OT: NFL 24-25 Thread Cont'd

[Deeeez Knicks]

Agreed loyalty can't outweigh common sense.

Blank slate.

New GM...that GM picks his HC

That GM/HC align on the QB for the future.

They start a rebuild.

That will keep the fans off Mara's neck...any other process they will be out for blood and could get really choppy or ugly because the process will not be streamlined. Old GM with new HC...with new QB...then if that doesn't work new GM inherits old coach and old QB...the timeline doesn't make sense.

If we weren’t in position to draft our QB then maybe you give him another shot. But we are in unique position to start from scratch. We can’t f this up or it’ll be another big set back. Schoen has simply made too many mistakes, whether he had excuses or not. Fair or not fair, it’s a prestigious position. Can’t afford to just give a position like this all the time in the world. If you F up, then time to move on.

schoen's had 3 years to give whichever QB we draft in the upcoming draft a good situation to be in to be successful and he hasn't even done that. he hasn't earned the opportunity to get a shot imo

Dude took over an awful roster and somehow made it worse. I don’t even know how that is possible.

We spent the most money in free agency and traded picks last offseason….and still ended up as the worst team in the league

Fire everyone!!

[GONYK]

eh, we can certainly evaluate defense on teams that don't have a QB. we can also say with certainty that evan neal was a bust. really it's just the receivers/te and whoever the coach that's calling the plays that have a difficult eval. this team is definitely bad and is lacking significantly in talent

The defense was looking pretty solid through the middle games of the season though. They were just on the field the whole game. The bottom has definitely fallen out recently though.

If we were putting up 24+ PPG, the defense would not have held us back when they were playing their best.

solid as in.. middle of the pack at best? we have a couple of pieces on the defensive line that we can build off of but even then our run defense was nasty bad all season

also the defense was setting records for lack of INT's and turnovers...they were playing bend but don't break and the Giants were playing a TOP game on offense which limited possessions....I don't think the Giants defense played well at all. Especially with what we have invested in the front 7.

Through 6 games the defense was 9th in points allowed, 10th in yards allowed and led the league in sacks.

Like I said, that was solid production. By comparison, that would put the defense around where Green Bay's is.

They weren't the reason we were losing games for the first half of the season.

[mpharris36]

The defense was looking pretty solid through the middle games of the season though. They were just on the field the whole game. The bottom has definitely fallen out recently though.

If we were putting up 24+ PPG, the defense would not have held us back when they were playing their best.

solid as in.. middle of the pack at best? we have a couple of pieces on the defensive line that we can build off of but even then our run defense was nasty bad all season

also the defense was setting records for lack of INT's and turnovers...they were playing bend but don't break and the Giants were playing a TOP game on offense which limited possessions....I don't think the Giants defense played well at all. Especially with what we have invested in the front 7.

Through 6 games the defense was 9th in points allowed, 10th in yards allowed and led the league in sacks.

Like I said, that was solid production. By comparison, that would put the defense around where Green Bay's is.

They weren't the reason we were losing games for the first half of the season.

they should be in the top 10 in sacks. they have enough invested for that.

I'm not really into points allowed and yards allowed. The Giants absolutely had a worse offense but they didn't have nearly invested in the offense what they did in the defense.

I just can't remember the defense ever making a big play or getting a big stop when needed. Maybe the overall numbers looked ok but I think that was just a product of the slow pace game were were playing offensively. Also a defense that doesn't force turnovers is not good IMO.

[Ghetto Gospel]

The defense was looking pretty solid through the middle games of the season though. They were just on the field the whole game. The bottom has definitely fallen out recently though.

If we were putting up 24+ PPG, the defense would not have held us back when they were playing their best.

solid as in.. middle of the pack at best? we have a couple of pieces on the defensive line that we can build off of but even then our run defense was nasty bad all season

also the defense was setting records for lack of INT's and turnovers...they were playing bend but don't break and the Giants were playing a TOP game on offense which limited possessions....I don't think the Giants defense played well at all. Especially with what we have invested in the front 7.

Through 6 games the defense was 9th in points allowed, 10th in yards allowed and led the league in sacks.

Like I said, that was solid production. By comparison, that would put the defense around where Green Bay's is.

They weren't the reason we were losing games for the first half of the season.

through 6 games is an awfully cherry-picked number. pre dexter lawrence's injury is a pretty good barometer for me

[GONYK]

solid as in.. middle of the pack at best? we have a couple of pieces on the defensive line that we can build off of but even then our run defense was nasty bad all season

also the defense was setting records for lack of INT's and turnovers...they were playing bend but don't break and the Giants were playing a TOP game on offense which limited possessions....I don't think the Giants defense played well at all. Especially with what we have invested in the front 7.

Through 6 games the defense was 9th in points allowed, 10th in yards allowed and led the league in sacks.

Like I said, that was solid production. By comparison, that would put the defense around where Green Bay's is.

They weren't the reason we were losing games for the first half of the season.

they should be in the top 10 in sacks. they have enough invested for that.

I'm not really into points allowed and yards allowed. The Giants absolutely had a worse offense but they didn't have nearly invested in the offense what they did in the defense.

I just can't remember the defense ever making a big play or getting a big stop when needed. Maybe the overall numbers looked ok but I think that was just a product of the slow pace game were were playing offensively. Also a defense that doesn't force turnovers is not good IMO.

I didn't say it was a SuperBowl defense. I said it was solid.

[GONYK]

solid as in.. middle of the pack at best? we have a couple of pieces on the defensive line that we can build off of but even then our run defense was nasty bad all season

also the defense was setting records for lack of INT's and turnovers...they were playing bend but don't break and the Giants were playing a TOP game on offense which limited possessions....I don't think the Giants defense played well at all. Especially with what we have invested in the front 7.

Through 6 games the defense was 9th in points allowed, 10th in yards allowed and led the league in sacks.

Like I said, that was solid production. By comparison, that would put the defense around where Green Bay's is.

They weren't the reason we were losing games for the first half of the season.

through 6 games is an awfully cherry-picked number. pre dexter lawrence's injury is a pretty good barometer for me

Not really cherry picked. Just referencing the time period I was referring to. Everyone is in agreement that their production has declined as the season went on.

[Ghetto Gospel]

Through 6 games the defense was 9th in points allowed, 10th in yards allowed and led the league in sacks.

Like I said, that was solid production. By comparison, that would put the defense around where Green Bay's is.

They weren't the reason we were losing games for the first half of the season.

through 6 games is an awfully cherry-picked number. pre dexter lawrence's injury is a pretty good barometer for me

Not really cherry picked. Just referencing the time period I was referring to. Everyone is in agreement that their production has declined as the season went on.

but what's the reason for the decline in production? 6 games is a small sample and there's no reason for the decline after the 6th game. it isn't because the offense couldn't stay on the field wearing out the defense. we've won the time of possession game more often than not this season and in our first 10 games, we possessed the ball for longer 8 times.

imo, we just had a decent string of games to start the season but ultimately the defense regressed to the actual level of defensive talent. not good

[Deeeez Knicks]

Dexter Lawerence was/is a beast, but another all pro type that Schoen inherited.

[GONYK]

through 6 games is an awfully cherry-picked number. pre dexter lawrence's injury is a pretty good barometer for me

Not really cherry picked. Just referencing the time period I was referring to. Everyone is in agreement that their production has declined as the season went on.

but what's the reason for the decline in production? 6 games is a small sample and there's no reason for the decline after the 6th game. it isn't because the offense couldn't stay on the field wearing out the defense. we've won the time of possession game more often than not this season and in our first 10 games, we possessed the ball for longer 8 times.

imo, we just had a decent string of games to start the season but ultimately the defense regressed to the actual level of defensive talent. not good

No clear idea. KT's injury is the biggest thing that comes to mind. Dru Phillips around that time too.

But I always said that Bowen's run fits were bad, but we were getting outsized production from the pass-rush to compensate. Once we lost KT and Azeez cooled off, teams just waited until Dex was getting a breather and would gash us. Lack of depth at DT was certainly a factor, but a lot of it is preparation.

I think Bowen should, and probably will be, fired but I think there's enough there on the defensive personnel side to have a solid, middle of the pack, type defense to build on top of.

[Ghetto Gospel]

Not really cherry picked. Just referencing the time period I was referring to. Everyone is in agreement that their production has declined as the season went on.

but what's the reason for the decline in production? 6 games is a small sample and there's no reason for the decline after the 6th game. it isn't because the offense couldn't stay on the field wearing out the defense. we've won the time of possession game more often than not this season and in our first 10 games, we possessed the ball for longer 8 times.

imo, we just had a decent string of games to start the season but ultimately the defense regressed to the actual level of defensive talent. not good

No clear idea. KT's injury is the biggest thing that comes to mind. Dru Phillips around that time too.

But I always said that Bowen's run fits were bad, but we were getting outsized production from the pass-rush to compensate. Once we lost KT and Azeez cooled off, teams just waited until Dex was getting a breather and would gash us. Lack of depth at DT was certainly a factor, but a lot of it is preparation.

I think Bowen should, and probably will be, fired but I think there's enough there on the defensive personnel side to have a solid, middle of the pack, type defense to build on top of.

when both thibodeaux and phillips came back, the defense was still poor though so i don't buy the injuries of those 2 being the sole reason we fell off. i think ojulari even outperformed KT and didn't really fall until he got injured again which was right around the time KT came back anyway.

i disagree, we have 2 pieces in dexter lawrence and brian burns. i think andru phillips can be a good slot corner. the rest of the defense is full of JAGs unless they can take big steps forward next year

[Ghetto Gospel]

brian daboll can go too. we can't keep giving him credit for josh allen when josh allen is having the best season of his career without him and without a clear WR1.

joe schoen is obviously priority #1 in terms of who needs to go though

[GONYK]

but what's the reason for the decline in production? 6 games is a small sample and there's no reason for the decline after the 6th game. it isn't because the offense couldn't stay on the field wearing out the defense. we've won the time of possession game more often than not this season and in our first 10 games, we possessed the ball for longer 8 times.

imo, we just had a decent string of games to start the season but ultimately the defense regressed to the actual level of defensive talent. not good

No clear idea. KT's injury is the biggest thing that comes to mind. Dru Phillips around that time too.

But I always said that Bowen's run fits were bad, but we were getting outsized production from the pass-rush to compensate. Once we lost KT and Azeez cooled off, teams just waited until Dex was getting a breather and would gash us. Lack of depth at DT was certainly a factor, but a lot of it is preparation.

I think Bowen should, and probably will be, fired but I think there's enough there on the defensive personnel side to have a solid, middle of the pack, type defense to build on top of.

when both thibodeaux and phillips came back, the defense was still poor though so i don't buy the injuries of those 2 being the sole reason we fell off. i think ojulari even outperformed KT and didn't really fall until he got injured again which was right around the time KT came back anyway.

i disagree, we have 2 pieces in dexter lawrence and brian burns. i think andru phillips can be a good slot corner. the rest of the defense is full of JAGs unless they can take big steps forward next year

You're definitely more down on the defense than I am.

I think

Dex
Burns
Okereke
KT
Banks (as a 2, though his motor is under question)
Phillips
Nubin

Are all better than JAGs.

[Deeeez Knicks]

Daboll def needs to go just based on time management, play calling and the team looking very unprepared most of the time. Fire him based on this play alone. Every time we try to run a play like that it gets completely botched. Just embarrassing

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[Ghetto Gospel]

No clear idea. KT's injury is the biggest thing that comes to mind. Dru Phillips around that time too.

But I always said that Bowen's run fits were bad, but we were getting outsized production from the pass-rush to compensate. Once we lost KT and Azeez cooled off, teams just waited until Dex was getting a breather and would gash us. Lack of depth at DT was certainly a factor, but a lot of it is preparation.

I think Bowen should, and probably will be, fired but I think there's enough there on the defensive personnel side to have a solid, middle of the pack, type defense to build on top of.

when both thibodeaux and phillips came back, the defense was still poor though so i don't buy the injuries of those 2 being the sole reason we fell off. i think ojulari even outperformed KT and didn't really fall until he got injured again which was right around the time KT came back anyway.

i disagree, we have 2 pieces in dexter lawrence and brian burns. i think andru phillips can be a good slot corner. the rest of the defense is full of JAGs unless they can take big steps forward next year

You're definitely more down on the defense than I am.

I think

Dex
Burns
KT
Banks (as a 2, though his motor is under question)
Phillips
Nubin

Are all better than JAGs.

KT - kind of buns, i don't think he's even an average edge in this league. he got some sacks year 2, but i think he's basically vic beasley 2.0. just random sack outlier season for 1 year then back into the trash chute
Banks - i dont think he's on this team for much longer lol. he's already drawn the ire of coaches and teammates and i'm not sure he's going to recover from this. he's not a great #2 either though i guess he could be, certainly has the talent and athleticism to be it, but he needs to take a big step
Nubin - perhaps, i think he was a JAG this year. coming out of the draft, given his combine numbers i saw him as a low ceiling, decent floor kind of guy. perhaps he proves me wrong and takes a step.

[MrDollarBills]

they did a list of the giants top 10 players and its pretty stark looking at the Giants compared to other teams.

1. Dexter Lawerence
2. Andrew Thomas
3. Malik Nabers
4. Brian Burns
5. Bobby Okereke (bad year)
6. Kayvon Thibodeaux
7. Darius Slayton
8. Jermaine Eluemunor
9. Tyrone Tracy
10. Wandale Robinson

How many guys crack the list from 3 Schoen draft classes (you could maybe make a case Dru Phillips could be a good slot corner). Nabers seemed like a no brainer...Thibs has been ok but far from impact from a top 5 pick. Tracy has shown some nice things. And Wandale is an ok slot WR but nothing special.

But you are missing Neal, Ezuedu, Bellinger, Flott, Banks, JMS, Hyatt

And the two best players on the Giants by far aren't even Schoen doing. And Gettleman was an awful GM as well.

this top 10 doesn't look good at all

andrew thomas is concerning given his recent injuries. i also recall at the time the reason he signed his extension so fast was that he wanted to get it done quickly because he was concerned about all of his injuries and wanted to guarantee the money.

tyrone tracy is nice if you ignore his fumble issues.

wandale robinson is basically that short, quicker than fast white receiver that every other team drafts in the 6th round but for whatever reason schoen decided to reach for in the 2nd

not only are the best players from gettleman, but this team got worse under joe schoen than it ever was under gettleman.

This is where Schoen has failed. Daniel Jones was a top down organizational decision. But all these useless picks are all on Schoen.

Skinner brought up a great point: Instead of going for talent and BPA, Schoen was drafting for need and it blew up in his face.

There were posters on here who balked at the Wandale selection and they were right. I don't like the fact that people in this thread have a greater sense of talent and foresight than our f*cking GM who gets paid out the ass to make these decisions.

[MrDollarBills]

No clear idea. KT's injury is the biggest thing that comes to mind. Dru Phillips around that time too.

But I always said that Bowen's run fits were bad, but we were getting outsized production from the pass-rush to compensate. Once we lost KT and Azeez cooled off, teams just waited until Dex was getting a breather and would gash us. Lack of depth at DT was certainly a factor, but a lot of it is preparation.

I think Bowen should, and probably will be, fired but I think there's enough there on the defensive personnel side to have a solid, middle of the pack, type defense to build on top of.

when both thibodeaux and phillips came back, the defense was still poor though so i don't buy the injuries of those 2 being the sole reason we fell off. i think ojulari even outperformed KT and didn't really fall until he got injured again which was right around the time KT came back anyway.

i disagree, we have 2 pieces in dexter lawrence and brian burns. i think andru phillips can be a good slot corner. the rest of the defense is full of JAGs unless they can take big steps forward next year

You're definitely more down on the defense than I am.

I think

Dex
Burns
KT
Banks (as a 2, though his motor is under question)
Phillips
Nubin

Are all better than JAGs.

I agree with every one except for Banks and Kayvon. Based on his draft position and performance, he's a bust. We wanted a stud EDGE and we got a guy that is a average player at best that has no moves in his bag and hasn't improved at all from Year 1.

Banks is a bust.

Which brings me to another point: player development.

How many players have we developed well under this regime? No one has improved. Why is that?

Sigh.

[Ghetto Gospel]

when both thibodeaux and phillips came back, the defense was still poor though so i don't buy the injuries of those 2 being the sole reason we fell off. i think ojulari even outperformed KT and didn't really fall until he got injured again which was right around the time KT came back anyway.

i disagree, we have 2 pieces in dexter lawrence and brian burns. i think andru phillips can be a good slot corner. the rest of the defense is full of JAGs unless they can take big steps forward next year

You're definitely more down on the defense than I am.

I think

Dex
Burns
KT
Banks (as a 2, though his motor is under question)
Phillips
Nubin

Are all better than JAGs.

I agree with every one except for Banks and Kayvon. Based on his draft position and performance, he's a bust. We wanted a stud EDGE and we got a guy that is a average player at best that has no moves in his bag and hasn't improved at all from Year 1.

Banks is a bust.

Which brings me to another point: player development.

How many players have we developed well under this regime? No one has improved. Why is that?

Sigh.

could also just be poor drafting. hard to tell

[GONYK]

when both thibodeaux and phillips came back, the defense was still poor though so i don't buy the injuries of those 2 being the sole reason we fell off. i think ojulari even outperformed KT and didn't really fall until he got injured again which was right around the time KT came back anyway.

i disagree, we have 2 pieces in dexter lawrence and brian burns. i think andru phillips can be a good slot corner. the rest of the defense is full of JAGs unless they can take big steps forward next year

You're definitely more down on the defense than I am.

I think

Dex
Burns
KT
Banks (as a 2, though his motor is under question)
Phillips
Nubin

Are all better than JAGs.

I agree with every one except for Banks and Kayvon. Based on his draft position and performance, he's a bust. We wanted a stud EDGE and we got a guy that is a average player at best that has no moves in his bag and hasn't improved at all from Year 1.

Banks is a bust.

Which brings me to another point: player development.

How many players have we developed well under this regime? No one has improved. Why is that?

Sigh.

I don't think either of them are busts just because they aren't pro-bowl studs. They are both NFL starters. We ran some real talent out of town because players were good, but not as good as everyone expected to be.

Like I said, I am very wary of the overall ecosystem and it is hard to judge individuals within it when they aren't transcendent talents like Dex or Nabers.

But looking at players like Love, Leo Williams, McKinney, Will Hernandez, Engram, etc... the talent is there. What about our organization limited the production of our talent?

[MrDollarBills]

You're definitely more down on the defense than I am.

I think

Dex
Burns
KT
Banks (as a 2, though his motor is under question)
Phillips
Nubin

Are all better than JAGs.

I agree with every one except for Banks and Kayvon. Based on his draft position and performance, he's a bust. We wanted a stud EDGE and we got a guy that is a average player at best that has no moves in his bag and hasn't improved at all from Year 1.

Banks is a bust.

Which brings me to another point: player development.

How many players have we developed well under this regime? No one has improved. Why is that?

Sigh.

I don't think either of them are busts just because they aren't pro-bowl studs. They are both NFL starters. We ran some real talent out of town because players were good, but not as good as everyone expected to be.

Like I said, I am very wary of the overall ecosystem and it is hard to judge individuals within it when they aren't transcendent talents like Dex or Nabers.

But looking at players like Love, Leo Williams, McKinney, Will Hernandez, Engram, etc... the talent is there. What about our organization limited the production of our talent?

You know what? That's 100% fair. I agree.

Why is it that guys become serviceable players once they leave here??

The one constant is us!!

[Ghetto Gospel]

You're definitely more down on the defense than I am.

I think

Dex
Burns
KT
Banks (as a 2, though his motor is under question)
Phillips
Nubin

Are all better than JAGs.

I agree with every one except for Banks and Kayvon. Based on his draft position and performance, he's a bust. We wanted a stud EDGE and we got a guy that is a average player at best that has no moves in his bag and hasn't improved at all from Year 1.

Banks is a bust.

Which brings me to another point: player development.

How many players have we developed well under this regime? No one has improved. Why is that?

Sigh.

I don't think either of them are busts just because they aren't pro-bowl studs. They are both NFL starters. We ran some real talent out of town because players were good, but not as good as everyone expected to be.

Like I said, I am very wary of the overall ecosystem and it is hard to judge individuals within it when they aren't transcendent talents like Dex or Nabers.

But looking at players like Love, Leo Williams, McKinney, Will Hernandez, Engram, etc... the talent is there. What about our organization limited the production of our talent?

leonard williams and mckinney were good players for us when they were here though. we don't get a 2nd rounder for leo and mckinney doesn't get a massive FA deal if opposing teams didn't see that.

the issue on defense was the weak pass rush, weak coverage and weak LB play (until okereke came along last year, though it's weak again). we were trotting jihad ward out there last season along with KT who didn't generate pressure or win on pass rushes consistently. among all 1st round edge picks in 2022, he had the weakest pass rush win rate and the generated the least pressures among all first round picks.

our corners have been a problem for a while now and also can't cover and those are the 2 most important pieces on defense

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