Cavs/Knicks/OKC in 3 Way Trade Talks (JR+SHUMP TRADED TO CLE)

[K_ick_God]

i said that was phil's plan before the season. once it went to sh*t he decided to adjust i guess.

you know what though, i hope for the best. i don't care about being right or wrong or anything. i just want the knicks to be good. i just don't feel great about all of this.

Isn't the bolded a huge positive in all this? To me it is. He wanted to try and rebuild on the fly, both team play and team dynamics, and it flat out didn't work. The players sucked both on-court and were not making meaningful strides "off" it. He recognized the need for a much deeper and more thorough cleanse, so he did something that the Knicks have never been known for: adjusted.

Changing the plan to ride it all the way to the bottom doesn't make me that upset, regardless of how the moves stack up over the past few months. Could they hurt, sure, but the net loss due to the adjustment is relatively minimal in the grand scheme.

godshamgod is mad that Phil was able to change his plans on the fly and prepare for next season. I would hate if the team was bad then the GM compound the situation by adding more bloated contracts to try to appease fans and get an 8th seed. But Phil didn't do that yet fans are irate?
Some people here have absolutely no logic.

Exactly, Phil didn't go so far into his "win in 2014-15" plan that he didn't have the flexibility to change course and go to 2015-16 mode. That's smart strategy. I don't care how Calderon has looked, or that Dalembert sucked. He had to try to compete. That failed but he didn't do it in a way that he was committing too far. His ankles are out of the water and he's back on dry land, regrouping for the next, much bigger stage.

His mind and strategy are there. Does that guarantee success? Absolutely not. I do think he'll need to get some steals for the Knicks to be really good soon -- those are hard to get no matter how sound the strategy being applied.

[R-DAWG]

Haven't we learned nothing from 2010. Your not going to attract stars if you don't have one. Trading Melo after gutting the team is ridiculous. We need Melo and always did. We just never put him in a winning situation because we are constantly robbing Peter to pay Paul. Now we are potentially looking at a 1st overall pick. Phil Jackson as a recruiter in NY. Melo shutting it down and resting for next year. 30+ million in cap space for one of the biggest free agent classes. We weren't going to win this year anyway. This is a smart move and move that this organization has avoided for years. I can't see a player some what intrigued to potentially play in NY with Phil, Melo, 1st overall pick, and 30 million in money to build a team in a weak eastern conference. That's pretty good plan honestly.

I think he's talking about a true rebuild. You take the young players you'd get for Anthony, add someone like Okafor and then sign someone like Butler or Dragic or whomever and you build from there. Yes, they won't have their own 1st round pick in 2016 but with young willing guys you can build for the future.

But you don't need to go through those growing pains with a young team because then you look at the Thunder. They had a young team and developed talent but now can't afford it. They have only kept kd and russ. They loss Harden and are going to lose Jackson. At least with Melo he's proven and now we are potentially in place to get a first pick. This is actually the best situation going forward. Knicks finally learned to press the reset button and start from level one. only think is now we have 100 lives to beat all 9 boards instead 3 lives year in year out.

Don't compare OKC and NYK's budgets. Say what you want about Dolan but he has never been shy about spending.

The concern with Melo is that by the time you have pieces around him to compete he might be on the decline. That's the counter argument. I understand why you wanted to keep him and I'm not saying I would have done a S/T. I'm just surprised the Knicks refused to talk about it.

[K_ick_God]

The Bulls rarely trade their picks. But they wasted plenty of them. Tyrus Thomas, Snell, Teague, James Johnson, very possibly McDermott. In a way Rose may end up being a wasted top pick because of lady luck. Done at age 24 would be a disaster, and after they gave him a big deal. They may be "forced" to also give Jimmy Butler a big deal and he is a guy who has just had one offensive year above decency (granted it's way above so far). Butler as a good defender and shaky scorer at $17M would be bad. He's not assured of staying James Harden on O. He could become Avery Bradley at $17M. In a way that too would be "good picks gone bad" in a PG kind of way.

How did the Bulls wasted their picks? Because those players didn't turn out to be perennial all-stars?

Because those players stink and don't contribute, and prevented them from getting much better players in the case of Tyrus Thomas and perhaps others. Had they dealt those picks for a Bargnani, it wouldn't have impacted their fortunes much at all. Those picks were essentially, as a net effect on the team/roster, tossed away. Which happens to every team. Except the Spurs

[ozwizard8]

Does anyone know what our exact cap space number is?

Melo...........$22,875,000.00
Calderon......$7,402,812.00
Cap Hold......$525,093
Cap Hold...... $525,093
Cole............$947,276.00
Hardaway......$1,304,520.00
Early............$845,059.00
Acy..............$1,181,348.00
Prigs (buyout)...$440,000.00
2015 Pick (#3 pick)..$3,689,700.00
Cap Hold..........$525,093
Cap Hold..........$525,093
Cap Hold.......$525,093

Total: ............$40,786,087.00
Projected cap: ...$66,500,000.00
Projected Space: ..$25,713,913.00

Not sure if Prigs buy counts as a roster hold but i included an extra one

we must send calderon away!
7.4m! he will be 35 years old.
he cant be starter pg for any team. he cant defend. we dont need him as mentor for 7.4m!
calderon isnt playing better than prigioni.

also acy's contract should be team option so dont count him. i wouldnt count cole aldrich too. maybe we can sign those for minimum after the FA period.

save 7.4m from calderon, dont accept team option for acy-aldrich would get us 10m more cap space.
we would have 35m cap space.

we can get 2 of those: dragic/butler/gasol/millsap.
or 3 of those ones: d.green/j.green/asik/r.jackson/matthews/r.lopez

dragic
butler
melo
MLE
towns/okafor

we can get PF from MLE. we would have TPE so we can get bad contracted PF or trading hardaway with tpe to get legit PF. its win now squad. i doubt if we can acquire butler.
***
r.jackson
matthews
melo
d.green
towns okafor

it looks mediocre but if we surround melo with good team its not hard to get ECF. r.jackson/d.green/towns would promising for future too.
***
anyway we must get rid of calderon!
he disturbs 2015 FA + 2016 FA

[PMFJB]

I keep playing with this and it keeps making the Knicks fall to 4th!! Phil's plan is ruined!!!

http://www.tankathon.com/

[Deeeez Knicks]

Isn't the bolded a huge positive in all this? To me it is. He wanted to try and rebuild on the fly, both team play and team dynamics, and it flat out didn't work. The players sucked both on-court and were not making meaningful strides "off" it. He recognized the need for a much deeper and more thorough cleanse, so he did something that the Knicks have never been known for: adjusted.

Changing the plan to ride it all the way to the bottom doesn't make me that upset, regardless of how the moves stack up over the past few months. Could they hurt, sure, but the net loss due to the adjustment is relatively minimal in the grand scheme.

godshamgod is mad that Phil was able to change his plans on the fly and prepare for next season. I would hate if the team was bad then the GM compound the situation by adding more bloated contracts to try to appease fans and get an 8th seed. But Phil didn't do that yet fans are irate?
Some people here have absolutely no logic.

Exactly, Phil didn't go so far into his "win in 2014-15" plan that he didn't have the flexibility to change course and go to 2015-16 mode. That's smart strategy. I don't care how Calderon has looked, or that Dalembert sucked. He had to try to compete. That failed but he didn't do it in a way that he was committing too far. His ankles are out of the water and he's back on dry land, regrouping for the next, much bigger stage.

His mind and strategy are there. Does that guarantee success? Absolutely not. I do think he'll need to get some steals for the Knicks to be really good soon -- those are hard to get no matter how sound the strategy being applied.

And here I thought Phils ego and stubborness was too great for him to admit something was not working and change for the better. Its a good thing that Phil is a lot more flexible then people would have us believe

[Jeffrey]

If Phil strikes out in free agency, (and by striking out I dont mean not netting us that golden goose egg of an agent (LMA, MG, etc) but not netting some other fit at a decent price) then he stocks up on young talent as he has been doing, and goes to bat again the following season) The difference between last year and this year is that now he can truly say that we are developing instead of catching the lot of you with this "compete now" double speak that all GMs do. The shine next year will be that we have the main cog on the roster (Melo) and an unbelievable draft pick (whoever it may be) plus some young assets on his side.

Most GMs will spend all of the available cap if they have that much space. The only team that did that was the Mavs. Cuban didn't get any of the superstars, so he just opted for short term contracts and then went for it with Chandler Parson. I don't see the Knicks doing that. Not many teams in NBA history that will have a.) franchise player b.) top 3 pick c.) 2 max contracts to spend in an offseason. This will be Phil jackson most important offseason and he needs to hit a homerun. If not, we are stuck with ugly contracts and have to start all over again in 4 years.

[ORANGEandBLUE]

Exactly, Phil didn't go so far into his "win in 2014-15" plan that he didn't have the flexibility to change course and go to 2015-16 mode. That's smart strategy. I don't care how Calderon has looked, or that Dalembert sucked. He had to try to compete. That failed but he didn't do it in a way that he was committing too far. His ankles are out of the water and he's back on dry land, regrouping for the next, much bigger stage.

His mind and strategy are there. Does that guarantee success? Absolutely not. I do think he'll need to get some steals for the Knicks to be really good soon -- those are hard to get no matter how sound the strategy being applied.

Perfect example of FLEXIBILITY that people are always clamoring for. And of course, the criticism is basically that he's not hedging hard enough towards winning now or tanking.... that he's not being INFLEXIBLE enough. I would have liked to sign and trade Melo and do a full rebuild, but that was not an option for Dolan.

[god shammgod]

phil is getting congratulated for recognizing the team sucks after the fact ? he has no choice but to tank now because it's the only way to salvage the season.

[Capn'O]

As for the stretch provisioners **** on the trade because we have Calderon, can't we do the same with him? Or was that provision only made for the JRs of the world?

It wouldn't be wise to stretch him before this summer as you're stretching out two years of salary. Next summer it's a possibility. I also think Calderon will be easier to move, if need be. He's a heady player, who could bring experience to a young team in need of stability and leadership. Which is also why he might play out the season here.

[Sprewell4Three]

Does anyone know what our exact cap space number is?

Melo...........$22,875,000.00
Calderon......$7,402,812.00
Cap Hold......$525,093
Cap Hold...... $525,093
Cole............$947,276.00
Hardaway......$1,304,520.00
Early............$845,059.00
Acy..............$1,181,348.00
Prigs (buyout)...$440,000.00
2015 Pick (#3 pick)..$3,689,700.00
Cap Hold..........$525,093
Cap Hold..........$525,093
Cap Hold.......$525,093

Total: ............$40,786,087.00
Projected cap: ...$66,500,000.00
Projected Space: ..$25,713,913.00

Not sure if Prigs buy counts as a roster hold but i included an extra one

we must send calderon away!
7.4m! he will be 35 years old.
he cant be starter pg for any team. he cant defend. we dont need him as mentor for 7.4m!
calderon isnt playing better than prigioni.

also acy's contract should be team option so dont count him. i wouldnt count cole aldrich too. maybe we can sign those for minimum after the FA period.

save 7.4m from calderon, dont accept team option for acy-aldrich would get us 10m more cap space.
we would have 35m cap space.

we can get 2 of those: dragic/butler/gasol/millsap.
or 3 of those ones: d.green/j.green/asik/r.jackson/matthews/r.lopez

dragic
butler
melo
MLE
towns/okafor

we can get PF from MLE. we would have TPE so we can get bad contracted PF or trading hardaway with tpe to get legit PF. its win now squad. i doubt if we can acquire butler.
***
r.jackson
matthews
melo
d.green
towns okafor

it looks mediocre but if we surround melo with good team its not hard to get ECF. r.jackson/d.green/towns would promising for future too.
***
anyway we must get rid of calderon!
he disturbs 2015 FA + 2016 FA

I swear some of you guys have no patience. Calm down, dude. Phil could possibly be on the phones looking to trade Calderon, we don't know that. Let the process play out. Stop acting like FA starts tomorrow and we need to get rid of Calderon or we'll miss out on signing a free agent. I don't know where this desperate mentality come from? We're only 30 games in people. There's bound to be more moves on the horizon.

[HarthorneWingo]

Could we do Dragic, Wes Matthews, Thad Young, Afflalo and R. Lopez with the cap space we anticipate having (assume that we can trade Calderon for an expiring)?

Melo
Thad Young
R. Lopez
Matthews
Dragic

And what kind of money are you doling out for them?

Whatever price you think you can get Robin Lopez for, add 2 million dollars just because he is a 7 footer.

I guess that's what I don't know. I'm just following Howard Beck's plan and adding Dragic and replacing Afflalo with Matthews. The way Beck had it mapped out, we could do Lopez, Afflalo and Young and still have some room to fill out the roster.

Under The Beck Plan. we sign

1. R. Lopez for $9M per;

2. Afflalo for $8M per; and

3. Thad Young for around $8-9M per.

We'd have to make other moves to clear out space to sign Dragic.

[K_ick_God]

Why does it matter whether you trade a pick or just use it on someone bad?

Knicks wasted a pick on Bargs, that much is very clear, but they also wasted a pick on lots of guys whom they drafted. Is there a difference really? Not so much.

The Bulls rarely trade their picks. But they wasted plenty of them. Tyrus Thomas, Snell, Teague, James Johnson, very possibly McDermott. In a way Rose may end up being a wasted top pick because of lady luck. Done at age 24 would be a disaster, and after they gave him a big deal. They may be "forced" to also give Jimmy Butler a big deal and he is a guy who has just had one offensive year above decency (granted it's way above so far). Butler as a good defender and shaky scorer at $17M would be bad. He's not assured of staying James Harden on O. He could become Avery Bradley at $17M. In a way that too would be "good picks gone bad" in a PG kind of way.

What I'm saying is it's hit & miss. Just accept that. We may swing and miss this year too with a top 4 pick and you can blame Phil -- and you will blame Phil -- but it's kind of like blaming a couple of dice.

Someone explain the double standards and uncritical thinking running rampant. Actually don't.

I don't know how it's gotten to this point where Knicks fans want our GM to make perfect trades each and every time? I mean, GMs all around the league make moves that don't work out. Why is it that all of a sudden Knicks fans have this brovado that they expect excellence in each an every transaction? I can understand if we're the Spurs but we're not. This team has gone damn near 15years being a POS but yet there's fans that talk with their chests in the air. Seriously I just laugh at some of these m'fers on this board.

It could be the opposite -- BFS has caused us to expect some things going wrong at the start to snowball into a disaster. And we are bottoming out here. Worse than ever. Many fans are just happy with having some decent wins here and there. That's kind of the secret goal in the back of the fan's mind, at least many fans.

[Sprewell4Three]

phil is getting congratulated for recognizing the team sucks after the fact ? he has no choice but to tank now because it's the only way to salvage the season.

Stop it because if he didn't recognize that fact and started bringing contracts to appease you and try to get an 8th seed, you would still complain.

[Anotha Knicks fan]

As for the stretch provisioners **** on the trade because we have Calderon, can't we do the same with him? Or was that provision only made for the JRs of the world?

It wouldn't be wise to stretch him before this summer as you're stretching out two years of salary. Next summer it's a possibility. I also think Calderon will be easier to move, if need be. He's a heady player, who could bring experience to a young team in need of stability and leadership. Which is also why he might play out the season here.

So what you're telling me here is that we have options... he can either pan out, and play the way Phil and co want, and we keep him to mold the future (whatever that is) or we could stretch him, and save some money? or worse case scenario, he hoodwinks Phil and co this season and reverts to a pile of ish, and is then stretched next year, at a cost? How much is that cost? Like what is the difference? and how much of a difference will that make in the offseason it affects? Is that not the offseason that every team gains like a million bazillion dollars for cap purposes due to the tv deals? I mean, I'm just asking.

*editted to be even more facetious

[god shammgod]

phil is getting congratulated for recognizing the team sucks after the fact ? he has no choice but to tank now because it's the only way to salvage the season.

Stop it because if he didn't recognize that fact and started bringing contracts to appease you and try to get an 8th seed, you would still complain.

i don't want an 8th seed and i don't want to add long term salary. i gave up on this season a month ago. stop trying to think you know what i want. and your obsession with me is weird. you're a creepy motherf*cker.

[K_ick_God]

phil is getting congratulated for recognizing the team sucks after the fact ? he has no choice but to tank now because it's the only way to salvage the season.

He's being congratulated for having a reasonable two-pronged approach of trying to compete this year but mostly preserving 2015/16, and having not gone too far into this year that he couldn't pull back and reset. And for clearing out two terrible players in Felton and JR.

But no, Phil hasn't made any great moves or gotten great value. Nobody is saying that yet.

We also don't know whether Melo might've left if not for him adding somebody better than Felton. Tyson was awful too and I think he is basically a poor starting center at this stage.

[Fat Kat]

Why does it matter whether you trade a pick or just use it on someone bad?

Knicks wasted a pick on Bargs, that much is very clear, but they also wasted a pick on lots of guys whom they drafted. Is there a difference really? Not so much.

The Bulls rarely trade their picks. But they wasted plenty of them. Tyrus Thomas, Snell, Teague, James Johnson, very possibly McDermott. In a way Rose may end up being a wasted top pick because of lady luck. Done at age 26/27 would be a disaster, and after they gave him a big deal. They may be "forced" to also give Jimmy Butler a big deal and he is a guy who has just had one offensive year above decency (granted it's way above so far). Butler as a good defender and shaky scorer at $17M would be bad. He's not assured of staying James Harden on O. He could become Avery Bradley at $17M. In a way that too would be "good picks gone bad" in a PG kind of way.

What I'm saying is it's hit & miss. Just accept that. We may swing and miss this year too with a top 4 pick and you can blame Phil -- and you will blame Phil -- but it's kind of like blaming a couple of dice.

Someone explain the double standards and uncritical thinking running rampant. Actually don't.

Picks are the currency of hope. They keep the fanbase engaged. Minny fans cling to this kind of hope. You pick a guy, make comparisons to great players, and argue about upside and potential. Some like doing this more than actually watching the games.

[ORANGEandBLUE]

phil is getting congratulated for recognizing the team sucks after the fact ? he has no choice but to tank now because it's the only way to salvage the season.

Many people predicted he would make a panic trade, perhaps dangling an unprotected 2018 pick. So there's that.

[K_ick_God]

Why does it matter whether you trade a pick or just use it on someone bad?

Knicks wasted a pick on Bargs, that much is very clear, but they also wasted a pick on lots of guys whom they drafted. Is there a difference really? Not so much.

The Bulls rarely trade their picks. But they wasted plenty of them. Tyrus Thomas, Snell, Teague, James Johnson, very possibly McDermott. In a way Rose may end up being a wasted top pick because of lady luck. Done at age 26/27 would be a disaster, and after they gave him a big deal. They may be "forced" to also give Jimmy Butler a big deal and he is a guy who has just had one offensive year above decency (granted it's way above so far). Butler as a good defender and shaky scorer at $17M would be bad. He's not assured of staying James Harden on O. He could become Avery Bradley at $17M. In a way that too would be "good picks gone bad" in a PG kind of way.

What I'm saying is it's hit & miss. Just accept that. We may swing and miss this year too with a top 4 pick and you can blame Phil -- and you will blame Phil -- but it's kind of like blaming a couple of dice.

Someone explain the double standards and uncritical thinking running rampant. Actually don't.

Picks are the currency of hope. They keep the fanbase engaged. Minny fans cling to this kind of hope. You pick a guy, make comparisons to great players, and argue about upside and potential. Some like doing this more than actually watching the games.

100% agree but if we look back on picks, they're a major gamble. Almost every GM has a hit & miss record. In fact the top 1st pick in the draft looks 50-50. So they give us hope and that's cool. Analytically, a lot end in nothing much or outright waste.