"A Tale of 2 Hardawayz"

[3toheadmelo]

tim's contract

Spoiler:

tim's defense

Spoiler:

tim's shot selection

Spoiler:

tim's shimmy

Spoiler:

[Marty McFly]

You don't throw money at guys that can't lead you to the promise land either. If you give KP that money to be your 2nd best player but he's your best player and you have no chance at getting one better you're paying a #2 to be your #1 which is what we just went through with Melo.

uh, No. it's not. Porzingis is 22. there's still that thing called potential. every team in the league is taking that gamble if given the opportunity. Tim literally got his contract based on the same concept, at the age of 25, without anywhere the ceiling that porzingis does.

Klay got his contract under a lower cap. Not even comparable.When Klay got his extension it was 27% of the cap. The Warriors are benefitting from a perfectly timed cap jump that allowed them to extend their top 3 guys for what ended up being chump change. There's no new TV deal coming soon so their situation is irrelevant.

it's way more comparable than the melo/porzingis analogy.

The warriors already had their core in place when those guys got extended. we signed our third guy when it's still debatable whether not our 1 guy is a 1 or a 2. that's the point.

[Marty McFly]

So ok let's say the Knicks didn't sign him. Now what? We still have only 17 mil in cap space if Kanter opts in this offseason and 10 mil in cap space if KP gets his max in 2019. How does that put us in a better position long term?

EDIT: And your elaboration was still false because Tim is 3rd on the team with his contract.

you keep missing the point.

the worst thing this team could have done was sign guys when your core isn't in place. you aren't considering the salary cap implications that signing these guys does to your teams potential. it sure as **** puts a cap on this teams ceiling.

[Deeeez Knicks]

You guys don't understand that after next year we have to sign KP. To a max deal. If Timmy wasn't on the books we'd have only 17 million in the 2018 free agency and 10 million in the 2019 free agency (assuming we resign KP). Who are we getting for 17 this year or 10 million the year after better than Timmy? Please elaborate for me?

That's what y'all don't get. Noah/Lance/Lee/Kanter (or Melo) already ruined our cap situation until KP gets paid and after KP gets paid we won't have the cap to add anyone.

I understand our cap was not in good shape, but I see that as a reason not to sign Hardaway. If we can’t sign anyone without Hardaway’s salary on the books, we are not signing anyone with him. We made a bad situation worse and harder to sign a true max in free agency.

I would have just accepted that we were going to be a bad team and maybe focus on 2019 as a year we could make a move in free agency instead of trying to skip steps and play this middle ground.

The draft is probably the best place for us to find players at this point, which is another plus to just accepting we are not a good team.

We couldn't sign a true max without him anyway so why not get a 25 year old that can be a good 3rd option? You're saying focus on 2019 but we'd have 10 million without Timmy on the books in 2019 (assuming KP gets the max - haven't even thought about him becoming supermax eligible) so what would we do? Sign someone worse than Timmy? Now how would that help us have a higher trajectory?

That is not true. KP's cap hold is about $17mil. I think Lance only counts $1mil on the cap. We could have $40mil+ in cap space even with other cap holds without Hardaway. If we move Lee and/or stretch Noah we'd have even more if needed.

We still have a chance for a max even with Hardaway.

KP getting hurt messes up that plan anyway since we will still be bad next year and its throws some question marks in. That kind of injury can derail any plan.

[Marty McFly]

If the Knicks had their nucleus in place then made the THJ signing, I’d be more for it.

exactly. this isn't a difficult concept to understand.

[Oscirus]

Y'all were clowning that contract, but jokes on you, Mills paid for two guards

[E-Balla]

uh, No. it's not. Porzingis is 22. there's still that thing called potential. every team in the league is taking that gamble if given the opportunity. Tim literally got his contract based on the same concept, at the age of 25, without anywhere the ceiling that porzingis does.

So like I said you move forward as if KP is a superstar and that's why you throw him that money and in the case KP is a superstar Tim can be a good #3 with that contract. You're saying you'd rather throw him that money to be our #2 with no plan to get a #1 in which case you're throwing that money at a #2 to be a #1 which will always fail.

it's way more comparable than the melo/porzingis analogy.

The warriors already had their core in place when those guys got extended. we signed our third guy when it's still debatable whether not our 1 guy is a 1 or a 2. that's the point.

But if we didn't get Timmy would we have space to get another 3rd guy? No... So what are you complaining about?

you keep missing the point.

the worst thing this team could have done was sign guys when your core isn't in place. you aren't considering the salary cap implications that signing these guys does to your teams potential. it sure as **** puts a cap on this teams ceiling.

Tell me what the salary cap implications are for signing Tim vs if we didn't? Please. If you knew what you were talking about you'd know whether we had Tim or not we'd have no cap space. You're arguing based on the premise that Hardaway messed up our cap space when we'd still have $83 in cap going into next offseason if Kanter doesn't opt out even if we didn't have Timmy. The actual reality is that there was no cap space for his contract to mess up since Phil already ruined our cap space and left just enough to sign someone for 17 million in either the 2017 or 2018 FA.

[thebuzzardman]

What complete ****. Tim started off the season on the bench last year playing 20 mpg in the first 18 games of the season, then took the 6th man role playing 25 mpg over the next 27 games and playing great, then the Hawks traded Threezus to open up a spot for him in the starting 5 and he averaged 33 mpg over the next 34 games putting up 18 ppg, 3.7 rpg, 2.9 apg, and leading the team in minutes and points.

Over the last 35 games of that season here's the Hawks big 3:

Points - Timmy (612), Dennis (595), Millsap (470)
Minutes - Timmy (1119), Dennis (1053), Millsap (858)

Now Millsap got injured and per game averaged more than those two but per game it looks like:

Timmy: 32.9 mpg, 18.0 ppg
Millsap: 34.3 mpg, 18.8 ppg
Dennis: 32.9 mpg, 18.6 ppg

And remember Timmy started only 25 of those last 34 games (and when he started he played 34.1 mpg). Timmy was the clear 2nd best player, and he was Bud's most played player by the end of the season.

Now onto his play this year he got off to a rough start, then played like a legit 2nd option for a while, got hurt, and by the time he was back healthy KP was hurt and the season was dead.

I'd say he had just as good of a year as expected but having to be the best player the last 20 or so games made him look bad because that's not him. He's a mediocre 2nd option/good 3rd option kind of guy and I think its great he found a way to produce in a season where he was shooting a career low from 3, playing out of position, and was banged up. He's still a 25 year old giving us 18/4/3 every night and since he's gotten healthy without KP he's averaging 20.2/3.5/2.4 on 56.1 TS% (19 games too).

IDK what y'all expected beyond that. He's only making 16.7% of the cap this year (or equal to $10-10.5 million under the old cap) and y'all upset he's not an All Star. JJ Redick is making 23 mil, Harrison Barnes is making 23 mil, Batum is making 22 mil, Gallo is making 21 mil, Crabbe is making 19 mil, and Wes Matthews is making 18 mil. If I was grading his season I'd give him a C or C+. About what I expected, possibly a little better for being able to perform despite having injuries.

16.7% isn’t a small number

It is. Tim is the 29th highest paid SG/SF putting him almost exactly as the median starting wing when it comes to his contract (the true median is 30th ranked Tobias Harris at $16 million). Timmy is a slightly above average starter in terms of production, while being 1.2 years younger than the average player, and making $0.5 million over the average starter at the 2/3 (and that's including all the guys that got contracts in the old cap). That's a good deal no matter how you break it down.

I wouldn't mind his salary and his production, in spite of his mega streakiness, if he didn't suck on defense.

[E-Balla]

I understand our cap was not in good shape, but I see that as a reason not to sign Hardaway. If we can’t sign anyone without Hardaway’s salary on the books, we are not signing anyone with him. We made a bad situation worse and harder to sign a true max in free agency.

I would have just accepted that we were going to be a bad team and maybe focus on 2019 as a year we could make a move in free agency instead of trying to skip steps and play this middle ground.

The draft is probably the best place for us to find players at this point, which is another plus to just accepting we are not a good team.

We couldn't sign a true max without him anyway so why not get a 25 year old that can be a good 3rd option? You're saying focus on 2019 but we'd have 10 million without Timmy on the books in 2019 (assuming KP gets the max - haven't even thought about him becoming supermax eligible) so what would we do? Sign someone worse than Timmy? Now how would that help us have a higher trajectory?

That is not true. KP's cap hold is about $17mil. I think Lance only counts $1mil on the cap. We could have $40mil+ in cap space even with other cap holds without Hardaway. If we move Lee and/or stretch Noah we'd have even more if needed.

We still have a chance for a max even with Hardaway.

KP getting hurt messes up that plan anyway since we will still be bad next year and its throws some question marks in. That kind of injury can derail any plan.

Couldn't be more wrong if you wanted to be. Lance is making $7.1 million in 2019 IDK where you got $1 mil from when he signed a 4 year, 27.5 million dollar deal. And KP's cap hold if he signs a max contract will be $28-30 million. Embiid got the max and he's due for 4 years, $148 million with a $25 million hold in year one and KP's will be higher than that because of the rising cap not even mentioning that he might possibly qualify for the super max. You seriously need to look at how contracts work...

[Jonathan starks]

16.7% isn’t a small number

It is. Tim is the 29th highest paid SG/SF putting him almost exactly as the median starting wing when it comes to his contract (the true median is 30th ranked Tobias Harris at $16 million). Timmy is a slightly above average starter in terms of production, while being 1.2 years younger than the average player, and making $0.5 million over the average starter at the 2/3 (and that's including all the guys that got contracts in the old cap). That's a good deal no matter how you break it down.

I wouldn't mind his salary and his production, in spite of his mega streakiness, if he didn't suck on defense.

I don’t mean this as an insult, but maybe you ball watch too much. If you watch him on D, you’ll see that he’s not bad at all. Sure he has his lapses, but overall he’s solid.

[Deeeez Knicks]

We couldn't sign a true max without him anyway so why not get a 25 year old that can be a good 3rd option? You're saying focus on 2019 but we'd have 10 million without Timmy on the books in 2019 (assuming KP gets the max - haven't even thought about him becoming supermax eligible) so what would we do? Sign someone worse than Timmy? Now how would that help us have a higher trajectory?

That is not true. KP's cap hold is about $17mil. I think Lance only counts $1mil on the cap. We could have $40mil+ in cap space even with other cap holds without Hardaway. If we move Lee and/or stretch Noah we'd have even more if needed.

We still have a chance for a max even with Hardaway.

KP getting hurt messes up that plan anyway since we will still be bad next year and its throws some question marks in. That kind of injury can derail any plan.

Couldn't be more wrong if you wanted to be. Lance is making $7.1 million in 2019 IDK where you got $1 mil from when he signed a 4 year, 27.5 million dollar deal. And KP's cap hold if he signs a max contract will be $28-30 million. Embiid got the max and he's due for 4 years, $148 million with a $25 million hold in year one and KP's will be higher than that because of the rising cap not even mentioning that he might possibly qualify for the super max. You seriously need to look at how contracts work...

Both are correct including what I wrote. Before a player signs they have a cap hold. KPs cap hold is 300% of his previous salary which would be $17.1 mil. We could sign other players first with KPs cap hold of $17.1 mil then go over the cap to sign him to a max.

If we sign him first officially then he would have whatever he signs as his cap number.

Lance I'm not sure about but a bunch of sites list his contract as unguaranteed and only $1 mil cap hiy

[thebuzzardman]

It is. Tim is the 29th highest paid SG/SF putting him almost exactly as the median starting wing when it comes to his contract (the true median is 30th ranked Tobias Harris at $16 million). Timmy is a slightly above average starter in terms of production, while being 1.2 years younger than the average player, and making $0.5 million over the average starter at the 2/3 (and that's including all the guys that got contracts in the old cap). That's a good deal no matter how you break it down.

I wouldn't mind his salary and his production, in spite of his mega streakiness, if he didn't suck on defense.

I don’t mean this as an insult, but maybe you ball watch too much. If you watch him on D, you’ll see that he’s not bad at all. Sure he has his lapses, but overall he’s solid.

Sucks might be harsh, but he isn't that good. Solid is a stretch. He takes tons of plays off. Saving himself for offense I guess.

Yeah, I can watch the ball and watch guys switch, shade, etc.

I can't decide who is worse at saying f*ck it, I'll leave that guy outside open, Beasley or THJr.

Granted, since Jefe's defense seems to overemphasize shading to the inside, all the Knick defenders look pretty bad on closeouts, but some look worse than others and THJr is in that "worse than others" group.

Solid would imply "adequate" and he's not a solid defender. He's not an average defender. Not abysmal, but just not good. He looked better in Atlanta, but there were better coached and clearly coach Bud held Tim accountable to a higher standard, which he did. Those habits wore off by about game 20 this year.

[whocares1]

uh, No. it's not. Porzingis is 22. there's still that thing called potential. every team in the league is taking that gamble if given the opportunity. Tim literally got his contract based on the same concept, at the age of 25, without anywhere the ceiling that porzingis does.

So like I said you move forward as if KP is a superstar and that's why you throw him that money and in the case KP is a superstar Tim can be a good #3 with that contract. You're saying you'd rather throw him that money to be our #2 with no plan to get a #1 in which case you're throwing that money at a #2 to be a #1 which will always fail.

it's way more comparable than the melo/porzingis analogy.

The warriors already had their core in place when those guys got extended. we signed our third guy when it's still debatable whether not our 1 guy is a 1 or a 2. that's the point.

But if we didn't get Timmy would we have space to get another 3rd guy? No... So what are you complaining about?

Spoiler:

you keep missing the point.

the worst thing this team could have done was sign guys when your core isn't in place. you aren't considering the salary cap implications that signing these guys does to your teams potential. it sure as **** puts a cap on this teams ceiling.

Tell me what the salary cap implications are for signing Tim vs if we didn't? Please. If you knew what you were talking about you'd know whether we had Tim or not we'd have no cap space. You're arguing based on the premise that Hardaway messed up our cap space when we'd still have $83 in cap going into next offseason if Kanter doesn't opt out even if we didn't have Timmy. The actual reality is that there was no cap space for his contract to mess up since Phil already ruined our cap space and left just enough to sign someone for 17 million in either the 2017 or 2018 FA.

You’re implying that the Knicks would be looking for their core in free agency. Hardaway’s contract doesn’t make sense because he’s a marginal difference maker and makes the team only 3-4 wins better. Essentially he not only is a waste of cap space, but now he affects the ability to draft top draft prospects. You don’t waste cap space on non core pieces unless they’re short term contracts for veterans that understand they won’t be starting over young players.

[Jonathan starks]

I wouldn't mind his salary and his production, in spite of his mega streakiness, if he didn't suck on defense.

I don’t mean this as an insult, but maybe you ball watch too much. If you watch him on D, you’ll see that he’s not bad at all. Sure he has his lapses, but overall he’s solid.

Sucks might be harsh, but he isn't that good. Solid is a stretch. He takes tons of plays off. Saving himself for offense I guess.

Don’t get me wrong I could see how you would think he sucks. At at times he looks awful on the defensive end, but in general he’s usually in the right position, has a low defensive stance and has pretty quick feet. One thing we can agree on is he’s a lot better on defense now compared to his first stint here. He used to be the worst defensive guard in the league.

[E-Balla]

That is not true. KP's cap hold is about $17mil. I think Lance only counts $1mil on the cap. We could have $40mil+ in cap space even with other cap holds without Hardaway. If we move Lee and/or stretch Noah we'd have even more if needed.

We still have a chance for a max even with Hardaway.

KP getting hurt messes up that plan anyway since we will still be bad next year and its throws some question marks in. That kind of injury can derail any plan.

Couldn't be more wrong if you wanted to be. Lance is making $7.1 million in 2019 IDK where you got $1 mil from when he signed a 4 year, 27.5 million dollar deal. And KP's cap hold if he signs a max contract will be $28-30 million. Embiid got the max and he's due for 4 years, $148 million with a $25 million hold in year one and KP's will be higher than that because of the rising cap not even mentioning that he might possibly qualify for the super max. You seriously need to look at how contracts work...

Both are correct including what I wrote. Before a player signs they have a cap hold. KPs cap hold is 300% of his previous salary which would be $17.1 mil. We could sign other players first with KPs cap hold of $17.1 mil then go over the cap to sign him to a max.

If we sign him first officially then he would have whatever he signs as his cap number.

Lance I'm not sure about but a bunch of sites list his contract as unguaranteed and only $1 mil cap hiy

You think we'll wait until after the season to extend KP? After that injury he's going to want to sign as soon as possible and we'll sign him as soon as possible.

[thebuzzardman]

I don’t mean this as an insult, but maybe you ball watch too much. If you watch him on D, you’ll see that he’s not bad at all. Sure he has his lapses, but overall he’s solid.

Sucks might be harsh, but he isn't that good. Solid is a stretch. He takes tons of plays off. Saving himself for offense I guess.

Don’t get me wrong I could see how you would think he sucks. At at times he looks awful on the defensive end, but in general he’s usually in the right position, has a low defensive stance and has pretty quick feet. One thing we can agree on is he’s a lot better on defense now compared to his first stint here. He used to be the worst defensive guard in the league.

Absolutely better. And I like to beat up on him because I'm not a fan of the deal, but sucks was too harsh. But I'm not sold on him being average. I should just stop going on about it until the Knicks get rid of Jefe and Rambis because they aren't doing the players any favors. I want to see him with a new coach - that would be fair.

[E-Balla]

uh, No. it's not. Porzingis is 22. there's still that thing called potential. every team in the league is taking that gamble if given the opportunity. Tim literally got his contract based on the same concept, at the age of 25, without anywhere the ceiling that porzingis does.

So like I said you move forward as if KP is a superstar and that's why you throw him that money and in the case KP is a superstar Tim can be a good #3 with that contract. You're saying you'd rather throw him that money to be our #2 with no plan to get a #1 in which case you're throwing that money at a #2 to be a #1 which will always fail.

it's way more comparable than the melo/porzingis analogy.

The warriors already had their core in place when those guys got extended. we signed our third guy when it's still debatable whether not our 1 guy is a 1 or a 2. that's the point.

But if we didn't get Timmy would we have space to get another 3rd guy? No... So what are you complaining about?

Spoiler:

you keep missing the point.

the worst thing this team could have done was sign guys when your core isn't in place. you aren't considering the salary cap implications that signing these guys does to your teams potential. it sure as **** puts a cap on this teams ceiling.

Tell me what the salary cap implications are for signing Tim vs if we didn't? Please. If you knew what you were talking about you'd know whether we had Tim or not we'd have no cap space. You're arguing based on the premise that Hardaway messed up our cap space when we'd still have $83 in cap going into next offseason if Kanter doesn't opt out even if we didn't have Timmy. The actual reality is that there was no cap space for his contract to mess up since Phil already ruined our cap space and left just enough to sign someone for 17 million in either the 2017 or 2018 FA.

You’re implying that the Knicks would be looking for their core in free agency. Hardaway’s contract doesn’t make sense because he’s a marginal difference maker and makes the team only 3-4 wins better. Essentially he not only is a waste of cap space, but now he affects the ability to draft top draft prospects. You don’t waste cap space on non core pieces unless they’re short term contracts for veterans that understand they won’t be starting over young players.

So you're saying you think we shouldn't have signed Hardaway so we could have a half assed tank even though we already have KP on the roster? Now what if KP became THAT guy and we didn't hit on any of those picks. Congrats we wasted his whole prime like Minny did with KG because we waited for him to become a star to become serious about building around him.

I swear y'all would be happier if we were the Sacramento Kings and lost every year and kept tanking but failing because these alternatives to Timmy are all terrible.

[E-Balla]

Sucks might be harsh, but he isn't that good. Solid is a stretch. He takes tons of plays off. Saving himself for offense I guess.

Don’t get me wrong I could see how you would think he sucks. At at times he looks awful on the defensive end, but in general he’s usually in the right position, has a low defensive stance and has pretty quick feet. One thing we can agree on is he’s a lot better on defense now compared to his first stint here. He used to be the worst defensive guard in the league.

Absolutely better. And I like to beat up on him because I'm not a fan of the deal, but sucks was too harsh. But I'm not sold on him being average. I should just stop going on about it until the Knicks get rid of Jefe and Rambis because they aren't doing the players any favors. I want to see him with a new coach - that would be fair.

He was definitely above average defensively early in the year. Once the losing started you could see his interest on that end wane but I think he's at worse average. Definitely not a liability.

[Jonathan starks]

Sucks might be harsh, but he isn't that good. Solid is a stretch. He takes tons of plays off. Saving himself for offense I guess.

Don’t get me wrong I could see how you would think he sucks. At at times he looks awful on the defensive end, but in general he’s usually in the right position, has a low defensive stance and has pretty quick feet. One thing we can agree on is he’s a lot better on defense now compared to his first stint here. He used to be the worst defensive guard in the league.

Absolutely better. And I like to beat up on him because I'm not a fan of the deal, but sucks was too harsh. But I'm not sold on him being average. I should just stop going on about it until the Knicks get rid of Jefe and Rambis because they aren't doing the players any favors. I want to see him with a new coach - that would be fair.

So far he hasn’t lived up to the deal, so I’ll give you that, but I’d like to see him healthier next season, to see if he can live up to his potential. I don’t mind the deal because I think it has the potential to be a good contract. I believe the potential is there. Whether he lives up to it or not, only time will tell. I think his main problem is his jumper, which is really a mystery because he’s got a good looking shot, but more often then not it hasn’t fallen for him this year. The second half of last year his shot was falling, if my memory serves me correct, but this year he hasn’t found any consistency with it.

[Deeeez Knicks]

Couldn't be more wrong if you wanted to be. Lance is making $7.1 million in 2019 IDK where you got $1 mil from when he signed a 4 year, 27.5 million dollar deal. And KP's cap hold if he signs a max contract will be $28-30 million. Embiid got the max and he's due for 4 years, $148 million with a $25 million hold in year one and KP's will be higher than that because of the rising cap not even mentioning that he might possibly qualify for the super max. You seriously need to look at how contracts work...

Both are correct including what I wrote. Before a player signs they have a cap hold. KPs cap hold is 300% of his previous salary which would be $17.1 mil. We could sign other players first with KPs cap hold of $17.1 mil then go over the cap to sign him to a max.

If we sign him first officially then he would have whatever he signs as his cap number.

Lance I'm not sure about but a bunch of sites list his contract as unguaranteed and only $1 mil cap hiy

You think we'll wait until after the season to extend KP? After that injury he's going to want to sign as soon as possible and we'll sign him as soon as possible.

Im not sure. It could go either way. Knicks have control. At this point I'm not sure '19 is a good option anyway (thanks Timmy ) so wouldn't mind just locking him up