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Donovan Mitchell Thread #6 - Something might actually happen in this one!!!!!!

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Re: Donovan Mitchell Thread #6 - Something might actually happen in this one!!!!!! 

Post#1501 » by Gravy » Mon Jul 25, 2022 12:32 am

Iron Mantis wrote:
Gravy wrote:
KnicksNext wrote:
You're assuming Randle is going to accept that he's now the third wheel. It's going to be fascinating to see how the Randle situation plays out if we get Mitchell too.

This season in the 4th quarter Randle was tied for 4th in shot attempts behind IQ, RJ and Rose so he probably wants other good players on the team to have the ball more.

What are his 3rd quarter attempts like?

Somehow I feel like after he has shot the Knicks out of the game in the 3rd, he's predictably scared and defers so someone else can dig the team out of the hole. :lol:

1st in 3rd qtr shot attempts...
But he also has the highest fg% of the starters except Mitch in the 3rd so they were all shooting us out the game lol.
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Re: Donovan Mitchell Thread #6 - Something might actually happen in this one!!!!!! 

Post#1502 » by Clyde_Style » Mon Jul 25, 2022 12:44 am

Gravy wrote:
KnicksNext wrote:
Gravy wrote:Last year team defenses would double Randle and force him into a turnover. This season he should get more 1-1 matchups. If he wins those the Knicks will look much better. RJ will probably be the guy left open so he needs to be a better shooter than before.


You're assuming Randle is going to accept that he's now the third wheel. It's going to be fascinating to see how the Randle situation plays out if we get Mitchell too.

This season in the 4th quarter Randle was tied for 4th in shot attempts behind IQ, RJ and Rose so he probably wants other good players on the team to have the ball more.


His psychological issues have to be taken into consideration when looking at those stats. I watched at least 75 games last season and what I saw was a guy who was at times gun shy in the fourth.

Many here will recall multiple games where he purposely refused to take a shot for long stretches during a game and would just dump the ball to a teammate. It was him acting out in a passive aggressive manner and it was blatantly obvious when he did it.

Randle was well aware he was being criticized as a ball hog so his childish response at times was to overpass. It was another way for him to flip the middle finger at the fans. And his teammates didn't benefit either if he had the best shot and didn't take it.

You cannot interpret Randle's 4th quarter stats from last season without this insight. He was a complete head case.

I will say he did exhibit this behavior in certain games in more than the 4th quarter so it may not be about the quarter in question, but his stats were not just a reflection of him having a down year, but also about how he chose to play the game (i.e. angry and stubbornly).
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Re: Donovan Mitchell Thread #6 - Something might actually happen in this one!!!!!! 

Post#1503 » by Iron Mantis » Mon Jul 25, 2022 12:44 am

Gravy wrote:
Iron Mantis wrote:
Gravy wrote:This season in the 4th quarter Randle was tied for 4th in shot attempts behind IQ, RJ and Rose so he probably wants other good players on the team to have the ball more.

What are his 3rd quarter attempts like?

Somehow I feel like after he has shot the Knicks out of the game in the 3rd, he's predictably scared and defers so someone else can dig the team out of the hole. :lol:

1st in 3rd qtr shot attempts...
But he also has the highest fg% of the starters except Mitch in the 3rd so they were all shooting us out the game lol.

Right.

His 3rd quarter turnovers were likely high too. I feel the Knicks always lose all the momentum in the 2nd half, final minutes of the 3rd
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Re: Donovan Mitchell Thread #6 - Something might actually happen in this one!!!!!! 

Post#1504 » by B8RcDeMktfxC » Mon Jul 25, 2022 12:47 am

KnicksGod wrote:
B8RcDeMktfxC wrote:I do wonder whether the Knicks are thinking about SGA seriously. I think OKC would sell for the kind of price that is being talked about for Mitchell.


Yeah let's pivot to SGA. More of a playmaker.

Can help RJ and Brunson get shots.

Well, my thought is that Leon Rose can apply some pressure on Ainge because I do think both parties would be satisfied by an SGA deal, albeit that there are nepotistic reasons why Mitchell might be preferred.
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Re: Donovan Mitchell Thread #6 - Something might actually happen in this one!!!!!! 

Post#1505 » by iLLmatic860 » Mon Jul 25, 2022 1:00 am

Shai is 6’6 Too!
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Re: Donovan Mitchell Thread #6 - Something might actually happen in this one!!!!!! 

Post#1506 » by Capn'O » Mon Jul 25, 2022 1:06 am

Yes. All the things for SGA.
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Re: Donovan Mitchell Thread #6 - Something might actually happen in this one!!!!!! 

Post#1507 » by Gravy » Mon Jul 25, 2022 1:06 am

Clyde_Style wrote:
Gravy wrote:
KnicksNext wrote:
You're assuming Randle is going to accept that he's now the third wheel. It's going to be fascinating to see how the Randle situation plays out if we get Mitchell too.

This season in the 4th quarter Randle was tied for 4th in shot attempts behind IQ, RJ and Rose so he probably wants other good players on the team to have the ball more.


His psychological issues have to be taken into consideration when looking at those stats. I watched at least 75 games last season and what I saw was a guy who was at times gun shy in the fourth.

Many here will recall multiple games where he purposely refused to take a shot for long stretches during a game and would just dump the ball to a teammate. It was him acting out in a passive aggressive manner and it was blatantly obvious when he did it.

Randle was well aware he was being criticized as a ball hog so his childish response at times was to overpass. It was another way for him to flip the middle finger at the fans. And his teammates didn't benefit either if he had the best shot and didn't take it.

You cannot interpret Randle's 4th quarter stats from last season without this insight. He was a complete head case.

I will say he did exhibit this behavior in certain games in more than the 4th quarter so it may not be about the quarter in question, but his stats were not just a reflection of him having a down year, but also about how he chose to play the game (i.e. angry and stubbornly).

There were times he acted out against the fans and times he just lost all his confidence. I'd say he mostly knew he wasnt good enough to be the man so those times he passed it to someone else instead of hearing more boos. At least now he will have Donovan and Brunson to pass it to.
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Re: Donovan Mitchell Thread #6 - Something might actually happen in this one!!!!!! 

Post#1508 » by Gravy » Mon Jul 25, 2022 1:09 am

Iron Mantis wrote:
Gravy wrote:
Iron Mantis wrote:What are his 3rd quarter attempts like?

Somehow I feel like after he has shot the Knicks out of the game in the 3rd, he's predictably scared and defers so someone else can dig the team out of the hole. :lol:

1st in 3rd qtr shot attempts...
But he also has the highest fg% of the starters except Mitch in the 3rd so they were all shooting us out the game lol.

Right.

His 3rd quarter turnovers were likely high too. I feel the Knicks always lose all the momentum in the 2nd half, final minutes of the 3rd

Thats when the defense tightens up and everyone's flaws gets exposed especially without a pg to settle the team down or anyone to make a clutch basket.
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Re: Donovan Mitchell Thread #6 - Something might actually happen in this one!!!!!! 

Post#1509 » by stuporman » Mon Jul 25, 2022 1:11 am

KnicksNext wrote:So many people think the Knicks are the team with the leverage here. That's completely false. The Knicks are not the team holding a 25 year star. Ainge will wait it out until he gets the trade he wants. They have Mitchell locked in for four years and won't give in and give him up for less that whatever Ainge's asking price is.

It's the Knicks who are desperate (the front office, not the fans). Can you imagine if this deal doesn't get done, and Mitchell goes to say, the Heat, Rose and Co. will get crucified by all media, local and national. And the majority of fans will be pissed as well. Utah knows this and will wait until Rose can't take the pressure anymore and caves. I don't want this to happen, but it's funny to see so many Knicks fans think the Knicks somehow have any leverage.

Mitchell has stayed quiet as well. It's not like he's out there demanding this or that. I'm sure they communicate every little detail with him, and have told him if he's patient he'll get what he wants. Rose will cave eventually because he has to. At this point he has no choice but the close this deal.


There's more than one leverage in any negotiation so your assertion that Ainge has it but fail to recognize the other party having leverage is flawed analysis.

Ainge can't get what no team in the league is offering, right now the Knicks have what Ainge wants and no other team has that. This is called leverage, it's not an either/or, all one none for the other type of scenario, there's multiple forms of it and different parties at the negotiating table have certain aspects of it so it just depends on who can leverage their own to get a better deal.

Sure Ainge has the 'star' but he doesn't have the luxury of time, Mitchell isn't locked in for 4 years, it's 3 and then Mitchell can leave and Ainge loses him for nothing. Well, he can just trade him before then you may say. If Mitchell tells the media and other teams he's only signing with the Knicks, which is possible, then teams won't give up the offer Ainge craves...he lost value by waiting.

What if Mitchell blows out a knee half way through the season? There goes most of the contract time Ainge thought he had to peddle right after DM helped the team win too many games to be in the running for Wemby. Not to mention a undersized SG who's game is predicated on athleticism now has health question marks. I don't wish injury on anyone but it's a risk Ainge is taking.

Mitchell has been quiet? There already was a report he was concerned about the direction of the franchise and what do you think Ainge told him? If Ainge said we're dealing you then goes back on that promise he's a snake and Mitchell might not be as silent anymore. If Mitchell gets noisy calling out Ainge publicly he now has a messier situation while trying to work a deal.

Do you think the Jazz told Mitchell when he was negotiating the extension that they were going trade for assets, cut his best friend and tank for the duration of his contract right as he's entering his prime years? I doubt it, so if they said one thing and are doing another they lied to him and he might get noisy about that. How would that look to other players if they treat their 'star' this way? Not a good look at all.

Right now his value is at an all time high and the market is ripe for him to get a nice haul because there's a team that wants him that he wants and that team has the assets Ainge desires. But it's not an open ended time frame, it's this summer, as soon as the season begins some of that ripe market starts to rot away and it can get worse from here, it's unlikely to get better for offers.

So Ainge has pressure on him to make a deal before the season meaning the Knicks have another leverage to ply knowing he doesn't want to let this drag out with the potential for decreasing value much higher than they would probably admit publicly but know privately....and the Knicks know it, too. If he gets too greedy he might wind up costing the franchise assets because he's getting too cute.

We can ask who has more pressure to get the deal done and that's matter of opinion. The media will tell us it's the Knicks because they are the ones putting pressure on them but you think Rose give a crap what the media says or thinks? Bah! The fans will be upset if the media tells them nonstop for months the Knicks are getting Mitchell and it doesn't happen but the Garden will be packed opening night anyway.

So you may want to reassess your simplistic view that Ainge has all the leverage because he has the star and the Knicks have none because they don't. It's not that simple.
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Re: Donovan Mitchell Thread #6 - Something might actually happen in this one!!!!!! 

Post#1510 » by Clyde_Style » Mon Jul 25, 2022 1:12 am

Gravy wrote:
Clyde_Style wrote:
Gravy wrote:This season in the 4th quarter Randle was tied for 4th in shot attempts behind IQ, RJ and Rose so he probably wants other good players on the team to have the ball more.


His psychological issues have to be taken into consideration when looking at those stats. I watched at least 75 games last season and what I saw was a guy who was at times gun shy in the fourth.

Many here will recall multiple games where he purposely refused to take a shot for long stretches during a game and would just dump the ball to a teammate. It was him acting out in a passive aggressive manner and it was blatantly obvious when he did it.

Randle was well aware he was being criticized as a ball hog so his childish response at times was to overpass. It was another way for him to flip the middle finger at the fans. And his teammates didn't benefit either if he had the best shot and didn't take it.

You cannot interpret Randle's 4th quarter stats from last season without this insight. He was a complete head case.

I will say he did exhibit this behavior in certain games in more than the 4th quarter so it may not be about the quarter in question, but his stats were not just a reflection of him having a down year, but also about how he chose to play the game (i.e. angry and stubbornly).

There were times he acted out against the fans and times he just lost all his confidence. I'd say he mostly knew he wasnt good enough to be the man so those times he passed it to someone else instead of hearing more boos. At least now he will have Donovan and Brunson to pass it to.


Not counting chickens, but just Brunson alone gives Randle the opportunity to show he can play in the flow of the game and defer to a primary ballhandler. It's not really all that difficult to do, but his attitude was so rubbish last year I can't take anything for granted with Randle. He really has to prove to EVERYONE that he can play team ball. He does that then we'll be competitive. He doesn't and he'll end up in the doghouse finally since Thibs will not be as dependent on Randle.
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Re: Donovan Mitchell Thread #6 - Something might actually happen in this one!!!!!! 

Post#1511 » by strummer » Mon Jul 25, 2022 1:13 am

Gravy wrote:
KnicksNext wrote:
Gravy wrote:Last year team defenses would double Randle and force him into a turnover. This season he should get more 1-1 matchups. If he wins those the Knicks will look much better. RJ will probably be the guy left open so he needs to be a better shooter than before.


You're assuming Randle is going to accept that he's now the third wheel. It's going to be fascinating to see how the Randle situation plays out if we get Mitchell too.

This season in the 4th quarter Randle was tied for 4th in shot attempts behind IQ, RJ and Rose so he probably wants other good players on the team to have the ball more.


That is because of Thib's inflexible substitution patterns. Obi played the beginning of the 4th, Randle back in to finish the game. The fact others had more shots in the 4th was a simple playing time correlation, not any magnanimous behavior on his part.

Quickly averaged 9.0 minutes in the 4th, Rose 7.8 and RJ 8.0. Randle only averaged 6.8.

It is foolish to assign an unknowable motivation to your observations.

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/julius-randle-4th-quarter-minutes-played-in-2022
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Re: Donovan Mitchell Thread #6 - Something might actually happen in this one!!!!!! 

Post#1512 » by Knox » Mon Jul 25, 2022 1:16 am

snadler wrote:
B8RcDeMktfxC wrote:I do wonder whether the Knicks are thinking about SGA seriously. I think OKC would sell for the kind of price that is being talked about for Mitchell.



Nope, Mitchell..too many connections, agency, Leon represented him, Knicks coaching staff..from NY..etc..


If SGA signs with CAA, it would happen for sure
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Re: Donovan Mitchell Thread #6 - Something might actually happen in this one!!!!!! 

Post#1513 » by iLLmatic860 » Mon Jul 25, 2022 1:30 am

Knox wrote:
snadler wrote:
B8RcDeMktfxC wrote:I do wonder whether the Knicks are thinking about SGA seriously. I think OKC would sell for the kind of price that is being talked about for Mitchell.



Nope, Mitchell..too many connections, agency, Leon represented him, Knicks coaching staff..from NY..etc..


If SGA signs with CAA, it would happen for sure

Kentucky connection
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Re: Donovan Mitchell Thread #6 - Something might actually happen in this one!!!!!! 

Post#1514 » by Knox » Mon Jul 25, 2022 1:32 am

iLLmatic860 wrote:
Knox wrote:
snadler wrote:

Nope, Mitchell..too many connections, agency, Leon represented him, Knicks coaching staff..from NY..etc..


If SGA signs with CAA, it would happen for sure

Kentucky connection


That gives me hope lol
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Re: Donovan Mitchell Thread #6 - Something might actually happen in this one!!!!!! 

Post#1515 » by RHODEY » Mon Jul 25, 2022 1:36 am

B8RcDeMktfxC wrote:
KnicksGod wrote:
B8RcDeMktfxC wrote:I do wonder whether the Knicks are thinking about SGA seriously. I think OKC would sell for the kind of price that is being talked about for Mitchell.


Yeah let's pivot to SGA. More of a playmaker.

Can help RJ and Brunson get shots.

Well, my thought is that Leon Rose can apply some pressure on Ainge because I do think both parties would be satisfied by an SGA deal, albeit that there are nepotistic reasons why Mitchell might be preferred.


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Re: Donovan Mitchell Thread #6 - Something might actually happen in this one!!!!!! 

Post#1516 » by TraveyKnicks31 » Mon Jul 25, 2022 1:50 am

I mean is Donovan better than SGA? Be honest about it
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I think Donovan stays in Utah 

Post#1517 » by jazzfan1971 » Mon Jul 25, 2022 1:51 am

I just don't see you guys paying the price Ainge is asking.

What would even be the plan after trading for him anyway? Just giving opponents a free path to the rim every time? It's not like you'd have Gobert back in the paint to mask those mistakes.

Better to just keep all those picks, and either use them or use them sparingly. Like if the Jazz would take Randall and those 3 non-NY firsts, that might make sense.

But, it's not all bad for the Jazz either. Assuming we can move Mitchell to PG full time and bring in a SG with some size.

We will see. I expect this will just go down as one more of Ainge's 'almost' trades.
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Re: Donovan Mitchell Thread #6 - Something might actually happen in this one!!!!!! 

Post#1518 » by stuporman » Mon Jul 25, 2022 1:53 am

RHODEY wrote:
B8RcDeMktfxC wrote:
KnicksGod wrote:
Yeah let's pivot to SGA. More of a playmaker.

Can help RJ and Brunson get shots.

Well, my thought is that Leon Rose can apply some pressure on Ainge because I do think both parties would be satisfied by an SGA deal, albeit that there are nepotistic reasons why Mitchell might be preferred.


Nepostism should never trump Basketball logic. Shai is the better fit.


I agree but I suspect OKC is planning on running a big line up with Mann/SGA/Giddey along the back court and wing spots that's why they haven't been shopping him. Plus, they have plenty of picks, if they are trading him it won't be what Ainge is looking for.
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Re: I think Donovan stays in Utah 

Post#1520 » by DaGawd » Mon Jul 25, 2022 2:03 am

acquire him and figure out the rest later
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