2020-2021 College/Draft Thread 2

[NoDopeOnSundays]

5 attempts per game at nearly 45% doesn’t seem fake to me. Especially since he does take a decent amount of off the dribbles threes. Also you gotta remember colleges games are shorter too. That’s really high volume in those amount of minutes.

Freethrow percentage is a better indicator of potential shooting at the next level, he's at 63% from the line. Fultz and Lonzo shot threes at a high volume and good percentage in college, both were better freethrow shooters than Mitchell and both have needed to completely rebuild their shots in the NBA.

Jaylen Brown was a poor free throw shooter but is a pretty good 3 point shooter.
Nick Anderson, Bruce Bowen are other examples. If you are a poor free throw shooter but can hit 3's at good volume, it's pretty likely that the issues at the line are mental, instead of having bad mechanics.

Are you really willing to risk bringing in yet another player who may not be able to shoot? Jaylen Brown was 20, Mitchell will be 23 before the start of next season. It's too big of a risk in my opinion, and we've seen it to an extent with Obi, which is 40% from there and 70% from the line in college, he can't shoot the NBA three with any consistency right now.

[NewKnicks]

As good as the guard play is in this game, there is no doubt the best player is Suggs and he's just a freshman

Suggs is going to be special. I know that's not groundbreaking analysis, but he's got all the skill, athleticism, and mental makeup to be great. You can tell the kid only wants to win as well. He was crying bigtime after that game.

At this point I'm taking Suggs over Cade. Not that Cade won't be great, I think he will, but Suggs is my #1. If you listen to his interviews, he seems like a really bright kid as well. And I doubt there will be any drama following him either. Seems like a great kid.

For me:

1. Suggs
2. Cade
3. Mobley
4. Green
5. Kominga
6. Scottie Barnes

Mobley has a chance to be really special in the league as well, but it's going to take him 5 years to build that body up to compete against strong, athletic bigs in the NBA.

Green has it all as well. He has a good chance to be that prototypical star NBA two guard.

Even though Kispert could have played better in this game, I still think he's going to be a Duncan Robinson type player. He's got surprisingly good hops, plays solid D, and seems like he also really wants to win. In today's NBA, Kispert type players are invaluable with the ability to shoot the lights out of the gym. He might make it into the top 10 before it's all said and done. Wouldn't surprise me at all.

I really think this draft is going to live up to the hype. We haven't seen this many potential NBA stars in a draft in a long time.

[jvsimonetti0514]

As good as the guard play is in this game, there is no doubt the best player is Suggs and he's just a freshman

Suggs is going to be special. I know that's not groundbreaking analysis, but he's got all the skill, athleticism, and mental makeup to be great. You can tell the kid only wants to win as well. He was crying bigtime after that game.

At this point I'm taking Suggs over Cade. Not that Cade won't be great, I think he will, but Suggs is my #1. If you listen to his interviews, he seems like a really bright kid as well. And I doubt there will be any drama following him either. Seems like a great kid.

For me:

1. Suggs
2. Cade
3. Mobley
4. Green
5. Kominga
6. Scottie Barnes

Even though Kispert could have played better in this game, I still think he's going to be a Duncan Robinson type player. He's got surprisingly good hops, plays solid D, and seems like he also really wants to win. In today's NBA, Kispert type players are invaluable with the ability to shoot the lights out of the gym. He might make it into the top 10 before it's all said and done. Wouldn't surprise me at all.

What do you see in Scottie Barnes? I don't really get his appeal TBH cuz he's a complete 0 when it comes to scoring the ball.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

5 attempts per game at nearly 45% doesn’t seem fake to me. Especially since he does take a decent amount of off the dribbles threes. Also you gotta remember colleges games are shorter too. That’s really high volume in those amount of minutes.

Freethrow percentage is a better indicator of potential shooting at the next level, he's at 63% from the line. Fultz and Lonzo shot threes at a high volume and good percentage in college, both were better freethrow shooters than Mitchell and both have needed to completely rebuild their shots in the NBA.

According to basketball reference, Mitchell is 65% from the line this year. Even his career average is 66%, So where did you get that 63 number from? I don't think using Fultz and Lonzo are good examples of what you're trying to prove TBH. Just cuz Fultz messed up his shoulder though and Lonzo's had a super busted form. Everyone knew Lonzo was going to have to change that to have any success. Not to mention Lonzo shot 56% from the line last year, while shooting 37.5% from three. I don't think Mitchell's form is busted and I certainly hope he doesn't end up with some freak shoulder injury that almost pushes him out of the league either.

I can find just as many counter examples of people that didn't shoot well from the free throw line, that ended up decent three point shooters. Our boy RJ, is the first example that comes to mind. He's back up to 36% now from three and he's pretty subpar from the line. Vassell and LaMelo are good examples of this from last years draft. Neither of them were particularly strong free throw shooters and are good shooters in the NBA. PJ Washington wasn't a great free throw shooter either and his jumper has translated just fine as well.

If you're going to split hairs over 63% and 65% you should also get it right too he's shooting 64.1% from the line this season, not sure how you could round up. But my number came from what he was shooting pre-championship game. He has never shot higher than 67.7% from the line. I want you to look at all the work Fultz has put in, all the progression he's made in the NBA, how much time must have been spent to get him to where he is now, then I want you to understand that he's only 4 months older than Mitchell.


You can't find just as many counter examples, especially not ones that are 23 years old which is what Mitchell will be when the season starts. You're using a bunch of younger players as your basis, ignoring the age difference. RJ was 18 as a freshman, and 19 as a rookie, LaMelo is 19, Vassell was 19-20 in College. Find me examples of 23 year old players who couldn't make freethrows, that developed into consistent shooters in the NBA. We have shooting and spacing issues, I don't see the appeal of drafting someone who may not be able to shoot at the next level, because freethrow shooting is a very good indicator, especially when we have 3 years of him playing in college and this year is actually his worst year from the line. It's not worth the risk.

[3toheadmelo]

Freethrow percentage is a better indicator of potential shooting at the next level, he's at 63% from the line. Fultz and Lonzo shot threes at a high volume and good percentage in college, both were better freethrow shooters than Mitchell and both have needed to completely rebuild their shots in the NBA.

Jaylen Brown was a poor free throw shooter but is a pretty good 3 point shooter.
Nick Anderson, Bruce Bowen are other examples. If you are a poor free throw shooter but can hit 3's at good volume, it's pretty likely that the issues at the line are mental, instead of having bad mechanics.

Are you really willing to risk bringing in yet another player who may not be able to shoot? Jaylen Brown was 20, Mitchell will be 23 before the start of next season. It's too big of a risk in my opinion, and we've seen it to an extent with Obi, which is 40% from there and 70% from the line in college, he can't shoot the NBA three with any consistency right now.

Bruce Bowen entered the league at 25 years old. Nick Anderson entered the league at 22 years old.

I don't really see it as some big risk. Theres a lot of players who had poor free throw shooting but could hit 3's at good volume. As long as the mechanics are good then there really isn't a problem. It's more mental. Mitchell's shot looks good to me.

I've said this before about Obi that he needs to have a higher release on his jumper. He is trying to compensate his low release with a lot of arc which is why a lot of his shots are strong or falling short.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

Jaylen Brown was a poor free throw shooter but is a pretty good 3 point shooter.
Nick Anderson, Bruce Bowen are other examples. If you are a poor free throw shooter but can hit 3's at good volume, it's pretty likely that the issues at the line are mental, instead of having bad mechanics.

Are you really willing to risk bringing in yet another player who may not be able to shoot? Jaylen Brown was 20, Mitchell will be 23 before the start of next season. It's too big of a risk in my opinion, and we've seen it to an extent with Obi, which is 40% from there and 70% from the line in college, he can't shoot the NBA three with any consistency right now.

Bruce Bowen entered the league at 25 years old. Nick Anderson entered the league at 22 years old.

I don't really see it as some big risk. Theres a lot of players who had poor free throw shooting but could hit 3's at good volume. As long as the mechanics are good then there really isn't a problem. It's more mental. Mitchell's shot looks good to me.

I've said this before about Obi that he needs to have a higher release on his jumper. He is trying to compensate his low release with a lot of arc which is why a lot of his shots are strong or falling short.

There are more failures than success stories when it comes to this. I don't think about things in best case scenarios, so I'll ask, what if it turns out his shot isn't real and we drafted a guard that needs to be on the ball, and is also a poor freethrow shooter, then what?

That is the risk of drafting someone like this, he's not some 19 year old that you can wait on to develop, he's a guy that needs to be as good as everyone hopes right away.

[knickstape4ever]

I'm good taking Mitchell despite his age b/c I like his skillset better than other players in his draft range

but based on the draft history of 22 y/o top-20 picks, it's unlikely he becomes a star

[3toheadmelo]

Are you really willing to risk bringing in yet another player who may not be able to shoot? Jaylen Brown was 20, Mitchell will be 23 before the start of next season. It's too big of a risk in my opinion, and we've seen it to an extent with Obi, which is 40% from there and 70% from the line in college, he can't shoot the NBA three with any consistency right now.

Bruce Bowen entered the league at 25 years old. Nick Anderson entered the league at 22 years old.

I don't really see it as some big risk. Theres a lot of players who had poor free throw shooting but could hit 3's at good volume. As long as the mechanics are good then there really isn't a problem. It's more mental. Mitchell's shot looks good to me.

I've said this before about Obi that he needs to have a higher release on his jumper. He is trying to compensate his low release with a lot of arc which is why a lot of his shots are strong or falling short.

There are more failures than success stories when it comes to this. I don't think about things in best case scenarios, so I'll ask, what if it turns out his shot isn't real and we drafted a guard that needs to be on the ball, and is also a poor freethrow shooter, then what?

That is the risk of drafting someone like this, he's not some 19 year old that you can wait on to develop, he's a guy that needs to be as good as everyone hopes right away.

Is there anything wrong with his mechanics? No. Like I said it's more of a mental thing with him at the line. So I don't think the risk is as big as you think. If anything it seems pretty minimal to me.

Who are you suggesting we draft in this range if not Davion? Personally I am looking at Bouknight (if he drops), Davion, Ayo Dosunmo, Tre Mann, Jared Butler, Giddy, Ziarie Williams and Charles Bassey if the Knicks want to move on from Mitch. Any of those with both of our picks is fine with me

[3toheadmelo]

Look at the jumpers he's hitting off the dribble from deep. He would have to change his whole form completely for that not to translate.

Watch on YouTube

;t=41s

[jvsimonetti0514]

Freethrow percentage is a better indicator of potential shooting at the next level, he's at 63% from the line. Fultz and Lonzo shot threes at a high volume and good percentage in college, both were better freethrow shooters than Mitchell and both have needed to completely rebuild their shots in the NBA.

According to basketball reference, Mitchell is 65% from the line this year. Even his career average is 66%, So where did you get that 63 number from? I don't think using Fultz and Lonzo are good examples of what you're trying to prove TBH. Just cuz Fultz messed up his shoulder though and Lonzo's had a super busted form. Everyone knew Lonzo was going to have to change that to have any success. Not to mention Lonzo shot 56% from the line last year, while shooting 37.5% from three. I don't think Mitchell's form is busted and I certainly hope he doesn't end up with some freak shoulder injury that almost pushes him out of the league either.

I can find just as many counter examples of people that didn't shoot well from the free throw line, that ended up decent three point shooters. Our boy RJ, is the first example that comes to mind. He's back up to 36% now from three and he's pretty subpar from the line. Vassell and LaMelo are good examples of this from last years draft. Neither of them were particularly strong free throw shooters and are good shooters in the NBA. PJ Washington wasn't a great free throw shooter either and his jumper has translated just fine as well.

If you're going to split hairs over 63% and 65% you should also get it right too he's shooting 64.1% from the line this season, not sure how you could round up. But my number came from what he was shooting pre-championship game. He has never shot higher than 67.7% from the line. I want you to look at all the work Fultz has put in, all the progression he's made in the NBA, how much time must have been spent to get him to where he is now, then I want you to understand that he's only 4 months older than Mitchell.


You can't find just as many counter examples, especially not ones that are 23 years old which is what Mitchell will be when the season starts. You're using a bunch of younger players as your basis, ignoring the age difference. RJ was 18 as a freshman, and 19 as a rookie, LaMelo is 19, Vassell was 19-20 in College. Find me examples of 23 year old players who couldn't make freethrows, that developed into consistent shooters in the NBA. We have shooting and spacing issues, I don't see the appeal of drafting someone who may not be able to shoot at the next level, because freethrow shooting is a very good indicator, especially when we have 3 years of him playing in college and this year is actually his worst year from the line. It's not worth the risk.

You're still not correct on his free throw % though. he's shooting 65.2 from the free throw line. So there's no rounding up involved here. You're just wrong, twice now. I think being correct about numbers is kinda important, when breaking down their games, but what do I know?

I just found a bunch of counter examples and now you want to add another cavate cuz I've disproven your theory. If age was so important to this discussion, why'd you use Fultz and Lonzo as your first examples? They were both 19 when they got drafted. If that's the case, why don't you find me older college players that shot well from three that didn't translate. Cuz right now the burden of proof is on you. Really what's going on here is just another example of classic motte and bailey fallacy.

[NewKnicks]

In regards to who the Knicks should look at, I would consider Ayo Dosunmo. He has the size and length to cause damage in the league at the point. He can shoot and get to the line as well. Also, I don't think it's going to take him too long to compete at the next level. He's got an NBA body already, and will only get bigger.

From a Knicks Perspective, I would consider:

1. Scottie Barnes (if he somehow falls to us)
2. Kispert (same)
3. Ayo
4. Jaden Springer (Tenn)
5. Both Texas bigs. They both play above the rim, and could replace Noel down low. We could land one of them later in the draft.
6. Sharife Cooper. He's small, but very crafty. He could end of being a Jalen Brunson type player.

If we could get two of those 6 players, I'd be thrilled, considering we already f*cked our opportunity to land any of the top 5.

If we continue to fall in the standings, we could potentially get into Barnes/Kispert range. I'd love to land either Kispert or Barnes with our first #1, and Ayo with our second #1. We'd fill two huge holes in our roster immediately with Ayo running the point, and Kispert taking over the 2 spot. Barnes looks to be a SF, but is really versatile and could possibly play some minutes at the 2. How exciting would it be to add that size with Ayo/Barnes.

I would put 100% focus on getting Ayo, though (later in the draft). Even if we needed to trade an asset or two to move up and get him with our second number 1 pick. Most mocks have him as a late first, but I think his stock is going to rise as teams see in person. I went to U of I, so I've followed his progression throughout his college career. Kid puts in the work, and wants to be great.

Plus, the Mavs look like they are going to continue to rise in the standings, which will put our second #1 later in the draft.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

Bruce Bowen entered the league at 25 years old. Nick Anderson entered the league at 22 years old.

I don't really see it as some big risk. Theres a lot of players who had poor free throw shooting but could hit 3's at good volume. As long as the mechanics are good then there really isn't a problem. It's more mental. Mitchell's shot looks good to me.

I've said this before about Obi that he needs to have a higher release on his jumper. He is trying to compensate his low release with a lot of arc which is why a lot of his shots are strong or falling short.

There are more failures than success stories when it comes to this. I don't think about things in best case scenarios, so I'll ask, what if it turns out his shot isn't real and we drafted a guard that needs to be on the ball, and is also a poor freethrow shooter, then what?

That is the risk of drafting someone like this, he's not some 19 year old that you can wait on to develop, he's a guy that needs to be as good as everyone hopes right away.

Is there anything wrong with his mechanics? No. Like I said it's more of a mental thing with him at the line. So I don't think the risk is as big as you think. If anything it seems pretty minimal to me.

Who are you suggesting we draft in this range if not Davion? Personally I am looking at Bouknight (if he drops), Davion, Ayo Dosunmo, Tre Mann, Jared Butler, Giddy, Ziarie Williams and Charles Bassey if the Knicks want to move on from Mitch. Any of those with both of our picks is fine with me

If it's mental how can we be sure that won't bleed down to his jumpshot? It's not like he's been a great shooter his entire college career, he had a great shooting year this season. Could it be real, sure, but what if it's not? That is why I'd be worried about drafting him, if we had a team loaded with shooters I'd think differently.

You already know my suggestion is for us to fall out of this range and end up in the lottery But, if that best case scenario isn't met, I like Bouknight and I think some of his selfish play could be reigned in. He's also more in line with what the Knicks seem to want from their 2 guard, which is shot creation above anything else.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

According to basketball reference, Mitchell is 65% from the line this year. Even his career average is 66%, So where did you get that 63 number from? I don't think using Fultz and Lonzo are good examples of what you're trying to prove TBH. Just cuz Fultz messed up his shoulder though and Lonzo's had a super busted form. Everyone knew Lonzo was going to have to change that to have any success. Not to mention Lonzo shot 56% from the line last year, while shooting 37.5% from three. I don't think Mitchell's form is busted and I certainly hope he doesn't end up with some freak shoulder injury that almost pushes him out of the league either.

I can find just as many counter examples of people that didn't shoot well from the free throw line, that ended up decent three point shooters. Our boy RJ, is the first example that comes to mind. He's back up to 36% now from three and he's pretty subpar from the line. Vassell and LaMelo are good examples of this from last years draft. Neither of them were particularly strong free throw shooters and are good shooters in the NBA. PJ Washington wasn't a great free throw shooter either and his jumper has translated just fine as well.

If you're going to split hairs over 63% and 65% you should also get it right too he's shooting 64.1% from the line this season, not sure how you could round up. But my number came from what he was shooting pre-championship game. He has never shot higher than 67.7% from the line. I want you to look at all the work Fultz has put in, all the progression he's made in the NBA, how much time must have been spent to get him to where he is now, then I want you to understand that he's only 4 months older than Mitchell.


You can't find just as many counter examples, especially not ones that are 23 years old which is what Mitchell will be when the season starts. You're using a bunch of younger players as your basis, ignoring the age difference. RJ was 18 as a freshman, and 19 as a rookie, LaMelo is 19, Vassell was 19-20 in College. Find me examples of 23 year old players who couldn't make freethrows, that developed into consistent shooters in the NBA. We have shooting and spacing issues, I don't see the appeal of drafting someone who may not be able to shoot at the next level, because freethrow shooting is a very good indicator, especially when we have 3 years of him playing in college and this year is actually his worst year from the line. It's not worth the risk.

You're still not correct on his free throw % though. he's shooting 65.2 from the free throw line. So there's no rounding up involved here. You're just wrong, twice now. I think being correct about numbers is kinda important, when breaking down their games, but what do I know?

I just found a bunch of counter examples and now you want to add another cavate cuz I've disproven your theory. If age was so important to this discussion, why'd you use Fultz and Lonzo as your first examples? They were both 19 when they got drafted. If that's the case, why don't you find me older college players that shot well from three that didn't translate. Cuz right now the burden of proof is on you. Really what's going on here is just another example of classic motte and bailey fallacy.

He's at 64.1% on ESPN, I know being right is very important when there's less than a 2% difference and both numbers are equally poor. How about I just say "He's not a good freethrow shooter" or do I need to quantify what "good" is?

This is rich, the first post you responded to me in here was me mentioning Mitchell's age, now you're questioning me about why I would bring up Lonzo and Markelle's ages?

Mitchell's shot may not be real either, he's shooting 63% from the line and hasn't shot over 70% from the line in three years. A 22 year old small guard that can't make freethrows? Scary stuff.

5 attempts per game at nearly 45% doesn’t seem fake to me. Especially since he does take a decent amount of off the dribbles threes. Also you gotta remember colleges games are shorter too. That’s really high volume in those amount of minutes.

Just in case you forgot, which you clearly did. Pointing out Lonzo and Fultz's ages is a pretty obvious next step when my concern about Mitchell and his freethrow shooting at 22 is what led me to post in the first place. You brought up several younger examples, I pointed out their ages, you scream foul Mitchell will be 23 at the start of the season, his freethrow percentage went down every season of his college career, he is older than the players you mentioned at the same stages and I'm not willing to trust his shot being real because of this, anything else?

[NewKnicks]

As good as the guard play is in this game, there is no doubt the best player is Suggs and he's just a freshman

Suggs is going to be special. I know that's not groundbreaking analysis, but he's got all the skill, athleticism, and mental makeup to be great. You can tell the kid only wants to win as well. He was crying bigtime after that game.

At this point I'm taking Suggs over Cade. Not that Cade won't be great, I think he will, but Suggs is my #1. If you listen to his interviews, he seems like a really bright kid as well. And I doubt there will be any drama following him either. Seems like a great kid.

For me:

1. Suggs
2. Cade
3. Mobley
4. Green
5. Kominga
6. Scottie Barnes

Even though Kispert could have played better in this game, I still think he's going to be a Duncan Robinson type player. He's got surprisingly good hops, plays solid D, and seems like he also really wants to win. In today's NBA, Kispert type players are invaluable with the ability to shoot the lights out of the gym. He might make it into the top 10 before it's all said and done. Wouldn't surprise me at all.

What do you see in Scottie Barnes? I don't really get his appeal TBH cuz he's a complete 0 when it comes to scoring the ball.

He already has an NBA body, and is really versatile (he can play point forward in certain situations). He's coming out of a program that produces talent at the next level, and that definitely counts for something. Whatever Leonard Hamilton does down there is working. His players adjust quickly to the NBA game, and are some of the most NBA ready players. He can do it all.. Has the height, incredible wingspan, and athletic ability to compete at the next level. I think his jumpshot is good enough now that with a little coaching could be great (even out to 3 in the NBA) He's 19, and the sky is the limit (in my opinion). He's going to be scary in a few years of good coaching in the NBA.

What can't he do? Serious question if you've seen him play a lot. He's a playmaker with the ball, gets his teammates involved and makes the team better because of it. In my opinion he has one the better all-around games in the whole draft, as I don't see many holes in his game. Plus, his ceiling is limitless at this point.

He's up there at the 6th slot in a lot of mocks (in one of the better drafts in a while) that I see out there, so I'm not the only one who thinks the kid has a bright future.

I would love to get your thoughts breaking down his game, and why you don't think he's been that impressive.

[jvsimonetti0514]

If you're going to split hairs over 63% and 65% you should also get it right too he's shooting 64.1% from the line this season, not sure how you could round up. But my number came from what he was shooting pre-championship game. He has never shot higher than 67.7% from the line. I want you to look at all the work Fultz has put in, all the progression he's made in the NBA, how much time must have been spent to get him to where he is now, then I want you to understand that he's only 4 months older than Mitchell.


You can't find just as many counter examples, especially not ones that are 23 years old which is what Mitchell will be when the season starts. You're using a bunch of younger players as your basis, ignoring the age difference. RJ was 18 as a freshman, and 19 as a rookie, LaMelo is 19, Vassell was 19-20 in College. Find me examples of 23 year old players who couldn't make freethrows, that developed into consistent shooters in the NBA. We have shooting and spacing issues, I don't see the appeal of drafting someone who may not be able to shoot at the next level, because freethrow shooting is a very good indicator, especially when we have 3 years of him playing in college and this year is actually his worst year from the line. It's not worth the risk.

You're still not correct on his free throw % though. he's shooting 65.2 from the free throw line. So there's no rounding up involved here. You're just wrong, twice now. I think being correct about numbers is kinda important, when breaking down their games, but what do I know?

I just found a bunch of counter examples and now you want to add another cavate cuz I've disproven your theory. If age was so important to this discussion, why'd you use Fultz and Lonzo as your first examples? They were both 19 when they got drafted. If that's the case, why don't you find me older college players that shot well from three that didn't translate. Cuz right now the burden of proof is on you. Really what's going on here is just another example of classic motte and bailey fallacy.

He's at 64.1% on ESPN, I know being right is very important when there's less than a 2% difference and both numbers are equally poor. How about I just say "He's not a good freethrow shooter" or do I need to quantify what "good" is?

This is rich, the first post you responded to me in here was me mentioning Mitchell's age, now you're questioning me about why I would bring up Lonzo and Markelle's ages?

Mitchell's shot may not be real either, he's shooting 63% from the line and hasn't shot over 70% from the line in three years. A 22 year old small guard that can't make freethrows? Scary stuff.

5 attempts per game at nearly 45% doesn’t seem fake to me. Especially since he does take a decent amount of off the dribbles threes. Also you gotta remember colleges games are shorter too. That’s really high volume in those amount of minutes.

Just in case you forgot, which you clearly did. Pointing out Lonzo and Fultz's ages is a pretty obvious next step when my concern about Mitchell and his freethrow shooting at 22 is what led me to post in the first place. You brought up several younger examples, I pointed out their ages, you scream foul Mitchell will be 23 at the start of the season, his freethrow percentage went down every season of his college career, he is older than the players you mentioned at the same stages and I'm not willing to trust his shot being real because of this, anything else?

So I'm guessing you don't have any examples of an older college player that's a good shooter and not having it translate then right? Unless you've got a good example of this I fail to see why him being older makes his shooting less likely to translate.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

You're still not correct on his free throw % though. he's shooting 65.2 from the free throw line. So there's no rounding up involved here. You're just wrong, twice now. I think being correct about numbers is kinda important, when breaking down their games, but what do I know?

I just found a bunch of counter examples and now you want to add another cavate cuz I've disproven your theory. If age was so important to this discussion, why'd you use Fultz and Lonzo as your first examples? They were both 19 when they got drafted. If that's the case, why don't you find me older college players that shot well from three that didn't translate. Cuz right now the burden of proof is on you. Really what's going on here is just another example of classic motte and bailey fallacy.

He's at 64.1% on ESPN, I know being right is very important when there's less than a 2% difference and both numbers are equally poor. How about I just say "He's not a good freethrow shooter" or do I need to quantify what "good" is?

This is rich, the first post you responded to me in here was me mentioning Mitchell's age, now you're questioning me about why I would bring up Lonzo and Markelle's ages?

5 attempts per game at nearly 45% doesn’t seem fake to me. Especially since he does take a decent amount of off the dribbles threes. Also you gotta remember colleges games are shorter too. That’s really high volume in those amount of minutes.

Just in case you forgot, which you clearly did. Pointing out Lonzo and Fultz's ages is a pretty obvious next step when my concern about Mitchell and his freethrow shooting at 22 is what led me to post in the first place. You brought up several younger examples, I pointed out their ages, you scream foul Mitchell will be 23 at the start of the season, his freethrow percentage went down every season of his college career, he is older than the players you mentioned at the same stages and I'm not willing to trust his shot being real because of this, anything else?

So I'm guessing you don't have any examples of an older college player that's a good shooter and not having it translate then right? Unless you've got a good example of this I fail to see why him being older makes his shooting less likely to translate.

Come on man, the post I was responding to posted an entire list of older picks not panning out and I added on what concerned me about Mitchell. Go back and re-read what you were responding to.


Obviously there are older ones who panned out, but the list of duds is shockingly large.

[HerSports85]

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[jvsimonetti0514]

Suggs is going to be special. I know that's not groundbreaking analysis, but he's got all the skill, athleticism, and mental makeup to be great. You can tell the kid only wants to win as well. He was crying bigtime after that game.

At this point I'm taking Suggs over Cade. Not that Cade won't be great, I think he will, but Suggs is my #1. If you listen to his interviews, he seems like a really bright kid as well. And I doubt there will be any drama following him either. Seems like a great kid.

For me:

1. Suggs
2. Cade
3. Mobley
4. Green
5. Kominga
6. Scottie Barnes

Even though Kispert could have played better in this game, I still think he's going to be a Duncan Robinson type player. He's got surprisingly good hops, plays solid D, and seems like he also really wants to win. In today's NBA, Kispert type players are invaluable with the ability to shoot the lights out of the gym. He might make it into the top 10 before it's all said and done. Wouldn't surprise me at all.

What do you see in Scottie Barnes? I don't really get his appeal TBH cuz he's a complete 0 when it comes to scoring the ball.

He already has an NBA body, and is really versatile (he can play point forward in certain situations). He's coming out of a program that produces talent at the next level, and that definitely counts for something. Whatever Leonard Hamilton does down there is working. His players adjust quickly to the NBA game, and are some of the most NBA ready players. He can do it all.. Has the height, incredible wingspan, and athletic ability to compete at the next level. I think his jumpshot is good enough now that with a little coaching could be great (even out to 3 in the NBA) He's 19, and the sky is the limit (in my opinion). He's going to be scary in a few years of good coaching in the NBA.

What can't he do? Serious question if you've seen him play a lot. He's a playmaker with the ball, gets his teammates involved and makes the team better because of it. In my opinion he has one the better all-around games in the whole draft, as I don't see many holes in his game. Plus, his ceiling is limitless at this point.

He's up there at the 6th slot in a lot of mocks (in one of the better drafts in a while) that I see out there, so I'm not the only one who thinks the kid has a bright future.

I would love to get your thoughts breaking down his game, and why you don't think he's been that impressive.

Honestly, it's probably because he kinda reminds me of Noah Vonleh. No real disagreements about his measurements cuz he's definitely got an NBA body already but I feel like he's super raw offensively. I don't completely disagree with NoDope about free throw shooting having some correlation with a player improving their 3pt% but he's not good at either. I'm also kinda worry that he's just a 4 and nothing else cuz he's only 6'9" and he's not a shot blocker. Don't get more wrong I think he's got a lot to build on but it's going to take a lot of time cuz he's gonna be a major project.

I haven't seen him a ton but I have notice that he does most of his damage on the break and I'm not really sure what his role would be in the half court. He was pretty ineffective during the tourney for that exact reason.

I think ideally, his ceiling is draymond green but we all know that Draymonds ability to play the 5 was what made him so special. Since Barnes doesn't have that shot blocking, I'm not sure you can get away with him playing as a center. The only way I can see that working defensively is if he's such a good switcher that rim protection doesn't matter as much. Plus on top of all of that you gotta fix the jumper too.

[3toheadmelo]

There are more failures than success stories when it comes to this. I don't think about things in best case scenarios, so I'll ask, what if it turns out his shot isn't real and we drafted a guard that needs to be on the ball, and is also a poor freethrow shooter, then what?

That is the risk of drafting someone like this, he's not some 19 year old that you can wait on to develop, he's a guy that needs to be as good as everyone hopes right away.

Is there anything wrong with his mechanics? No. Like I said it's more of a mental thing with him at the line. So I don't think the risk is as big as you think. If anything it seems pretty minimal to me.

Who are you suggesting we draft in this range if not Davion? Personally I am looking at Bouknight (if he drops), Davion, Ayo Dosunmo, Tre Mann, Jared Butler, Giddy, Ziarie Williams and Charles Bassey if the Knicks want to move on from Mitch. Any of those with both of our picks is fine with me

If it's mental how can we be sure that won't bleed down to his jumpshot? It's not like he's been a great shooter his entire college career, he had a great shooting year this season. Could it be real, sure, but what if it's not? That is why I'd be worried about drafting him, if we had a team loaded with shooters I'd think differently.

You already know my suggestion is for us to fall out of this range and end up in the lottery But, if that best case scenario isn't met, I like Bouknight and I think some of his selfish play could be reigned in. He's also more in line with what the Knicks seem to want from their 2 guard, which is shot creation above anything else.

You can't be sure. There is also tons of players who shot great at the college level and ended up being poor shooters in the pros. So the risk is there with all these players. Personally for me, his poor free throw shooting isn't stopping me from taking him.

Bouknight is my #1 target. I don't know if he'll be available in our range though

[NoDopeOnSundays]

Is there anything wrong with his mechanics? No. Like I said it's more of a mental thing with him at the line. So I don't think the risk is as big as you think. If anything it seems pretty minimal to me.

Who are you suggesting we draft in this range if not Davion? Personally I am looking at Bouknight (if he drops), Davion, Ayo Dosunmo, Tre Mann, Jared Butler, Giddy, Ziarie Williams and Charles Bassey if the Knicks want to move on from Mitch. Any of those with both of our picks is fine with me

If it's mental how can we be sure that won't bleed down to his jumpshot? It's not like he's been a great shooter his entire college career, he had a great shooting year this season. Could it be real, sure, but what if it's not? That is why I'd be worried about drafting him, if we had a team loaded with shooters I'd think differently.

You already know my suggestion is for us to fall out of this range and end up in the lottery But, if that best case scenario isn't met, I like Bouknight and I think some of his selfish play could be reigned in. He's also more in line with what the Knicks seem to want from their 2 guard, which is shot creation above anything else.

You can't be sure. There is also tons of players who shot great at the college level and ended up being poor shooters in the pros. So the risk is there with all these players. Personally for me, his poor free throw shooting isn't stopping me from taking him.

Bouknight is my #1 target. I don't know if he'll be available in our range though

Poor freethrow shooting doesn't worry me too much if it's a really young guy, in this case I'd be careful because of his age and our spacing issues already amplifying the risk.


I like Bouknight, we usually agree on draft prospects overall.