2019-2020 College/Draft thread X [marks the spot] (Knicks own #8 pick, 11/18 DRAFT)

[moocow007]

if they're gonna take a backup C my choice would be Xavier Tillman

-High IQ
-great motor player
-protects the rim
-great passer
-can shoot a bit

He has limited to no upside. If you want that might as well sign someone Iike Aron Baynes.

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what do you mean no upside? I clearly see a rotational player in the NBA

not every draft pick has to have star potential. being able to find a rotational player later in the draft is a success, and Tillman definitely looks like he'll be a part of an NBA rotation

Not the point. The point is you can sign guys like this for very little in free agency so it would be more logical for you to use the pick on something that you can't sign.

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[moocow007]

not rading a 2021 pick to move up. Dallas is one luka injury from being a high lottery team. No way in hell to you give that up for not a sure thing.

That could be taken care of by either a top 5 protection or a Knicks or Mavs pick whichever is worse.

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yes but I want to trade up next year. Not this year. Save the ammo

I'm not sure that 2 late lottery picks will be enough to trade into the top 3 in 2021. 2020 sure.

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[HarthorneWingo]

Read on Twitter

?s=21

He intrigues me. Won't question it if we stand pat.

Reminds me of a possibly better Marcus Smart

[mpharris36]

That could be taken care of by either a top 5 protection or a Knicks or Mavs pick whichever is worse.

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yes but I want to trade up next year. Not this year. Save the ammo

I'm not sure that 2 late lottery picks will be enough to trade into the top 3 in 2021. 2020 sure.

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true

i don't think we will be a late lottery pick

Or at least im hoping

[moocow007]

yes but I want to trade up next year. Not this year. Save the ammo

I'm not sure that 2 late lottery picks will be enough to trade into the top 3 in 2021. 2020 sure.

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true

i don't think we will be a late lottery pick

Or at least im hoping

I'm guessing that Leon Rose is not trying to tank and since he's more competent than Steve Mills my guess is the Knicks will be in an even worse draft position next year than this.

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[mpharris36]

I'm not sure that 2 late lottery picks will be enough to trade into the top 3 in 2021. 2020 sure.

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true

i don't think we will be a late lottery pick

Or at least im hoping

I'm guessing that Leon Rose is not trying to tank and since he's more competent than Steve Mills my guess is the Knicks will be in an even worse draft position next year than this.

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maybe then we will finally get lucky and jump from like 8 to 1

[knickstape4ever]

He has limited to no upside. If you want that might as well sign someone Iike Aron Baynes.

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what do you mean no upside? I clearly see a rotational player in the NBA

not every draft pick has to have star potential. being able to find a rotational player later in the draft is a success, and Tillman definitely looks like he'll be a part of an NBA rotation

Not the point. The point is you can sign guys like this for very little in free agency so it would be more logical for you to use the pick on something that you can't sign.

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disagree. IMO you're underrating Tillman. he's an elite short roll passer and that's something that proved to be incredibly valuable in the postseason. that + his defense and I think Tillman even has starting potential

[iLLmatic860]

I'm not sure that 2 late lottery picks will be enough to trade into the top 3 in 2021. 2020 sure.

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true

i don't think we will be a late lottery pick

Or at least im hoping

I'm guessing that Leon Rose is not trying to tank and since he's more competent than Steve Mills my guess is the Knicks will be in an even worse draft position next year than this.

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Maybe by being competent we will be able to turn some of our players and players we draft into assets instead of throw ins

[moocow007]

Read on Twitter

?s=21

He intrigues me. Won't question it if we stand pat.

Reminds me of a possibly better Marcus Smart

Yeah Marcus Smart level player may be more than fair to expect. I'm just not seeing that he'll be able to score well enough for him to be a true 2 way star. I do think Okoro will be an excellent defensive player and he'll be someone that fans love cause he'll compete and do whatever it takes, all the dirty work, etc. and route for but I don't see star potential and a lot of that has to do with me not believing he can shoot well enough nor has the natural offensive feel to be able to consistently creative for himself. Can he be the next Jimmy Butler? I mean I guess but Butler was a lot more talented in the offensive end at the same age. I'm seeing someone that will be at the Smart, Winslow, Porter level. Not bad at all but not a star.

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[moocow007]

what do you mean no upside? I clearly see a rotational player in the NBA

not every draft pick has to have star potential. being able to find a rotational player later in the draft is a success, and Tillman definitely looks like he'll be a part of an NBA rotation

Not the point. The point is you can sign guys like this for very little in free agency so it would be more logical for you to use the pick on something that you can't sign.

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disagree. IMO you're underrating Tillman. he's an elite short roll passer and that's something that proved to be incredibly valuable in the postseason. that + his defense and I think Tillman even has starting potential

And where are you thinking the Knicks would draft him? Based on what you're saying he'd be gone by 27.

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[moocow007]

true

i don't think we will be a late lottery pick

Or at least im hoping

I'm guessing that Leon Rose is not trying to tank and since he's more competent than Steve Mills my guess is the Knicks will be in an even worse draft position next year than this.

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Maybe by being competent we will be able to turn some of our players and players we draft into assets instead of throw ins

Correct. While the top guys in 2021 are definitely tantalizing i don't think that planning to just stagnate and try getting a top 3 again is a good plan.

With Thibs in charge I cannot see this team make the types of mental lapses and uneven play that has contributed to the poor records they had the past several seasons. So that means the chances of landing a top 3 pick likely will be less.

They should look to do what it takes to draft the best talent possible here (obviously within reason), trade for whatever guys or sign whatever guys they think can develop into the best players now and just move forward.

If they really focus on developing and getting these guys to play the right way, to mature their games, they very much can have significantly better assets than trying to hope for an injury to Luka and finally (?) a lucky bounce of the lotto balls to improve this franchise.

Folks should remember that for years and years now Wiseman had been talked about as a "special talent"...and a possible generational player.

And now, hes arguably the most disrespected former no.1 prospect coming out of HS in the history of the NBA cause...he left Memphis early? Cause he doesn't shoot a 3? It just point to the volatility of how good a HS player, even the top ones, can be just one short year later in the court of public opinion and over zealous internet punditry.

To which, I can see why Rose and his new talent evaluators would like Wiseman. Its the same reason I said all along that folks are believing the none hype too much and get swayed by anyone with internet pen too eaisly.

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[mpharris36]

I'm guessing that Leon Rose is not trying to tank and since he's more competent than Steve Mills my guess is the Knicks will be in an even worse draft position next year than this.

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Maybe by being competent we will be able to turn some of our players and players we draft into assets instead of throw ins

Correct. While the top guys in 2021 are definitely tantalizing i don't think that planning to just stagnate and try getting a top 3 again is a good plan.

With Thibs in charge I cannot see this team make the types of mental lapses and uneven play that has contributed to even the poor records they had the past several years.

So that means the chances of landing a top 3 pick likely will be less.

They should look to do what it takes to draft the best talent possible here, trade for whatever guys or sign whatever guys they think can develop into the best players now and just move forward.

If they really focus on developing and getting these guys to play the right way, to mature their games, they very much can have significantly better assets than trying to hope for an injury to Luka and finally (?) a lucky bounce of the lotto balls to improve this franchise.

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I get that I do. But like I said with Luka, sometimes you need to have the next 10 years in mind. There is likely to be a similar style prospect.

I love the fact the team wants to be better but as Luka did to Dallas they immidietly bacame a contender with just adding him via the draft. It could be a similar situation. I would hate to miss out on that.

[Juco24]

Yeah sounds way to good to be true lol. Who is even the source?

Dude is a Bulls fan and stated that the rumor has been circulating for a while. I don't believe it but wanted to see if anyone here heard it.

Watch on YouTube

Porters owed $28 million this upcoming season. Thats a lot of financial savings for the Bulls. I like Porter but I can't see any other team taking him so the Knicks have some significant leverage. 8 and Knox for 4 ok. 8 and Knox for 4 and Porters contract? Hmmm... I'm don't hate Knox as most of the guys here so I don't think that Knox is poo (I actually think he has positive value still)...and apparently both the Bulls and the Thunder agree. Knicks should get something else (like a pic swap option in 2021) to take that $28 million on in this economic climate and whatever or whomever the Bulls use that sudden mega capspace on.

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Yeah I agree... some don't see a few reasons why this is not as lopsided as it first appears

* 28 million when you didn't take in the norm (pandemic) is a huge savings
* Knox 'may' have a good year - he's still young
* 4 talent vs 8 talent in this draft is not a big difference
* Porter has not played well since he got paid

[moocow007]

Dude is a Bulls fan and stated that the rumor has been circulating for a while. I don't believe it but wanted to see if anyone here heard it.

Watch on YouTube

Porters owed $28 million this upcoming season. Thats a lot of financial savings for the Bulls. I like Porter but I can't see any other team taking him so the Knicks have some significant leverage. 8 and Knox for 4 ok. 8 and Knox for 4 and Porters contract? Hmmm... I'm don't hate Knox as most of the guys here so I don't think that Knox is poo (I actually think he has positive value still)...and apparently both the Bulls and the Thunder agree. Knicks should get something else (like a pic swap option in 2021) to take that $28 million on in this economic climate and whatever or whomever the Bulls use that sudden mega capspace on.

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Yeah I agree... some don't see a few reasons why this is not as lopsided as it first appears

* 28 million when you didn't take in the norm (pandemic) is a huge savings
* Knox 'may' have a good year - he's still young
* 4 talent vs 8 talent in this draft is not a big difference
* Porter has not played well since he got paid

Yep. Buy folks let their extreme dislike, massive disappointment and/or undying hate for Knox convince them that this is a great trade.

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[knickstape4ever]

I'm not sure that 2 late lottery picks will be enough to trade into the top 3 in 2021. 2020 sure.

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true

i don't think we will be a late lottery pick

Or at least im hoping

I'm guessing that Leon Rose is not trying to tank and since he's more competent than Steve Mills my guess is the Knicks will be in an even worse draft position next year than this.

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idk, I can definitely see us being a bottom 5 team. What players are really on the market that will make this team much better? CP3? yeah, but I think he goes to Philly

looking at the teams w/ worse records last year, and you can make the argument most will be better next year:

Warriors: playoff team next season
Cavs: possibly worse than Knicks, but they were also 4-4 w/ Drummond, so they'll improve w/ Sexton and Garland, Love + #5
Wolves: Full season of KAT and D'Lo + #1
Hawks: nice young core w/ Trae, Huerter, Hunter, Reddish, Collins, #6 + they'll have Capela who'll definitely be a big help for them
Pistons: like Cavs, another possible worse team. but they could be better w/ healthy Griffin (big if) and if they retain Wood, draft a solid PG

and looking at the teams that finished ahead of the Knicks:
Bulls: I expect them to improve w/ Carter and Lauri healthy + #4 + big coaching improvement w/ Billy Donovan>Jim Boylen
Hornets: could be worse, I thought they overachieved last season, but they did also get #3
Wizards: they'll be better w/ Wall back
Suns: arrow is pointing up for them
Spurs: I doubt they finish bottom 5 w/ Pop; still have Aldridge and possibly DeRozan and some solid young players (Murray, White)
Kings: maybe, b/c the is West tough; but they do have Fox (emerging star IMO) and Bagley will be back
Pelicans: arrow pointing up for them w/ a healthy Zion
Grizzlies: maybe b/c the West and b/c they overachieved last season. but like the Kings they have a young star in Morant and other great young players like JJJ, Clarke Brooks is solid
Magic: maybe b/c the injury to Isaac, but other than that they should be returning the same players, and are well-coached
Thunder: maybe b/c they'll trade CP3, being in the West, but they'll get something in return + they have a nice building block in Shai

of these teams I count about 6 that could be worse than the Knicks next season: Cavs, Pistons, Hornets, Kings, Grizzlies, Thunder and of those 6, I dont think all those teams will have worse records

[moocow007]

true

i don't think we will be a late lottery pick

Or at least im hoping

I'm guessing that Leon Rose is not trying to tank and since he's more competent than Steve Mills my guess is the Knicks will be in an even worse draft position next year than this.

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idk, I can definitely see us being a bottom 5 team. What players are really on the market that will make this team much better? CP3? yeah, but I think he goes to Philly

looking at the teams w/ worse records last year, and you can make the argument most will be better next year:

Warriors: playoff team next season
Cavs: possibly worse than Knicks, but they were also 4-4 w/ Drummond, so they'll improve w/ Sexton and Garland, Love + #5
Wolves: Full season of KAT and D'Lo + #1
Hawks: nice young core w/ Trae, Huerter, Hunter, Reddish, Collins, #6 + they'll have Capela who'll definitely be a big help for them
Pistons: like Cavs, another possible worse team. but they could be better w/ healthy Griffin (big if) and if they retain Wood, draft a solid PG

and looking at the teams that finished ahead of the Knicks:
Bulls: I expect them to improve w/ Carter and Lauri healthy + #4 + big coaching improvement w/ Billy Donovan>Jim Boylen
Hornets: could be worse, I thought they overachieved last season, but they did also get #3
Wizards: they'll be better w/ Wall back
Suns: arrow is pointing up for them
Spurs: I doubt they finish bottom 5 w/ Pop; still have Aldridge and possibly DeRozan and some solid young players (Murray, White)
Kings: maybe, b/c the is West tough; but they do have Fox (emerging star IMO) and Bagley will be back
Pelicans: arrow pointing up for them w/ a healthy Zion
Grizzlies: maybe b/c the West and b/c they overachieved last season. but like the Kings they have a young star in Morant and other great young players like JJJ, Clarke Brooks is solid
Magic: maybe b/c the injury to Isaac, but other than that they should be returning the same players, and are well-coached
Thunder: maybe b/c they'll trade CP3, being in the West, but they'll get something in return + they have a nice building block in Shai

of these teams I count about 6 that could be worse than the Knicks next season: Cavs, Pistons, Hornets, Kings, Grizzlies, Thunder and of those 6, I dont think all those teams will have worse records

But are you factoring the Knicks own improvement especially now you've got a coach that actually has shown he can win big in the NBA? The Knicks also should be better, especially if they follow through with what Rose appears to be directing this team towards (win sooner rather than later)? If the Knicks do well in the standings and I their player development then the players they do have now will have a lot more value. Those are things they can control. The other teams records and the randomness of the lottery combinations is not something they can control. Sure they can finally get lucky. But if they don't then what? Another year of tanking? Thats not what they brought in any if the guys they brought in here for. So it would then indicate that, once again, the Knicks have failed to execute and, as a result an ongoing never ending spiral of try and fail (often miserably). Its not necessarily a bad thing to try and win. The reason why the Knicks previous attempts to win failed wasn't because the plan was bad, it was because they didn't have the skills to execute it. One has to believe that this group does.

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[knickstape4ever]

Not the point. The point is you can sign guys like this for very little in free agency so it would be more logical for you to use the pick on something that you can't sign.

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disagree. IMO you're underrating Tillman. he's an elite short roll passer and that's something that proved to be incredibly valuable in the postseason. that + his defense and I think Tillman even has starting potential

And where are you thinking the Knicks would draft him? Based on what you're saying he'd be gone by 27.

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Yeah, I'd be fine taking him at 27 (depending who else is on the board)

just b/c I think he's a potential starter doesn't mean he can't last to 27. I also wouldn't be surprised if he went earlier than 27

he's a 22 y/o C, those guys don't get taken high in the draft; doesn't mean he's not talented enough to be a starter just b/c he may fall to 27

[B8RcDeMktfxC]

Porters owed $28 million this upcoming season. Thats a lot of financial savings for the Bulls. I like Porter but I can't see any other team taking him so the Knicks have some significant leverage. 8 and Knox for 4 ok. 8 and Knox for 4 and Porters contract? Hmmm... I'm don't hate Knox as most of the guys here so I don't think that Knox is poo (I actually think he has positive value still)...and apparently both the Bulls and the Thunder agree. Knicks should get something else (like a pic swap option in 2021) to take that $28 million on in this economic climate and whatever or whomever the Bulls use that sudden mega capspace on.

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Yeah I agree... some don't see a few reasons why this is not as lopsided as it first appears

* 28 million when you didn't take in the norm (pandemic) is a huge savings
* Knox 'may' have a good year - he's still young
* 4 talent vs 8 talent in this draft is not a big difference
* Porter has not played well since he got paid

Yep. Buy folks let their extreme dislike, massive disappointment and/or undying hate for Knox convince them that this is a great trade.

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I haven't really been glued to the subforum for a few days. Is the idea that the Knicks get #4 instead of #8 at the cost of a $22m (or w/e) salary cap hit (which is presumably affordable if they aren't in win now mode)?

That just sounds like a terrible idea. What use would anyone have of the #4 pick over the #8 this year?

Explain to me like I'm a 5 year old what I'm missing here, please.

[knickstape4ever]

I'm guessing that Leon Rose is not trying to tank and since he's more competent than Steve Mills my guess is the Knicks will be in an even worse draft position next year than this.

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idk, I can definitely see us being a bottom 5 team. What players are really on the market that will make this team much better? CP3? yeah, but I think he goes to Philly

looking at the teams w/ worse records last year, and you can make the argument most will be better next year:

Warriors: playoff team next season
Cavs: possibly worse than Knicks, but they were also 4-4 w/ Drummond, so they'll improve w/ Sexton and Garland, Love + #5
Wolves: Full season of KAT and D'Lo + #1
Hawks: nice young core w/ Trae, Huerter, Hunter, Reddish, Collins, #6 + they'll have Capela who'll definitely be a big help for them
Pistons: like Cavs, another possible worse team. but they could be better w/ healthy Griffin (big if) and if they retain Wood, draft a solid PG

and looking at the teams that finished ahead of the Knicks:
Bulls: I expect them to improve w/ Carter and Lauri healthy + #4 + big coaching improvement w/ Billy Donovan>Jim Boylen
Hornets: could be worse, I thought they overachieved last season, but they did also get #3
Wizards: they'll be better w/ Wall back
Suns: arrow is pointing up for them
Spurs: I doubt they finish bottom 5 w/ Pop; still have Aldridge and possibly DeRozan and some solid young players (Murray, White)
Kings: maybe, b/c the is West tough; but they do have Fox (emerging star IMO) and Bagley will be back
Pelicans: arrow pointing up for them w/ a healthy Zion
Grizzlies: maybe b/c the West and b/c they overachieved last season. but like the Kings they have a young star in Morant and other great young players like JJJ, Clarke Brooks is solid
Magic: maybe b/c the injury to Isaac, but other than that they should be returning the same players, and are well-coached
Thunder: maybe b/c they'll trade CP3, being in the West, but they'll get something in return + they have a nice building block in Shai

of these teams I count about 6 that could be worse than the Knicks next season: Cavs, Pistons, Hornets, Kings, Grizzlies, Thunder and of those 6, I dont think all those teams will have worse records

But are you factoring the Knicks own improvement especially now you've got a coach that actually has shown he can win big in the NBA? The Knicks also should be better, especially if they follow through with what Rose appears to be directing this team towards (win sooner rather than later)? If the Knicks do well in the standings and I their player development then the players they do have now will have a lot more value. Those are things they can control. The other teams records and the randomness of the lottery combinations is not something they can control. Sure they can finally get lucky. But if they don't then what? Another year of tanking? Thats not what they brought in any if the guys they brought in here for. So it would then indicate that, once again, the Knicks have failed to execute and, as a result an ongoing never ending spiral of try and fail (often miserably). Its not necessarily a bad thing to try and win. The reason why the Knicks previous attempts to win failed wasn't because the plan was bad, it was because they didn't have the skills to execute it. One has to believe that this group does.

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other than CP3, Westbrook and Oladipo what players are on the market that will make the Knicks much better?

and while I do think Thibs' will get them on the winning track, it's not gonna be easy year 1 especially considering the COVID circumstances. By the time next season starts, it'll have been close to a year w/o playing. b/c of this, I'd think that teams that were left out of the bubble, especially one's that will have new HC's will be at a bit of a disadvantage.

+ Thibs' 1st year in Minnesota was a 31 win season, only a 2 win improvement from the year before. it takes time

there are conflicting reports about the direction of the team under Rose, and I'm not sure anyone on the outside really knows what they'll do. On one hand, we've heard them connected w/ CP3, Westbrook, Dipo, but on the other hand, we've also heard that they're prioritizing the 2021 draft

If the Knicks do well in the standings and I their player development then the players they do have now will have a lot more value

sure, but the same can be said about a bunch of those other teams who have equally as much young talent, if not more (Cavs, Hornets, Kings, Grizzlies) all have some good young talent

I'm not saying tank, but I wouldn't force any win-now moves. play the young talent we have, get some better veteran fits around them (would really like to get a stretch-4), and see what happens. the 2021 draft is stacked and there are at least 6 prospects that I'd take #1 right now if they were in this draft.

and if they don't get lucky in the lottery? yeah it would be a bummer but you dont necessarily need the top picks if you have a good scouting department and a good coaching staff, which like you said we have

+ Knicks have a nice stockpile of picks, so even if they didnt get lucky in the lottery, it's a lot easier to move from 6/7 into the top 3 than it is from 12/13

[Nazrmohamed]

He has limited to no upside. If you want that might as well sign someone Iike Aron Baynes.

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what do you mean no upside? I clearly see a rotational player in the NBA

not every draft pick has to have star potential. being able to find a rotational player later in the draft is a success, and Tillman definitely looks like he'll be a part of an NBA rotation

Not the point. The point is you can sign guys like this for very little in free agency so it would be more logical for you to use the pick on something that you can't sign.

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True but was he taking about him at pick 8 or just in general. Cause at pick 38 its not a horrible move just not my favorite.