Cavs/Knicks/OKC in 3 Way Trade Talks (JR+SHUMP TRADED TO CLE)

[moocow007]

He MAY affect our cap space. There's no guarantee he'd stay if he felt he wasn't wanted. Remember, Smith took less money to stay in a situation that he was happy in. If he's not happy there's no reason not to believe that Smith would opt out and go elsewhere.

Shumpert isn't a can't miss asset. But he's a strong defender on an expiring contract. That is value.

Think about it. Why would a team with a better record want the 2 of them if they are such crap? Why would the Cavaliers want to take on a cancer and an injured dud? Why would they want to take a "guaranteed" extra year on Smith if they know that both James and Love can go elsewhere? Maybe...just maybe...they actually don't use their personal dislike of JR Smith (and Shumpert) to cloud their judgment? Why are we assuming that Phil Jackson, the GM (not head coach but GM) is better than the Cavs GM at...well...GM'ing?

Because the Cavs are a terribly run franchise at peak desperation and when JR **** the bed there and aggravates their chemistry issues, you will realize that the idea of him opting out was always a pipe dream. Again, NO OTHER TEAM HAS OFFERED HIM A CONTRACT IN 5 YEARS!

AS far as poorly runned organizations. The Knicks are 5-32.

As far as no one offering him a contract. And you know that because? You are....yet once again...imprinting your own opinion as facts. It's not a good thing to do. Seriously.

[Anotha Knicks fan]

Dammit, I really wanted to get through the whole thread before responding, but I can't! Lol

Just want to say, those of you drawing the line in the sand at this free agency are only perpetuating the same crap we've gone through over and over again. Point is, if we can't get the targets we are aiming for, then you sign a couple of harmless short contracts, and try again the following year. There's no need to overpay some second rate player just because the NY pressure is telling you to do so.

At the very least we will have Melo and the rook next year. Only hoodwinking being done is by your damn selves if you think anyone can turn this mess of a franchise around in a season and change.

[R-DAWG]

Some of you are the worse... you all complain about every damn thing... want this and that... with you all Phil is damned if he does or if he doesn't..

Don't you all see its time for a change? Does it even matter what the hell we got? Did you all really want both JR and Shump around? Players that are not getting better, don't play defense and that have hit their ceilings.

This move was made to maximize Phil option to providing him the opportunity to make immediate change.

Now I just hope Wall kills Jose (which is going to happen) and realize Jose, though a good vet to have around is not really a starting point guard anymore. Could be a 2 or 6th man.. but we need total change in our backcourt...

It is time for a change. It's time to stop taking on long term contracts like Jose Calderon. It's time to turn assets, like Tyson Chandler and Iman Shumpert, into 1st rd picks. It's time to stop putting all the eggs in one basket. Yes, it's time for change.

Bro you have to give something to get something and obviously the league didn't think they were worth 1st rd picks... so thats everyone's answer to woulda, coulda, shoulda. All eggs in one basket? What are talking about? He is providing himself with option... again complaining about every damn move... Phil has to clear this mess up to fix it... that means getting rid of mostly the old at any cost... you all could second guess his moves all day but in reality all of you don't have a clue how talks of trades really go down... so proceed and entertain yourselves on woulda, coulda and shoulda..

In business when there's a mess and new management comes in, the old is removed.. employees are let go (really means fired and don't let the door hit you on your way out), or demoted (really a tactic to force them to quit)... and this is done without anything in return, even though some were really great employee's...

When a field of crop is sicken, to start anew... the field must be burnet down (get rid of) as to prevent the old from coming back and infecting the new.

Phil added to the mess with Calderon.

Could have easily used the stretch provision on Smith and Felton

Tuned down a 1st rd pick for Shumpert during the draft

Turned an asset in Chandler into a long term liability - Calderon's contract.

All his eggs are in on free agency. If we miss we don't have the assets, without giving up our top 5 pick which in my mind is off limits, to improve the team.

[PMFJB]

He MAY affect our cap space. There's no guarantee he'd stay if he felt he wasn't wanted. Remember, Smith took less money to stay in a situation that he was happy in. If he's not happy there's no reason not to believe that Smith would opt out and go elsewhere.

Shumpert isn't a can't miss asset. But he's a strong defender on an expiring contract. That is value.

Think about it. Why would a team with a better record want the 2 of them if they are such crap? Why would the Cavaliers want to take on a cancer and an injured dud? Why would they want to take a "guaranteed" extra year on Smith if they know that both James and Love can go elsewhere? Maybe...just maybe...they actually don't use their personal dislike of JR Smith (and Shumpert) to cloud their judgment? Why are we assuming that Phil Jackson, the GM (not head coach but GM) is better than the Cavs GM at...well...GM'ing?

Because the Cavs are a terribly run franchise at peak desperation and when JR **** the bed there and aggravates their chemistry issues, you will realize that the idea of him opting out was always a pipe dream. Again, NO OTHER TEAM HAS OFFERED HIM A CONTRACT IN 5 YEARS!

AS far as poorly runned organizations. The Knicks are 5-32.

As far as no one offering him a contract. And you know that because? You are....yet once again...imprinting your own opinion as facts. It's not a good thing to do. Seriously.

Pretty much. The Cavs are trying to win a title. They thought getting both Shump and JR was better than having Waiters who netted them a 1st round pick.

This wasn't a trade where they took on our players to get worse or go under the cap. It was a trade that they thought would help their championship aspirations.

We should be able to get more value than a 2nd rounder for helping someone get closer to their title aspirations.

[ORANGEandBLUE]

AS far as poorly runned organizations. The Knicks are 5-32.

As far as no one offering him a contract. And you know that because? You are....yet once again...imprinting your own opinion as facts. It's not a good thing to do. Seriously.

Offers get reported in this press generally... so if an offer was made you should be able to provide a link to it.

[Nazrmohamed]

I want a solid starter at every position and a solid backup at every position as well. I actually don't think you need other superstars. It does seem like it, but that's because we haven't even realized a solid starting five
Felton was the 46th ranked pg in the league
Shumpert was a failure
Amare at best is a 24 min player
Tyson was really the only other Bonafide starter

And I mean guys who'd start anywhere. So you go from that..............to you always need two all-star max talents. And what scares me is that the Knicks are advertising this so thirsty that as already said, if true maxes are gone we will overpay for Milsap.

Here's what I would do. Without Calderon going we still have one max and a cheap player budget right? I'd grab two guys and try to stay flexible, maybe even trade Calderon next year. If we land a top three pick those guys are all nba ready and future stars anyway. So to me you want to build depth through free agency.

I'd draft Towns and in free agency try to steal Matthews and Hibbert. Not all that sexy I know but still solid and it addresses key positions the Knicks need help in now. The Knicks have no paint presence both offensively our defensively and they got no shooters for when defenses collapse on Melo. And I know the idea is that you don't tank for role players but you do tank to build a complete team and to me blowing your load on Monroe and then being done for the summer isn't great either. ( this whole argument is under the assumption that LMA and Gasol aren't coming). How bout we build a solid team?

But anyway then you're looking at
Calderon
Matthews
Melo
Towns
Hibbert

That's a second round team at least in the East with potential to go higher. "But Nazr we wanna contend". And I get that. But the following year we'd have alittle more space to sign at least a midlevel talent and all of a sudden Towns is really starting to come into his own as a go to option. I think y'all are forgetting that.

But TODAY, or in 2015 actually, you'd have probably one of the longest teams in the league. A defensive team at that, with Melo and perhaps not elite scorers but there are no Feltons in this group who dribble off their own feet. There are no Shumpert who can't find a shot or finish. No Amares or Bargnanis to depend on but not be around. Just a real solid playoff ready lineup

[Fat Kat]

Some of you are the worse... you all complain about every damn thing... want this and that... with you all Phil is damned if he does or if he doesn't..

Don't you all see its time for a change? Does it even matter what the hell we got? Did you all really want both JR and Shump around? Players that are not getting better, don't play defense and that have hit their ceilings.

This move was made to maximize Phil option to providing him the opportunity to make immediate change.

Now I just hope Wall kills Jose (which is going to happen) and realize Jose, though a good vet to have around is not really a starting point guard anymore. Could be a 2 or 6th man.. but we need total change in our backcourt...

It is time for a change. It's time to stop taking on long term contracts like Jose Calderon. It's time to turn assets, like Tyson Chandler and Iman Shumpert, into 1st rd picks. It's time to stop putting all the eggs in one basket. Yes, it's time for change.

Bro you have to give something to get something and obviously the league didn't think they were worth 1st rd picks... so thats everyone's answer to woulda, coulda, shoulda. All eggs in one basket? What are talking about? He is providing himself with option... again complaining about every damn move... Phil has to clear this mess up to fix it... that means getting rid of mostly the old at any cost... you all could second guess his moves all day but in reality all of you don't have a clue how talks of trades really go down... so proceed and entertain yourselves on woulda, coulda and shoulda..

In business when there's a mess and new management comes in, the old is removed.. employees are let go (really means fired and don't let the door hit you on your way out), or demoted (really a tactic to force them to quit)... and this is done without anything in return, even though some were really great employee's...

When a field of crop is sicken, to start anew... the field must be burnet down (get rid of) as to prevent the old from coming back and infecting the new.

Yep.

To change culture, they suggest a “tipping point” approach to management. First of all, recognizing you won’t be able to convert everyone at once, start with people who have disproportionate influence in the organization. Get them committed to the change, or, failing that, get them out. And once they are committed to change, shine a spotlight on their accomplishments, so others get the message.

[Deeeez Knicks]

boom....there's the young players everyone wanted. all on cheap contracts.

I've been informed that some of these players don't count though.

We want young players who are talented. Not young players just because they are young.
Acy is a journeyman in this league.
Thanasis is tbd
Early is tbd
Larkin is a backup at best.

Look I am trying to be optimistic. I didn't say anything bad after the Tyson trade. But this trade just smells like a Walsh trade. And I hated Walsh.

That’s the type of young talent you are going to get for Tyson, Felton, JR and Shump. Nobody is giving up lotto picks or great young players for them.

People say they want young talent and picks, but don’t understand that when you are getting late first rounders it’s a crap shoot and you are lucky just to get someone that can make a rotation. And it also takes years for them to develop. I am all for getting picks and young players. But that’s essentially what we got. People don’t even have the patience to see if Cleanthony or Thanasis can pan out. Yet they want to wait until 2017 for some dude? People have already given up on Timmy even though he's one of the better players in the draft.

[PMFJB]

Dammit, I really wanted to get through the whole thread before responding, but I can't! Lol

Just want to say, those of you drawing the line in the sand at this free agency are only perpetuating the same crap we've gone through over and over again. Point is, if we can't get the targets we are aiming for, then you sign a couple of harmless short contracts, and try again the following year. There's no need to overpay some second rate player just because the NY pressure is telling you to do so.

At the very least we will have Melo and the rook next year. Only hoodwinking being done is by your damn selves if you think anyone can turn this mess of a franchise around in a season and change.

I think we all agree on that. Don't overpay BUT when you have a superstar you promised you would get help to and an impatient owner then you don't think it is free agency or bust?

Phil is trying to get better this offseason come hell or high water. If the top free agents shun us then he is going to be left overpaying for people. That is my biggest fear.

If he stands pat after missing out on free agency what does he tell Melo/Dolan? Then we go into 2015 being terrible again and not having our pick. Not a good place to be.

[mpharris36]

He MAY affect our cap space. There's no guarantee he'd stay if he felt he wasn't wanted. Remember, Smith took less money to stay in a situation that he was happy in. If he's not happy there's no reason not to believe that Smith would opt out and go elsewhere.

Shumpert isn't a can't miss asset. But he's a strong defender on an expiring contract. That is value.

Think about it. Why would a team with a better record want the 2 of them if they are such crap? Why would the Cavaliers want to take on a cancer and an injured dud? Why would they want to take a "guaranteed" extra year on Smith if they know that both James and Love can go elsewhere? Maybe...just maybe...they actually don't use their personal dislike of JR Smith (and Shumpert) to cloud their judgment? Why are we assuming that Phil Jackson, the GM (not head coach but GM) is better than the Cavs GM at...well...GM'ing?

The cavs? The same team that is rumored to be having internal problems with the direction of the team. The team that LeBron needs to ok a trade before it happens.

That cavs team?

They were desperate to shake things up. They are just hoping shumpert can play some defense and we all saw that his defense was slipping every year.

This isn't a sexy deal and wasn't suppose to be one. It was sending a guy who wouldn't be back next year with diminishing value to get rid of 6.4 million off the salary. Its just that simple.

Rondo who is an expiring got a 1st, and 2nd and expiring contracts.

Waiters who is a young guard that is under contract got a heavily protected 1st.

what makes anyone think shumpert has anywhere near the value either of those guys have and he is a RFA coming off an injury.

[god shammgod]

AS far as poorly runned organizations. The Knicks are 5-32.

As far as no one offering him a contract. And you know that because? You are....yet once again...imprinting your own opinion as facts. It's not a good thing to do. Seriously.

Offers get reported in this press generally... so if an offer was made you should be able to provide a link to it.

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/22539980/report-bucks-interested-in-knicks-jr-smith-chris-copeland

The Milwaukee Bucks have "strong" interest in the New York Knicks J.R. Smith and also want to make an offer to his teammate Chris Copeland, two league sources confirmed to ESPN.com. The Bucks will be entering free agency with their starting backcourt, Brandon Jennings and Monta Ellis, testing free agency. But they also have leverage because they are under the cap, unlike the Knicks, and they can outbid for the services of Smith and Copeland.

[BowlRips]

I understand TPE's last 1 years.
Are they still in effect if we dip below the salary cap?

[Tron Carter]

Real life Perd Hapley.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/magicjohnson/status/552304887888084993[/tweet]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/OrdioMongo/status/552306567232888832[/tweet]

[PMFJB]

AS far as poorly runned organizations. The Knicks are 5-32.

As far as no one offering him a contract. And you know that because? You are....yet once again...imprinting your own opinion as facts. It's not a good thing to do. Seriously.

Offers get reported in this press generally... so if an offer was made you should be able to provide a link to it.

No they don't. No one knew of these two trades coming.

Not everything is out in the public.

[mpharris36]

I think the cavs did this to get some of waiters production out of there 2 guard spot with shump and JR. Then use the pick and maybe Memphis pick to get a center.

They know they have to make Bron Bron happy.

[K_ick_God]

Another funny observation -- R-DAWG keeps talking about that Memphis pick like it's gold and we got dung -- well go look at the protections. Looks pretty likely it will be a bottom 10 pick in a couple years. Last I checked a pick at 24 is exactly 7 spots from the 2nd round. And the lower you go in the draft, the less a few spots in draft order matter. The difference between a pick between, say, 7 and 14 is a lot bigger than the difference between the 27th and 39th pick in the draft.

It's why Hinkie is loading up on 2nds. Because they are favorable contracts and don't hugely reduce your shots of getting a good player. Not that I'm that excited about the 2nd. But I wouldn't be excited about the Memphis pick, either, just because it has a phony condition on it that sends it from 6-14 only for this year and next. News flash -- that protection means nothing because it won't yield a pick and then it rolls into 6-30 which is where it will be and it's a decent bet that Memphis will still be pretty good.

It's this kind of thing that is annoying. Salivating over a 1st round pick that won't be that good, and dismissing a pick that may be nearby. It's silly. And by the way, because of guaranteed deals, the 28, 29, 30 picks, etc., are worse than just getting 2nds where the contracts are better and you may have about the same chance of finding a steal like D Green.

Hinkee isn't just loading up on 2nds. He's had 2 lotto picks in the last 2 drafts. 1st round picks are great assets. Weather it be the Memphis pick, the OKC pick, the whatever pick. We have had 2 1st rd picks over the last 5 years and are still down 1. This is a major reason why we are in the position we are in today. The Bulls turned 2 bottom 10 picks into Jimmy Butler and Nikola Mirtoic in a year they won 62 games. Dallas turned a likely bottom 10 pick into Rajon Rondo. It's just another asset to play with if we miss in free agency. Or if we need to move a contract. Or if we need to add a cheap role player.

Dallas is more or less renting Rondo who wants a Max and is not playing particularly well. And Ainge wanted to steer him away from the East/Knicks.

And what do the Bulls' good picks have to do with Phil? Nothing really. Yes you can find good players all over the draft but it's a crap shoot. Bulls have blown just as many picks as they nailed, probably more, over the last several years.

[R-DAWG]

He MAY affect our cap space. There's no guarantee he'd stay if he felt he wasn't wanted. Remember, Smith took less money to stay in a situation that he was happy in. If he's not happy there's no reason not to believe that Smith would opt out and go elsewhere.

Shumpert isn't a can't miss asset. But he's a strong defender on an expiring contract. That is value.

Think about it. Why would a team with a better record want the 2 of them if they are such crap? Why would the Cavaliers want to take on a cancer and an injured dud? Why would they want to take a "guaranteed" extra year on Smith if they know that both James and Love can go elsewhere? Maybe...just maybe...they actually don't use their personal dislike of JR Smith (and Shumpert) to cloud their judgment? Why are we assuming that Phil Jackson, the GM (not head coach but GM) is better than the Cavs GM at...well...GM'ing?

Because the Cavs are a terribly run franchise at peak desperation and when JR **** the bed there and aggravates their chemistry issues, you will realize that the idea of him opting out was always a pipe dream. Again, NO OTHER TEAM HAS OFFERED HIM A CONTRACT IN 5 YEARS!

Um, no. The Cavs got a great deal here. They filled a need with Shumpert. They gained long term flexibility with JR's expiring next summer and another 1st rd pick. They may have even upgraded from Waiters with Smith. Cleveland has handled the last 4 years perfectly from grabbing an extra 1st rd pick for eating Baron Davis' contract, to stockpiling 1st rd picks, to grabbing Haywoods contract and trade exceptions. Sure, they got lucky. So did Miami. So did San Antonio with Duncan. So did the Lakers with Kobe.

The Cavs have 3 stars in their prime. Own 2 other teams 1st rd picks, and have $16.4 million in expiring this summer (with only $6.4 guaranteed), along with a $5.3m TPE. Sure they made their mistakes with Bennett over Oladipo and maybe the Jarrett Jack contract. But when you stockpile draft picks and don't take on crazy long term deals it's easy to write off a pick for clearing Jarret Jack or the pick moved for Luol Deng.

I give the Cavs a lot of credit for what they have done.

[god shammgod]

The New York Knicks will have to compete with the Detroit Pistons and Milwaukee Bucks if they want to re-sign J.R. Smith, according to Ian Begley. The shooting guard is drawing interest from both teams, who hope to sign him away from the Knicks after his career year in New York.

http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2013/7/2/4488904/jr-smith-nba-free-agency-2013-jr-smith-knicks-bucks-pistons

[PMFJB]

He MAY affect our cap space. There's no guarantee he'd stay if he felt he wasn't wanted. Remember, Smith took less money to stay in a situation that he was happy in. If he's not happy there's no reason not to believe that Smith would opt out and go elsewhere.

Shumpert isn't a can't miss asset. But he's a strong defender on an expiring contract. That is value.

Think about it. Why would a team with a better record want the 2 of them if they are such crap? Why would the Cavaliers want to take on a cancer and an injured dud? Why would they want to take a "guaranteed" extra year on Smith if they know that both James and Love can go elsewhere? Maybe...just maybe...they actually don't use their personal dislike of JR Smith (and Shumpert) to cloud their judgment? Why are we assuming that Phil Jackson, the GM (not head coach but GM) is better than the Cavs GM at...well...GM'ing?

The cavs? The same team that is rumored to be having internal problems with the direction of the team. The team that LeBron needs to ok a trade before it happens.

That cavs team?

They were desperate to shake things up. They are just hoping shumpert can play some defense and we all saw that his defense was slipping every year.

This isn't a sexy deal and wasn't suppose to be one. It was sending a guy who wouldn't be back next year with diminishing value to get rid of 6.4 million off the salary. Its just that simple.

Rondo who is an expiring got a 1st, and 2nd and expiring contracts.

Waiters who is a young guard that is under contract got a heavily protected 1st.

what makes anyone think shumpert has anywhere near the value either of those guys have and he is a RFA coming off an injury.

So basically Lebron , the best player in the game, thought JR and Shump were better than Dion.

If that is the case I am sure others have the same train of thought in the nba.

[KNIXFAN_83]

Anyone who hates this deal clearly hasn't watched the last 15 years. We are finally rebuilding the right way. Clearing cap space and starting over with Melo still in his prime locked in. If we are able to get the first pick in the draft your looking at a completely different situation next year.