Cavs/Knicks/OKC in 3 Way Trade Talks (JR+SHUMP TRADED TO CLE)

[BowlRips]

I bet people would kill for my Tyson + Shumpert/Hardaway for Perkins + Adams/Jackson trades right now. Last year, they were laughing at it.

i was just thinking if we had tyson still, we might have been able to send tyson/shump to the cavs and somehow end up with reggie. the cavs still want a center.

Would having Reggie necessarily improve our odds of signing him this summer? Some. Maybe not much.

If we had his rights, a team could still come along and sign him to $13M on the first day of free agency. Complicates things to have his rights actually. Gives you veto power to take him back yes, but also puts you at the mercy of the teams without his rights who kind of have the first-mover position. All you get is the veto/match.

if Phil is worth anything im sure he can talk to Reggie about waiting a week to sign. Make a verbal commitment to sign him for $12mil a year and let him wait a week before signing so that his caphold would still be $5mil

[R-DAWG]

phil taking another run a Reggie Jackson? I wonder what fell through in the deal.

Reggie Jackson was interviewed and said I thought I was traded. I wonder what the framework of the deal and then it must have broke down. Maybe Thunder were requesting a pick from the knicks (2018) to complete the deal?

Not sure but with waiters there and with Jackson wanting to start I wonder what the price for Jackson will be.

OKC is also in the tax which I don't think they want to be so maybe the TPE is something that could interest them as a piece.

I'm really curious how the deal went from us getting Jackson, to us getting the OKC 1st, to us getting nothing

I'm confused

[god shammgod]

I bet people would kill for my Tyson + Shumpert/Hardaway for Perkins + Adams/Jackson trades right now. Last year, they were laughing at it.

i was just thinking if we had tyson still, we might have been able to send tyson/shump to the cavs and somehow end up with reggie. the cavs still want a center.

Would having Reggie necessarily improve our odds of signing him this summer? Some. Maybe not much.

If we had his rights, a team could still come along and sign him to $13M on the first day of free agency. Complicates things to have his rights actually. Gives you veto power to take him back yes, but also puts you at the mercy of the teams without his rights who kind of have the first-mover position. All you get is the veto/match.

you tell him ahead of time not to sign an offer sheet but we'll match any deal anyone is willing to offer. you explain we need to sign other free agents first. you give your word and hope his agent sticks to it. they usually do as long as they know they're gonna get their money.

[mpharris36]

phil taking another run a Reggie Jackson? I wonder what fell through in the deal.

Reggie Jackson was interviewed and said I thought I was traded. I wonder what the framework of the deal and then it must have broke down. Maybe Thunder were requesting a pick from the knicks (2018) to complete the deal?

Not sure but with waiters there and with Jackson wanting to start I wonder what the price for Jackson will be.

OKC is also in the tax which I don't think they want to be so maybe the TPE is something that could interest them as a piece.

I'm really curious how the deal went from us getting Jackson, to us getting the OKC 1st, to us getting nothing

I'm confused

Tim Hardaway might have been in the deal instead of waiters.

Maybe knicks wanted Reggie OKC decided they would rather keep Reggie and would take waiters for a 1st.

Maybe OKC wanted a pick for Reggie and the knicks didn't budge....which is good

[mpharris36]

you tell him ahead of time not to sign an offer sheet but we'll match any deal anyone is willing to offer. you explain we need to sign other free agents first. you give your word and hope his agent sticks to it. they usually do as long as they know they're gonna get their money.

it works in theory but players are human and want theres.

Chandler Parsons got sick and tired of waiting and that f*cked Houston plans.

Sometimes these big FA discussions drag out and then a team comes in a says hey Reggie the knicks don't really want you here 10 million a year to sign with us today.

How does he turn that down?

[Jeffrey]

If Reggie Jackson fell through.. that's because we are unwilling to trade our first round pick. OKC's strength has always been to replenish through the draft and they do a very good job at it.

I doubt it. The earliest 1st round pick we can trade is the 2018 pick. Most teams don't base trades on a draft pick that far in the future.

3 years is not that far for a 1st round draft pick. Then I don't see what the Knicks can currently give them to get Reggie Jax.

[god shammgod]

you tell him ahead of time not to sign an offer sheet but we'll match any deal anyone is willing to offer. you explain we need to sign other free agents first. you give your word and hope his agent sticks to it. they usually do as long as they know they're gonna get their money.

it works in theory but players are human and want theres.

Chandler Parsons got sick and tired of waiting and that f*cked Houston plans.

Sometimes these big FA discussions drag out and then a team comes in a says hey Reggie the knicks don't really want you here 10 million a year to sign with us today.

How does he turn that down?

i don't think he had a guarantee.

[mpharris36]

you tell him ahead of time not to sign an offer sheet but we'll match any deal anyone is willing to offer. you explain we need to sign other free agents first. you give your word and hope his agent sticks to it. they usually do as long as they know they're gonna get their money.

it works in theory but players are human and want theres.

Chandler Parsons got sick and tired of waiting and that f*cked Houston plans.

Sometimes these big FA discussions drag out and then a team comes in a says hey Reggie the knicks don't really want you here 10 million a year to sign with us today.

How does he turn that down?

i don't think he had a guarantee.

im pretty sure he did....Cuban said f*ck that and scopped up parsons while Houston told him to wait.

They wanted bosh and then they would have matched anything for parsons.

[K_ick_God]

I bet people would kill for my Tyson + Shumpert/Hardaway for Perkins + Adams/Jackson trades right now. Last year, they were laughing at it.

i was just thinking if we had tyson still, we might have been able to send tyson/shump to the cavs and somehow end up with reggie. the cavs still want a center.

Tyson and Shumpert to Cavs
Waiters, Varejao and Prigioni to OKC
Perkins and Jackson to Knicks

What evidence do we have that the Cavs would value Tyson more than Sideshow Bob BEFORE they gave Bob the nice big extension?

Because once he gets the extension, OKC would say no. AV is Perkins all over again for OKC.

So to be fair, to me, to make this case, you have to show that this is not more MMQB -- in the sense that right now it looks like the Cavs would desperately trade for Tyson. But right now is NOT the proper gauge. It's back then, with Tyson coming off a bad season and aging, with the Cavs having not started stinking it up as they are now, and with them valuing AV quite a bit ... as measured by the contract they gave him pre-season (and Bron actually naming Andy in his I'm Coming Home article -- Bron's love matters obviously).

It just doesn't add up. It's like saying why didn't you sell your bad car to that guy a few months ago ... that guy doesn't have any car now so he'll take yours? Well the answer is that that guy didn't need my car a few months ago so I can't send John Connor back to him and convince him that he will need my bad car soon, so he should buy it before he gives Sideshow a big contract and before he needs it and, trust me, Tyson isn't totally bad and finished -- you'll see, I'm a cyborg from the future but I'm also a straight shooter. Just do back then what you would do now and erase time.

[god shammgod]

it works in theory but players are human and want theres.

Chandler Parsons got sick and tired of waiting and that f*cked Houston plans.

Sometimes these big FA discussions drag out and then a team comes in a says hey Reggie the knicks don't really want you here 10 million a year to sign with us today.

How does he turn that down?

i don't think he had a guarantee.

im pretty sure he did....Cuban said f*ck that and scopped up parsons while Houston told him to wait.

They wanted bosh and then they would have matched anything for parsons.

The Rockets attempted to negotiate a deal with Parsons on Wednesday, according to Adrian Wojnarowski of Yahoo! Sports, but were unable to come to an agreement.

http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2014/7/9/5885605/chandler-parsons-contract-rockets-mavericks-nba-free-agency-2014

then he signed the offer sheet. they were haggling with him.

[K_ick_God]

i was just thinking if we had tyson still, we might have been able to send tyson/shump to the cavs and somehow end up with reggie. the cavs still want a center.

Would having Reggie necessarily improve our odds of signing him this summer? Some. Maybe not much.

If we had his rights, a team could still come along and sign him to $13M on the first day of free agency. Complicates things to have his rights actually. Gives you veto power to take him back yes, but also puts you at the mercy of the teams without his rights who kind of have the first-mover position. All you get is the veto/match.

you tell him ahead of time not to sign an offer sheet but we'll match any deal anyone is willing to offer. you explain we need to sign other free agents first. you give your word and hope his agent sticks to it. they usually do as long as they know they're gonna get their money.

Fair enough I guess although I haven't thought it through entirely. Seems sound though.

Whatever premium you pay him, or anyone, will eat into 2016 cap room. So it's not all about just going over this year's cap to sign him. It's also about 2016.

[Pharmcat]

Im sure O'connors article was already posted

http://espn.go.com/new-york/nba/story/_ ... ything-yet


this summer will make or break Phil

the Tyson trade was not good, it added more salary for 2015...if anything, they couldve held onto tyson, let him expire, and stretch out felton

this trade shumpert was sold at its lowest value (last year first rounder was offered, in the lowry offer, and this year dally + shump for waiters)....to end with salary fillers and 2nd pick is not a good return

cutting Dally for a culture change makes Jackson look bad as he brought him in the first place

[god shammgod]

Would having Reggie necessarily improve our odds of signing him this summer? Some. Maybe not much.

If we had his rights, a team could still come along and sign him to $13M on the first day of free agency. Complicates things to have his rights actually. Gives you veto power to take him back yes, but also puts you at the mercy of the teams without his rights who kind of have the first-mover position. All you get is the veto/match.

you tell him ahead of time not to sign an offer sheet but we'll match any deal anyone is willing to offer. you explain we need to sign other free agents first. you give your word and hope his agent sticks to it. they usually do as long as they know they're gonna get their money.

Fair enough I guess although I haven't thought it through entirely. Seems sound though.

Whatever premium you pay him, or anyone, will eat into 2016 cap room. So it's not all about just going over this year's cap to sign him. It's also about 2016.

it does depend how much you like him and how much cap space you think you'll need in 2016.

so i'm guessing we've moved on to the durant dream now ? it's a good dream, i'll give you that.

[K_ick_God]

Would having Reggie necessarily improve our odds of signing him this summer? Some. Maybe not much.

If we had his rights, a team could still come along and sign him to $13M on the first day of free agency. Complicates things to have his rights actually. Gives you veto power to take him back yes, but also puts you at the mercy of the teams without his rights who kind of have the first-mover position. All you get is the veto/match.

you tell him ahead of time not to sign an offer sheet but we'll match any deal anyone is willing to offer. you explain we need to sign other free agents first. you give your word and hope his agent sticks to it. they usually do as long as they know they're gonna get their money.

Fair enough I guess although I haven't thought it through entirely. Seems sound though.

Whatever premium you pay him, or anyone, will eat into 2016 cap room. So it's not all about just going over this year's cap to sign him. It's also about 2016.

Also tricky because you're asking the agent to avoid telling any team that the Knicks will match any offer.

And how do you document that other team's offer without a formal paper? An email or voicemail message? I think the team would be suspicious that you're not willing to sign an offer sheet and just would share the verbal commitment. How do the Knicks trust the agent not to shop the "Knicks will match offer" around? Puts the agent in as a representative of the Knicks in a sense.

I'm sure a lot of teams would love to tell Reggie that they'll pay him a Max, knowing the Knicks have guaranteed a match. That's why the actual offer sheet is crucial -- it puts the team's actual skin in the game. It proves the offer is real.

So no, not clear that it works, I take it back my friend . It's very messy actually. And maybe impossible to pull off.

[StephNYKurry]

I bet people would kill for my Tyson + Shumpert/Hardaway for Perkins + Adams/Jackson trades right now. Last year, they were laughing at it.

The deal I proposed after losing to Indy:

Tyson/Shump for DeAndre and Bledsoe

People laughed at me as well.

[R-DAWG]

i was just thinking if we had tyson still, we might have been able to send tyson/shump to the cavs and somehow end up with reggie. the cavs still want a center.

Tyson and Shumpert to Cavs
Waiters, Varejao and Prigioni to OKC
Perkins and Jackson to Knicks

What evidence do we have that the Cavs would value Tyson more than Sideshow Bob BEFORE they gave Bob the nice big extension?

Because once he gets the extension, OKC would say no. AV is Perkins all over again for OKC.

So to be fair, to me, to make this case, you have to show that this is not more MMQB -- in the sense that right now it looks like the Cavs would desperately trade for Tyson. But right now is NOT the proper gauge. It's back then, with Tyson coming off a bad season and aging, with the Cavs having not started stinking it up as they are now, and with them valuing AV quite a bit ... as measured by the contract they gave him pre-season (and Bron actually naming Andy in his I'm Coming Home article -- Bron's love matters obviously).

It just doesn't add up. It's like saying why didn't you sell your bad car to that guy a few months ago ... that guy doesn't have any car now so he'll take yours? Well the answer is that that guy didn't need my car a few months ago so I can't send John Connor back to him and convince him that he will need my bad car soon, so he should buy it before he gives Sideshow a big contract and before he needs it and, trust me, Tyson isn't totally bad and finished -- you'll see, I'm a cyborg from the future but I'm also a straight shooter. Just do back then what you would do now and erase time.

A more likely trade would have been Tyson for Thompson, Bogans non guaranteed contract, and a 1st rd pick. CLE was looking for C depth over the summer and would have had a great combo with Vareajo and Tyson. Dan Gilbert isn't afraid to spend money.

[Sprewell4Three]

I bet people would kill for my Tyson + Shumpert/Hardaway for Perkins + Adams/Jackson trades right now. Last year, they were laughing at it.

i was just thinking if we had tyson still, we might have been able to send tyson/shump to the cavs and somehow end up with reggie. the cavs still want a center.

This is true - had we had Tyson, exactly the type of player the Cavs need, we would be able to get value from them to get a Reggie Jackson. This is why moving Tyson for the sake of moving him for pennies on the dollar was a mistake.

I don't know why you like to play the coulda shoulda woulda game to prove a point. What makes you think Tyson would have stayed healthy after being injury prone all of last year?

[K_ick_God]

i was just thinking if we had tyson still, we might have been able to send tyson/shump to the cavs and somehow end up with reggie. the cavs still want a center.

This is true - had we had Tyson, exactly the type of player the Cavs need, we would be able to get value from them to get a Reggie Jackson. This is why moving Tyson for the sake of moving him for pennies on the dollar was a mistake.

I don't know why you like to play the coulda shoulda woulda game to prove a point. What makes you think Tyson would have stayed healthy after being injury prone all of last year?

And he's likely wrong. Someone is probably eating AV's contract in this situation and that's a bad deal -- dude is less healthy than Grant Hill in his prime.

I know he talks about doing all this other stuff to get him without AV but it's a stretch. It'd have required AV now in all likelihood OR you'd have to convince the Cavs that Tyson was better than AV before they gave him the big extension. Which is a long shot. Tyson was atrocious last season. And clearly the Cavs wanted to invest in AV so they like him/want him.

[Deeeez Knicks]

Reggie Jackson is about to get overpaid and isnt a great fit anyway. Not sure why you guys are sweating him.

[K_ick_God]

^POSTSCRIPT: It wouldn't work without getting the Cavs to cough up AV -- which means someone is either taking AV's bad extension now *OR* you're convincing them to replace AV with Tyson *before* they give AV the extension.

If you do it with Tristan Thompson and Haywood, the Cavs could trade 4 more low salary guys and still not have enough room to take on Tyson's 14M.

R-DAWG definitely wrong about that. So it's AV or bust and OKC would not want AV now -- they're not stupid. It's a non-starter.

EDIT TO POSTSCRIPT -- my bad, he's mentioning Bogans' deal. Still don't buy it but that'd work financially at least. Why would Cavs want Tyson to go next to AV? Two non-offensive bigs with injuries and questionable man defense. Now maybe sure. Then? Very doubtful. They overlap and neither gives the Cavs something that is much extra, especially before the Cavs could actually see they are not very good.

I'm just amazed at how people don't even acknowledge that they're using 20-20 hindsight. I doubt Cavs even want Tyson much at all before the season, let alone trading their best remaining assets to get him.