for the kind of price that is being talked about for Mitchell.

[snadler]

I do wonder whether the Knicks are thinking about SGA seriously. I think OKC would sell for the kind of price that is being talked about for Mitchell.

Nope, Mitchell..too many connections, agency, Leon represented him, Knicks coaching staff..from NY..etc..

[K_ick_God]

So many people think the Knicks are the team with the leverage here. That's completely false. The Knicks are not the team holding a 25 year star. Ainge will wait it out until he gets the trade he wants. They have Mitchell locked in for four years and won't give in and give him up for less that whatever Ainge's asking price is.

It's the Knicks who are desperate (the front office, not the fans). Can you imagine if this deal doesn't get done, and Mitchell goes to say, the Heat, Rose and Co. will get crucified by all media, local and national. And the majority of fans will be pissed as well. Utah knows this and will wait until Rose can't take the pressure anymore and caves. I don't want this to happen, but it's funny to see so many Knicks fans think the Knicks somehow have any leverage.

Mitchell has stayed quiet as well. It's not like he's out there demanding this or that. I'm sure they communicate every little detail with him, and have told him if he's patient he'll get what he wants. Rose will cave eventually because he has to. At this point he has no choice but the close this deal.

lol

[RHODEY]

So many people think the Knicks are the team with the leverage here. That's completely false. The Knicks are not the team holding a 25 year star. Ainge will wait it out until he gets the trade he wants. They have Mitchell locked in for four years and won't give in and give him up for less that whatever Ainge's asking price is.

It's the Knicks who are desperate (the front office, not the fans). Can you imagine if this deal doesn't get done, and Mitchell goes to say, the Heat, Rose and Co. will get crucified by all media, local and national. And the majority of fans will be pissed as well. Utah knows this and will wait until Rose can't take the pressure anymore and caves. I don't want this to happen, but it's funny to see so many Knicks fans think the Knicks somehow have any leverage.

Mitchell has stayed quiet as well. It's not like he's out there demanding this or that. I'm sure they communicate every little detail with him, and have told him if he's patient he'll get what he wants. Rose will cave eventually because he has to. At this point he has no choice but the close this deal.

Where exactly is Miami going to get the assets to outbid the Knicks?

As you know, and as you've seen in the past, Pat Riley is the master of figuring out how to make the impossible possible. He'll pull in a 3rd team. Miami is like the Lakers in that they somehow pull magical rabbits out of their hats with nothing but thin air. Who the F knows how he'll get it done? But doubting Pat Riley is almost always a mistake.

And it does not have to be Miami, btw. I'm sure there are quite a few teams that are interested in Mitchell. Just because we haven't heard heard names, doesn't mean there aren't sleeper teams interested. I can remember many situations in the past where you think a player is going to a specific team, and wake up one day and here he's going somewhere else. This idea that the Knicks are the only team that has any value to give back to Utah is silly.

The longer Rose waits to pull the trigger and give Ainge what he wants, the better the chance another team swoops in and grabs DMitch. Rose is allowing other teams the time to take a second look at their roster/assets to see if they can put together a package that would interest Ainge together. Teams also have the time to construct 3+ team trades as well.

Do the Knicks most likely have what Ainge wants the most? Probably. But to think that other teams are not working hard to pry a 25 year old star locked in for 4 years away from Utah is naïve (not saying this is you). I'm sure Ainge has fielded a lot of calls about him. And I'm he's still getting more as time goes on.

Ainge hasnt fielded ****. Miami has no shot here..and neither does most of the league.There's only like 3-5 teams that have as many or more future firsts than the Knicks and none of them is interested in Mitchell. Why? Because he doesn't fit their respective timelines/roster/goals and/or just like Ainge they also want to tank for 2023.

From UTAH's perspective (thanks to the Gobert trade), they really don't have much of a choice other than blow up and rebuild. The Jazz's current roster is play-in caliber, 7-8 seed at best. Probably most relevant to the situation, though, is their core outside of Spida is very old. Conley, Bogdanovic, and Clarkson are all in their 30s, the first two of which in their mid-30s, and Utah is one of the least attractive FA destinations.

As Hahn said as well, they got no valuable young talent or key pieces in the Gobert trade other than Malik Beasley, who's coming off a really bad season and has legal issues, and Walker Kessler, who hasn't played a single NBA game yet. No team can nor will realistically offer what we can and Ainge knows it, and due to Ainge's crappy draft history outside of the top 10, I can see why he wants two young players from us rather than just one. We have all the leverage here, and I'm more than happy waiting and playing a game of chicken.

[K_ick_God]

I do wonder whether the Knicks are thinking about SGA seriously. I think OKC would sell for the kind of price that is being talked about for Mitchell.

Yeah let's pivot to SGA. More of a playmaker.

Can help RJ and Brunson get shots.

[ADeP7]

So grimes was gonna play in the drew league today and didn’t show ?
Why?
“Insert brian windhorst meme”