2020 Presidential Election Thread: The Homestretch

[HarthorneWingo]

I’m not a radical leftist (or, I guess, a ‘progressive’) so much of her views seem ridiculous to me. Her policies seem to all stem from the millennial ‘woke’ movement, not all of which is based in reality.

For example, killing the Amazon deal in Long Island City helped nobody except give her more clout. She says she’s fighting for jobs - that would have added thousands upon thousands of permanent jobs. She has no business sense and I think a major part of being a political leader is understanding the economy and how it works. Simply saying ‘equal pay for all!, no more poverty!’ with no realistic plan to get there solves nothing.

Shes young and she knows how to speak to the young people of today. She’s smart and knows how to get her points across to her audience. I just don’t agree with radical economic and healthcare policies and never will. Her ideas have been tried in other countries and failed miserably.

Yes, the woman who graduated cum laude from Boston University with a degree in economics doesn't understand the economy

I don’t care what she graduated in. Her economic policies suck and aren’t based on any realistic models for sustainability. People can treat her like a God, that’s on them. The issue is I don’t treat any politicians like Gods - even the ones I like.

At the end of the day, the majority of people in politics aren’t in it for the right reasons. Self interest always tops all. So I’m not about to sit her and pretend that Democrats and Republicans are ‘transparent’ because none of them are. There is always an ulterior motive for political actions. I just support the ulterior motives that will benefit more people than hurt them. Treating politics as anything more than a ‘Game of Thrones’ scenario doesn’t make sense to me.

Then what are you doing in the Politics thread? Look, there’s a lot of parsing and research you have to do to figure out what’s what. If you’re frustrated with the system, I get that. But not everyone is the same as you would suggest. Remi laid it out perfectly for you and yet you responded as if you didn’t even read it. You just came here simply to rant, not listen or learn. If you know it all already, then why come here?

And AOC graduated from Brown University (Ivy League), not Boston University, also a fine university but not as good as Boston College and certainly not as fine as Brown.

[HarthorneWingo]

Speaking of AOC

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/ocasio-cortez-trump-presidential-debate-climate-policy_n_5f925485c5b695a32fb1fb12

Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (D-N.Y.) delivered a signature Twitter takedown after she was name-checked by President Donald Trump over her climate policy during Thursday’s nationally televised presidential debate.

Ocasio-Cortez and her progressive House colleagues Ayanna Pressley (D-Mass.), Ilhan Omar (D-Minn.) and Rashida Tlaib (D-Mich.) were called out by the president in his debate with Democratic nominee Joe Biden in Nashville.

“You know who developed it? AOC plus three,” the president said of Biden’s climate plan.

“They know nothing about the climate. I mean she’s got a good line of stuff, but she knows nothing about the climate, and they’re all hopping through hoops for AOC plus three. Not a real plan. It costs $100 trillion.”

Trump has repeatedly conflated Biden’s plans to mitigate climate change with the set of policy proposals known as the Green New Deal, introduced by Ocasio-Cortez and Sen. Ed Markey (D-Mass.) in 2019. Biden has offered praise for it, but his own policy is different.

Biden appointed Ocasio-Cortez as co-chair of his climate policy task force earlier this year, which released a number of proposals in July that make no mention of the Green New Deal. His proposals include moving all electric power off fossil fuels by 2035, increasing energy efficiency by upgrading 4 million buildings and 2 million homes over four years, installing 500 million solar panels in the next five years and shifting major cities toward zero-emission public transportation options.

Ocasio-Cortez took Trump’s shoutout as an opportunity to point out far more than four lawmakers offered support for the Green New Deal:

Read on Twitter

?s=20

[G_K_F]

Yes, the woman who graduated cum laude from Boston University with a degree in economics doesn't understand the economy

I don’t care what she graduated in. Her economic policies suck and aren’t based on any realistic models for sustainability. People can treat her like a God, that’s on them. The issue is I don’t treat any politicians like Gods - even the ones I like.

At the end of the day, the majority of people in politics aren’t in it for the right reasons. Self interest always tops all. So I’m not about to sit her and pretend that Democrats and Republicans are ‘transparent’ because none of them are. There is always an ulterior motive for political actions. I just support the ulterior motives that will benefit more people than hurt them. Treating politics as anything more than a ‘Game of Thrones’ scenario doesn’t make sense to me.

Then what are you doing in the Politics thread? Look, there’s a lot of parsing and research you have to do to figure out what’s what. If you’re frustrated with the system, I get that. But not everyone is the same as you would suggest. Remi laid it out perfectly for you and yet you responded as if you didn’t even read it. You just came here simply to rant, not listen or learn. If you know it all already, then why come here?

And AOC graduated from Brown University (Ivy League), not Boston University, also a fine university but not as good as Boston College and certainly not as fine as Brown.

What he laid out to me has nothing to do with that I said and certainly is from a politically slanted point of view.

The problem is that people get so perplexed when you actually don’t have any rooting interest in politics. They literally can’t create an argument so then they blame you for not being on either side because you’re uneducated and want to take the easy way out. Or that you’re unwilling to listen. When on the contrary, all I’m doing is listening. I’m listening to everyone speak and I hear a lot of BS from, as our friend put it, “both sides”.

Maybe I’m just open minded and I’m not wrapped up in partisanship like this country is today. It’s sad that you can’t have an opinion today without it being one extreme or another extreme and then a bunch of yelling between the 2 extremes that ultimately leads to nothing but insults and accusations. You know who pays the price in the end? The American people.

But hey, I’ll see myself out. I know having any opinion that isn’t extreme left/right nowadays is like being an alien so nothing I say will go over here. Appreciate the discussion.

All that being said, Biden 2020.

[Clyde_Style]

Covid is trending upwards pretty hard and we're only at the beginning of flu season. It's going to keep getting worse before election day

[robillionaire]

It was related to the climate change plan and that it's something AOC + 3 came up with, not Biden. I tend to agree that I don't see the fascination with AOC, nice back story and everything, but it's hard to build meaningful credibility without much of a track record.

She came up because she was a lead role on Biden's Climate committee. You can hear Stephanie Kelton and AOC's influence in the rhetoric Biden uses toward Green Investments.

AOC's clout comes from a few things. She knocked out the third highest ranking Senate member to win, that's a big deal. She's routinely one of the biggest fundraisers in the party and does it on small dollar donations. Her fundraising power also comes without the need to spend half her time making phone calls to donors. That's translated to her being very good in Committee Hearings; Katie Porter is the only one that's had as many memorable moments in questioning this cycle.

I think "self-promoter" tends to coincide with stances she takes that give voice to activists but that aren't understood more broadly.

- I've seen her tagged with self-promotion for showing up to support the Sunrise Movement...after that she used their input while working on the Green New Deal (and then she shot ads for Ed Markey while his race was still tight with Kennedy).

- Her 70% top tax rate comment blew up and sparked discussions that are worth revisiting from moderates who'd like to defend Biden from the same exact attacks for his top tax rate being attacked for reaching the 60's.

- Her challenges to ICE and visit to the detention center is another place where people tried to ridicule her and say it was a stunt. Except she's one of the few politicians (the rest of the squad too) that continued to push the Abolish ICE concept when the mainstream conversation had moved on to new controversies. This week children being separated from parents was back on the debate stage and a new report accuses ICE agents of torturing African Asylum seekers to get them to sign deportation orders.

- She also had a dust up with the DCCC over paying dues. They had just threatened to blacklist anybody that helped incumbent challengers (an obvious attack on the progressive strategy of the last 5 years or so). Her response was to not pay the dues but to make donations to candidates that fit progressive principles. The Courage to Change PAC's list of endorsements has a number of winners that will absolutely bolster the Squad's numbers and add more weight if they move collectively.

So on Climate Change, Immigration, Taxation and Empowering progressive candidates; she's actually helped us advance causes and improve our positions on the left. She's got holes in her game (foreign policy is a weakness for sure) but I think the idea of "self-promotion" with regards to her has been overblown as hell.

Also to add on to Wingo's post about AOC on Twitch. That's another example where she could be painted a shameless self-promoter. But she called attention to New Yorkers that they can vote for Biden/Harris on the WFP line which will help a progressive organization AND Biden. She discussed what universal healthcare is like in Europe with Hbomberguy (who she supported when he raised money for Transrights as well). She has a bigger platform than anyone could have expected but she's used it to signal boost the causes she always backed and she's been pretty effective on a number of them.

I’m not a radical leftist (or, I guess, a ‘progressive’) so much of her views seem ridiculous to me. Her policies seem to all stem from the millennial ‘woke’ movement, not all of which is based in reality.

For example, killing the Amazon deal in Long Island City helped nobody except give her more clout. She says she’s fighting for jobs - that would have added thousands upon thousands of permanent jobs. She has no business sense and I think a major part of being a political leader is understanding the economy and how it works. Simply saying ‘equal pay for all!, no more poverty!’ with no realistic plan to get there solves nothing.

Shes young and she knows how to speak to the young people of today. She’s smart and knows how to get her points across to her audience. I just don’t agree with radical economic and healthcare policies and never will. Her ideas have been tried in other countries and failed miserably.

It's a misconception that AOC killed the amazon deal. Workers demanded a union negotiation and amazon said no and took their ball to go exploit other people. AOC supported with the workers in their demands for better conditions and I commend her. You should be mad at the unending greed of Amazon. Her healthcare policies are already in most other countries and are successful. This one is failing and allowing people to die. That's radical.

[Oscirus]

Sucks that Illhan, Omar and Rashida get **** without even getting acknowledged by name

[HarthorneWingo]

I don’t care what she graduated in. Her economic policies suck and aren’t based on any realistic models for sustainability. People can treat her like a God, that’s on them. The issue is I don’t treat any politicians like Gods - even the ones I like.

At the end of the day, the majority of people in politics aren’t in it for the right reasons. Self interest always tops all. So I’m not about to sit her and pretend that Democrats and Republicans are ‘transparent’ because none of them are. There is always an ulterior motive for political actions. I just support the ulterior motives that will benefit more people than hurt them. Treating politics as anything more than a ‘Game of Thrones’ scenario doesn’t make sense to me.

Then what are you doing in the Politics thread? Look, there’s a lot of parsing and research you have to do to figure out what’s what. If you’re frustrated with the system, I get that. But not everyone is the same as you would suggest. Remi laid it out perfectly for you and yet you responded as if you didn’t even read it. You just came here simply to rant, not listen or learn. If you know it all already, then why come here?

And AOC graduated from Brown University (Ivy League), not Boston University, also a fine university but not as good as Boston College and certainly not as fine as Brown.

What he laid out to me has nothing to do with that I said and certainly is from a politically slanted point of view.

The problem is that people get so perplexed when you actually don’t have any rooting interest in politics. They literally can’t create an argument so then they blame you for not being on either side because you’re uneducated and want to take the easy way out. Or that you’re unwilling to listen. When on the contrary, all I’m doing is listening. I’m listening to everyone speak and I hear a lot of BS from, as our friend put it, “both sides”.

Maybe I’m just open minded and I’m not wrapped up in partisanship like this country is today. It’s sad that you can’t have an opinion today without it being one extreme or another extreme and then a bunch of yelling between the 2 extremes that ultimately leads to nothing but insults and accusations. You know who pays the price in the end? The American people.

But hey, I’ll see myself out. I know having any opinion that isn’t extreme left/right nowadays is like being an alien so nothing I say will go over here. Appreciate the discussion.

All that being said, Biden 2020.

See? You've done your homework and made an informed decision. Good job.

You don't need to be partisan at all. I'd vote for a Martian if they ran and had the right policies. I supported Bernie, who's a self-proclaimed "democratic socialist." People went nuts over that moniker even though Sanders' policies are the most popular in the country. Yes, I completely agree with you, the partisanship sucks and it turns off a lot of people. Me too. I wish it wasn't like this today but in this world of misinformation it's difficult for casual voters to figure out fact from fiction. There's room for frustration from a lot of corners. We have to fix our government. Get the big money out of politics and get rid of the electoral college. If we can get those things done, I believe it would make a big difference here.

[HarthorneWingo]

Sucks that Illhan, Omar and Rashida get **** without even getting acknowledged by name

Trump was too high on cocaine to remember them. Three letters (AOC)? That, he can do.

[HarthorneWingo]

Get ready to rumble

Read on Twitter

?s=20

[robillionaire]

I don’t care what she graduated in. Her economic policies suck and aren’t based on any realistic models for sustainability. People can treat her like a God, that’s on them. The issue is I don’t treat any politicians like Gods - even the ones I like.

At the end of the day, the majority of people in politics aren’t in it for the right reasons. Self interest always tops all. So I’m not about to sit her and pretend that Democrats and Republicans are ‘transparent’ because none of them are. There is always an ulterior motive for political actions. I just support the ulterior motives that will benefit more people than hurt them. Treating politics as anything more than a ‘Game of Thrones’ scenario doesn’t make sense to me.

Then what are you doing in the Politics thread? Look, there’s a lot of parsing and research you have to do to figure out what’s what. If you’re frustrated with the system, I get that. But not everyone is the same as you would suggest. Remi laid it out perfectly for you and yet you responded as if you didn’t even read it. You just came here simply to rant, not listen or learn. If you know it all already, then why come here?

And AOC graduated from Brown University (Ivy League), not Boston University, also a fine university but not as good as Boston College and certainly not as fine as Brown.

What he laid out to me has nothing to do with that I said and certainly is from a politically slanted point of view.

The problem is that people get so perplexed when you actually don’t have any rooting interest in politics. They literally can’t create an argument so then they blame you for not being on either side because you’re uneducated and want to take the easy way out. Or that you’re unwilling to listen. When on the contrary, all I’m doing is listening. I’m listening to everyone speak and I hear a lot of BS from, as our friend put it, “both sides”.

Maybe I’m just open minded and I’m not wrapped up in partisanship like this country is today. It’s sad that you can’t have an opinion today without it being one extreme or another extreme and then a bunch of yelling between the 2 extremes that ultimately leads to nothing but insults and accusations. You know who pays the price in the end? The American people.

But hey, I’ll see myself out. I know having any opinion that isn’t extreme left/right nowadays is like being an alien so nothing I say will go over here. Appreciate the discussion.

All that being said, Biden 2020.

The thing is that you are framing it to where everybody else is radical and extreme other than your position, but your position isn't some kind of neutral position that's non-partisan and beyond criticism, it's an ideology of its own whose merits are up for debate and scrutiny just like our ideas are. Not voting lock step with a political party doesn't make the ideas inherently more open-minded or superior, and I say this as an independent myself. From my perspective many aspects of the status quo are extreme and radical. So where do we go from there? Simply asserting radicalism isn't a real argument and neither is the suggestion that your way is the only way because there are no alternatives, or that suggested alternatives are "unrealistic". Yet as I pointed out already with health care, it's not just realistic, it's already in place in most of the world. So you have to demonstrate why it's unrealistic or wouldn't work. Nobody said you can't have an opinion but we can certainly respond to the opinion with our own perspective

[HarthorneWingo]

Then what are you doing in the Politics thread? Look, there’s a lot of parsing and research you have to do to figure out what’s what. If you’re frustrated with the system, I get that. But not everyone is the same as you would suggest. Remi laid it out perfectly for you and yet you responded as if you didn’t even read it. You just came here simply to rant, not listen or learn. If you know it all already, then why come here?

And AOC graduated from Brown University (Ivy League), not Boston University, also a fine university but not as good as Boston College and certainly not as fine as Brown.

What he laid out to me has nothing to do with that I said and certainly is from a politically slanted point of view.

The problem is that people get so perplexed when you actually don’t have any rooting interest in politics. They literally can’t create an argument so then they blame you for not being on either side because you’re uneducated and want to take the easy way out. Or that you’re unwilling to listen. When on the contrary, all I’m doing is listening. I’m listening to everyone speak and I hear a lot of BS from, as our friend put it, “both sides”.

Maybe I’m just open minded and I’m not wrapped up in partisanship like this country is today. It’s sad that you can’t have an opinion today without it being one extreme or another extreme and then a bunch of yelling between the 2 extremes that ultimately leads to nothing but insults and accusations. You know who pays the price in the end? The American people.

But hey, I’ll see myself out. I know having any opinion that isn’t extreme left/right nowadays is like being an alien so nothing I say will go over here. Appreciate the discussion.

All that being said, Biden 2020.

The thing is that you are framing it to where everybody else is radical and extreme other than your position, but your position isn't some kind of neutral position that's non-partisan and beyond criticism, it's an ideology of its own whose merits are up for debate and scrutiny just like our ideas are. Not voting lock step with a political party doesn't make the ideas inherently more open-minded or superior, and I say this as an independent myself. From my perspective many aspects of the status quo are extreme and radical. So where do we go from there? Simply asserting radicalism isn't a real argument and neither is the suggestion that your way is the only way because there are no alternatives, or that suggested alternatives are "unrealistic". Yet as I pointed out already with health care, it's not just realistic, it's already in place in most of the world. So you have to demonstrate why it's unrealistic or wouldn't work. Nobody said you can't have an opinion but we can certainly respond to the opinion with our own perspective

Well stated. I concur.

[robillionaire]

Covid is trending upwards pretty hard and we're only at the beginning of flu season. It's going to keep getting worse before election day

I usually don't think these little petty political digs are funny but this one was pretty clever

be sure to click "learn more"

Read on Twitter

[Clyde_Style]

Covid is trending upwards pretty hard and we're only at the beginning of flu season. It's going to keep getting worse before election day

I usually don't think these little petty political digs are funny but this one was pretty clever

be sure to click "learn more"

Read on Twitter

Well done. It means they can function without the Lincoln Project in the future

[G_K_F]

Then what are you doing in the Politics thread? Look, there’s a lot of parsing and research you have to do to figure out what’s what. If you’re frustrated with the system, I get that. But not everyone is the same as you would suggest. Remi laid it out perfectly for you and yet you responded as if you didn’t even read it. You just came here simply to rant, not listen or learn. If you know it all already, then why come here?

And AOC graduated from Brown University (Ivy League), not Boston University, also a fine university but not as good as Boston College and certainly not as fine as Brown.

What he laid out to me has nothing to do with that I said and certainly is from a politically slanted point of view.

The problem is that people get so perplexed when you actually don’t have any rooting interest in politics. They literally can’t create an argument so then they blame you for not being on either side because you’re uneducated and want to take the easy way out. Or that you’re unwilling to listen. When on the contrary, all I’m doing is listening. I’m listening to everyone speak and I hear a lot of BS from, as our friend put it, “both sides”.

Maybe I’m just open minded and I’m not wrapped up in partisanship like this country is today. It’s sad that you can’t have an opinion today without it being one extreme or another extreme and then a bunch of yelling between the 2 extremes that ultimately leads to nothing but insults and accusations. You know who pays the price in the end? The American people.

But hey, I’ll see myself out. I know having any opinion that isn’t extreme left/right nowadays is like being an alien so nothing I say will go over here. Appreciate the discussion.

All that being said, Biden 2020.

The thing is that you are framing it to where everybody else is radical and extreme other than your position, but your position isn't some kind of neutral position that's non-partisan and beyond criticism, it's an ideology of its own whose merits are up for debate and scrutiny just like our ideas are. Not voting lock step with a political party doesn't make the ideas inherently more open-minded or superior, and I say this as an independent myself. From my perspective many aspects of the status quo are extreme and radical. So where do we go from there? Simply asserting radicalism isn't a real argument and neither is the suggestion that your way is the only way because there are no alternatives, or that suggested alternatives are "unrealistic". Yet as I pointed out already with health care, it's not just realistic, it's already in place in most of the world. So you have to demonstrate why it's unrealistic or wouldn't work. Nobody said you can't have an opinion but we can certainly respond to the opinion with our own perspective

Fair enough.

Which countries that have the population of the USA have the universal healthcare you’re referring to?

[j4remi]

I’m not a radical leftist (or, I guess, a ‘progressive’) so much of her views seem ridiculous to me. Her policies seem to all stem from the millennial ‘woke’ movement, not all of which is based in reality.

The whole point of my post is that she takes "radical" ideas and condenses them into more digestable bits for people who would otherwise dismiss them. She grounds those ideas in lived experiences that are relatable so people can realize that the policies are in fact built on realistic goals.

For example, killing the Amazon deal in Long Island City helped nobody except give her more clout. She says she’s fighting for jobs - that would have added thousands upon thousands of permanent jobs. She has no business sense and I think a major part of being a political leader is understanding the economy and how it works. Simply saying ‘equal pay for all!, no more poverty!’ with no realistic plan to get there solves nothing.

The Amazon deal is a good example of AOC and the left having a real complaint and people talking past it instead of addressing it. I do not believe that people have to side with the city officials or AOC or the others; but there were material concerns behind the complaints that a jobs projection doesn't even attempt to address.

The Uniformed Land Use Review process was bypassed. This might not be a big deal but that land had already accounted for in a plan that included a public school, housing and other public spaces. City Council would have been able to use the ULURP to have some input on the land that was already going to give back to and bring value to the community. It's not a case of "25,000 jobs or nothing." It's a projection that may or may not be met of 25K jobs versus a projected school, housing, parks, production spaces and everything else that was already planned.

That doesn't mean that the HQ2 deal might not produce all of the same. But it's never guaranteed that they'd meet the number of jobs it promised (I'd bet it misses some quotas in a pandemic). I think the skepticism is especially warranted because of the secrecy of the negotiations and the fact that Amazon pulled out when NYC conceded to allowing a panel review of the project.

During the whole debacle, Jumaane Williams (now NYC Public Advocate) pushed legislation that would remove the ability for the city to sign NDAs like the ones involved in the entire HQ2 application situation...
https://ny.curbed.com/2018/12/20/18150100/amazon-hq2-nda-new-york-city-council

The secrecy meant that we got op-eds from Christie and Cuomo about how great the deal was but not the concrete details that concerned parties were hoping for. Instead we got op-eds and attacks that basically came down to "look at all the money this is supposed to produce, that could build schools, housing and parks" as a response to people saying "you just took away land that was already going to be schools, housing and parks." The take our word for it aspect was met with skepticism because the reviews were bypassed.

Also, I think it's helpful to ask what happened to that land after HQ2 fell through? It looks like it became part of a bigger ambitious plan for space and more that I'd assume will actually have to pass the type of land use Reviews that Amazon chose to leave the deal over...

https://licpost.com/developers-unveil-big-plans-for-lic-waterfront-up-to-12-million-square-feet-planned

So it's not like the HQ2 deal goes away and the land just dies. The parks, the schools and new housing go up. I'd bet that will create some jobs as well. I'd still want community and city council members involved in how ALL of that is implemented, the same as the HQ2 deal. But the magnification of the "tax credits" portion completely blocked out the "land grants without oversight" part that was a much bigger part of the left's complaint.

Shes young and she knows how to speak to the young people of today. She’s smart and knows how to get her points across to her audience. I just don’t agree with radical economic and healthcare policies and never will. Her ideas have been tried in other countries and failed miserably.

What other ideas of hers do you consider failures in other countries? I'd prefer specific policies to a socialism boogeyman, she's more Soc Dem than anything and those policies exist to varying degrees of success elsewhere. Universal Healthcare being the best example.

[Clyde_Style]

Read on Twitter

[Capn'O]

Covid is trending upwards pretty hard and we're only at the beginning of flu season. It's going to keep getting worse before election day

I usually don't think these little petty political digs are funny but this one was pretty clever

be sure to click "learn more"

Read on Twitter

There was a good while when Pete Buttigieg's policy page (or maybe manually writing in the /policy) went to a file not found page. I laughed anyway.

[robillionaire]

What he laid out to me has nothing to do with that I said and certainly is from a politically slanted point of view.

The problem is that people get so perplexed when you actually don’t have any rooting interest in politics. They literally can’t create an argument so then they blame you for not being on either side because you’re uneducated and want to take the easy way out. Or that you’re unwilling to listen. When on the contrary, all I’m doing is listening. I’m listening to everyone speak and I hear a lot of BS from, as our friend put it, “both sides”.

Maybe I’m just open minded and I’m not wrapped up in partisanship like this country is today. It’s sad that you can’t have an opinion today without it being one extreme or another extreme and then a bunch of yelling between the 2 extremes that ultimately leads to nothing but insults and accusations. You know who pays the price in the end? The American people.

But hey, I’ll see myself out. I know having any opinion that isn’t extreme left/right nowadays is like being an alien so nothing I say will go over here. Appreciate the discussion.

All that being said, Biden 2020.

The thing is that you are framing it to where everybody else is radical and extreme other than your position, but your position isn't some kind of neutral position that's non-partisan and beyond criticism, it's an ideology of its own whose merits are up for debate and scrutiny just like our ideas are. Not voting lock step with a political party doesn't make the ideas inherently more open-minded or superior, and I say this as an independent myself. From my perspective many aspects of the status quo are extreme and radical. So where do we go from there? Simply asserting radicalism isn't a real argument and neither is the suggestion that your way is the only way because there are no alternatives, or that suggested alternatives are "unrealistic". Yet as I pointed out already with health care, it's not just realistic, it's already in place in most of the world. So you have to demonstrate why it's unrealistic or wouldn't work. Nobody said you can't have an opinion but we can certainly respond to the opinion with our own perspective

Fair enough.

Which countries that have the population of the USA have the universal healthcare you’re referring to?

out of the top 13 countries by population 11 of them have some form of universal or free health care and the other two are the USA and Nigeria and the USA is many times richer than any of them.

If the suggestion is that we have too many people to provide basic functions or to ensure a minimum quality of life for our people which essentially fits the definition of a failed state, maybe we should cease to exist as a large country and break up into smaller ones, so we can then have health care. I don't think that's the case though. This is the richest country in the world. We have the money and we have the means. The only reason we don't is because of the lobbyists in the health insurance industry and drug companies who would like to continue to make profits in the form of blood money.

[HarthorneWingo]

Covid is trending upwards pretty hard and we're only at the beginning of flu season. It's going to keep getting worse before election day

The middle of the country up through the Dakotas are getting hammered. Following their leader, the Orange Pied Piper, off the cliff.

[robillionaire]

Covid is trending upwards pretty hard and we're only at the beginning of flu season. It's going to keep getting worse before election day

The middle of the country up through the Dakotas are getting hammered. Following their leader, the Orange Pied Piper, off the cliff.

The sad thing is that they will take many innocent people over the cliff with them.