Donovan Mitchell Thread #6 - Something might actually happen in this one!!!!!!

[Jalen Bluntson]

Oh. here's an interesting angle, how many of you think the Knicks have already reached 'bidding against themselves'' level.

They have exceeded the next best team's offer at least once and not gotten the deal done so they upped it and still no deal?

That is the full on bidding against yourself situation.

Who thinks they are already there ... and still need to up it or no deal. Think the should? Where does that end? Always another ask.

I am hoping they drew a line in the sand and that's it. Not many teams can match their offer. Not sure any that can are even interested. Smart negotiation you either ask for the moon and come down to what you're comfortable with...or low ball and come up to what you're comfortable with. In the past...this team outbid themselves. Hopefully this time they are going about things the smart way.

The fact that it hasn't happened already could mean they aren't bidding against themselves. Could mean a number of things. This could drag out for weeks and then not even happen but, I don't see Ainge wanting that to be the case in the end.

I just hope it's a deal that makes sense for the Knicks even if they overpay a little. The Knicks still need assets to trade in the future to really make the push to contend. Brunson/DM are not enough to win it all.

[ADeP7]

Welp Not the woj bomb I want but hopefully this starts to move the Mitchell talk.

Woj saying Celtics have emerged as trade partner for Durant

[ADeP7]

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[Cappy_Smurf]

People for whatever reason think the Knicks have no leverage. What? The Knicks may want DM, but they dont "need" him. DM to Knicks rumor is a consequence of Gobert to Minn. That was the extent of our pursuit of DM.

Ainge is a min/max and spreadsheet guy so he 100% understands that when he made the Gobert trade he is going full Sam Hinkie/Presti and asset collection/tank mode. There is no way Ainge wants to go into the season with DM because he wants to tank. We know Ainge wants to tank because he loves his spreadsheets, analytics, stats, and being a min/max guy.
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As a Jazz fan who has watched the team for 40+ years, I can tell you that Mitchell won't be spoiling any tank Utah has rolling. Anytime Rudy Gobert has missed multiple games over the last few years, the team has been straight trash. Even if Utah brought back the exact same team, minus Gobert, Utah is a play-in team at best. Now, when you consider Jingles is already gone and they are likely to trade other key players, this Utah team will be a disaster, Mitchell or no Mitchell.

[bearadonisdna]

People for whatever reason think the Knicks have no leverage. What? The Knicks may want DM, but they dont "need" him. DM to Knicks rumor is a consequence of Gobert to Minn. That was the extent of our pursuit of DM.

Ainge is a min/max and spreadsheet guy so he 100% understands that when he made the Gobert trade he is going full Sam Hinkie/Presti and asset collection/tank mode. There is no way Ainge wants to go into the season with DM because he wants to tank. We know Ainge wants to tank because he loves his spreadsheets, analytics, stats, and being a min/max guy.
.

As a Jazz fan who has watched the team for 40+ years, I can tell you that Mitchell won't be spoiling any tank Utah has rolling. Anytime Rudy Gobert has missed multiple games over the last few years, the team has been straight trash. Even if Utah brought back the exact same team, minus Gobert, Utah is a play-in team at best. Now, when you consider Jingles is already gone and they are likely to trade other key players, this Utah team will be a disaster, Mitchell or no Mitchell.

Jazz winning with DM in 2023 timeline:
1. Tanking with DM loses his AS status.
2. Jazz: No it don’t
3. NY: yes it will
4. Jazz: if we keep DM how you know if tank?
5. Ny: Don’t know your plan
7. Jazz: If keep DM and coach is good we win.
8. NY: Wow Jazz might play to win.
9 Jazz fan: With or without DM it’s tank.

[Madskillzz024]

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Gambo mentioned this the other day that the Celtics were a real threat when he was talking about that 4 team trade

[bearadonisdna]

Wolves pre Gobert trade were releasing tons of stories about how KAT wasn't a C and they wanted to pair him iwht a defensive C.


what did they do? Make an offer to Ainge that no one could turn down.


why is this important? because we haven't made an offer that Ainge can turn down.


People for whatever reason think the Knicks have no leverage. What? The Knicks may want DM, but they dont "need" him. DM to Knicks rumor is a consequence of Gobert to Minn. That was the extent of our pursuit of DM.

Ainge is a min/max and spreadsheet guy so he 100% understands that when he made the Gobert trade he is going full Sam Hinkie/Presti and asset collection/tank mode. There is no way Ainge wants to go into the season with DM because he wants to tank. We know Ainge wants to tank because he loves his spreadsheets, analytics, stats, and being a min/max guy.

People can say there's a gulf between the ask/offer but none of that matters. I'll bet Ainge will trade DM 1 day before the season starts. Why? because thats his Modus Operandi.

if you want my real tinfoil: we actually have not had a single credible leak on the trade details. the only leaks we've gotten is "done deal" which means nothing, then we got "Knicks offer picks or kids, but not both" which makes a lot of common sense. otherwise, we haven't heard anything.

so this is my theory: they had an agreement in general terms. e.g. (1 or 2 or 3 of these 4 guys) + ( x picks unprotected) + x swap. Ainge has been sitting on his hands since. OR Ainge did a bait and switch on the Knicks and came back and asked for more, or a completely different deal. Which also makes sense because we did get the "Knicks tell teams RJ is off limits" leak.

Great post man good read .
Tin foil ? Might try that sometime . Will try that sometime.
But I’d like to address this leverage thing .
Leverage is something that can be exerted .
And I’m seeing a big ol nothing on the Knicks front .

Utah shoppping around offers. Exerting
Knicks have no other options . Non exertion.

Leverage is something of a hardball my way or the highway negotiation. Both parties feel like they can walk away from the table amicably. In theory they can and it’s the current nature of negotiations but to outside perception both side are too far in to not finalize a deal .

Knicks may need to conjure some kind of leverage that isn’t based and reliant on DM literally asking out.

1. Having the most money isn’t leverage, I can sell my bat for $5 cheaper to a different guy because I think he is cooler.

[bearadonisdna]

(Update: totally whiffed on this stat. Used playoff info instead of reg season . Bad mistake sorry)

Also interesting stat find: 2man combo
DM and Conley were a -14 (playoff stat)
(real stat is +5)
Clarkson and Conley were a +9


Was in trade machine and deciding how to make jazz better with our pieces . Cam Reddish is better than Royce O’Neal straight up .
Clarkson is the better fit next to Conley .
Add Drose to the replace Clarkson as backup guard.
Add Quickley in case he better than a washed up Conley . ( in this case Conley looking good)

So Cam, Rose, Quickley could help their team in replace of DM.
If new coach like small ball , then Obi is probably better than Kessler and maybe more modern player than Gobert .
Throw in Grimes for good measure and they theoretically have a win now team .
For this haul and patching up their team and basically doing Ainges job they only get like 1 NYK Uprotected.

Package:
Cam
Rose
Grimes
Obi
Quickley
NYK unprotected
2 or 3 non NY 1st

[thebuzzardman]

Also interesting stat find: 2man combo
DM and Conley were a -14
Clarkson and Conley were a +9

Was in trade machine and deciding how to make jazz better with our pieces . Cam Reddish is better than Royce O’Neal straight up .
Clarkson is the better fit next to Conley .
Add Drose to the replace Clarkson as backup guard.
Add Quickley in case he better than a washed up Conley . ( in this case Conley looking good)

So Cam, Rose, Quickley could help their team in replace of DM.
If new coach like small ball , then Obi is probably better than Kessler and maybe more modern player than Gobert .
Throw in Grimes for good measure and they theoretically have a win now team .
For this haul and patching up their team and basically doing Ainges job they only get like 1 NYK Uprotected.

Package:
Cam
Rose
Grimes
Obi
Quickley
NYK unprotected
2 or 3 non NY 1st

Good job trading away all the Knicks depth, youth and wing defense

[thebuzzardman]

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Gambo mentioned this the other day that the Celtics were a real threat when he was talking about that 4 team trade

That Gambo guy basically just pulled sh*t out of his left and right

[bearadonisdna]

Also interesting stat find: 2man combo
DM and Conley were a -14
Clarkson and Conley were a +9

Was in trade machine and deciding how to make jazz better with our pieces . Cam Reddish is better than Royce O’Neal straight up .
Clarkson is the better fit next to Conley .
Add Drose to the replace Clarkson as backup guard.
Add Quickley in case he better than a washed up Conley . ( in this case Conley looking good)

So Cam, Rose, Quickley could help their team in replace of DM.
If new coach like small ball , then Obi is probably better than Kessler and maybe more modern player than Gobert .
Throw in Grimes for good measure and they theoretically have a win now team .
For this haul and patching up their team and basically doing Ainges job they only get like 1 NYK Uprotected.

Package:
Cam
Rose
Grimes
Obi
Quickley
NYK unprotected
2 or 3 non NY 1st

Good job trading away all the Knicks depth, youth and wing defense

But keeping a lot of picks and Fournier ! Thought you would have liked that!
Lol no. It’s slightly Facetious offer . Think Ainge going for 1 unprotected ?
Eh the point is the jazz roster was fixable and possibly better than before with a trade Ainge likely scoffs at ( like an idiot) and 1 we should pull the trigger on .

You say you don’t like it , it looks very helpful to jazz. But don’t you think Knicks should make that trade ? Or you will let bench players get in way of attaining star?

[thebuzzardman]

Also interesting stat find: 2man combo
DM and Conley were a -14
Clarkson and Conley were a +9

Was in trade machine and deciding how to make jazz better with our pieces . Cam Reddish is better than Royce O’Neal straight up .
Clarkson is the better fit next to Conley .
Add Drose to the replace Clarkson as backup guard.
Add Quickley in case he better than a washed up Conley . ( in this case Conley looking good)

So Cam, Rose, Quickley could help their team in replace of DM.
If new coach like small ball , then Obi is probably better than Kessler and maybe more modern player than Gobert .
Throw in Grimes for good measure and they theoretically have a win now team .
For this haul and patching up their team and basically doing Ainges job they only get like 1 NYK Uprotected.

Package:
Cam
Rose
Grimes
Obi
Quickley
NYK unprotected
2 or 3 non NY 1st

Good job trading away all the Knicks depth, youth and wing defense

But keeping a lot of picks and Fournier ! Thought you would have liked that!

Keeping Fournier is good.
Keeping picks are good too.

I'm thinking the Knicks split the middle on the above, though of course no idea how. One of the 31 variations we've all brought up.

Then again, The 40 Year Jazz Fan says Jazz suck with Mitchell, so clearly Mitchell is ass and Jazz will only win 5 games with him and get Victor without even trying, so all this talk is for nothing.

[Fury]

Shams:

Meanwhile, eyes and ears around the league also remain fixated on the Utah Jazz and New York Knicks engaging in trade talks surrounding Mitchell. The Knicks’ asset pool — up to eight first-round draft picks and young players such as Quentin Grimes, Immanuel Quickley and Obi Toppin — gives them a clear opportunity to acquire Mitchell, but sources say talks so far have moved slowly and the sides are far from an agreement. With three years guaranteed remaining on Mitchell’s contract, the Jazz are not operating with a sense of urgency and have the time to evaluate the best offers for the 25-year-old.

Mitchell has spent the summer in his usual offseason routine: high-intensity workouts and time with his family and friends. Sources said the three-time NBA All-Star has not requested a trade or attempted to force his way out of Utah, but should the franchise move toward a full rebuild a competitor like Mitchell would prefer to be in an environment geared toward winning now, not later.

Along with New York, several other teams have expressed interest to the Jazz when it comes to Mitchell, such as Washington, Miami, Toronto, Charlotte, Sacramento and Atlanta, according to sources.

Like Brooklyn, the Jazz have held firm on setting a high bar on any potential Mitchell deal, and they expect to be patient throughout the process. For now, the Jazz will continue to evaluate incoming calls and seek ways to balance their roster.

[TraveyKnicks31]

Shams:

Meanwhile, eyes and ears around the league also remain fixated on the Utah Jazz and New York Knicks engaging in trade talks surrounding Mitchell. The Knicks’ asset pool — up to eight first-round draft picks and young players such as Quentin Grimes, Immanuel Quickley and Obi Toppin — gives them a clear opportunity to acquire Mitchell, but sources say talks so far have moved slowly and the sides are far from an agreement. With three years guaranteed remaining on Mitchell’s contract, the Jazz are not operating with a sense of urgency and have the time to evaluate the best offers for the 25-year-old.

Mitchell has spent the summer in his usual offseason routine: high-intensity workouts and time with his family and friends. Sources said the three-time NBA All-Star has not requested a trade or attempted to force his way out of Utah, but should the franchise move toward a full rebuild a competitor like Mitchell would prefer to be in an environment geared toward winning now, not later.

Along with New York, several other teams have expressed interest to the Jazz when it comes to Mitchell, such as Washington, Miami, Toronto, Charlotte, Sacramento and Atlanta, according to sources.

Like Brooklyn, the Jazz have held firm on setting a high bar on any potential Mitchell deal, and they expect to be patient throughout the process. For now, the Jazz will continue to evaluate incoming calls and seek ways to balance their roster.

Said the same **** last week

[knickstape21]

This is gonna drag all the way to the trade deadline, folks

[HopelessKnick]

People for whatever reason think the Knicks have no leverage. What? The Knicks may want DM, but they dont "need" him. DM to Knicks rumor is a consequence of Gobert to Minn. That was the extent of our pursuit of DM.

Ainge is a min/max and spreadsheet guy so he 100% understands that when he made the Gobert trade he is going full Sam Hinkie/Presti and asset collection/tank mode. There is no way Ainge wants to go into the season with DM because he wants to tank. We know Ainge wants to tank because he loves his spreadsheets, analytics, stats, and being a min/max guy.
.

As a Jazz fan who has watched the team for 40+ years, I can tell you that Mitchell won't be spoiling any tank Utah has rolling. Anytime Rudy Gobert has missed multiple games over the last few years, the team has been straight trash. Even if Utah brought back the exact same team, minus Gobert, Utah is a play-in team at best. Now, when you consider Jingles is already gone and they are likely to trade other key players, this Utah team will be a disaster, Mitchell or no Mitchell.

Even through your 40+ years of Jazz experience the numbers don't support your argument at all. Gobert has missed very little time over the past 5 years but he did miss 26 games in 17/18 and 16 games last season. The Jazz went 12-14 in 17/18 (Mitchell's rookie season) and 7-9 last season. That's an overall record of 19-23 without Gobert. While certainly not as good as the average of 50 wins with both of them in there, it does seem to suggest that Mitchell alone in there is likely going to put you out of the top 5. I assume teams like Orlando, Houston, OKC, Spurs will all struggle to win even 25 games. The Jazz with Mitchell are very likely to exceed that number.

The Knicks have much more leverage here and Rose should definitely wait it out. As it is, the Brunson/Mitchell fit is questionable at best and Mitchell is not gonna propel the Knicks into 50+ win territory. Let the Jazz make a deal with some other team. All the supposedly interested teams will fail to even put together a package that is as good as the Knicks worst package. The only team that may reasonably be able to put together a better package is OKC but they certainly won't consider trading unprotected firsts at all in midst of their tank.

The Heat? Yeah let Ainge negotiate with the Heat and get back those unprotected FRPs in the 28-30 range. That will be of tremendous help and a great haul for Mitchell. There is no team that can offer anything close to what the Knicks are offering because the Knicks unprotected FRPs will be still in a solid range (likely 16-22). All the contending teams can only offer extremely low FRPs (25-30 range) and many of them are out of additionaly tradable picks anyways.

Don't budge at all: Let the season begin as it is---if things go bad for the Knicks, we are sitting on 3 picks in a possibly generational draft. If we play well then we'll have even more leverage and less pressure to desperately trade for Mitchell. If the Jazz however start winning some games (say 10-15 to start the season) their tank will look pretty endangered and Ainge's asking price will go down automatically.

Summary: The Knicks have no real competitor for Mitchell. Teams tanking or in lottery land are not gonna trade them unprotected FRPs AT ALL and contending teams would be sending them 25-30 type picks. The Knicks are one of the few, if not the only team that in a post-Mitchell trade scenario would still be sending mid first round picks + additional picks that look mid first round likely. There is literally no other team out there that can dublicate that.

The Jazz biggest priority is a 2023 tank. Time is on the Knicks side here. The Jazz will win some games with Mitchell alone there. Don't bid against yourself. Sit it out. If some team comes along with an insane offer and snatches Mitchell---well so be it. No Knick fan should be dissapointed in not getting a questionable fit for an insane price.

[Rooster8]

Shams:

Meanwhile, eyes and ears around the league also remain fixated on the Utah Jazz and New York Knicks engaging in trade talks surrounding Mitchell. The Knicks’ asset pool — up to eight first-round draft picks and young players such as Quentin Grimes, Immanuel Quickley and Obi Toppin — gives them a clear opportunity to acquire Mitchell, but sources say talks so far have moved slowly and the sides are far from an agreement. With three years guaranteed remaining on Mitchell’s contract, the Jazz are not operating with a sense of urgency and have the time to evaluate the best offers for the 25-year-old.

Mitchell has spent the summer in his usual offseason routine: high-intensity workouts and time with his family and friends. Sources said the three-time NBA All-Star has not requested a trade or attempted to force his way out of Utah, but should the franchise move toward a full rebuild a competitor like Mitchell would prefer to be in an environment geared toward winning now, not later.

Along with New York, several other teams have expressed interest to the Jazz when it comes to Mitchell, such as Washington, Miami, Toronto, Charlotte, Sacramento and Atlanta, according to sources.

Like Brooklyn, the Jazz have held firm on setting a high bar on any potential Mitchell deal, and they expect to be patient throughout the process. For now, the Jazz will continue to evaluate incoming calls and seek ways to balance their roster.

This is good. Thanks

[TraveyKnicks31]

If Danny is really willing to risk the tank because he can’t make a fair trade is just crazy to me lol

[Chanel Bomber]

Also interesting stat find: 2man combo
DM and Conley were a -14
Clarkson and Conley were a +9

Was in trade machine and deciding how to make jazz better with our pieces . Cam Reddish is better than Royce O’Neal straight up .
Clarkson is the better fit next to Conley .
Add Drose to the replace Clarkson as backup guard.
Add Quickley in case he better than a washed up Conley . ( in this case Conley looking good)

So Cam, Rose, Quickley could help their team in replace of DM.
If new coach like small ball , then Obi is probably better than Kessler and maybe more modern player than Gobert .
Throw in Grimes for good measure and they theoretically have a win now team .
For this haul and patching up their team and basically doing Ainges job they only get like 1 NYK Uprotected.

Package:
Cam
Rose
Grimes
Obi
Quickley
NYK unprotected
2 or 3 non NY 1st

I think this was essentially the topic of conversation in the last couple of days. You have to take the +/- of bench players with a grain of salt. Because they play against weaker opposition than the starters, even if line-ups are staggered, so it doesn't necessarily translate to the starting unit, and it isn't necessarily telling of how impactful players would be as starters. In most instances, you will see a regression, which is fairly logical.

The +/- of Clarkson with Conley doesn't mean that he's a better fit than Mitchell.

Royce O'Neale is also a much better 3&D player than Cam, though Cam has yet to reach his final form. I think Cam, as of today, is a downgrade from O'Neale.

[knicksstuff]

Leon putting his foot in the ground and not moving off his stance (yet).... Lets see who caves in first Ainge or Rose