2019-2020 College/Draft thread (Part 4)

[robillionaire]

What’s funny is if you go back to part 1 of the draft thread I was dumping on LaMelo too pointing out he was shooting 14% from 3 and writing him off as overhyped based on that number. But then I really started to dig into it and was forced to do a 180.

Truth be told he is the mold of player that I have always liked to watch in the nba. The great playmakers and savants like Kidd (the prime one not the 40 year old Knicks version) and Rondo who would just make these unbelievable passes. I want that in the garden for once

[HEZI]

Shot 34% from 3 in high school, not that I put a lot of stake in high school stats, but that’s out there

Trae shot 32% from 3 as a rookie on 6 attempts a game after recovering from his abysmal start and that’s not counting the bad summer league numbers

I’m just saying people would have been wrong to write off Trae based on summer league and the first several months of his rookie season, and that was much larger sample size than we have with LaMelo.

It looked to me he was just starting to round into form and like I’ve mentioned his last 6 games he was shooting 32% from 3 on 7.8 attempts a game and he looked like he was starting to get comfortable. He got off to a bad start on a small sample size.

If I am wrong and he can’t shoot he will still be a low end starting franchise PG. If I am right and he becomes even a 32% pt shooter (Trae rookie year, Luka both years) he will be one of the best players in the nba.

You see Lamelo as a 30 point scorer in the NBA?

Also if we are going to be trading assets to move up for a player then he better be worth it. Trae Young's summer league stats aren't relevant when there was a lot more evidence of him being a much better player than whatever that small sample size in SL showed. Like I said, there isn't anything like that out there for Lamelo, you had to pick his last 6 games and even then he still doesn't even come close to what Trae was doing or showing in college. I don't think we are talking about the same level of player here.

Liking Lamelo Ball is one thing and wanting him if we are in position to do so is ok but is he worth giving up assets for and trading up for? I don't think its worth it. We should be looking to keep assets for a trade that actually is worth it. Lamelo Ball just isn't that good of a player

You mention I only picked his last 6 games but the 25 percent stat everyone is winging around to discredit him is based on 12 games, so if we can use 12 game sample sizes we shouldn’t have a problem pointing out he was on an upward trajectory in the last half of those

I understand people not wanting to trade assets for him. I still would, but I understand not wanting to

As far as being a 30 point scorer, he definitely won’t as a rookie so I wouldn’t be expecting that. I feel comfortable saying he will eventually be a 20 point scorer with high assists and rebounds. He averaged 22 9 and 9 at spire and I could see him putting up similar numbers. Best case scenario mid to high 20s worst case scenario in the teens and still a walking triple double because the assists and rebounds are a foregone conclusion

Now you predict his prime stat line and we will relitigate this in 10 years

How is it an upward trajectory though when he shot 1-11 during his last game? I think you are projecting him getting better but actually he was just as likely to keep getting worse.

Basically what you are projecting him to be in the NBA is the player he was in Australia. Meh!

[3toheadmelo]

I wish we could come out this draft with Lamelo and Wiseman

[HEZI]

What’s funny is if you go back to part 1 of the draft thread I was dumping on LaMelo too pointing out he was shooting 14% from 3 and writing him off as overhyped based on that number. But then I really started to dig into it and was forced to do a 180.

Truth be told he is the mold of player that I have always liked to watch in the nba. The great playmakers and savants like Kidd (the prime one not the 40 year old Knicks version) and Rondo who would just make these unbelievable passes. I want that in the garden for once

[robillionaire]

You see Lamelo as a 30 point scorer in the NBA?

Also if we are going to be trading assets to move up for a player then he better be worth it. Trae Young's summer league stats aren't relevant when there was a lot more evidence of him being a much better player than whatever that small sample size in SL showed. Like I said, there isn't anything like that out there for Lamelo, you had to pick his last 6 games and even then he still doesn't even come close to what Trae was doing or showing in college. I don't think we are talking about the same level of player here.

Liking Lamelo Ball is one thing and wanting him if we are in position to do so is ok but is he worth giving up assets for and trading up for? I don't think its worth it. We should be looking to keep assets for a trade that actually is worth it. Lamelo Ball just isn't that good of a player

You mention I only picked his last 6 games but the 25 percent stat everyone is winging around to discredit him is based on 12 games, so if we can use 12 game sample sizes we shouldn’t have a problem pointing out he was on an upward trajectory in the last half of those

I understand people not wanting to trade assets for him. I still would, but I understand not wanting to

As far as being a 30 point scorer, he definitely won’t as a rookie so I wouldn’t be expecting that. I feel comfortable saying he will eventually be a 20 point scorer with high assists and rebounds. He averaged 22 9 and 9 at spire and I could see him putting up similar numbers. Best case scenario mid to high 20s worst case scenario in the teens and still a walking triple double because the assists and rebounds are a foregone conclusion

Now you predict his prime stat line and we will relitigate this in 10 years

How is it an upward trajectory though when he shot 1-11 during his last game? I think you are projecting him getting better but actually he was just as likely to keep getting worse.

Basically what you are projecting him to be in the NBA is the player he was in Australia. Meh!

I included the last game in the interest of fairness! If I was really trying to cherry pick I would have left that out and mentioned he had a 5 game stretch where he shot 37.8%

[HEZI]

If Lamelo is being called an elite ball handler and playmaker then Haliburton is an elite shooter and playmaker

I will take elite shooting over elite ball handles all day, especially for the Knicks right now who need shooting more than anything. Give me a reliable shooter over a fancy ball handler who struggles as a scorer. If we get Lamelo we will still lack true go to scoring options, then might as well go with Haliburton who brings more to the table in terms of overall value as a player

[robillionaire]

If Lamelo is being called an elite ball handler and playmaker then Haliburton is an elite shooter and playmaker

I will take elite shooting over elite ball handles all day, especially for the Knicks right now who need shooting more than anything. Give me a reliable shooter over a fancy ball handler who struggles as a scorer. If we get Lamelo we will still lack true go to scoring options, then might as well go with Haliburton who brings more to the table in terms of overall value as a player

If you base it off his percentages, yes, he was an elite shooter. Mikal Bridges shot 43% and was even better. Sometimes shooting percentages plummet from NCAA to NBA. So I have reason to suspect he may not maintain those numbers. But handles and playmaking skills don’t just disappear like someone’s shot can.

You think he’s going to shoot 40% in the NBA?

[HEZI]

If Lamelo is being called an elite ball handler and playmaker then Haliburton is an elite shooter and playmaker

I will take elite shooting over elite ball handles all day, especially for the Knicks right now who need shooting more than anything. Give me a reliable shooter over a fancy ball handler who struggles as a scorer. If we get Lamelo we will still lack true go to scoring options, then might as well go with Haliburton who brings more to the table in terms of overall value as a player

If you base it off his percentages, yes, he was an elite shooter. Mikal Bridges shot 43% and was even better. Sometimes shooting percentages plummet from NCAA to NBA. So I have reason to suspect he may not maintain those numbers. But handles and playmaking skills don’t just disappear like someone’s shot can.

You think he’s going to shoot 40% in the NBA?

Mikal Bridges was a 3/D player who wasn't even the best player on his team. I even said before that draft that Mikal would need to adjust to NBA range and that his shot and lack of shot creation and range was not good and why I liked Miles better than him. Haliburton is not the same player,, not only is he a much better ball handler but he's got much better range and fluidity on his shot than Mikal. It's easy to project Haliburton being a better shooter and player than Mikal.

Yes I think Haliburton can shoot 40% from 3 in the NBA. Terry Rozier and THJ both shot just over 40% on high volume, so yeah I think Haliburton will be just fine.

[Richard4444]

I dont know if RJ would be a great primary handler. He has a OK court vision and passing skills. Very few fantastic pass to be considered a craft playmaker and too many turnovers to be a "safe playmaker".

I fear people see his bad shooting and just think "make him a point foward" Just like Frank his court position would not be based on his skills but his deficiencies.

[jvsimonetti0514]

I just logged in to say I agree with everything Rob is saying about LaMelo.

[robillionaire]

If Lamelo is being called an elite ball handler and playmaker then Haliburton is an elite shooter and playmaker

I will take elite shooting over elite ball handles all day, especially for the Knicks right now who need shooting more than anything. Give me a reliable shooter over a fancy ball handler who struggles as a scorer. If we get Lamelo we will still lack true go to scoring options, then might as well go with Haliburton who brings more to the table in terms of overall value as a player

If you base it off his percentages, yes, he was an elite shooter. Mikal Bridges shot 43% and was even better. Sometimes shooting percentages plummet from NCAA to NBA. So I have reason to suspect he may not maintain those numbers. But handles and playmaking skills don’t just disappear like someone’s shot can.

You think he’s going to shoot 40% in the NBA?

Mikal Bridges was a 3/D player who wasn't even the best player on his team. I even said before that draft that Mikal would need to adjust to NBA range and that his shot and lack of shot creation and range was not good and why I liked Miles better than him. Haliburton is not the same player,, not only is he a much better ball handler but he's got much better range and fluidity on his shot than Mikal. It's easy to project Haliburton being a better shooter and player than Mikal.

Yes I think Haliburton can shoot 40% from 3 in the NBA. Terry Rozier and THJ both shot just over 40% on high volume, so yeah I think Haliburton will be just fine.

Yeah I agree that he impressive range, I give him that. My concern is that because his form is low and slow and he doesn’t have the handle or first step to create space he can’t shoot off the dribble. And he will have it harder than ever against NBA defenses. Doesn’t apply to THJ and Rozier. I think he will still be a pretty good shooter and hit his open looks, but I think you need to be more dynamic with your shot creation to be considered elite and I don’t see that happening

[robillionaire]

I dont know if RJ would be a great primary handler. He has a OK court vision and passing skills. Very few fantastic pass to be considered a craft playmaker and too many turnovers to be a "safe playmaker".

I fear people see his bad shooting and just think "make him a point foward" Just like Frank his court position would not be based on his skills but his deficiencies.

We ran him out there at PG a few times last year and it seemed like he was in over his head. It works great in bursts but not on a regular basis

Even James Harden who is obviously better when the ball is in his hands has benefitted from playing alongside a primary pg like cp3

[HarthorneWingo]

I dont know if RJ would be a great primary handler. He has a OK court vision and passing skills. Very few fantastic pass to be considered a craft playmaker and too many turnovers to be a "safe playmaker".

I fear people see his bad shooting and just think "make him a point foward" Just like Frank his court position would not be based on his skills but his deficiencies.

Yeah, make him the primary ball handler. Wait ..

[HarthorneWingo]

RJ is a complimentary piece. Not a player you build around.

Neither is LaMelo. He couldn't defend, shoot, or score at the NBL level.

At 18, and he scored better than you think.

But against who?

Or is it “whom”? damnit!

[Richard4444]

I dont know if RJ would be a great primary handler. He has a OK court vision and passing skills. Very few fantastic pass to be considered a craft playmaker and too many turnovers to be a "safe playmaker".

I fear people see his bad shooting and just think "make him a point foward" Just like Frank his court position would not be based on his skills but his deficiencies.

Yeah, make him the primary ball handler. Wait ..

Sorry, I am foreign. How do I name the player who has the ball in his hand most of the time? Main ball handler?

[HEZI]

If you base it off his percentages, yes, he was an elite shooter. Mikal Bridges shot 43% and was even better. Sometimes shooting percentages plummet from NCAA to NBA. So I have reason to suspect he may not maintain those numbers. But handles and playmaking skills don’t just disappear like someone’s shot can.

You think he’s going to shoot 40% in the NBA?

Mikal Bridges was a 3/D player who wasn't even the best player on his team. I even said before that draft that Mikal would need to adjust to NBA range and that his shot and lack of shot creation and range was not good and why I liked Miles better than him. Haliburton is not the same player,, not only is he a much better ball handler but he's got much better range and fluidity on his shot than Mikal. It's easy to project Haliburton being a better shooter and player than Mikal.

Yes I think Haliburton can shoot 40% from 3 in the NBA. Terry Rozier and THJ both shot just over 40% on high volume, so yeah I think Haliburton will be just fine.

Yeah I agree that he impressive range, I give him that. My concern is that because his form is low and slow and he doesn’t have the handle or first step to create space he can’t shoot off the dribble. And he will have it harder than ever against NBA defenses. Doesn’t apply to THJ and Rozier. I think he will still be a pretty good shooter and hit his open looks, but I think you need to be more dynamic with your shot creation to be considered elite and I don’t see that happening

His shot is not slow at all whatsoever. Not sure what you are seeing but he has one of the quickest releases out there. Very little motion and doesn't even dip the ball and he lets the fly in a split second.

[robillionaire]

Mikal Bridges was a 3/D player who wasn't even the best player on his team. I even said before that draft that Mikal would need to adjust to NBA range and that his shot and lack of shot creation and range was not good and why I liked Miles better than him. Haliburton is not the same player,, not only is he a much better ball handler but he's got much better range and fluidity on his shot than Mikal. It's easy to project Haliburton being a better shooter and player than Mikal.

Yes I think Haliburton can shoot 40% from 3 in the NBA. Terry Rozier and THJ both shot just over 40% on high volume, so yeah I think Haliburton will be just fine.

Yeah I agree that he impressive range, I give him that. My concern is that because his form is low and slow and he doesn’t have the handle or first step to create space he can’t shoot off the dribble. And he will have it harder than ever against NBA defenses. Doesn’t apply to THJ and Rozier. I think he will still be a pretty good shooter and hit his open looks, but I think you need to be more dynamic with your shot creation to be considered elite and I don’t see that happening

His shot is not slow at all whatsoever. Not sure what you are seeing but he has one of the quickest releases out there. Very little motion and doesn't even dip the ball and he lets the fly in a split second.

Yeah I may have to look into it a little more, he is someone I’ve admittedly not watched a ton of outside of some highlight reels. it’s definitely low though which maybe to me looked like sort of a wind-up motion

There are some articles that describe it as slow but Spencer Pearlman in his scouting report describes it as quick and he knows his stuff other than thinking Mikal and Culver were going to be good

“Take, for instance, his jumper. Haliburton is, by any account, just a terrific shooter with deep, deep range. When he’s given time and space, he’s deadly. According to Synergy, he ranks in the 99th percentile in spot-up shooting and in the 98th percentile in catch-and-shoot situations, checking it at 1.493 points-per-possession (PPP).

But he has a long, slow and low release. His feet are positioned awkwardly. The mechanics are not ideal, and this really shows up when Haliburton is forced to shoot off of the dribble, where he ranked in the 35th percentile nationally this past season at 0.684 PPP. That’s a drastic difference, and it’s exacerbated by the fact that Haliburton can struggle to consistently turn the corner against good defenders. When you can’t beat a man, you’re forced to shoot a midrange pull-up, often contested. That’s a suboptimal outcome for any player on any possession, let alone a guy that shoots 49 percent off the catch and 28 percent off the dribble.”

https://collegebasketball.nbcsports.com/2020/04/27/tyrese-haliburton-2020-nba-draft-propsect-breakdown/amp/

I guess when I re-watch it, I agree with you that it doesn’t look all that slow, but I still have the same concerns

[HEZI]

Yeah I agree that he impressive range, I give him that. My concern is that because his form is low and slow and he doesn’t have the handle or first step to create space he can’t shoot off the dribble. And he will have it harder than ever against NBA defenses. Doesn’t apply to THJ and Rozier. I think he will still be a pretty good shooter and hit his open looks, but I think you need to be more dynamic with your shot creation to be considered elite and I don’t see that happening

His shot is not slow at all whatsoever. Not sure what you are seeing but he has one of the quickest releases out there. Very little motion and doesn't even dip the ball and he lets the fly in a split second.

Yeah I may have to look into it a little more, he is someone I’ve admittedly not watched a ton of outside of some highlight reels. it’s definitely low though which maybe to me looked like sort of a wind-up motion

There are some articles that describe it as slow but Spencer Pearlman in his scouting report describes it as quick and he knows his stuff other than thinking Mikal and Culver were going to be good

“Take, for instance, his jumper. Haliburton is, by any account, just a terrific shooter with deep, deep range. When he’s given time and space, he’s deadly. According to Synergy, he ranks in the 99th percentile in spot-up shooting and in the 98th percentile in catch-and-shoot situations, checking it at 1.493 points-per-possession (PPP).

But he has a long, slow and low release. His feet are positioned awkwardly. The mechanics are not ideal, and this really shows up when Haliburton is forced to shoot off of the dribble, where he ranked in the 35th percentile nationally this past season at 0.684 PPP. That’s a drastic difference, and it’s exacerbated by the fact that Haliburton can struggle to consistently turn the corner against good defenders. When you can’t beat a man, you’re forced to shoot a midrange pull-up, often contested. That’s a suboptimal outcome for any player on any possession, let alone a guy that shoots 49 percent off the catch and 28 percent off the dribble.”

https://collegebasketball.nbcsports.com/2020/04/27/tyrese-haliburton-2020-nba-draft-propsect-breakdown/amp/

I guess when I re-watch it, I agree with you that it doesn’t look all that slow, but I still have the same concerns

This idea of "low" release being a negative thing is outdated. Low releases are ideal for range. High releases work better for closer shots and mid range but in order to have the right amount of arc and accuracy to pull of long distance shots it's more ideal to shoot what is considered "low" release. His release isn't slow, again he gets it off in a split second on the catch. Off the dribble is a different story but more often than not when he decides to put the ball on the floor and make something happen he's looking to dish it off to either a roller or to a shooter outside on the kick out. Personally I don't care where he ranks in terms of shooting mid range jumpers off the dribble, we don't need that from him anyways. If you pair him with RJ then we already know that the mid range and middle are going to be RJs working space and Mitchell Robinson's diving lanes.

[Fat]

Mikal Bridges was a 3/D player who wasn't even the best player on his team. I even said before that draft that Mikal would need to adjust to NBA range and that his shot and lack of shot creation and range was not good and why I liked Miles better than him. Haliburton is not the same player,, not only is he a much better ball handler but he's got much better range and fluidity on his shot than Mikal. It's easy to project Haliburton being a better shooter and player than Mikal.

Yes I think Haliburton can shoot 40% from 3 in the NBA. Terry Rozier and THJ both shot just over 40% on high volume, so yeah I think Haliburton will be just fine.

Yeah I agree that he impressive range, I give him that. My concern is that because his form is low and slow and he doesn’t have the handle or first step to create space he can’t shoot off the dribble. And he will have it harder than ever against NBA defenses. Doesn’t apply to THJ and Rozier. I think he will still be a pretty good shooter and hit his open looks, but I think you need to be more dynamic with your shot creation to be considered elite and I don’t see that happening

His shot is not slow at all whatsoever. Not sure what you are seeing but he has one of the quickest releases out there. Very little motion and doesn't even dip the ball and he lets the fly in a split second.

His release is quick the wind up form into the release is dreadful. Actually pulling that off when he has to put the ball on the floor and create off the bounce and shoot off screens might be hard to watch Once he hits the NBA.. Even in the pick and roll he sheds some weaknesses he is shy of contact When he drives (more of a strength issue) never goes left and doesn’t shoot much free throws. So he will be really reliant on the jumper, if he can still shoot it at a high level in the NBA great if not his game becomes watered down by a lot imo

He is a system player to me somebody you really draft when you have a team already in place that has a decent form of structure/playstyle and looking for another glue piece to fit into it. He would look really good on the hawks next to Trae young Or on the warriors.

I’d take him because I really like his chances of being a high quality elite role player but not because he rubs off as BPA.

[robillionaire]

His shot is not slow at all whatsoever. Not sure what you are seeing but he has one of the quickest releases out there. Very little motion and doesn't even dip the ball and he lets the fly in a split second.

Yeah I may have to look into it a little more, he is someone I’ve admittedly not watched a ton of outside of some highlight reels. it’s definitely low though which maybe to me looked like sort of a wind-up motion

There are some articles that describe it as slow but Spencer Pearlman in his scouting report describes it as quick and he knows his stuff other than thinking Mikal and Culver were going to be good

“Take, for instance, his jumper. Haliburton is, by any account, just a terrific shooter with deep, deep range. When he’s given time and space, he’s deadly. According to Synergy, he ranks in the 99th percentile in spot-up shooting and in the 98th percentile in catch-and-shoot situations, checking it at 1.493 points-per-possession (PPP).

But he has a long, slow and low release. His feet are positioned awkwardly. The mechanics are not ideal, and this really shows up when Haliburton is forced to shoot off of the dribble, where he ranked in the 35th percentile nationally this past season at 0.684 PPP. That’s a drastic difference, and it’s exacerbated by the fact that Haliburton can struggle to consistently turn the corner against good defenders. When you can’t beat a man, you’re forced to shoot a midrange pull-up, often contested. That’s a suboptimal outcome for any player on any possession, let alone a guy that shoots 49 percent off the catch and 28 percent off the dribble.”

https://collegebasketball.nbcsports.com/2020/04/27/tyrese-haliburton-2020-nba-draft-propsect-breakdown/amp/

I guess when I re-watch it, I agree with you that it doesn’t look all that slow, but I still have the same concerns

This idea of "low" release being a negative thing is outdated. Low releases are ideal for range. High releases work better for closer shots and mid range but in order to have the right amount of arc and accuracy to pull of long distance shots it's more ideal to shoot what is considered "low" release. His release isn't slow, again he gets it off in a split second on the catch. Off the dribble is a different story but more often than not when he decides to put the ball on the floor and make something happen he's looking to dish it off to either a roller or to a shooter outside on the kick out. Personally I don't care where he ranks in terms of shooting mid range jumpers off the dribble, we don't need that from him anyways. If you pair him with RJ then we already know that the mid range and middle are going to be RJs working space and Mitchell Robinson's diving lanes.

Who do you think would be a better fit between he and Cole