Cavs/Knicks/OKC in 3 Way Trade Talks (JR+SHUMP TRADED TO CLE)

[omerome]

The Josh Smith debacle is just another example of the AWAKENING going on around the league of how DESTRUCTIVE players like JR are. Every year there's a few more Execs who just won't touch him. Only desparate idiots like the Cavs GM.

NO MORE JSMITHS!

we still have the worst one. and the mighty poobha brought him here.

Good thing he's gone after this season.

[god shammgod]

whatever. just bring up the damn kids from westchester so i can watch something.

[NOOB77]

whatever. just bring up the damn kids from westchester so i can watch something.

they will and you will like it

[kosmovitelli]

This trade for the Knicks was financially motivated both short term and long term. They have the option to waive all three players they traded for by Wednesday and not owe them anything.

The Knicks also waived center Samuel Dalembert, a move that will save $3.8 million. In all, the moves to unload Shumpert, Smith and Dalembert will save the team more than $20 million in salary and luxury taxes.

"As our journey moves through this season, we will search for the type of players that fit the style we hope to exhibit to our fans. Our desire to improve our ability to compete," Knicks team president Phil Jackson said in a statement. "These transactions improve our flexibility to the current roster and the salary cap for future seasons."

With Smith's $6.4 million player option for next year now off their books, the Knicks are looking at having in excess of $30 million in cap space next summer. Smith gets a $533,135 trade kicker bonus as part of the deal.

"This was an impactful night in terms of first, the three guys who are not with us anymore," Knicks coach Derek Fisher told reporters Tuesday night. "I spoke to each of them before the game. I told them how much I and we appreciate the efforts made in this transition process. Trying to learn what we were offering, what we were teaching. All three guys made the effort to do so.

"Especially in this league now, guys with expiring contracts they don't necessarily have possibly a long-term future. I think Phil is continuing to look at how we transition as we change the culture of the New York Knicks."

Fisher went on to say that he doesn't think the Knicks are finished making moves.

"I don't think this is the end of this process," Fisher told reporters. "Although right now we're losing some pieces I'm hopeful that our front office is still being very aggressive to try to add some guys that can help us build this team going forward."

JR Smith and Iman Shumpert (and Dalembert) for unguaranteed contracts and a future second round pick ?


I can certainly understand the willingness (or need) to trade unwanted players who don’t fit the style of play Phil Jackson and Derek Fisher want to execute but you need to get some kind of value back. Basically, the price to pay in order to unload JR Smith was Iman Shumpert. As he’s an expiring rookie contract and Knicks needed to tender a qualifying offer to retain him and Phil Jackson probably didn’t want to keep him, I guess that’s the reason Iman Shumpert was jettisoned. Despite his poor play and his injury I still think he probably had more value than that and Phil could have waited for the trade deadline. He cleared more cap room but there’s no guarantee Knicks will even need all that cap room. After only 9 months at the helm, Phil made lots of moves (Felton/Chandler for Calderon, Ellington and Larkin, hired Derek Fisher, re-signed Melo, Ellington and Tyler for Outlaw and Acy Law, JR/Iman for unguaranteed contracts and a second round pick). He revamped the roster and tried to find some balance in the off-season and he failed so far. He added salaries past 2015 with Calderon ($7 million per year) and now he cleared JR Smith contract ($6 million) so he barely broke even.

What Phil’s doing would make sense if we didn’t have Melo , we were rebuilding and we still had the control of our 2016 first round pick. Right now, he cleared approx $30 million in cap room but he has no team, only Melo as a (short term) building block and a potential top 5 lottery pick. Even with $30 million, I doubt you can rebuild a team in one off-season with Melo aging and his injuries. People are making comparisons with 2010 but it’s an entirely different proposition. In 2010, the plan was quite clear : two max slots for two max players (and a 3rd star or a couple of really good role players in 2011). You had several franchise players available in 2010 and if you got Lebron and Wade or Lebron and Bosh, you were almost set. With Lebron, Wade and Bosh, the Heat could fill the rest of the roster with minimum salary players and rookies. As we all know, Melo’s not Lebron and you don’t have a player like Wade or a great complementary player like Bosh who could adapt his game. Another big difference is those guys were young and hungry for a championship and were willing to make sacrifices to make it work. it wasn't just a quick fix to win a championship, it was a plan to win multiple rings. The Heat only won two championships but they made 4 consecutive NBA Finals appearances. In NY, at this point, this situation is just a mess so even if you add Marc Gasol and a good $10 million player to that group of players, that’s not enough to push us over the top. We would barely make the playoffs. Nothing more. Even with the salary cap going up significantly in 2016 (with the newt TV deal), I doubt we will have enough resources and time to make it work. not to mention, there's a looming lockout in 2017 and owners will likely try to lower the salary cap and salaries (change the formula for the salary cap).

Overall, It’s a situation that has the potential to be just a repeat of 2010-2011 (Gasol and whoever PJax can sign would just replace Tyson Chandler and Amare) and it will produce the same results (a team good enough to make it to the second round but nothing more). At this point, even if we don’t have a first round pick in 2016, I’d rather see Phil Jackson end the Melo experiment (trade him for the right package if he can) and rebuild from scratch. Knicks should use their cap room to acquire young players, draft picks and assets and rebuild slowly instead of trying to win now with aging players like Melo and possibly Marc Gasol. Once again, I fear the Knicks may make the same mistake (we maxed out Melo so we better try to win now at all costs, even if it means overpaying and being capped out for the foreseeable future). I think the window to build a team around Melo is closing, we don’t have enough time. I think Knicks should acknowledge the ship has sailed for Melo and it’s time to start over. Same thing for Kevin Durant in 2016. Not enough to build a team attractive enough to lure him, I mean a team where he could be the missing ingredient to push us over the top. That’s what the Knicks should do : build a team slowly with the right pieces and then look for the franchise player who will make us a championship contender. And not the other way around. 2010 was just a one-time opportunity with several franchise players available, including the best player in the NBA (Lebron). 2010 shouldn't be used as a model to rebuild a team via free agency.

Back to the topic at hand, I don’t think it’s a good trade but I understand Phil Jackson’s intention (JR Smith probably wasn’t a player worth keeping for chemistry reasons and Iman Shumpert’s rookie contract will expire at the end of the season so he had to be traded if Phil had no intention to re-sign him next summer), this trade should have netted us more assets but I’m more concerned by the direction of the team (and Phil’s obsession with the triangle) than this particular trade. I guess we’ll see next summer what Phil Jackson really wants to do with this team.

[Bklyn&company]

LOL.. I guess some of you all want Phil fired now... SMH..

[moocow007]

Yeah no reason not to bring up Galloway and Thanasis now. If they trade Calderon sign Steph Curry's brother and add him to the team as well.

[Deeeez Knicks]

That is correct. If the Knicks were rebuilding (and there's real valid arguments for them to do so) the first thing would be to trade Carmelo Anthony. But it's pretty clear whether it's by Jackson or Dolan that they are building around him.

But that could not be done if we didn't resign Melo. And we don't have our pick next year. We are already tanking this season. There is really no risk in waiting a year to see how this pans out. We can always trade Melo in a year. But if we trade Melo now there's no going back from that.

Like I said in the other post, if Anthony was bitten by one of the Cullen's then absolutely, we can just keep trying. But if the goal is to maximize value for Anthony in a trade you really can't wait until 2017. Now is the time. Whether we have our own pick in 2016 or not is offset by father time on Anthony. Ideal world, we'd have traded that player portion of the package for Antony for some draft picks and tanked well before hand. The team before Anthony was headed for middle of the pack limbo. Trading for Anthony was a shot at getting into the upper tier but a real tough one considering how much it cost to get him. As much as folks think I'm an Anthony lover, the ideal, ideal, ideal scenario would have been trading Gallinari and Chandler and Lin when he Linsanitized for future assets and do full rebuild.

I think right now we can go in many different directions. We can trade Melo, we can build around him, we can use our cap space to sign players, we can use our cap space to take on contracts and get picks, we can try for a top player in the draft, we can select and trade the pick for a player. Or maybe we decide once all the options are on the table.

That is why I like where we are right now. Tons of options.

That is why I also don't get the dislike for the plan. We don't even know what the final plan will be and what we are going to do. And almost everyones plans are still in play.

Its just so early in the process.

[Sprewell4Three]

LOL.. I guess some of you all want Phil fired now... SMH..

Alot of them are actually disgruntled Isiah Thomas fans. They'd rather see Phil trade for bloated contracts , trade our picks and kill our flexibility in the off-season.
It's like some people forget how bad the situation financially was with this team not too long ago when we would see endless amount of posts of people complaining that we don't have cap flexibility.

[PMFJB]

Does anyone know what our exact cap space number is?

[duetta]

This summer will be extremely interesting. If it looks like the Knicks are likely to be striking out, expect Anthony to ask out - and maybe we do then do the total rebuild thing.

[moocow007]

LOL.. I guess some of you all want Phil fired now... SMH..

Alot of them are actually disgruntled Isiah Thomas fans. They'd rather see Phil trade for bloated contracts , trade our picks and kill our flexibility in the off-season.
It's like some people forget how bad the situation financially was with this team not too long ago when we would see endless amount of posts of people complaining that we don't have cap flexibility.

Or they don't believe that Jackson's every move is golden and from the gods. Either or.

[Deeeez Knicks]

Does anyone know what our exact cap space number is?

Melo...........$22,875,000.00
Calderon......$7,402,812.00
Cap Hold......$525,093
Cap Hold...... $525,093
Cole............$947,276.00
Hardaway......$1,304,520.00
Early............$845,059.00
Acy..............$1,181,348.00
Prigs (buyout)...$440,000.00
2015 Pick (#3 pick)..$3,689,700.00
Cap Hold..........$525,093
Cap Hold..........$525,093
Cap Hold.......$525,093

Total: ............$40,786,087.00
Projected cap: ...$66,500,000.00
Projected Space: ..$25,713,913.00

Not sure if Prigs buy counts as a roster hold but i included an extra one

[PMFJB]

Does anyone know what our exact cap space number is?

Melo...........$22,875,000.00
Calderon......$7,402,812.00
Cap Hold......$525,093
Cap Hold...... $525,093
Cole............$947,276.00
Hardaway......$1,304,520.00
Early............$845,059.00
Acy..............$1,181,348.00
Prigs (buyout)...$440,000.00
2015 Pick (#3 pick)..$3,689,700.00
Cap Hold..........$525,093
Cap Hold..........$525,093
Cap Hold.......$525,093

Total: ............$40,786,087.00
Projected cap: ...$66,500,000.00
Projected Space: ..$25,713,913.00

Not sure if Prigs buy counts as a roster hold but i included an extra one

Thank you. But can't we sign our pick AFTER we sign our free agents thus giving us and extra 3.7 million?

[Deeeez Knicks]

That is correct. If the Knicks were rebuilding (and there's real valid arguments for them to do so) the first thing would be to trade Carmelo Anthony. But it's pretty clear whether it's by Jackson or Dolan that they are building around him.

But that could not be done if we didn't resign Melo. And we don't have our pick next year. We are already tanking this season. There is really no risk in waiting a year to see how this pans out. We can always trade Melo in a year. But if we trade Melo now there's no going back from that.

incorrect. we could have done a sign and trade with the Bulls.

we would have received pennies on the dollar in a sign and trade

[K_ick_God]

Knicks GIVE UP a 2nd round pick -- another good asset wasted!

Knicks GET a 2nd round pick -- Knicks got nothing, just used Shump to dump JR!

Someone explain that. Actually don't. I don't really care about 2nd round picks very much. Except that they may be better than picks 25-30 or thereabouts.

[Rasho Brezec]

Kosmovitelli dropping the knowledge like usual.

[ORANGEandBLUE]

JR Smith and Iman Shumpert (and Dalembert) for unguaranteed contracts and a future second round pick ?


I can certainly understand the willingness (or need) to trade unwanted players who don’t fit the style of play Phil Jackson and Derek Fisher want to execute but you need to get some kind of value back. Basically, the price to pay in order to unload JR Smith was Iman Shumpert. As he’s an expiring rookie contract and Knicks needed to tender a qualifying offer to retain him and Phil Jackson probably didn’t want to keep him, I guess that’s the reason Iman Shumpert was jettisoned. Despite his poor play and his injury I still think he probably had more value than that and Phil could have waited for the trade deadline. He cleared more cap room but there’s no guarantee Knicks will even need all that cap room. After only 9 months at the helm, Phil made lots of moves (Felton/Chandler for Calderon, Ellington and Larkin, hired Derek Fisher, re-signed Melo, Ellington and Tyler for Outlaw and Acy Law, JR/Iman for unguaranteed contracts and a second round pick). He revamped the roster and tried to find some balance in the off-season and he failed so far. He added salaries past 2015 with Calderon ($7 million per year) and now he cleared JR Smith contract ($6 million) so he barely broke even.

What Phil’s doing would make sense if we didn’t have Melo , we were rebuilding and we still had the control of our 2016 first round pick. Right now, he cleared approx $30 million in cap room but he has no team, only Melo as a (short term) building block and a potential top 5 lottery pick. Even with $30 million, I doubt you can rebuild a team in one off-season with Melo aging and his injuries. People are making comparisons with 2010 but it’s an entirely different proposition. In 2010, the plan was quite clear : two max slots for two max players (and a 3rd star or a couple of really good role players in 2011). You had several franchise players available in 2010 and if you got Lebron and Wade or Lebron and Bosh, you were almost set. With Lebron, Wade and Bosh, the Heat could fill the rest of the roster with minimum salary players and rookies. As we all know, Melo’s not Lebron and you don’t have a player like Wade or a great complementary player like Bosh who could adapt his game. Another big difference is those guys were young and hungry for a championship and were willing to make sacrifices to make it work. it wasn't just a quick fix to win a championship, it was a plan to win multiple rings. The Heat only won two championships but they made 4 consecutive NBA Finals appearances. In NY, at this point, this situation is just a mess so even if you add Marc Gasol and a good $10 million player to that group of players, that’s not enough to push us over the top. We would barely make the playoffs. Nothing more. Even with the salary cap going up significantly in 2016 (with the newt TV deal), I doubt we will have enough resources and time to make it work. not to mention, there's a looming lockout in 2017 and owners will likely try to lower the salary cap and salaries (change the formula for the salary cap).

Overall, It’s a situation that has the potential to be just a repeat of 2010-2011 (Gasol and whoever PJax can sign would just replace Tyson Chandler and Amare) and it will produce the same results (a team good enough to make it to the second round but nothing more). At this point, even if we don’t have a first round pick in 2016, I’d rather see Phil Jackson end the Melo experiment (trade him for the right package if he can) and rebuild from scratch. Knicks should use their cap room to acquire young players, draft picks and assets and rebuild slowly instead of trying to win now with aging players like Melo and possibly Marc Gasol. Once again, I fear the Knicks may make the same mistake (we maxed out Melo so we better try to win now at all costs, even if it means overpaying and being capped out for the foreseeable future). I think the window to build a team around Melo is closing, we don’t have enough time. I think Knicks should acknowledge the ship has sailed for Melo and it’s time to start over. Same thing for Kevin Durant in 2016. Not enough to build a team attractive enough to lure him, I mean a team where he could be the missing ingredient to push us over the top. That’s what the Knicks should do : build a team slowly with the right pieces and then look for the franchise player who will make us a championship contender. And not the other way around. 2010 was just a one-time opportunity with several franchise players available, including the best player in the NBA (Lebron). 2010 shouldn't be used as a model to rebuild a team via free agency.

Back to the topic at hand, I don’t think it’s a good trade but I understand Phil Jackson’s intention (JR Smith probably wasn’t a player worth keeping for chemistry reasons and Iman Shumpert’s rookie contract will expire at the end of the season so he had to be traded if Phil had no intention to re-sign him next summer), this trade should have netted us more assets but I’m more concerned by the direction of the team (and Phil’s obsession with the triangle) than this particular trade. I guess we’ll see next summer what Phil Jackson really wants to do with this team.

Dolan probably insisted that we keep Melo; so Phil's options were either pursue an absolute win-now strategy or do the half-and-half approach he is doing now. So by criticizing his strategy for not being pure enough in either direction, your essentially criticizing him for not taking the Dolan win-now-at-all costs philosophy.

[Deeeez Knicks]

Does anyone know what our exact cap space number is?

Melo...........$22,875,000.00
Calderon......$7,402,812.00
Cap Hold......$525,093
Cap Hold...... $525,093
Cole............$947,276.00
Hardaway......$1,304,520.00
Early............$845,059.00
Acy..............$1,181,348.00
Prigs (buyout)...$440,000.00
2015 Pick (#3 pick)..$3,689,700.00
Cap Hold..........$525,093
Cap Hold..........$525,093
Cap Hold.......$525,093

Total: ............$40,786,087.00
Projected cap: ...$66,500,000.00
Projected Space: ..$25,713,913.00

Not sure if Prigs buy counts as a roster hold but i included an extra one

Thank you. But can't we sign our pick AFTER we sign our free agents thus giving us and extra 3.7 million?

It still counts against the cap even if we wait to sign them

[KNIXFAN_83]

In all honesty rebuilding the right way would have been trading Melo for a bunch of picks/young players and having 2-3 lotto years while preserving long term cap space. Most likely you draft 1 star, acquire star 2 in a trade, and then star 3 via free agency. Rebuilding around a 31 year old with limited assets isn't exactly the "right way".

Landing the first pick in the draft and a potential franchise player changes the outlook of everything. Because the goal then becomes developing the young player than winning a championship with Melo.

That is correct. If the Knicks were rebuilding (and there's real valid arguments for them to do so) the first thing would be to trade Carmelo Anthony. But it's pretty clear whether it's by Jackson or Dolan that they are building around him.

And the only reason I'm ok with this is because we still owe compensation for him. Having said that I'm very curious as to what the Bulls offer would have been in a S/T. Mirtoic + Butler + 1-2 1st rd picks? I'd be pretty pumped having Mirtic, Butler, and a top 5 pick along with a ton of cap space this summer.

Haven't we learned nothing from 2010. Your not going to attract stars if you don't have one. Trading Melo after gutting the team is ridiculous. We need Melo and always did. We just never put him in a winning situation because we are constantly robbing Peter to pay Paul. Now we are potentially looking at a 1st overall pick. Phil Jackson as a recruiter in NY. Melo shutting it down and resting for next year. 30+ million in cap space for one of the biggest free agent classes. We weren't going to win this year anyway. This is a smart move and move that this organization has avoided for years. I can't see a player some what intrigued to potentially play in NY with Phil, Melo, 1st overall pick, and 30 million in money to build a team in a weak eastern conference. That's pretty good plan honestly.

[moocow007]

Knicks GIVE UP a 2nd round pick -- another good asset wasted!

Knicks GET a 2nd round pick -- Knicks got nothing, just used Shump to dump JR!

Someone explain that. Actually don't. I don't really care about 2nd round picks very much. Except that they may be better than picks 25-30 or thereabouts.

Don't know. I didn't think giving up the 2nd round pick OR getting a 2nd round pick was a big deal.