July 1st Free Agency Begins - Catchall thread

[El Poochio]

this thon maker guy looks reaaaally good. wish we had our draft pick for next year if we suck this year

Yeah, he is gonna make a thon of money in this league

Seriously, that was a good one.

Yes Laaaad Jim Carrey is my all time favourite actor man

[El Poochio]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/wojyahoonba/status/625354209651781632[/tweet]

I would have taken Shabazz for a future 2nd.

He is a bit Calderonish imo, I think we need more of a penetrator type, more direct guard rather a playmaker one.

[moocow007]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/wojyahoonba/status/625354209651781632[/tweet]

I would have taken Shabazz for a future 2nd.

Jackson has traded all of the Knicks 2nd rounders until 2020.

[N Y K]

Big ass trade exception

[tweet]https://twitter.com/BR_NBA/status/625486155765583872[/tweet]
[tweet]https://twitter.com/WojYahooNBA/status/625489275388325888[/tweet]

[N Y K]

And I guess Bobby Marks agrees with all those that would have preferred we spent the money for hernangomez than give the picks up.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/BobbyMarks42/status/625484982044241920[/tweet]

[mugzi]

The Blazers bent over on that one.

[El Poochio]

Big ass trade exception

[tweet]https://twitter.com/BR_NBA/status/625486155765583872[/tweet]

INCOMING MELO TRADE

[moocow007]

Well, I'd agree with you that Atkins isn't much of a prospect. However, if you ARE going to bring a body to training camp, bring in one that plays tough D, is a good character guy, and who might stick. Again, if the Knicks are trying to build a culture, and the culture is of hardworking players who play D and have relatively complete games (well, maybe not Atkins) then you should do it with players 1-20, which includes players like Atkins.

That culture got the Knicks 17 wins last season. At the end of the day you still need talent. If these great soldier types had any real NBA talent the chances of finding one, much less two is super slim. Compound it with the fact that Atkins is a PF whose game projects to Lance Thomas and Lou Amundson level. The Knicks already have (over) paid Thomas and Amundsen. Under no realistic scenario would Atkins have a shot at making this team. That means the Knicks WILL be cutting him before the start of the season. Cutting him means no contract meaning Atkins can go anywhere (ie. Europe, China) to play. He doesn't have to take the 25k salary to play in the D League. Had the Knicks not already had Thomas and Amundsen signed, then sure there might be a shot for Atkins.

If I'm to understand the "high ceiling" guy, isn't that most likely to be a talented player who has a bit of a bad reputation as either lazy or a knucklehead, but the hope is that either the rep isn't truly deserved (rare) or the player changes (rarer still).

And the reality is that the chances are still better than Atkins making the team (again see Thomas and Amundsen as well as Atkins low ceiling).

I'm going to disagree that Wes Saunders is low ceiling. I think getting a guy from the Ivy league is one of the few ways to get a player who was overlooked. And not like I expect Saunders to become a star or a starter. But he has a chance to be as good as Galloway. Maybe better. Who knows. Then that makes Galloway expendable, maybe in a trade. If both are kept, both are cheap.

Teams have shown explicitly that they value character and are both emphasis given both drafting and signing such players. Given the greater swing for guys of this type, why was he: a) not drafted, b) stand out in SL play, c) chased by any other team that we've heard? He does at least make more sense than Atkins, I'll give him that much.

I like what the Knicks are doing with the end of the bench, lets say players 11-15. First off, really only the top 9 players play. Maybe the 10th guy gets 5 minutes here and there. Players 11 and 12 are your emergency/injury spares. Back in the day, 11 and 12 were usually a 3rd string center and 3rd pg, attesting to height matters and helps to have somewhat who can competently bring the ball up, under pressure.

Then why bother even signing any players for 12-15? whats to like if 12-15 is pointless?

Due to expanding roster, there is no reason that players 13,14 and 15 shouldn't be development guys. Only the most desparate veteran would be happy sitting in a suit or the dleague for the extra dollars. Others may become malcontent. Best that these slots are filled with hard workers, with some potential, who are HAPPY to be there. I think that matters.

Talent is what you look to develop. More talent, more "stuff" to develop. Less talent, less "stuff" to develop. Adding vets that may not play major minutes but that could help in the locker room and provide leadership would make more sense if they don't feel the need to chance high upside guys.

I like the approach so far. Galloway, Thanasis, Early, Ledo, Wear, Hernangomez (stashed). It's a pipeline, hopefully, of young, CHEAP, end of the bench talent.

? Keeping Wear would make signing Atkins even more pointless. Keeping Ledo would make Saunders even more pointless.

Otherwise, you have to shell out more for some retread, so there is some cost effectiveness with this approach. And throwing enough, you know, at the wall, maybe one or two the guys pans out to be a little better than replacement level.

What retread? NBA vets? The Knicks are already over the cap. The NBA pays for a portion of a vets minimum salary that adding a rookie FA to a minimum will not do so they aren't really spending any more money.

In any event, a team always wants to improve, even if incrementally. If somehow Atkins turns out to be a little better than Lance Thomas, cool, drop Thomas, this year or next. Maybe Saunders pushes Ledo, who should be pushing at Galloway. I like Galloway, but if Ledo or Saunders wind up being better, I would lose zero sleep seeing Galloway dealt or released at some point.

And if I can win lotto I'd be set but...

This is on top of Porzingis and Grant, who we expect to be more "blue chip" in terms of youth.

Has nothing to do with anything.

You seemed to either miss a lot of my points, or at least be determined to oversimplify some of my statements in order to prove your point.

All I'm really saying is the signings aren't that bad, maybe a guy or two will pan out. I think they could use another big, but you really think there is THAT much more out there to sign, in terms of vets, and that those vets would be willing to not dress for like 90"% of the season? I"m not arguing the Knicks don't need a talent upgrade in general, but they did that already. Or I should say, they took a first step in that regards (Quinn, Affalo, Lopez, Grant, Porzingis) but of course probably 3 out of 5 of those positions, if not all 5, Knicks will want to upgrade at some point. I think this at least addresses your point of "the culture got the Knicks 17 wins".

Huh? My statements WERE countering you saying that the signing aren't bad. If that's all you are saying, then that exactly was what I was countering.

Maybe a guy or two will pan out? Based on what though? Wishful thinking? What is the basis of your statement other than just that? What is good about those signings other than the usual "well...let's hope for the best...in Phil We Trust"?

Again, what is the rationale for signing a low ceilinged forward whose only forte and only realistic NBA career path is the same path that 2 other hardworking guys that he's already overpaid is already on? You can never have enough hardworking low talented forwards? Sure you can. Otherwise why not just have a full team of them? There's a threshold for reason when it comes to makeup of rosters.

As far as vets out there that are much more than a low ceilinged guy who's skills are already mimicked by 2 low ceilinged guys already on and guaranteed to make the roster? ABSOLUTELY. Why else would I say it? Why even ask that question?

As far as the culture that got the Knicks 17 games and addressing it. Are you afraid of having too many vets? What's the fear? And of those vets how many of them come with winning NBA experience, forget about championship experience? I'll give you a hint the whole number is between 0 and 2.

Come on. That was WITH Bargs, with broken Amare, with Melo hurt, with chucking JR, with half crap Shump.

And what was the rationale the season before that? But regardless, where does the notion that too much vets on a team that is trying to win as many games as possible STILL too much?

The 54 win season was chuck full of not just vets, but vets that knew what it takes to win because they've done it. Of the free agents signed, only Lopez has experience playing on a top tier team and that's been only for 2 seasons. Afflalo has spent most his career on losing teams, Derrick Williams the same, Kyle O'Quinn the same.

But the point wasn't to talk about the talent level of the starters, just what expectations are of what to do with the end of the roster spots.

And who was to begin with? My criticism is about signing a guy that won't even make the team and the need for the Knicks to add strong veteran voices...winning veteran voices...to the team.

Why? Cause I can tell you know, as much as it seems like I defend Carmelo Anthony, the reality is that I do not believe that Anthony is strong enough from a leadership standpoint to lead this team to where they should be going. He needs help. He got it in 2012-2013 and they won 54 games. He got it in Denver and Denver was consistently a 50+ win franchise. Anthony's talent isn't the issue, he has the talent to help teams to 50+ wins, he doesn't have the leadership. Leadership is what this team needs and has needed since 2012-2013. The guys they signed does help but it's not enough. WEll...it is enough if the goal is to maybe win 40 games and eeck into the playoffs, but I actually have a bit higher expectations.

^^^See (for others) I'm not an Anthony Lover or an Anthony apologist...I'm a realist honest about what he's great at and what he's not great at.

And not sure if you were being deliberately obtuse, I just listed Ware as one of the young project players the Knicks tried out the last TWO seasons. Yes, of course there is no point for him if Atkins sticks. Actually, there isn't much point for Atkins if Thanasis sticks. I just see this as the Knicks filling out the summer league roster and hedging if one of them turns out better. Something I"m sure most teams do. Same for listing Galloway and Ledo and Saunders. Probably only one makes the team, to include the DLeague team. Maybe two of three, but then someone like Thanasis drops etc.

Wear is an example of reality when it comes to guys that you are saying "could be good". The harsh reality is that the vast, vast, vast majority of these guys aren't good and won't be good enough. The NBA has and always will be a league based on talent. Talent, above all else, is the most important thing to guarantee any sort of career in the NBA.

As far as what most teams do....depends on what that team is trying to do. If it's rebuilding, then absolutely, young guys all the way. But the reality is that this is not a rebuilding team. They don't have their own 1st round pick (or any round pick) for 2016 and don't have their own 2nd round pick until the turn of the decade. The players they've committed to have pointed them in the direction of winning, not of rebuilding no matter how much folks really really want to believe it. Winning teams need leadership, guys that know how to win, guys who can keep the locker room focused and have enough respect from players (ESPECIALLY Carmelo Anthony) to not pull a Stephon Marbury (NOTE: Marbury's biggest weakness was that he never had veteran leaders in the locker room to help make up for his weakness...leadership). I'm really not sure why folks can't seem to grasp this potential problem. I mean folks keep harping on the Spurs as being the model team and seem to fail to realize the importance of having guys on a team that know what it takes to win. Just look at the difference one year made with guys like Chandler, with Shumpert, with even Anthony for goodness sake of having winning vets vs. not having them.

I don't believe for a minute (ok maybe a minute but only if I tried to distract myself) that this team has enough mental toughness and true leadership to win anything more than maybe 40 games. They certainly won't be able to do anything in the playoffs when push comes to shove.

Regarding why Saunders was passed over. Who knows. Why was Whiteside passed over? Whyn was Lin passed over? What caused teams to shy away from Galloway? All those guys mentioned are NBA roster players. Note that I don't think anyone is finding Scottie Pippen amongst the undrafted free agents, just a decent player, young and cheap. And by decent, we are talking about someone who is occupying the like the 12th -15th roster spot.

I'll tell you why Whiteside was passed over. He was passed over cause teams felt that he didn't have the mental makeup to play in the NBA despite game changing physical tools and upside. Whitesides' interviews scared the death out of teams. That's why he was passed up on despite his upside and elite tools.

But for every Whiteside and Lin do you know how many hundreds of guys that are passed up on never do ****? Cause they aren't talented enough. Honestly, do you think that guys that were passed up on didn't have the desire to do "whatever it takes" to make an NBA team? Sure they do. But the harsh reality is that most of them don't have the talent. Mind is willing but body and skill is just enough.

Also again...I'm not sure what you mean by cheap. I posted this already, appears you didn't bother reading it, but veterans that are signed to veteran minimums have approximately 50% of their salary paid for by the NBA. The purpose was specifically to offset and make it easier on teams to be willing to sign older players in stead of just the cheapest guys possible (which are your unsigned rookies). Unsigned rookies DO NOT have any portion of their salaried picked up by the NBA. So there really is little savings (the cheap) part.

As far as decent goes? Way to stretch the world to cover guys that essentially suck. If Atkins or Saunders is decent then Bargnani is terrific.

Well, I'll bite. Please list the vets available who will make the Knicks better. I think for them to have "a locker room presence" they still have to be able to actually play, even a little, for the "young guys" to listen, so I'd think that removes Elton Brand and Shawn Marion right away.

HUH? So you have these "great behaving", "hard working", "I love these guys" youngsters in the locker room and they would have no idea who Elton Brand or Shawn Marion is to bother wanting to listen to them? Are you serious? Didn't think this statement of yours out to well did you?

But ok, who's to say that they wouldn't play? Because it doesn't fit and you don't want to believe it? Who is the Knicks stating PF right now? Porzingis? Do you actually honestly believe that the Knicks going to really force feed him that many minutes? Who else? Let's be a little realistic about the makeup of this team shall we?

You have Carmelo Anthony coming off season ending injury. You have Robin Lopez who isn't exactly known for his durability and who has averaged more than 28mpg only once in his career. You have Kyle O'Quinn who has averaged 15mpg for his career and who also has missed portions of seasons due to injury. Derrick Williams could do well or he could be forcing the Knick to be scrambling for someone to fill his spot and minutes if he flubs. Porzingis is a rookie who played 1-2 games a week in Spain and who I can't see the Knicks wanting to push. They have no true SF on the roster unless they add Thanasis to the roster.

So...yeah...guys like Brand, Marion, Prince, etc. can most definitely get minutes on this team. Doesn't have to be big minutes, but I think some of you guys are imagining ideal situations which rarely ever happens.

To give you an idea...in the 2012-2013 season, Rasheed Wallace played in only 21 games averaging just 14mpg. Kenyon Martin played in only 18 games. But their presence on the team, on the bench, in the locker room was felt even though they weren't playing. So why would Wallace and Martin (two hardnosed vets that knew how to win) have impacted that team but guys like Brand and Marion and Prince and such wouldn't unless they were playing?

[moocow007]

And I guess Bobby Marks agrees with all those that would have preferred we spent the money for hernangomez than give the picks up.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/BobbyMarks42/status/625484982044241920[/tweet]

But is it really that hard to get 2nd round picks nowadays? If so, then we should be flambéing Jackson as Jackson has traded away every Knicks 2nd round pick through 2019. Can't have your cake and eat it too.

EDIT: Make that traded away every 2nd round pick through 2021.

[Thugger HBC]

And I guess Bobby Marks agrees with all those that would have preferred we spent the money for hernangomez than give the picks up.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/BobbyMarks42/status/625484982044241920[/tweet]

Teams are offering 2nds like candy. They are certainly not hard to get. Perhaps he means unprotected 1sts.

[moocow007]

And I guess Bobby Marks agrees with all those that would have preferred we spent the money for hernangomez than give the picks up.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/BobbyMarks42/status/625484982044241920[/tweet]

Teams are offering 2nds like candy. They are certainly not hard to get. Perhaps he means unprotected 1sts.

Yeah that's what I'm thinking too. That or maybe he's the one taking the pics in the Derrick Williams posts in the DWill thread?

[Thugger HBC]

And I guess Bobby Marks agrees with all those that would have preferred we spent the money for hernangomez than give the picks up.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/BobbyMarks42/status/625484982044241920[/tweet]

Teams are offering 2nds like candy. They are certainly not hard to get. Perhaps he means unprotected 1sts.

Yeah that's what I'm thinking too. That or maybe he's the one taking the pics in the Derrick Williams posts in the DWill thread?

I'm liking this fence life fam. No Phil dissin from me. I'm gonna just sit back, watch and enjoy. If we win, I'm happy...if we dont...whatever.

[3toheadmelo]

really wished jason kidd stayed with us 1 more year. man we coulda made noise that year in the playoffs. amare was playing great as a starter, jr finally got back into a groove as a starter, shump finally found his role on the bench. we needed a vet to keep that team in check

[N Y K]

And I guess Bobby Marks agrees with all those that would have preferred we spent the money for hernangomez than give the picks up.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/BobbyMarks42/status/625484982044241920[/tweet]

Teams are offering 2nds like candy. They are certainly not hard to get. Perhaps he means unprotected 1sts.

Yeah that's what I'm thinking too. That or maybe he's the one taking the pics in the Derrick Williams posts in the DWill thread?

Nope, think he genuinely sees second rounders as hard to purchase
[tweet]https://twitter.com/bobbymarks42/status/625482804076380160[/tweet]

[Johnny Hoops]

Who Atkins? 6'7.5'-6.8". He's basically a slightly heavier less skilled version of Lance Thomas.

I was kind of hoping for a Antonio Davis comparison. Re-checking Knicks vs Spurs game he gave up zero buckets in 20 mins guarding Wear, Early and Ndour. He showed aggressively, kept people in front of him and seemed pretty physical. I see very little offensively and I don't see a shot blocker. I would think he projects as a dirty work PF type but he doesn't look like an outstanding rebounder either - does not look relentless going for the ball. Summer league stats overall were not impressive in terms of filling up stat sheet and his minutes declined over the course of the league.

While I can understand the Knicks wanting to bring in hard working physical guys, I don't see this as anything more than giving the other players that might actually make this team a meat puppet to battle in training camp. It's basically $100-200k of guaranteed money (what I'm guessing is the guaranteed portion of the deal...it's basically what the guarantee for Ledo was for this upcoming season) to rent him for the summer (minimally) and then put him on the D-League team for the upcoming D-League season to help the W Knicks play better. I don't see him making this team at all this season with basically more proven players of the same exact type (Lance Thomas and Louis Amdunson) already signed. It definitely does not seem like Jackson is looking for the next Hassan Whiteside or some such guy and is just looking for low ceilinged solid guys to inundate this organization with. Me? If I actually trusted my player development staff, I'd be looking for that high risk high reward type (which neither Saunders nor Atkins is by any stretch) and saying, you guys get something from this.

Honestly, I don't get the point of either signing...definitely not Atkins.

Sounds a tad harsh. The kid won multiple defensive awards including I believed College DPOY award then he goes out and goes 20/10/2 at P-Smith tourney. I think in grand scheme of things he has more potential then most no-name guys that fill camp fodder roles. In any event I'm just hoping for the beds for these signings.

[isiah_thomas]

Chris_Reichert

Former Cavs and Canton Charge big man Alex Kirk is negotiating on deal with Union Olympija in Slovenia via @ETSportando #DLeagueAlum

[The Lamma]

Chris_Reichert

Former Cavs and Canton Charge big man Alex Kirk is negotiating on deal with Union Olympija in Slovenia via @ETSportando #DLeagueAlum

No Kirk Nowitzki. Our chip has sailed.

[earthmansurfer]

Chris_Reichert

Former Cavs and Canton Charge big man Alex Kirk is negotiating on deal with Union Olympija in Slovenia via @ETSportando #DLeagueAlum

That my friends is good news.
There can be no mistake made now...

[earthmansurfer]

I think a vet big would be good

Sweetney is available

Get that guy on a Paleo / low carb diet, and he could be a player...

[mpharris36]

there is a huge difference between early 2nd rounders and late 2nd rounders. Anything mid or late 2nd rounder is not very valuable in a trade. But early 2nd rounders can and will be very valuable. It is why Phil pulled the trade for 2nd rounders to get Hernangomez. Hernangomez if he was ready to come over and play in the US this year would probably be a 1st round pick. So Phil thought he could acquire what he thought talent wise was 1st first round pick value for two 2nd round picks.

It will be like getting a 1st round pick next year when we don't have one.