2020 Presidential Election Thread: IT'S THE FINAL (vote) COUNTDOWN! [update pg 61: Joe Biden elected 46th POTUS]

[Clyde_Style]

One thing to keep in mind about Trump when he walks out of the WH

Imagine you've lent Trump tens or hundreds of millions and you have to compete with other creditors to seize assets from Trump as he defaults on his loans. Do you really want to wait and be at the back of the line?

Deutsche Bank made it clear they're seeking payments and, since they won't get them unless a magical financial windfall appears miraculously, they basically announced their intention to move on Trump.

So my assumption is the race will be on to foreclose on Trump as soon as possible. He will be walking into a buzzsaw when he leaves the WH on both the criminal prosecution front and on the debt front.

I seriously doubt he'll even have a chance to launch his media ventures with the lawsuits waiting for him on day one.

[spree2kawhi]

Did they really announce it in that parking lot?

Yes they did. Though making people buy 1 dollar in tokens every time they go into the jack shack is messed up

That parking lot story still boggles my mind. After four years of watching Jared Kushner fukup everything he touches I thought nothing could surprise me about this clusterfuk of sub-humans in the White House, but they always manage to top themselves. Such a fitting coda to the most incompetent administration ever assembled.

I genuinely believe someone in the campaign did this on purpose, thus pointing the middle finger directly at Trump and Giuliani.

[SA37]

Undocumented immigrants probably pay around 12 billion in taxes a year while only getting back around 4 billion in benefits. I agree with you that it’s not a lot, but all in all they’re a net positive even if you factor in the money that’s sent overseas.

https://bipartisanpolicy.org/blog/how-do-undocumented-immigrants-pay-federal-taxes-an-explainer/

Oh and my mistake I forget to connect this back to healthcare in my last post. So there’s a very good reason to provide undocumented immigrants with basic healthcare because it’s probably cheaper in the long run than having them go to the emergency. Most of the people that favor M4A would probably agree with some form of coverage for undocumented immigrants and it makes economic sense, but it’s such a topic that requires education and nuance that I don’t know how to make it palatable politically.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/11/politics/undocumented-immigrants-health-care-democrats/index.htmlm

And here’s an article that talks a bit about the German healthcare system. I found a better one before I’ll see if I can find it again. Ironically enough it’s similar to the public option.

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/germany-s-health-care-system-model-u-s-n1024491

The problem is that undocumented immigrants are a "net positive" in terms of their tax contribution because they are not eligible to claim many benefits; any legalization of their situation (or eventual naturalization) would force the US to give them benefits (for similar reasons to the "give M4A even to illegals" argument, not to mention they'd be able to prove they'd paid into the system). Given the number of undocumented immigrants who work in low-pay, low skill jobs, you'd end up having a lot of people suddenly eligibile for a lot of benefits now and in their retirement. (Yes, there is a chance their kids and grandkids would compensate for that.) The money they send out is massive -- around $50 billion per year, I believe. That is a lot of money not going to local businesses and communities. (Some of that ends up coming back to the US because some of that money is spent on US products, but that only helps a handful of massive companies that probably end up paying less or no tax on that revenue than they would if they made that money in the US.)

The problem with any healthcare system -- private or public -- is you end up with healthy people paying for care they don't need -- and may never need -- and sick people getting their treatment massively subsidized -- in the case of the chronically ill, sometimes for decades. Regardless of the system, preventative measures are always going to be less expensive than the cure; if you deny or limit people's coverage and/or make co-pays/deductibles extremely expensive, you're going to get lots of people who don't go to the doctor and get routine check ups and you'll end up with more expenses if/when something serious appears. You're absolutely right when you say that making M4A palatable politically is difficult, especially in a country that vilifies the collective; however, I think you can make it politically palatable by focusing on the benefits everyone would receive; only extremely rich people would stand to lose from a M4A type system.

I'm going to do some more research on the German system, but there is no question that the systems in Germany/France/UK/Spain/Canada would all be an improvement over what the US has now. However, economically it would be difficult for the US to move to this type of system. Healthcare accounts for 16-18% of GDP in the US and you'd have massive job cuts in the insurance and pharmaceutical industries, as well as in hospitals with any major reduction in revenue. Coupled with the US's massive debt, it makes finding a solution complicated.

[BKlutch]

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I'll allow it

Cocaine - while still a helluva drug - isn't the hip drug it used to be. Who wants to feel all jittery, sweaty, anxious, and paranoid?

Didn't all of America just feel that until the election was called?

[movingon]

I'm going to do some more research on the German system, but there is no question that the systems in Germany/France/UK/Spain/Canada would all be an improvement over what the US has now. However, economically it would be difficult for the US to move to this type of system. Healthcare accounts for 16-18% of GDP in the US and you'd have massive job cuts in the insurance and pharmaceutical industries, as well as in hospitals with any major reduction in revenue. Coupled with the US's massive debt, it makes finding a solution complicated.

Part of the inflated cost of the US healthcare system has to do with its complexity and resulting inefficiency.
If we switched to a more reasonable system, the cost should decrease a bit.
There's no denying healthcare is expensive though.
One thing that the countries you listed have in common (and essentially all other countries have in common) is that they spend far less on their military than the US.
The US can afford to give everyone basic healthcare, it's just a question of priorities.

[Pointgod]

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[Im Coming Home]

They’re starting in with this shyt again. This is an old Republican play. It’s not even original.

So much for bringing us together. That didn’t last long.

They're **** gaslighting the democrats and they're STILL falling for it, like what the actual ****

Kasich speaks for nobody. Where do you get that bidens being gaslighted before he's even done anything?

He ran against medicare for all, there's reports of him putting a bunch of Republicans in his cabinet, etc. It's not a guarantee but all signs are pointing that way is all.

[BKlutch]

Posted this in ca and its like 50/50 on whether or not cenk is right. Am I missing something?

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He just won the most civil warry election since, um, the civil war, so let him say nice things about the other side while tempers are still hot. Last thing we need are loonie toon militias out for vengeance patrols. What they do in D.C. is not the same thing as what he needs to say now to simmer this down. I swear to god, too many leftists are so damn literal-minded. He has more experience at this than anyone so let him do some politicking.

Despite what Cenk thinks, Biden is not an idiot. He didn't just go through hell to win this election against a powerful con artist, just to plan on squandering his victory. I feel strongly that until Jauary 20, there are going to be a lot of angry people and one hell of a dangerous madman in the Oval Office. What joe Biden said is the only right thing he could have said.

He will never plan to squander his administration over Republicans. But I can imagine if he calculates he can't get all of what he wants on a piece of legislation, he may settle for the part he can get done. Does anybody think the Senate will vote for Medicare for All? Maybe he can get a public option. And then, when people love it, go for more next time.

In the past, there was horse trading. A few Republicans join the Dems to vote for something Joe wants, and in exchange a few Dems support something the Repubs want (nothing too horrible, of course). This used to be common.

If Biden can't change the way things are done, then our system of government is finished and we'll need a system like in other countries where the party in power controls it all until the next vote.

I'd love to see the electoral college abolished and elections by popular vote. I'd also like to see more proportional representation in the Senate. I can't imagine that happening.

[BKlutch]

They’re already positioning themselves

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Who cares what John Kasich has to say?

He just addressed climate change, Biden's not about to tell progressives to beat it Kasich can kick rocks.

Kasich has a lock on Secretary to the Undersecretary of Agriculture.

Spoiler:

But Biden told him to wait for his second term.

[stuporman]

I like this idea. Anyone have a line to the Biden Whitehouse? (That feels so good to say after all these years)

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PG, Biden's going to fill cabinet and staff with Republicans. And I'm not really happy about it. Are we really going to play Charlie Brown, again? If Biden/Harris proposes an austerity budget, Wingo is going to get upset.

I have very little faith that Biden will use the bully pulpit of the office to push through the type of legislation the people need or use that position to call out the Reps in the senate blocking it. Dems are terrible at political negotiations in part because most of them are corporate bought and don't really want to get any substantive policy done anyway but mostly because they are weak willed politicians.

[BKlutch]

Well, you mocked me for my religious practice of inhaling mother nature.

I said weed can make anyone a veggie if you do too much of it. I don't see it as benign if abused
I said that in addition to legalizing weed there should still be laws on the books that prohibit driving high, just like alcohol
You were wound up and took it personally, but those were and still are my beliefs
But I'm a libertarian when it comes to substances. Do as thy will my friend

I just want full decriminalization. And stores. And for NYC to have Amsterdam style coffee shops. That’s all I ask

Weed is a drug that can safely be used similarly to how people can safely use alcohol. It can also be abused equally easily - people who need to be high every day of their lives, all day, are going to be screwed. I don't believe legalization will increase the number of people who abuse drugs, but it will take the stigma away from people who are arrested for smoking.

A friend who buys his weed from the local dispensary in Massachusetts says it's the best he's ever had and the price is reasonable. He's a responsible guy and enjoys himself without abusing. He also doesn't abuse alcohol, or anything else. So legal weed has been only a net positive for him, and many other people.

I believe one of the biggest roadblocks to wider legalization has been the lack of widespread availability of a test to see how high somebody is, like the way there is a breathalyzer for alcohol. This makes some in law enforcement worry they can't control it.

Oh well, once they figure this out, they can go on to criminalizing other activities, like sex.

[stuporman]

As far as anybody working in the Biden administration, it doesn't matter what their voter registration form says. They still take orders directly from and act on behalf of the president. A Republican working for a Democrat is nothing new. It doesn't mean they can do what they want. They can't. They still have do do what they are told

You want to judge Biden, judge HIS ACTIONS, HIS POLICIES, not who his foot soldiers are. That's where the pudding is at

But what's the advantage of bringing on players from the other team that don't agree with our playbook? We have our own players who are already on board and capable. When do Republicans EVER return the favor? I'll tell you. It's NEVER. They never do it.

Remember when Obama tried to "unite the country." How'd that go? As I recall, not too well for Obama. They pretty much spit in his face. All of them. I think we have more work to do before we extend a hand to them. In fact, I don't see why we should do it at all. Make them come to us. In the meantime, we should just go about our business and doing our thing.

They’re already positioning themselves

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Every incumbent that supports medicare for all won their race but it's them who almost cost the centists? They wouldn't have won anything if it wasn't for progressives but punching left is all these republican-lite people can do.

[stuporman]

Well, you mocked me for my religious practice of inhaling mother nature.

I said weed can make anyone a veggie if you do too much of it. I don't see it as benign if abused
I said that in addition to legalizing weed there should still be laws on the books that prohibit driving high, just like alcohol
You were wound up and took it personally, but those were and still are my beliefs
But I'm a libertarian when it comes to substances. Do as thy will my friend

I just want full decriminalization. And stores. And for NYC to have Amsterdam style coffee shops. That’s all I ask

It's so strange AZ did it before NY....

[BKlutch]

Oh wow. That's deep.

I remember dropping acid in college one day and when I finally got back to my apartment, the poster of Neil Young played a concert for me.

lol, I spent like two hours on one trip watching a cement walkway behind my dorm flow like the Mississippi. Another time I took too much, mistook the snow plows clearing the parking lot to my friends' apartment building for an alien invasion, stripped butt naked and hid under their bed.

Drugs are fun.

Well, you know the old saying: When the aliens land, get naked

"Oh, come on, man!" ® Don't say that. It just makes it easier for them to do their anal probes (which we all know is the ONLY reason they ever come here to visit).

[Fat Kat]

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[Im Coming Home]

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Just keep **** golfing jackass.

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[stuporman]

Republicans spouting lies about the election, refusing to admit anything about the lack of evidence, still fighting any sane pandemic measures and wanting no part of any democratic lead legislation on these Sunday shows is the perfect illustration why the dems need to go around them to accomplish what they need, not compromise with people who operate in bad faith all of the time.

[DOT]

Trump supporters have been saying for years f*ck your feelings, cry more, you lost get over it, calling Dems "snowflakes" etc

Now that they lost, they're all in their feelings about being given that sh*t right back at them

If you talk sh*t, you best make sure you can back it up. Cause if you can't, you're gonna get made fun of right back. If you can't handle that, then keep your mouth shut. Goes for everyone, this is a basketball forum.

[GONYK]

Food for thought...

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Maybe things aren't as simple as they seem?

[DOT]

Food for thought...

Spoiler:

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Maybe things aren't as simple as they seem?

I think a lot of it comes down to messaging

When you take progressive concepts by themselves and don't give context to them, the country loves them. Universal healthcare has like a 70% approval rating when people aren't given a name, just the policy. Same reason why 15 an hour won overwhelmingly in Florida but Biden lost handily

A lot of the country don't see themselves as being "progressive," so when you say "this is a progressive position," their opinion of it changes. And the Republicans have done an amazing job over the years of convincing people that progressivism is terrible. So what the Dems (more specifically, progressives) need to do is find a way to break the people out of this mindset, which isn't an easy thing. The moderates are scared to endorse more progressive ideology because they're afraid they'll lose voters, but if we could normalize the ideas, it wouldn't lose them voters because people would no longer see them as "progressive" positions, but mainstream ones. Still left-leaning, but not as far left as they're portrayed now.