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OT: Democratic Primary Thread

Moderators: Deeeez Knicks, mpharris36, j4remi, NoLayupRule, HerSports85, GONYK, Jeff Van Gully, dakomish23

Who are you voting for?

Poll ended at Sat Mar 14, 2020 11:48 pm

Joe Biden - I have no idea why, and I also forgot what year it is
18
28%
Bernie Sanders - I am an intelligent human being, and understand Sanders is our last hope and America needs him
38
58%
Tulsi Gabbard (Dropped Out) - Ringo Starr is also my favorite Beatle
9
14%
 
Total votes: 65

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Re: OT: Democratic Primary Thread 

Post#1641 » by machu46 » Wed Jun 24, 2020 10:53 pm

HarthorneWingo wrote:
blanko wrote:Biden is up 12 pts in most polls.
The dems just need to keep him hidden until the election to win. Dont let him do interviews.

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Wasn't Hillary up by close to the same in '16?


According to the archived version of 538's 2016 coverage, their national polling average had Hillary up 42.9% - 36.5% (net of 6.4%) compared to the current 50.9% - 41.3% (net of 9.6%, and maybe more importantly, Biden already being above 50%). Hillary peaked at 46.0%, so Biden is already comfortably past her in that regard.
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Re: OT: Democratic Primary Thread 

Post#1642 » by Stannis » Thu Jun 25, 2020 12:20 am

machu46 wrote:
HarthorneWingo wrote:
blanko wrote:Biden is up 12 pts in most polls.
The dems just need to keep him hidden until the election to win. Dont let him do interviews.

Sent from my SM-N960N using Tapatalk


Wasn't Hillary up by close to the same in '16?


According to the archived version of 538's 2016 coverage, their national polling average had Hillary up 42.9% - 36.5% (net of 6.4%) compared to the current 50.9% - 41.3% (net of 9.6%, and maybe more importantly, Biden already being above 50%). Hillary peaked at 46.0%, so Biden is already comfortably past her in that regard.

They need to make voters feel uncomfortable. Last thing the dems need is voters staying home because they think they got this in the bag.
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Re: OT: Democratic Primary Thread 

Post#1643 » by HarthorneWingo » Thu Jun 25, 2020 12:57 am

machu46 wrote:
HarthorneWingo wrote:
blanko wrote:Biden is up 12 pts in most polls.
The dems just need to keep him hidden until the election to win. Dont let him do interviews.

Sent from my SM-N960N using Tapatalk


Wasn't Hillary up by close to the same in '16?


According to the archived version of 538's 2016 coverage, their national polling average had Hillary up 42.9% - 36.5% (net of 6.4%) compared to the current 50.9% - 41.3% (net of 9.6%, and maybe more importantly, Biden already being above 50%). Hillary peaked at 46.0%, so Biden is already comfortably past her in that regard.


That's not what I would call a "comfortable lead" by any stretch.
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Re: OT: Democratic Primary Thread 

Post#1644 » by Rich Rane » Thu Jun 25, 2020 1:36 am

HarthorneWingo wrote:
machu46 wrote:
HarthorneWingo wrote:
Wasn't Hillary up by close to the same in '16?


According to the archived version of 538's 2016 coverage, their national polling average had Hillary up 42.9% - 36.5% (net of 6.4%) compared to the current 50.9% - 41.3% (net of 9.6%, and maybe more importantly, Biden already being above 50%). Hillary peaked at 46.0%, so Biden is already comfortably past her in that regard.


That's not what I would call a "comfortable lead" by any stretch.


Well just to add some context, Obama defeated Romney by only a 4% margin of the popular vote and defeated McCain by 7% and I'm not quite sure anyone said those elections were in doubt for Obama. Yes, Hillary Clinton had a margin of 2%, but it was really the less than 80,000 voters in Pennsylvania, Michigan, and Wisconsin that lost her the election. So "comfortable lead" nationally for Biden, but of course in general elections, it always comes down to a few states.

All that said, yes, keep up the pressure. November is still so far away. Let angry and disgruntled Republicans like The Lincoln Project continue to use GOP candidates' words, actions, and inactions against them. GOP needs to not only lose the White House, but the Senate as well along with losing more House seats.
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Re: OT: Democratic Primary Thread 

Post#1645 » by GONYK » Thu Jun 25, 2020 1:55 am

Biden is currently enjoying a bigger polling lead than Hillary or Obama had at any point in any of their elections.

Not bad for a guy with "enthusiasm issues".

Let's hope everyone can keep this anti-Trump energy up until November.
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Re: OT: Democratic Primary Thread 

Post#1646 » by Pointgod » Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:42 am

j4remi wrote:
Pointgod wrote:
j4remi wrote:
The problem I have with this general white flag waving and malaise is that the same attitude pops up when we have really important elections; like governor races in Georgia and Florida last time around. So while the trajectory of those states changes and power becomes more entrenched; we get the same general “well it’s not our fault, we can’t do anything about it” approach.

You’ve seen me say it enough in this thread that I feel like it’s probably annoying but voter suppression in November is the biggest threat to Biden winning imo. And while they might not be able to do something major about it; calling attention to the repeated mishaps and making sure everyone is aware this is happening would be a nice way to raise some hell. At minimum it would help avoid the “you didn’t have much problem with it last time” form of what aboutism that we’d likely see should an Al Gore level robbery take place again.


Well people need to vote in Democratic leaders then. The agreement to postpone the election was bipartisan when the Republican legislature could have overridden the Governor, but it’s a good thing it was postponed.

Implementing mail in voting was where the problem occurred because apparently there weren’t enough poll workers to open up more locations. Apparently requests for mail in balloting was the highest it’s ever been and wonder if it surpasses in person voting numbers of past elections. I have my doubts that this wasn’t purposely done by the Republicans but both Booker and McGrath Giles injunctions in the courts, many Democrats have talked about it including Lebron. At some point voters have to realize that Republicans are problems and you have to come out in huge numbers to vote them out and it has to be sustained every election cycle, not just Presidential ones. There’s one party who’s trying to make mail in voting mandatory at the Federal level and another party trying to block it. I’ll give you a guess who’s who.


My entire point here is that they should be trying harder. I'm glad they made voting reform the first bill they put up as a new Congress, but I'm frustrated that they did a piss poor job promoting it. These current circumstances have presented another opportunity to center the issue and take up the fight; but there's no will power to actually make it a fight. So it's "we tried..but Republicans" even as we watch more voters disenfranchised be it incompetence or bad faith.

Yesterday wasn't the first time these circumstances existed, but we walked right into it again. You want voters to come out in huge numbers to vote out the Republicans? Make it easier for them to vote. And every time the Republicans play foul on this issue and it gets met with a shrug; they have every reason to try and get away with it again. Strategically speaking, I think the ball was dropped not forcing mandatory mail-in voting into the COVID spending bill discussion. But I have a lot of issues with the COVID spending negotiations I'll admit.

So to get back on my main point...If we resign ourselves to Republicans in power being able to suppress votes; then we're not doing enough to disincentivize voter suppression. If they can get away with it to win an election, they will do it. We know that. We saw that. Stacey Abrams lost to that. Asking voters to address voter suppression feels like it's missing the key component; enabling voters to address it. And if we can't enable the voters to do so because of Republican obstruction, then the least we can do is give them absolute hell for effectively stripping away a right that people still alive to day have to fight to be granted.


Well I think you’re misunderstanding a fundamental problem Republicans. Democrats in Congress have passed 100’s of bills that are literally sitting in the Senate and collecting dust because of Mitch McConnell. Republicans are a fundamentally broken party that has no interest in governing and you can see it at the Federal level and at the state level in some examples. There’s really not much else the Democrats can do because Republicans literally don’t give a ****. So again it all comes back to getting Republicans the **** out of office at all levels.

And that means showing up to vote for Democrats even if it’s not your preferred candidate. It also means showing up to vote because you care about your country not because a candidate excites you. Voter suppression works because it trims at the margins and the only way to counteract that and gerrymandering is to show up in huge numbers over a sustained period of time. It’s probably going to take at least a decade to undo all the damage Trump has done. There’s really no other alternative then to wrestle power away from Republicans and keep them out of power for a long long time.
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Re: OT: Democratic Primary Thread 

Post#1647 » by HarthorneWingo » Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:54 am

Rich Rane wrote:
HarthorneWingo wrote:
machu46 wrote:
According to the archived version of 538's 2016 coverage, their national polling average had Hillary up 42.9% - 36.5% (net of 6.4%) compared to the current 50.9% - 41.3% (net of 9.6%, and maybe more importantly, Biden already being above 50%). Hillary peaked at 46.0%, so Biden is already comfortably past her in that regard.


That's not what I would call a "comfortable lead" by any stretch.


Well just to add some context, Obama defeated Romney by only a 4% margin of the popular vote and defeated McCain by 7% and I'm not quite sure anyone said those elections were in doubt for Obama. Yes, Hillary Clinton had a margin of 2%, but it was really the less than 80,000 voters in Pennsylvania, Michigan, and Wisconsin that lost her the election. So "comfortable lead" nationally for Biden, but of course in general elections, it always comes down to a few states.

All that said, yes, keep up the pressure. November is still so far away. Let angry and disgruntled Republicans like The Lincoln Project continue to use GOP candidates' words, actions, and inactions against them. GOP needs to not only lose the White House, but the Senate as well along with losing more House seats.


I think we really need to stay away from the national polls. They mean nothing.

I saw a poll tonight on Hayes’s show. Biden only up 1% on Trump in Ohio. I haven’t seen the other updated battleground state polls but I understand that the NY Time is coming out with one tomorrow.
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Re: OT: Democratic Primary Thread 

Post#1648 » by HarthorneWingo » Thu Jun 25, 2020 4:00 am

Pointgod wrote:
j4remi wrote:
Pointgod wrote:
Well people need to vote in Democratic leaders then. The agreement to postpone the election was bipartisan when the Republican legislature could have overridden the Governor, but it’s a good thing it was postponed.

Implementing mail in voting was where the problem occurred because apparently there weren’t enough poll workers to open up more locations. Apparently requests for mail in balloting was the highest it’s ever been and wonder if it surpasses in person voting numbers of past elections. I have my doubts that this wasn’t purposely done by the Republicans but both Booker and McGrath Giles injunctions in the courts, many Democrats have talked about it including Lebron. At some point voters have to realize that Republicans are problems and you have to come out in huge numbers to vote them out and it has to be sustained every election cycle, not just Presidential ones. There’s one party who’s trying to make mail in voting mandatory at the Federal level and another party trying to block it. I’ll give you a guess who’s who.


My entire point here is that they should be trying harder. I'm glad they made voting reform the first bill they put up as a new Congress, but I'm frustrated that they did a piss poor job promoting it. These current circumstances have presented another opportunity to center the issue and take up the fight; but there's no will power to actually make it a fight. So it's "we tried..but Republicans" even as we watch more voters disenfranchised be it incompetence or bad faith.

Yesterday wasn't the first time these circumstances existed, but we walked right into it again. You want voters to come out in huge numbers to vote out the Republicans? Make it easier for them to vote. And every time the Republicans play foul on this issue and it gets met with a shrug; they have every reason to try and get away with it again. Strategically speaking, I think the ball was dropped not forcing mandatory mail-in voting into the COVID spending bill discussion. But I have a lot of issues with the COVID spending negotiations I'll admit.

So to get back on my main point...If we resign ourselves to Republicans in power being able to suppress votes; then we're not doing enough to disincentivize voter suppression. If they can get away with it to win an election, they will do it. We know that. We saw that. Stacey Abrams lost to that. Asking voters to address voter suppression feels like it's missing the key component; enabling voters to address it. And if we can't enable the voters to do so because of Republican obstruction, then the least we can do is give them absolute hell for effectively stripping away a right that people still alive to day have to fight to be granted.


Well I think you’re misunderstanding a fundamental problem Republicans. Democrats in Congress have passed 100’s of bills that are literally sitting in the Senate and collecting dust because of Mitch McConnell. Republicans are a fundamentally broken party that has no interest in governing and you can see it at the Federal level and at the state level in some examples. There’s really not much else the Democrats can do because Republicans literally don’t give a ****. So again it all comes back to getting Republicans the **** out of office at all levels.

And that means showing up to vote for Democrats even if it’s not your preferred candidate. It also means showing up to vote because you care about your country not because a candidate excites you. Voter suppression works because it trims at the margins and the only way to counteract that and gerrymandering is to show up in huge numbers over a sustained period of time. It’s probably going to take at least a decade to undo all the damage Trump has done. There’s really no other alternative then to wrestle power away from Republicans and keep them out of power for a long long time.


Don’t forget all of the gerrymandering we also have to overcome. If we can take all three branches in November, then maybe we can steamroll them. It will require us to make bold moves though, e.g. packing the Supreme Court and the D.C. Circuit Court.
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Re: OT: Democratic Primary Thread 

Post#1649 » by Phish Tank » Thu Jun 25, 2020 4:19 am

hopefully outside the Twitter sphere, most people take the polls as simply part of horse race coverage and not a reason to sit out an election. I'm guessing 2016 was it for most people who even went with that approach... if anyone truly votes based on polling, then idk what to tell them.
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Re: OT: Democratic Primary Thread 

Post#1650 » by HarthorneWingo » Thu Jun 25, 2020 5:53 am

Phish Tank wrote:hopefully outside the Twitter sphere, most people take the polls as simply part of horse race coverage and not a reason to sit out an election. I'm guessing 2016 was it for most people who even went with that approach... if anyone truly votes based on polling, then idk what to tell them.


All things being equal (a big "IF" in American politics today), people vote based on the enthusiasm they have for their candidate. I don't know where that enthusiasm will come from with Biden. Young Democrats certainly are not at all. Yes, they hate Trump but they see themselves in a hopeless position no matter who wins. It appears that it will have to emerge out of the collective hatred and intolerance of one more day of Trump.

Democrats don't vote, generally, as much as Republicans. If we have another wave of COVID in the fall, it could really throw a wrench into the election. They're already compromised based on what's transpired in the past few elections anyhow.

EDIT:

This is pretty wild and basically backs up my view that this election right now is solely a referendum on Trump because of Biden's very low favorability and very low unfavorability polling numbers. The only one that stands out is the high unfavorable numbers Trump gets.

Image

Read on Twitter


Sam and Mike do a nice job going through all the different polling breakdowns including the above. I think it's a good listen. They begin discussing at around 1:38:00.

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Re: OT: Democratic Primary Thread 

Post#1651 » by machu46 » Thu Jun 25, 2020 10:41 am

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https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/25/upshot/poll-2020-biden-battlegrounds.html

Link to the new state polls referenced a couple posts above.


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Re: OT: Democratic Primary Thread 

Post#1652 » by Pointgod » Thu Jun 25, 2020 12:55 pm

HarthorneWingo wrote:
Rich Rane wrote:
HarthorneWingo wrote:
That's not what I would call a "comfortable lead" by any stretch.


Well just to add some context, Obama defeated Romney by only a 4% margin of the popular vote and defeated McCain by 7% and I'm not quite sure anyone said those elections were in doubt for Obama. Yes, Hillary Clinton had a margin of 2%, but it was really the less than 80,000 voters in Pennsylvania, Michigan, and Wisconsin that lost her the election. So "comfortable lead" nationally for Biden, but of course in general elections, it always comes down to a few states.

All that said, yes, keep up the pressure. November is still so far away. Let angry and disgruntled Republicans like The Lincoln Project continue to use GOP candidates' words, actions, and inactions against them. GOP needs to not only lose the White House, but the Senate as well along with losing more House seats.


I think we really need to stay away from the national polls. They mean nothing.

I saw a poll tonight on Hayes’s show. Biden only up 1% on Trump in Ohio. I haven’t seen the other updated battleground state polls but I understand that the NY Time is coming out with one tomorrow.


You have to take a look at how much Biden is ahead in the polls vs how much Trump won the state in 2016. The fact the Biden is up in Ohio is horrible news for Trump considering that he won it by 8% in 2016. Let’s put it this way, Biden just needs to win back Pennsylvania and Michigan and he can win Arizona it’s a wrap for Trump. Right now he’s well ahead of the margin of error in 6 battle ground states. Then he’s within the margin of error in states like Ohio and Texas! That means that if those numbers hold heading into Election Day he could still pull an upset in Ohio or Texas. These polls are all positive indicators but at the end of the day it will depend on turnout. If Democrats focus on getting Obama levels of turnout this election and every one in between for the next two decades then you’ll achieve the Progressive version of America that you want.
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Re: OT: Democratic Primary Thread 

Post#1653 » by HarthorneWingo » Thu Jun 25, 2020 1:05 pm

Pointgod wrote:
HarthorneWingo wrote:
Rich Rane wrote:
Well just to add some context, Obama defeated Romney by only a 4% margin of the popular vote and defeated McCain by 7% and I'm not quite sure anyone said those elections were in doubt for Obama. Yes, Hillary Clinton had a margin of 2%, but it was really the less than 80,000 voters in Pennsylvania, Michigan, and Wisconsin that lost her the election. So "comfortable lead" nationally for Biden, but of course in general elections, it always comes down to a few states.

All that said, yes, keep up the pressure. November is still so far away. Let angry and disgruntled Republicans like The Lincoln Project continue to use GOP candidates' words, actions, and inactions against them. GOP needs to not only lose the White House, but the Senate as well along with losing more House seats.


I think we really need to stay away from the national polls. They mean nothing.

I saw a poll tonight on Hayes’s show. Biden only up 1% on Trump in Ohio. I haven’t seen the other updated battleground state polls but I understand that the NY Time is coming out with one tomorrow.


You have to take a look at how much Biden is ahead in the polls vs how much Trump won the state in 2016. The fact the Biden is up in Ohio is horrible news for Trump considering that he won it by 8% in 2016. Let’s put it this way, Biden just needs to win back Pennsylvania and Michigan and he can win Arizona it’s a wrap for Trump. Right now he’s well ahead of the margin of error in 6 battle ground states. Then he’s within the margin of error in states like Ohio and Texas! That means that if those numbers hold heading into Election Day he could still pull an upset in Ohio or Texas. These polls are all positive indicators but at the end of the day it will depend on turnout. If Democrats focus on getting Obama levels of turnout this election and every one in between for the next two decades then you’ll achieve the Progressive version of America that you want.



I hear you but the polling is all based on “unfavorability” poll numbers. People view Biden as not as bad as Trump. So that means that Trump controls the narrative, not Biden who they will have locked up in the closet preparing for hopefully no more than one or two debates in September.

If you watch Biden’s 15-30 second campaign ad which is played prior to running YouTube videos, he can barely make it through the sentence “Hi, I’m Joe Biden.”
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Re: OT: Democratic Primary Thread 

Post#1654 » by GONYK » Thu Jun 25, 2020 1:14 pm

HarthorneWingo wrote:
Phish Tank wrote:hopefully outside the Twitter sphere, most people take the polls as simply part of horse race coverage and not a reason to sit out an election. I'm guessing 2016 was it for most people who even went with that approach... if anyone truly votes based on polling, then idk what to tell them.


All things being equal (a big "IF" in American politics today), people vote based on the enthusiasm they have for their candidate. I don't know where that enthusiasm will come from with Biden. Young Democrats certainly are not at all. Yes, they hate Trump but they see themselves in a hopeless position no matter who wins. It appears that it will have to emerge out of the collective hatred and intolerance of one more day of Trump.

Democrats don't vote, generally, as much as Republicans. If we have another wave of COVID in the fall, it could really throw a wrench into the election. They're already compromised based on what's transpired in the past few elections anyhow.

EDIT:

This is pretty wild and basically backs up my view that this election right now is solely a referendum on Trump because of Biden's very low favorability and very low unfavorability polling numbers. The only one that stands out is the high unfavorable numbers Trump gets.

Image

Read on Twitter


Sam and Mike do a nice job going through all the different polling breakdowns including the above. I think it's a good listen. They begin discussing at around 1:38:00.



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Re: OT: Democratic Primary Thread 

Post#1655 » by GONYK » Thu Jun 25, 2020 1:18 pm

Pointgod wrote:
HarthorneWingo wrote:
Rich Rane wrote:
Well just to add some context, Obama defeated Romney by only a 4% margin of the popular vote and defeated McCain by 7% and I'm not quite sure anyone said those elections were in doubt for Obama. Yes, Hillary Clinton had a margin of 2%, but it was really the less than 80,000 voters in Pennsylvania, Michigan, and Wisconsin that lost her the election. So "comfortable lead" nationally for Biden, but of course in general elections, it always comes down to a few states.

All that said, yes, keep up the pressure. November is still so far away. Let angry and disgruntled Republicans like The Lincoln Project continue to use GOP candidates' words, actions, and inactions against them. GOP needs to not only lose the White House, but the Senate as well along with losing more House seats.


I think we really need to stay away from the national polls. They mean nothing.

I saw a poll tonight on Hayes’s show. Biden only up 1% on Trump in Ohio. I haven’t seen the other updated battleground state polls but I understand that the NY Time is coming out with one tomorrow.


You have to take a look at how much Biden is ahead in the polls vs how much Trump won the state in 2016. The fact the Biden is up in Ohio is horrible news for Trump considering that he won it by 8% in 2016. Let’s put it this way, Biden just needs to win back Pennsylvania and Michigan and he can win Arizona it’s a wrap for Trump. Right now he’s well ahead of the margin of error in 6 battle ground states. Then he’s within the margin of error in states like Ohio and Texas! That means that if those numbers hold heading into Election Day he could still pull an upset in Ohio or Texas. These polls are all positive indicators but at the end of the day it will depend on turnout. If Democrats focus on getting Obama levels of turnout this election and every one in between for the next two decades then you’ll achieve the Progressive version of America that you want.


I live in TX. Trump is advertising like crazy here.

If Trump needs to spend money to advertise this heavily in a state that hasn't voted blue since 1976, that is a terrible sign for him.
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Re: OT: Democratic Primary Thread 

Post#1656 » by Phish Tank » Thu Jun 25, 2020 2:19 pm

GONYK wrote:
Pointgod wrote:
HarthorneWingo wrote:
I think we really need to stay away from the national polls. They mean nothing.

I saw a poll tonight on Hayes’s show. Biden only up 1% on Trump in Ohio. I haven’t seen the other updated battleground state polls but I understand that the NY Time is coming out with one tomorrow.


You have to take a look at how much Biden is ahead in the polls vs how much Trump won the state in 2016. The fact the Biden is up in Ohio is horrible news for Trump considering that he won it by 8% in 2016. Let’s put it this way, Biden just needs to win back Pennsylvania and Michigan and he can win Arizona it’s a wrap for Trump. Right now he’s well ahead of the margin of error in 6 battle ground states. Then he’s within the margin of error in states like Ohio and Texas! That means that if those numbers hold heading into Election Day he could still pull an upset in Ohio or Texas. These polls are all positive indicators but at the end of the day it will depend on turnout. If Democrats focus on getting Obama levels of turnout this election and every one in between for the next two decades then you’ll achieve the Progressive version of America that you want.


I live in TX. Trump is advertising like crazy here.

If Trump needs to spend money to advertise this heavily in a state that hasn't voted blue since 1976, that is a terrible sign for him.


the campaign wasting money in TX is laughable.

The campaign investing heavily in OH (a state that ideally will never turn back to blue again) is a big problem for him and that means the polls are somewhat correct.

Truth of the matter is, the Biden campaign isn't looking at any of these polls that are being released on a weekly basis.
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Re: OT: Democratic Primary Thread 

Post#1657 » by j4remi » Thu Jun 25, 2020 2:21 pm

Pointgod wrote:
Well I think you’re misunderstanding a fundamental problem Republicans. Democrats in Congress have passed 100’s of bills that are literally sitting in the Senate and collecting dust because of Mitch McConnell. Republicans are a fundamentally broken party that has no interest in governing and you can see it at the Federal level and at the state level in some examples. There’s really not much else the Democrats can do because Republicans literally don’t give a ****. So again it all comes back to getting Republicans the **** out of office at all levels.

And that means showing up to vote for Democrats even if it’s not your preferred candidate. It also means showing up to vote because you care about your country not because a candidate excites you. Voter suppression works because it trims at the margins and the only way to counteract that and gerrymandering is to show up in huge numbers over a sustained period of time. It’s probably going to take at least a decade to undo all the damage Trump has done. There’s really no other alternative then to wrestle power away from Republicans and keep them out of power for a long long time.


Nah, I understand the obstructionist challenges we face with Republicans, I'm not sure there's anyone posting in this thread who doesn't understand that part of the issue.

What we're talking about are solutions to the problem and actually, I don't even think we're that far off. We both agree that the key to unseating Republicans is to bring in mass votes. I think that's a fair assessment of what you're saying here right? So we're working from a foundation that if we can get masses to vote, Democrats will overcome Republicans' grip on power.

Okay now here's where we disconnect; I don't think the Democrats have done enough to address voter suppression and enable voters. I think what we've seen so far in the primaries is extremely concerning for what they might try to maintain power in November. So I think there's more work to be done calling attention to potential abuses down the line based on the precedents set by abuses occurring today...the gap here isn't about how bad the Republicans are it's about whether or not the Democrats have done enough to address the damage Republicans are doing (in this case on voting rights specifically).
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Re: OT: Democratic Primary Thread 

Post#1658 » by Phish Tank » Thu Jun 25, 2020 2:47 pm

j4remi wrote:
Pointgod wrote:
Well I think you’re misunderstanding a fundamental problem Republicans. Democrats in Congress have passed 100’s of bills that are literally sitting in the Senate and collecting dust because of Mitch McConnell. Republicans are a fundamentally broken party that has no interest in governing and you can see it at the Federal level and at the state level in some examples. There’s really not much else the Democrats can do because Republicans literally don’t give a ****. So again it all comes back to getting Republicans the **** out of office at all levels.

And that means showing up to vote for Democrats even if it’s not your preferred candidate. It also means showing up to vote because you care about your country not because a candidate excites you. Voter suppression works because it trims at the margins and the only way to counteract that and gerrymandering is to show up in huge numbers over a sustained period of time. It’s probably going to take at least a decade to undo all the damage Trump has done. There’s really no other alternative then to wrestle power away from Republicans and keep them out of power for a long long time.


Nah, I understand the obstructionist challenges we face with Republicans, I'm not sure there's anyone posting in this thread who doesn't understand that part of the issue.

What we're talking about are solutions to the problem and actually, I don't even think we're that far off. We both agree that the key to unseating Republicans is to bring in mass votes. I think that's a fair assessment of what you're saying here right? So we're working from a foundation that if we can get masses to vote, Democrats will overcome Republicans' grip on power.

Okay now here's where we disconnect; I don't think the Democrats have done enough to address voter suppression and enable voters. I think what we've seen so far in the primaries is extremely concerning for what they might try to maintain power in November. So I think there's more work to be done calling attention to potential abuses down the line based on the precedents set by abuses occurring today...the gap here isn't about how bad the Republicans are it's about whether or not the Democrats have done enough to address the damage Republicans are doing (in this case on voting rights specifically).


From a theoretical point of view, let's throw out - for one moment - all the ways to fight voter suppression:

1) Stay woke on all federal & state discussions around voter purges, voter ID restrictions, polling locations, etc.
2) Mobilize together and just publicize this on all possible platforms all day long (TV, live streams, targeted protests at city halls and residences of republican politicians). If violence is necessary (against republicans), use it.
3) Large scale registration efforts
4) Organized efforts to transport voters to polling locations and make sure they're well nourished while in line

Perhaps some of these voting rights groups have to come together and form like Voltron. Perhaps its national leadership that has to be more aggressive with their stance, but to be quite honest, the reporters are too soft when it comes to asking Schumer and Pelosi questions (call em out for being soft - be an attack dog). I want them to be attack dogs, but they won't because they want access.

Remi - add some more theoretical things and then we can reassess to see what's actually being done and what's not.
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Re: OT: Democratic Primary Thread 

Post#1659 » by j4remi » Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:05 pm

Phish Tank wrote:From a theoretical point of view, let's throw out - for one moment - all the ways to fight voter suppression:

1) Stay woke on all federal & state discussions around voter purges, voter ID restrictions, polling locations, etc.
2) Mobilize together and just publicize this on all possible platforms all day long (TV, live streams, targeted protests at city halls and residences of republican politicians). If violence is necessary (against republicans), use it.
3) Large scale registration efforts
4) Organized efforts to transport voters to polling locations and make sure they're well nourished while in line

Perhaps some of these voting rights groups have to come together and form like Voltron. Perhaps its national leadership that has to be more aggressive with their stance, but to be quite honest, the reporters are too soft when it comes to asking Schumer and Pelosi questions (call em out for being soft - be an attack dog). I want them to be attack dogs, but they won't because they want access.

Remi - add some more theoretical things and then we can reassess to see what's actually being done and what's not.


Dude THANK YOU for focusing on a discussion of solutions. I've got an 11:00 Zoom meeting so this is rushed and I'll add on but to hit a bit here:

1) Awareness is definitely step one and this one is the easiest to address locally.

2) Mobilization is on point here. I'm glad you mention violence because the Brooks Brothers Riot is a really slept on and interesting story amongst voter disenfranchisement stories where Republicans used violence and got their way in the end. I'd add in that everyone who ran and has an email list should be using it for both 1 and 2. Bernie certainly does but he has the infrastructure to do so, I haven't seen anyone else I donated to practice this unless it was their own election at issue.

3 and 4) These are two of the most underrated ones. Abrams really started to work on this but to get the big bucks for her operation she had to kiss Bloomberg's ring for a while (I don't mind that because I get it, just pointing out what it took). We need to increase funding toward these operations.

Now additions:
5) Legislative fights. I said it once but when COVID was being taken seriously by Republicans because their donors were worried; the Dems had a chance to include mail-in voting as part of the negotiation. They ceded that ground and really didn't extract much from those negotiations overall. I think the biggest issue I have right now is how often being the minority party has caused the Dems to play softball in negotiations (DACA was another example a couple years back where they balked during a funding fight).

6) Better targeting efforts. Latin outreach is pretty damned weak, yes there are efforts but it's weak. Bernie saw that opening and did really well in that realm; Biden's campaign has sounded reticent to bother. Brown folk face suppression and get less help to the polls and I think that (combined with Dems being pretty abysmal on immigration until recently) is why Latin polling isn't as extreme as black when we see the splits for Dems/Republican.

7) When the writing is on the wall, involve independent monitors. The ACLU comes to mind straight away. In general, less reacting and more proactive approaches. When funny business is happening; start to take steps EARLY. Line the lawyers up; make thinly veiled (and possibly even empty) threats about consequences; but make the voter suppression a story before it happens. That way they either stop and say we overreacted or they do it and we can literally say "told you this would happen, now we're fixing it."
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Re: OT: Democratic Primary Thread 

Post#1660 » by Phish Tank » Thu Jun 25, 2020 4:12 pm

j4remi wrote:
Phish Tank wrote:From a theoretical point of view, let's throw out - for one moment - all the ways to fight voter suppression:

1) Stay woke on all federal & state discussions around voter purges, voter ID restrictions, polling locations, etc.
2) Mobilize together and just publicize this on all possible platforms all day long (TV, live streams, targeted protests at city halls and residences of republican politicians). If violence is necessary (against republicans), use it.
3) Large scale registration efforts
4) Organized efforts to transport voters to polling locations and make sure they're well nourished while in line

Perhaps some of these voting rights groups have to come together and form like Voltron. Perhaps its national leadership that has to be more aggressive with their stance, but to be quite honest, the reporters are too soft when it comes to asking Schumer and Pelosi questions (call em out for being soft - be an attack dog). I want them to be attack dogs, but they won't because they want access.

Remi - add some more theoretical things and then we can reassess to see what's actually being done and what's not.


Dude THANK YOU for focusing on a discussion of solutions. I've got an 11:00 Zoom meeting so this is rushed and I'll add on but to hit a bit here:

1) Awareness is definitely step one and this one is the easiest to address locally.

2) Mobilization is on point here. I'm glad you mention violence because the Brooks Brothers Riot is a really slept on and interesting story amongst voter disenfranchisement stories where Republicans used violence and got their way in the end. I'd add in that everyone who ran and has an email list should be using it for both 1 and 2. Bernie certainly does but he has the infrastructure to do so, I haven't seen anyone else I donated to practice this unless it was their own election at issue.

3 and 4) These are two of the most underrated ones. Abrams really started to work on this but to get the big bucks for her operation she had to kiss Bloomberg's ring for a while (I don't mind that because I get it, just pointing out what it took). We need to increase funding toward these operations.

Now additions:
5) Legislative fights. I said it once but when COVID was being taken seriously by Republicans because their donors were worried; the Dems had a chance to include mail-in voting as part of the negotiation. They ceded that ground and really didn't extract much from those negotiations overall. I think the biggest issue I have right now is how often being the minority party has caused the Dems to play softball in negotiations (DACA was another example a couple years back where they balked during a funding fight).

6) Better targeting efforts. Latin outreach is pretty damned weak, yes there are efforts but it's weak. Bernie saw that opening and did really well in that realm; Biden's campaign has sounded reticent to bother. Brown folk face suppression and get less help to the polls and I think that (combined with Dems being pretty abysmal on immigration until recently) is why Latin polling isn't as extreme as black when we see the splits for Dems/Republican.

7) When the writing is on the wall, involve independent monitors. The ACLU comes to mind straight away. In general, less reacting and more proactive approaches. When funny business is happening; start to take steps EARLY. Line the lawyers up; make thinly veiled (and possibly even empty) threats about consequences; but make the voter suppression a story before it happens. That way they either stop and say we overreacted or they do it and we can literally say "told you this would happen, now we're fixing it."


You made good points on 2). Email lists and nonstop targeting is a must.

As for points 5-7:

5) I understand the frustration when it comes to negotiating certain items into a bill. Schumer's a bigger softie than Pelosi on that regard (which is why I mentioned in my previous post how I want more tv hosts and reporters to grill him on being a softie, but are too scared and "protective of their profession" not to do it). However, I had those same issues when it came to impeachment. One thing I'll say is that I talked to my cousin - who works as a legal counsel for a prominent US Senator (and former presidential candidate - I can PM you if you're curious) - that there's a lot more behind the scenes (from grandstanding, et al) that people like myself don't really know (mainly because we're not in DC all the time) which is why things don't always happen the way we want. He made me understand the process a bit more and not to oversimplify things.

6) Yea the Latinx outreach is an interesting quandary in my opinion. To be quite honest, it's a tough area to reconcile because many in the community were not fans of the Obama Administration. I honestly don't know how Biden can win them back, but I understand Bernie because he has the outsider mentality in that regards. But when it comes to Latinx outreach, what campaigns fail to realize is that the Latino population is very different across regions. One approach can't work everywhere.

Agree wholeheartedly with 7)
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