[Camelo Thread] - Update: He's Pushing for NYK! Part 5

[dk7th]

walsh's foot is on the nugget front office's neck. he has all the leverage and they have zero leverage. the nuggets are not going to have any takers-- at all!

some of you guys really kill me. why are you indulging trade scenarios where the knicks give up so much value for a player who is going to be a free agent in less than 60 games and has no intention of signing elsewhere? we don't owe denver anything.

no to chandler-- he's just taken a quantum leap in shooting and recognizing what the defense is giving him
no to gallo-- he spaces the floor and doesn't need touches to have a huge positive effect on the team
no to fields-- no way no how
no to mozgov-- he needs time and will come into his own
no to turiaf-- heart, maturity and leadership and humor, clutch fouler, and every locker room needs a guy like him

curry, mason, and randolph and let them find a fricking pick for randolph.

The Knicks still have to offer a package that:

a) ...beats out teams' rental offer -- Beaubois + 1st round picks; Orton/Gortat + 1st round picks. These aren't good packages, but they're still better than your proposed Randolph/Mason garbage.

b) ...is "better than nothing." It has to be enough so that by the deadline, Denver decides accepting our package is better than waiting till the summer and getting nothing but future 1sts. Does Randolph/Mason accomplish that? Hardly. If I were Denver GM, I'd hang up the phone and not listen to any other offers.

aren't they going into rebuild mode?

if yes then 11.3 million, mason, and randolph are competitive offers. bottom line even if he gets traded he still goes at the end of the season as a free agent. so, again, why would walsh feel compelled to give up any value at all?

let the denver gm hang up o walsh. anthony has made his intentions clear regardless.

[ThePrez86]

Chandler is not untradeable. I like him a lot but I'd be happy to move him if I thought he'd bring back a major upgrade to a relatively weak area of the team. I don't want to trade for a player just for the sake of trading for a player or just because a player may have a big name. I want a guy whose game will actually fill weak areas on the team and complement and accentuate the other players already on the roster.

Generally speaking, even aside from Carmelo, I think some people fail to get the idea that not every player (even the so-called superstars) is a great fit for every team. Player A might help Team X a lot. That same Player A might help Team Y only a little. And that same Player A might actually hurt Team Z. It's not enough to just throw in another big name. You have to consider how he will fit in.

If you're making a plea for intelligent discourse, it's probably not a good idea to accuse everyone who disagrees with you about "Melo of being a starf***er.

I don't see any compelling argument that suggests Carmelo Anthony won't "fit" on a team that has been playing well for all of 3 weeks. I think Mike D'Antoni had an adjustment after the first Denver game, and he can do so again to get the best out of the TALENT available to him, and 'Melo represents an upgrade in talent.

'Melo can't be left alone on the floor, anywhere. No, he's not a great threat from behind the arc, but play off of him, he can catch it there adn get a running start to the basket, where he is as deadly as anyone in the game.

The idea that the Knicks spacing will suffer with him is frankly ludicrous.

I don't know of anything close to a comparable upgrade in talent that one can reasonably anticipate to be available to the Knicks at the 5 in the next 14 months.

i don't think the Knicks are a "need" away from legit contention. I think they're still a fair amount of 36 minutes a night talent away.

And as far as offense is concerned, that might be the one thing the Knicks could actually use - a sharpshooter from 3.

But the Knicks don't really need offense anyway. What they need is defense. They need better defenders both inside and out. Melo doesn't represent much of an improvement (if any) in those areas.

And even all the basketball talk aside, I've never even liked his body language. He strikes me as a sulker - if he doesn't win or get his touches, he sulks. If something doesn't go his way on the court, he takes exception instead of just putting his head down and redoubling his efforts. Stoudemire strikes me as having a great attitude with great body language. Same with Felton. Same with Turiaf. Anthony strikes me more as a punk. What he MIGHT bring to this team with his physical skills, he MIGHT also subtract with his personality.

[ThePrez86]

Also, to the people saying that acquiring Melo would help relieve the minutes on the Knicks' starters, I'm not really clear on how you add depth by trading some combination of Gallo/Chandler/Fields to get him.

Are you opposed to dealing for him if we only have to give up one of the above? Say one of those three, AR (or a first rounder), Billy walker and second round pick...would you still be opposed to adding Melo? As far as I'm concerned, that's an upgrade to the line-up if you move either of the F's...the only issue if you move Fields is that you don't have a legit 2, though we didn't think Fields could be one at first either.

Yes, I'm opposed. I don't even necessarily want him. But either way, he's not putting the 2010-11 Knicks over-the-top for a championship. Why not just play the year out, see what we have here over the course of a full season, and re-evaluate in the offseason? Why not have some patience? He'll still be available either way. And if you still want him in the summer, you don't have to give up all that to get him.

[ThePrez86]

Also, to the people saying that acquiring Melo would help relieve the minutes on the Knicks' starters, I'm not really clear on how you add depth by trading some combination of Gallo/Chandler/Fields to get him.

Are you opposed to dealing for him if we only have to give up one of the above? Say one of those three, AR (or a first rounder), Billy walker and second round pick...would you still be opposed to adding Melo? As far as I'm concerned, that's an upgrade to the line-up if you move either of the F's...the only issue if you move Fields is that you don't have a legit 2, though we didn't think Fields could be one at first either.

Yes, I'm opposed. I don't even necessarily want him. But either way, he's not putting the 2010-11 Knicks over-the-top for a championship. Why not just play the year out, see what we have here over the course of a full season, and re-evaluate in the offseason? Why not have some patience? He'll still be available either way (and some other players might be available too). And if you still want him in the summer, you don't have to give up all that to get him.

[aggo]

would you rather have Melo getting Chandler's shots and touches or have Chandler keep them?

Who said anything about Chandler? btw. he is a four Melo is a three.

So your question should really be:

would you rather have Melo getting Gallo's shots and touches or have Gallo keep them?

lol what?

Chandler is a 4?

to clarify, chandler has played 90% of his career at the three.

and before turiaf got hurt, he was having games where he put up 15, 17, 20 shots a game at SF.

[prophet_of_rage]

Ask Phoenix fans about an unhappy Amar'e's body language last year.

Carmelo makes the Knicks better because he is a better player. And yes adding him now interrupts your forward progress for a bit, but you're going to see when the Knicks go up against the Celtics and the Heat that they need a player like Carmelo who can compete with the small forwards in the playoffs and be a go to bucket and get calls.

The argument about Melo versus Gallo or Chandler is the same as the argument of Amar'e versus Lee. There are only so many numbers to get, but it's how the numbers are achieved and against whom. Melo is playoff proven. He's got his numbers in the playoffs against tougher competition. His teams have not been good enough to win.

He also makes the Knicks more attractive to free agents in the future. Better teams are made by having better players.

The problem with the OP is that it assumes that Melo will be traded for Gallo, Fields, Chandler and Landry. There's no indication that is the case.

[Siem]

Ask Phoenix fans about an unhappy Amar'e's body language last year.

Carmelo makes the Knicks better because he is a better player. And yes adding him now interrupts your forward progress for a bit, but you're going to see when the Knicks go up against the Celtics and the Heat that they need a player like Carmelo who can compete with the small forwards in the playoffs and be a go to bucket and get calls.

The argument about Melo versus Gallo or Chandler is the same as the argument of Amar'e versus Lee. There are only so many numbers to get, but it's how the numbers are achieved and against whom. Melo is playoff proven. He's got his numbers in the playoffs against tougher competition. His teams have not been good enough to win.

He also makes the Knicks more attractive to free agents in the future. Better teams are made by having better players.

The problem with the OP is that it assumes that Melo will be traded for Gallo, Fields, Chandler and Landry. There's no indication that is the case.

Ask Phoenix fans about an unhappy Amar'e's body language last year.

Carmelo makes the Knicks better because he is a better player. And yes adding him now interrupts your forward progress for a bit, but you're going to see when the Knicks go up against the Celtics and the Heat that they need a player like Carmelo who can compete with the small forwards in the playoffs and be a go to bucket and get calls.

The argument about Melo versus Gallo or Chandler is the same as the argument of Amar'e versus Lee. There are only so many numbers to get, but it's how the numbers are achieved and against whom. Melo is playoff proven. He's got his numbers in the playoffs against tougher competition. His teams have not been good enough to win.

He also makes the Knicks more attractive to free agents in the future. Better teams are made by having better players.

The problem with the OP is that it assumes that Melo will be traded for Gallo, Fields, Chandler and Landry. There's no indication that is the case.

I Agree, there is no way we're including Fields in a trade for Melo, and i highly doubt wed send WC and Gallo, for what?, One of them in a combo with some other players.both.no. Denver has no leverage.A

[FieldsMedal]

But the Knicks don't really need offense anyway. What they need is defense. They need better defenders both inside and out.

Is that an argument for replacements for Felton/Fields/Gallo and/or Chandler?

[CHARLYMURPHY]

The only trade i would do with them is AR,Gallo, and a 1st round pick..adding more to the trade dosent help us it makes us worse

[towelie]

aren't they going into rebuild mode?

if yes then 11.3 million, mason, and randolph are competitive offers. bottom line even if he gets traded he still goes at the end of the season as a free agent. so, again, why would walsh feel compelled to give up any value at all?

let the denver gm hang up o walsh. anthony has made his intentions clear regardless.

Uhh no, that isn't a competitive offer at all. The fact that you're including Mason as if he has any value whatsoever is laughable.

If you've followed any other thread on Carmelo, you'd also realize that there are costs to signing Melo as a free agent -- namely Chandler, Turiaf, Azubuike, and use of our MLE and LLE. By trading for Melo, we can resign or keep those players (if they weren't included in the trade), and make use of the MLE to fill more needs.

[j4remi]

Also, to the people saying that acquiring Melo would help relieve the minutes on the Knicks' starters, I'm not really clear on how you add depth by trading some combination of Gallo/Chandler/Fields to get him.

Are you opposed to dealing for him if we only have to give up one of the above? Say one of those three, AR (or a first rounder), Billy walker and second round pick...would you still be opposed to adding Melo? As far as I'm concerned, that's an upgrade to the line-up if you move either of the F's...the only issue if you move Fields is that you don't have a legit 2, though we didn't think Fields could be one at first either.

Yes, I'm opposed. I don't even necessarily want him. But either way, he's not putting the 2010-11 Knicks over-the-top for a championship. Why not just play the year out, see what we have here over the course of a full season, and re-evaluate in the offseason? Why not have some patience? He'll still be available either way. And if you still want him in the summer, you don't have to give up all that to get him.

A few reasons I think apply,

a) The Knicks are a better team with Melo...I don't see how people can deny that. Melo has already shown he can co-exist with a ball dominant player (AI and his numbers were sick that year) and has put up nothing but stellar performances in the system when it was implemented for Team USA.

b) We are going to have to rescind Chandler to make space for Melo in the offseason anyway.

c) Melo is not guaranteed to sign with the Knicks. Anything can happen, there is a risk with waiting. We're playing a game of chicken with Denver this way, but so is Melo and the new CBA deal could leave Melo intimidated enough to sign with Denver...or some team like Dallas or Orlando could make a play for Melo and convince him to stay...it doesn't seem all that likely, but it's not out of the question.

d) If we trade for Melo it could put us in a position to have the MLE, someone brought this up in a separate thread. We won't qualify for the MLE otherwise, and that could be valuable money used to sign one of the bigs or a back-up PG in the offseason. That means we still fill the need, even with Melo.

I'm not a fan of the deal if it includes two of our top three prospects (Fields, Chandler, Gallo)...but I'd drop one of them to get Melo, and I'd give up a bit of our depth too because our bench has not impressed me one bit. Having both Melo and Amare affords rest time for both, while each player takes time as a focal point for the offense. They should be able to force teams to go man to man against at least one of the two, that's a pick your poison situation. I don't think this team is elite, and I don't think any of those three youngsters will amount to what Melo is now...Melo imo is a top 10 player and one of the best playoff performers period over the past two or three appearances for his team. He's a natural winner too, he won a NCAA championship and turned around a completely shot Denver team, making them a perennial playoff team despite lacking in many areas. I don't have a problem with people who want to see our own players grow, but I feel that Melo is being short changed a bit. I think he's the piece that puts us in a contender spot with Miami, Boston, Orlando and Chicago...and I don't think any of those four would want to see us in a 7 game series (Orlando being the only team that I don't like as a match-up).

[ThePrez86]

But the Knicks don't really need offense anyway. What they need is defense. They need better defenders both inside and out.

Is that an argument for replacements for Felton/Fields/Gallo and/or Chandler?

Not necessarily. I'm fine getting some defensive stoppers on the bench that can spell those guys for defensive purposes - kinda' like how Charlie Ward used to be the better defensive counterpart to Chris Childs but both shared playing time.

[DishAndSwish]

Also, to the people saying that acquiring Melo would help relieve the minutes on the Knicks' starters, I'm not really clear on how you add depth by trading some combination of Gallo/Chandler/Fields to get him.

Are you opposed to dealing for him if we only have to give up one of the above? Say one of those three, AR (or a first rounder), Billy walker and second round pick...would you still be opposed to adding Melo? As far as I'm concerned, that's an upgrade to the line-up if you move either of the F's...the only issue if you move Fields is that you don't have a legit 2, though we didn't think Fields could be one at first either.

Yes, I'm opposed. I don't even necessarily want him. But either way, he's not putting the 2010-11 Knicks over-the-top for a championship. Why not just play the year out, see what we have here over the course of a full season, and re-evaluate in the offseason? Why not have some patience? He'll still be available either way. And if you still want him in the summer, you don't have to give up all that to get him.

I disagree. I think adding Melo to this roster can make us a legitimate contender this year, as long as get to keep Felton, Amare, and at least two of Chandler/Gallo/Fields. I suspect Donnie may have other deals in the works to balance out the roster a bit more, if he were able to pull off a Melo trade. The guy always seems to be thinking two steps ahead.

[Pharmcat]

aren't they going into rebuild mode?

if yes then 11.3 million, mason, and randolph are competitive offers. bottom line even if he gets traded he still goes at the end of the season as a free agent. so, again, why would walsh feel compelled to give up any value at all?

let the denver gm hang up o walsh. anthony has made his intentions clear regardless.

Uhh no, that isn't a competitive offer at all. The fact that you're including Mason as if he has any value whatsoever is laughable.

If you've followed any other thread on Carmelo, you'd also realize that there are costs to signing Melo as a free agent -- namely Chandler, Turiaf, Azubuike, and use of our MLE and LLE. By trading for Melo, we can resign or keep those players (if they weren't included in the trade), and make use of the MLE to fill more needs.

yep, id take the hit now but retain the flexibility to do things in the summer

but if we are giving up AR/Gallo/Walker/Curry its not much of a hit since only losing one rotational player

[ThePrez86]

I disagree. I think adding Melo to this roster can make us a legitimate contender this year, as long as get to keep Felton, Amare, and at least two of Chandler/Gallo/Fields. I suspect Donnie may have other deals in the works to balance out the roster a bit more, if he were able to pull off a Melo trade. The guy always seems to be thinking two steps ahead.

So adding Melo to the Knicks puts them over-the-top to beat the Heat, Celtics, and Lakers in the playoffs this year? Really?

[K_ick_God]

if melo REALLY wants to come here :

all he needs to do is have one of his handlers leak to sheridan or broussard that he is not worried bout the next cba as he knows the endorsements, citing the study knicks used on lebron, in a big market can make up the difference in the contract

that would corner DEN and force their hand

But I'm sensing that he's eager to get it done. He said it will be resolved by the trade deadline. So I doubt Melo wants to become a FA.

[Hitman33]

Melo and Iverson won 50 games together Melo avg 25.7, 7.4., 3.5 on 49% shooting that yr, actually it was one of his best yrs. So to say he cant play with another ball dominant player is crazy, he played with perhaps the most ball dominant chucker in league history

He lost in the 1st round of the playoffs.

Both years.

That pairing did not work.

[Siem]

I disagree. I think adding Melo to this roster can make us a legitimate contender this year, as long as get to keep Felton, Amare, and at least two of Chandler/Gallo/Fields. I suspect Donnie may have other deals in the works to balance out the roster a bit more, if he were able to pull off a Melo trade. The guy always seems to be thinking two steps ahead.

So adding Melo to the Knicks puts them over-the-top to beat the Heat, Celtics, and Lakers in the playoffs this year? Really?

I'm not saying they would, i'd lean on the side of saying we wouldn't, but e damn sure would have a chance. It's possible. We'd have a solid nucleus and 2 superstars.

I remember the year My Giants won the SB, no1 would have expected us to with N.E., G.B., Dallas etc. out there, but the way I viewed it is we have a chance, even though the other teams were better we had a chance b/c of our pass rush,running game, and Plax was a mismatch..... Now I dont like using nfl/nba comparisons b/c it's a 7game series, but I know you get what I'm saying Prez, we'd def would have a chance of taking down anybody, and The confidence Amare and Melo would bring to the Court is a positive already.

[j4remi]

Melo and Iverson won 50 games together Melo avg 25.7, 7.4., 3.5 on 49% shooting that yr, actually it was one of his best yrs. So to say he cant play with another ball dominant player is crazy, he played with perhaps the most ball dominant chucker in league history

He lost in the 1st round of the playoffs.

Both years.

That pairing did not work.

But that's not Melo's fault...the guy put up very impressive numbers, but his supporting cast was pretty lacking and injury plagued too if I'm not mistaken. I kinda relate it to KG's T'wolves, those teams making the playoffs alone was a miracle.

[Knicker23]

Just because we play in a fast paced offense and put up a lot of points doesn't mean we have an offense that doesn't need more fire power, or that we have a reliable offense that can go up against any team in the league, or that we only need to focus on defense now - which would be the only reasons we wouldn't need Melo. . Amar'e has been putting up ridiculous offensive numbers, record breaking, and we are just getting by against mediocre teams, and it's not simply because of our D. . now, I love the way we're playing, but lets be realistic, Stat can only carry us so far against good teams on the offensive side and down the stretch of games - adding Melo gives you another Stat type player.

We'd have two clutch 'go to' guys down the stretch . . a guy to give the ball to to win the game for us when Amare is in foul trouble / out / having an off night / not scoring 30 pts . .

It's a no brainer to get this guy on our team - the question is what we are willing to part with. . imo, there is no one other than Amare and Felton that is untouchable for Melo - I think Donnie will act with the same mindset. . but if there is an order for who we want to keep, i'd say Fields would def be the next player on that list. . then, personally speaking, Chandler followed by Gallo. .

If we can get Amare Melo Felton and Fields on the same team that be some good ****. . keeping Chandler around would also make me real happy.

But bottom line, we've seen what Stat has done - Melo brings us another player of his caliber. And I think we all can agree that wouldn't be a bad thing . . and you have to think, like Amare, Melos numbers too would go up playing in this system. . . two superstars, plus felton playing in this high octane offense, we'd be blowing teams out left and right, not squeaking by.