Postgame thread: Knicks @ Hornets

[3toheadmelo]

Using block rates to say if you're a good defender is a really poor approach. That would make Whiteside the best defender in the league, by that logic.

[rajajackal]

i would like to find a big player that slides og back to 3 and bridges back to 2. i don't think relying on og to play the 4 longterm is the solution, even though i think it'll work fine for now

[Iron Mantis]

If the issue with KAT is interior presence, then you can't at the same time be saying we should've made the guy who had a significantly worse block rate than Kevin Knox our full time C

Julius Randle, in 330 games over 5 seasons, had 112 blocks for us, good for 38th all time. Taj Gibson, in 175 games over 2 seasons had 125, Robin Lopez in 82 games over 1 season had 129, Wilson Chandler in 233 games over 4 seasons had 210, Kyle O'Quinn in 221 games over 3 seasons had 251, etc.

Also fun fact, Mitch is 2nd all time in total blocks for us with 602, trailing only Ewing with 2,758.

40 Year old 6' Steph Curry literally averages more BPG than Randle.

[Chanel Bomber]

There was no move that was going to bring back iHart or accelerate Mitch's recovery let alone provide certainty on his timeline. They were the identity of the team last year (defense and offensive rebounding).

Having Randle wouldn't address any of those things either.

The Knicks had to trade Randle for KAT.

What really hurts is losing Divo.

[aq_ua]

this team has had a fundamental sea change. it will not be able to operate as it did the last 2 years and will have to find it's identity. that will take time and who knows how it will turn out.

I think that was going to happen trade or no trade...it would of been a little bit easier exchange offensively but still losing Ihart and Mitch being hurt was going to happen regardless so unless we specifically traded for a rim protecting shot blocking/offensive rebounding type big it probably would have looked different. You just can't wake up and replace that style of play.

It looks like we were smaller with KAT at 5 and OG at 4...but could you imagine how smaller we would have looked with Randle at the 5...I don't think we would have been able to survive. I think we would have had to start Sims until Mitch got back.

We are certainly going to have to play faster...switch more...get more steals and get out in transition. The physical grind it out style does not suit the current roster (but that was also kind of forced on there hand with Ihart leaving and Mitch hurt.

If/when Mitch gets back we can start him and go back to a more physical brand and have Hart come off the bench as a spark plug.

yeah sims would have started. he started 11 games last year and 16 the year before. they've survived with it for awhile. i'm not even saying if it's gonna be worse or better, it's just different. i have no idea why people are arguing against that idea.

The type of change is just staggering - it appears that our weaknesses last year are now our strengths (consistent offensive threats other than JB, perimeter defense on the wings), while our strengths last year are now our weaknesses (interior defense, offensive rebounding). I think it's going to take a while for the fan base to accept and embrace the new team identity. The offense will likely be prettier than last year with a roster of players inclined to move the ball, but after a couple of seasons building the team identity around grindy 90's style defense and half court offense, the new dynamic just feels jarring.

[E-Balla]

Read on Twitter

I hope after game 1 we've realized Mitch is necessary at C to make any splash in the playoffs right? Bubble wrap him until March if that's what it takes.

[3toheadmelo]

There was no move that was going to bring back iHart or accelerate Mitch's recovery let alone provide certainty on his timeline. They were the identity of the team (defense and offensivd rebounding).

Having Randle wouldn't address any of those things either.

The Knicks had to trade Randle for KAT.

What really hurts is losing Divo.

KAT doesn't address defense or rebounding. We just saw that man make Nick Richards look way better than he really is yesterday

[3toheadmelo]

Read on Twitter

I hope after game 1 we've realized Mitch is necessary at C to make any splash in the playoffs right? Bubble wrap him until March if that's what it takes.

There's people here in this thread saying KAT played good drop coverage last night Idk wtf people watching

[E-Balla]

I see a lot of Sims hate but I think he looks improved. 10 rebounds in 21 minutes is huge when we are so thin at the 4 and 5. He looks bigger too as Hahn said a couple of times.

My biggest positive of the game. He didn't look lost like he usually does.

[DOT]

40 Year old 6' Steph Curry literally averages more BPG than Randle.

Yeah, this isn't a joke by the way

Steph has averaged 0.4 bpg every year since 2019, with the exception of 2021 where he averaged 0.1

Randle has averaged 0.3 bpg every year for us with the exception of 2022, when he averaged 0.5

It's the same with most of the anti-KAT arguments, in a vacuum you might have a point, but when you're simultaneously arguing we didn't need him cause we could just play Randle at the 5, it's pretty clear you're just trolling.

[NYKinMIA]

there goes the neighborhood.

[Chanel Bomber]

There was no move that was going to bring back iHart or accelerate Mitch's recovery let alone provide certainty on his timeline. They were the identity of the team (defense and offensivd rebounding).

Having Randle wouldn't address any of those things either.

The Knicks had to trade Randle for KAT.

What really hurts is losing Divo.

KAT doesn't address defense or rebounding. We just saw that man make Nick Richards look way better than he really is yesterday

Neither does Randle.

The difference is that KAT is a 7-foot 40% 3-point shooter who spaces the floor and converts at an elite level, while Randle is at best a neutra floor spacer, if not someone defenses can sag off of.

KAT might not be a plus defender at the 5 but his length at least gives him a chance to contest. Randle has been awful on defense for the last 3 seasons and how he played as a 5 on losing teams half a decade ago (not to mention often off the bench) is fairly irrelevant today.

[3toheadmelo]

Hard to take anyone seriously when they're using BPG in 2024 as an argument for good defense

[3toheadmelo]

There was no move that was going to bring back iHart or accelerate Mitch's recovery let alone provide certainty on his timeline. They were the identity of the team (defense and offensivd rebounding).

Having Randle wouldn't address any of those things either.

The Knicks had to trade Randle for KAT.

What really hurts is losing Divo.

KAT doesn't address defense or rebounding. We just saw that man make Nick Richards look way better than he really is yesterday

Neither does Randle.

The difference is that KAT is a 7-foot 40% 3-point shooter who spaces the floor and converts at an elite level, while Randle is at best a neutra floor spacer, if not someone defenses can sag off of.

KAT might not be a plus defender at the 5 but his length at least gives him a chance to contest. Randle has been awful on defense for the last 3 seasons and how he played as a 5 on losing teams half a decade ago (not to mention often off the bench) is fairly irrelevant today.

The Timberwolves never got past the 1st round with KAT at C.

[Chanel Bomber]

this team has had a fundamental sea change. it will not be able to operate as it did the last 2 years and will have to find it's identity. that will take time and who knows how it will turn out.

The identity was defense and offensive rebounding i.e., Mitch and iHart (and to a lesser extent Josh Hart).

They couldn't keep iHart.

Mitch's recovery isn't going as planned and he likely won't play until January or February.

That was the sea change.

Flipping Randle for KAT has no effect on that identit. Randle didn't defend and his impact on the offensive board was meager and inconsequential.

[Chanel Bomber]

KAT doesn't address defense or rebounding. We just saw that man make Nick Richards look way better than he really is yesterday

Neither does Randle.

The difference is that KAT is a 7-foot 40% 3-point shooter who spaces the floor and converts at an elite level, while Randle is at best a neutra floor spacer, if not someone defenses can sag off of.

KAT might not be a plus defender at the 5 but his length at least gives him a chance to contest. Randle has been awful on defense for the last 3 seasons and how he played as a 5 on losing teams half a decade ago (not to mention often off the bench) is fairly irrelevant today.

The Timberwolves never got past the 1st round with KAT at C.

They never had talent besides that one year with Jimmy where he got hurt - they were the 3rd seed in the West for most of the season. Unless you believe Wiggins and D'Lo are a formidable supporting cast. All the data suggests that KAT was elevating the team despite his defensive limitations and that its the supporting cast around him that was hurting them.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

I'm not saying to play Randle full time at C. But I'm way more confident in doing it until Mitch came back. Even would've been fine with Sims starting until Mitch came back too.

KAT just doesn't work at the 5. Especially in the playoffs.

Read on Twitter

His net ratings and DEF rating were atrocious every year he played the 5 in the playoffs. His worst was actually under Thibs too.

We are in the same division with the Sixers and Celtics, playing Randle at the 5 until whenever Maybe Mitch is back would put us in a hole right out of the gate. Also, the guy everyone wanted back in IHart had a 128.2 DRTG in the playoffs last year.

You can't compare something a player hasn't really done to a guy that has done it, the Wolves were 13th defensively the last year KAT played C, and that was with Russell as his PG. I don't think anyone is expecting us to have a top 3 defense on the season but as long as the wings are healthy we should be able to get into the top 10. Randle at C wasn't going to work, they knew it and traded him for a guy that we know can play both the 4 and 5.

It doesn't translate into winning basketball is my point. Every year he played C, they either missed the playoffs or was a 1st round exit. We have all of the data in the world that show why it never worked.

He went to the playoffs 2 times as a center, I mean he's played in the playoffs more than Randle despite being in the league 1 year less. The two times he played as a C, they were going against the 65-17 Rockets, and the 56-26 Grizz, they were a 7th and 8th seed, those weren't going to be competitive series. And going by the splits, he had 1 positive as a PF, and 1 negative, which is the same as Randles 2 years in the playoffs. So, shouldn't we be happy we got someone that's a better PF, while also being able to be a 5?

The fact he can do both is what's important, he can play the 4 or 5, he will hold the fort until Maybe Mitch gets back and give us a chance to decide if we need to put a C next to him. He has the versatility we needed, and he gets the 3 wings on the floor together which was clearly the most important thing to the Knicks FO.

[Iron Mantis]

there goes the neighborhood.

Randle stans crashing out again .....

Looks like this is going to be the norm for a while.

[mpharris36]

There was no move that was going to bring back iHart or accelerate Mitch's recovery let alone provide certainty on his timeline. They were the identity of the team last year (defense and offensive rebounding).

Having Randle wouldn't address any of those things either.

The Knicks had to trade Randle for KAT.

What really hurts is losing Divo.

if anything though Deuce performance last night really shows he could really break out with more usage.

And yes I have been trying to point out the fact this move was mutually exclusive of ihart leaving and mitch being hurt...so we were certainly going to have adj our identity from last year to this year regardless. The FO made a decision they wanted to value more EFF because they didn't think they would be able to rely on simply getting 2nd opportunities from rebounding with the uncertainty of there center position.

[3toheadmelo]

this team has had a fundamental sea change. it will not be able to operate as it did the last 2 years and will have to find it's identity. that will take time and who knows how it will turn out.

The identity was defense and offensive rebounding i.e., Mitch and iHart (and to a lesser extent Josh Hart).

They couldn't keep iHart.

Mitch's recovery isn't going as planned and he likely won't play until January or February.

That was the sea change.

Flipping Randle for KAT has no effect on that identit. Randle didn't defend and his impact on the offensive board was meager and inconsequential.

KAT averaged 1.5 offensive RPG per game last season, Randle averaged 2.2 offensve RPG last season.

Even with Randle's struggles in the playoffs, he was still a net positive in the 2023 post season. So even with his bad defense and bricking shots on one ankle, he still had a positive impact on the team. You can get away with Randle's defense. You historically can't with KAT.