Knicks sign Hardaway

[Tron Carter]

Added an edit saying I'm confused why we just didn't sign Holiday for less money and fewer years, but it is what it is.


We also should have traded Lee before the draft...

I could understand THjr over Holiday because THjr is a professional scorer. I can understand going into the year with KP and WHG as your #1 and #2 options that might be light on offense. So I get that THjr was probably the highest ceiling offensive option out there. But that means you absolutely can't bring back Melo.

Melo, KP, THjr, and WHG is way to many options we really need to let KP take over the offense.

If Holiday had more attempts, I think he'd be able to produce similar results. Different mentality so maybe you're right and that plays a part, but production wise over 30-35 minutes I think Justin could have had a similar impact (with better defense).

I still take this over Waiters, though.

apparently we're in the minority and waiters is a steal

[Crunky]

I'm 50/50 on this move because we need his scoring punch but his defense is horrible, so I don't know. Crabbe got paid similar and they both play the same. If it doesn't work out he could always come off the bench and be our 6moty.

[MaseInYourFace]

Spoiler:

That is the old version of Hardaway Jr

New version of my Hardaway Jr isn't just a spot up shooter. He can shoot off the dribble now, there is video of it.

He also aggressively goes to the rim now, there is a lot of video of that too.

Oh, and his physical gifts? Dude hit the gym HARD last summer and gained definition, basically transformed his body. I am pretty sure even Mike Been commented on it during an MSG broadcast of a Knicks-Hawks game.

He may not be great, but we are not paying him to be great. We are paying him to be good, like Evan Fournier-good.

Please stop thinking we are getting Knicks THJr. He has improved a boatload.

You say he improved, I say it was the system he played in. I dont know what we will be playing next year. Is he the 6 man? Hope it all settles down shortly, still holding out hipe someone knows what they are doing in that franchise besides Gaines.

It's convenient to use system but a couple of guys on that Hawks team regressed. It's pretty obvious Hardaway has improved if you are being fair. I'm still ehh on this deal though. Would have preferred to stay cheap and tank.

[seren]

things could be worst. we could've spent 180 mill this offseason on dion waiters, kelly olynk, and james johnson

We are not far off with Noah, Hardaway, Lee trio. At least those guys you mention play today's game.

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[FixTheKnicks]

I think the main goal with this move and with all future moves would be to emphasize a commitment to winning while developing. All for the sake of KP, who is our franchise player that wants to win.

Assuming this signing happens and Melo is moved for a SF replacement; ex Harkless or Crowder. The team would be competing for a playoff spot if they can address another needs for the bench.

Starting lineup up Frank/THJR/Crowder/KP/WHG is one of the most decent starting 5's we've put forth in years.


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[j4remi]

was waters really more valuable?

from reddit:

Waiters shot 50.7% at the rim last season. Hardaway Jr shot 65.4%. Hardaway shot 8% better on drives with half the TOV%. Hardaway shot 50/48/79 in the clutch to Waiters' 35/37/100.


Name Age Contract BPM RPM PER WS/48
Tim Hardaway Jr 25.3 $71m/4yr -0.3 0.82 15.2 0.107
Dion Waiters 25.5 $52m/4yrs -0.9 0.05 14.5 0.057

If it's pure semantics, the missed games give THJ the edge. But Waiters was the better three point shooter, averaged two more assists per game and half a rebound more per as well. Even if you want to chase per numbers to sell THJ as better, they don't cover the 20 million dollar difference in contracts...and I'll repeat because I'm sure some heads will misread this post...I don't want EITHER guy, but if you're gonna force me to take one. The cheaper guy with more assists and better accuracy from three is my pick all day.

[Tron Carter]

Carmelo Anthony has got to be behind this. Right guys?

nah it's isiah. back to the dark ages

Maybe it wasn't Isiah making decisions but rather Steve Mills all along? How's that for a scary thought. Mills has been around when Thomas was around and actually left the Knicks shortly after Thomas was fired.

[NYKnicksTAPE]

slept on it, and I still don't get why we had to do this deal

I'm hoping that ATL matches, but who knows what Mill's backup plan would be if that happens

[3toheadmelo]

things could be worst. we could've spent 180 mill this offseason on dion waiters, kelly olynk, and james johnson

and derrick rose with another 15 mil added

[moocow007]

Come on Travis...match it...you know you wanna.

[mpharris36]

If Holiday had more attempts, I think he'd be able to produce similar results. Different mentality so maybe you're right and that plays a part, but production wise over 30-35 minutes I think Justin could have had a similar impact (with better defense).

I still take this over Waiters, though.

I like Holiday all around game. Don't get me wrong but holiday is 28 years old. He is what he is.

If we take a look at THjr his career is on the ascension according to a lot. So this was obviously a risk and can ultimately back fire. However THjr does have 18-20 ppg scoring mentality on solid TS%...I don't believe Holiday had that in him. No knock on holiday but he was more of a back door cutter coming off screens guy. THjr can obviously score in a lot more ways.

Like I said I don't mind the foundation move if we commit to it. meaning I want to see a starting lineup of Frank/THjr/Harkless (melo trade)/KP/WHG

that is the starting lineup with not one player over the age of 25...good mix of defense and shooting.

With guys like Baker/Dotson/and a lot of young players getting run off the bench.

If we commit to this, this is a good risk signing in my opinion. If Lee or Melo are here stopping the development of them then this would be a horrible signing.

[BeagleBoss]

I wake up to this bs?!!! Wtf!!!! Why is this franchise so dumb?!!!!

[moocow007]

slept on it, and I still don't get why we had to do this deal

I'm hoping that ATL matches, but who knows what Mill's backup plan would be if that happens

KCP 4 years $80 million would be my guess.

[dakomish23]

Carmelo Anthony has got to be behind this. Right guys?

Isn't everything his fault?

[Deeeez Knicks]

No other way to look at this move except for horrendous

[j4remi]

I don't think we were ever going to be as bad as people hoped next year unless guys miss some games.

Yea we have a similar team... Another 30-33 win season and picking 8-10

If we unload Melo and Lee, we should be able to tank harder imo.

[MaseInYourFace]

I like Hardaway more than Waiters personally. Waiters seems to take up more time with the ball and is a worse finisher. It really makes more sense than ever to dump Melo and run an uptempo offense but let's see...

[NevaGivinKnixUp]

A couple of thoughts:

1. The only free agents I want are either young guys with potential (25 is actually my cut off for this so Hardaway fits) or cheap experienced vets who can serve as mentors and promote a good culture. So this signing fullfills my criteria for the type of player I want.

2. This is a definite overpay... sorta. Please don't compare this to contracts signed last offseason (those were all inflated) or 1 year deals this year. However he is a restricted free agent so that is the only way to get the guy. If we offered him his market value (4 years 50 million) with no trade bonuses or player options, then Atlanta matches easily. I mean just go to their board, it was quite clear that their fans would've wanted a match on anything in the range of 4 year 50 million.

3. While I was super pumped watching Dotson today in summer league and am looking forward to see what kind of player he is. Let's be real here. If Dotson was a first team all-rookie selection we've be jumping for joy. You know who was first team all-rookie? Tim Hardaway Jr! And it's not like it was some fluke rookie season, THJ played his best ball last season.

4. The latest rumored Melo trade would fit in perfectly with this signing. It is a a 3 way with Melo going to Houston, Ryan Anderson going to Portland, and Mo Harkless and Myers Leonard coming to New York. Mo Harkless and Myers Leonard like Hardaway are young guys who are 25 or younger and who have shown some potential. Even if they're never anything more than role players they are solid and have probably not hit hit their peaks (which usually occurs around 27 or 28). It would be nice to have guys who actually improve and have their best years with us rather than have them fall apart under us.

5. If Melo & Lee get traded, I can definitely see Hardaway putting up numbers similar to his 2nd half of the season with the Hawks. Perhaps slightly more scoring on slightly lower shooting percentages. He posted his improved numbers playing with Millsap, Schroder, Dwight Howard, and Kent Bazemore. Without Melo here, I'd say his role will probably be a bit larger (depending on who else signs).

6. As for wasting our cap space. I am done entertaining fantasies of having a ton of cap room and having a bunch of superstars sign here. So many teams have this fantasy every off season and then end up disappointed. We have destroyed any appeal for a veteran superstar to sign here. Not competitive, not up and coming, ruthless media coverage etc. We need to build through the draft and go after young guys who are still proving themselves.

Bottomline, if someone asked me earlier today if we should do this signing, I'd say no. I'd have gone with even cheaper guys and I would have used the cap space to take on salary dumps that are packaged with draft picks or cheap young player (like the Nets getting Russell for taking on Mosgov). However while there is definite potential (and in fact I'd say probable) that THJ's contract will become burdensome, there are also some positives in both THJ's growth as a player and future potential and also in that I don't see this as a departure from the go young and rebuild movement. At least with young guys like THJ there is always hope that they'll develop into something good.

Now, if we trade for 29 year old overpaid Ryan Anderson or trade any 1st round draft packs then I'd be singing a different story.

Thanks for this. Still don't love signing but makes it easier to swallow. Ton of sense here.

[Knicks Byke]

is the board upset because of how we remembered tim? cause it looks like he got better last season. maybe his defense got better?

[moocow007]

To be a little fair to Hardaway Jr, he did have a very strong season last year and BY FAR (not even close) his best year thus far.

14.5 ppg, 2.8 rpg (that's a lot for him), 2.3 apg (see comment about rpg), 45% fg and 36% 3pt. Still defensively challenged but not as bad as when he was with the Knicks (so more simpleton than full (Please Use More Appropriate Word) defensively).