2019-2020 College/Draft thread (Part 3)

[mpharris36]

My thing is, what wrong with developing him into that small ball 4? He would be a lot more effective at that position, we can all see that aspect of his game being there. If he could do that now, he could then add wrinkles to his game to make him a better player.

they spent 35 million on two bums in Randle and Portis

and morris... and taj gibson...

well taj only played center. So I didn't account for him.

You can include Morris in there but he actually was pretty good for us. But while knox has been unimpressive he was basically set up to fail this year. They blocked any chance for him to get legit minutes from day one.

[god shammgod]

Jonathon Wasserman had a recent article on best/worst case for some younger players that was pretty good. I agree with his take on Knox. He can/should get better, but even as a best case might just be a scoring specialist off the bench....needs more minutes as a stretch 4. Also covered Frank and DSJ...


https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2889449-best-and-worst-case-scenarios-for-nbas-unproven-youth

Best case

The New York Knicks have done little to aid in Kevin Knox II's development. They dramatically reduced his minutes last year, and since they added a handful of power forwards in free agency, he's played the 3 for 77 percent of his possessions.

The best-case scenario is Knox turns into a stretch 4 who creates mismatches for bigs with his shooting range and face-up play. But to get there, something needs to happen with his shot. His shooting numbers were disappointing in 2019-20: 32.7 percent from three, 31.0 percent catch-and-shoot, 31.3 percent off the dribble.

But the makes still looked good on his high-arching shot, and given his age, there is still enough room for optimism with his consistency. The 2018 ninth overall pick just may require a more consistent role to build some rhythm/confidence, whether it's with the Knicks or another team. If he receives one and his shooting numbers start to improve, Knox may turn into a more valued 6'9" 4 who can stretch the floor.

He's also flashed the ability to attack closeouts and use the runner for scoring in the lane, so he's not just a one-dimensional perimeter threat.

His ceiling doesn't appear to be as high as it did on draft night, given how badly he's struggled to create and finish. He was never proficient at generating his own offense, even dating back to his freshman year at Kentucky. So it's more realistic to expect a best-case Knox being valued exclusively for his shotmaking off spot-ups, screens, quick pull-ups and runners in the lane.

It is not reasonable to expect isolation scoring or playmaking to become part of Knox's offensive package.

Defensively, Knox was bad early, but he made some progress in 2019-20. He has the body, mobility and reputation for work ethic to become a serviceable defender as his IQ and awareness grow.

Overall, if Knox hits his upside, he would be a shot-making specialist, possibly one worth starting on the right team that needs offense and has creators, passers and rim protection. Projecting him as a bench scorer is more realistic.



Worst case

Worst case, Knox can't improve on his poor finishing feel in traffic (38.1 percent around the basket), and he continues to struggle with shooting inconsistency. If that's the case, a good team wouldn't have any use for him.

The Knicks still have incentive to find minutes for Knox to develop. But New York's poor spacing, plus Julius Randle's presence, makes it difficult to picture the team's 2018 lottery pick making a big jump.

His floor is benchwarmer low, but at the least, it's reasonable to expect Knox to improve his jumper just enough to remain relevant, given teams' interest in shooting bigs.

the best case scenarios on knox, frank & dsj are all "can still stay in the league" lol

[mpharris36]

Jonathon Wasserman had a recent article on best/worst case for some younger players that was pretty good. I agree with his take on Knox. He can/should get better, but even as a best case might just be a scoring specialist off the bench....needs more minutes as a stretch 4. Also covered Frank and DSJ...


https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2889449-best-and-worst-case-scenarios-for-nbas-unproven-youth

Best case

The New York Knicks have done little to aid in Kevin Knox II's development. They dramatically reduced his minutes last year, and since they added a handful of power forwards in free agency, he's played the 3 for 77 percent of his possessions.

The best-case scenario is Knox turns into a stretch 4 who creates mismatches for bigs with his shooting range and face-up play. But to get there, something needs to happen with his shot. His shooting numbers were disappointing in 2019-20: 32.7 percent from three, 31.0 percent catch-and-shoot, 31.3 percent off the dribble.

But the makes still looked good on his high-arching shot, and given his age, there is still enough room for optimism with his consistency. The 2018 ninth overall pick just may require a more consistent role to build some rhythm/confidence, whether it's with the Knicks or another team. If he receives one and his shooting numbers start to improve, Knox may turn into a more valued 6'9" 4 who can stretch the floor.

He's also flashed the ability to attack closeouts and use the runner for scoring in the lane, so he's not just a one-dimensional perimeter threat.

His ceiling doesn't appear to be as high as it did on draft night, given how badly he's struggled to create and finish. He was never proficient at generating his own offense, even dating back to his freshman year at Kentucky. So it's more realistic to expect a best-case Knox being valued exclusively for his shotmaking off spot-ups, screens, quick pull-ups and runners in the lane.

It is not reasonable to expect isolation scoring or playmaking to become part of Knox's offensive package.

Defensively, Knox was bad early, but he made some progress in 2019-20. He has the body, mobility and reputation for work ethic to become a serviceable defender as his IQ and awareness grow.

Overall, if Knox hits his upside, he would be a shot-making specialist, possibly one worth starting on the right team that needs offense and has creators, passers and rim protection. Projecting him as a bench scorer is more realistic.



Worst case

Worst case, Knox can't improve on his poor finishing feel in traffic (38.1 percent around the basket), and he continues to struggle with shooting inconsistency. If that's the case, a good team wouldn't have any use for him.

The Knicks still have incentive to find minutes for Knox to develop. But New York's poor spacing, plus Julius Randle's presence, makes it difficult to picture the team's 2018 lottery pick making a big jump.

His floor is benchwarmer low, but at the least, it's reasonable to expect Knox to improve his jumper just enough to remain relevant, given teams' interest in shooting bigs.

the best case scenarios on knox, frank & dsj are all "can still stay in the league" lol

i see what you did there...trying to drop a little bomb and leave You know one of those guys doesn't belong with the other two.

[god shammgod]

Jonathon Wasserman had a recent article on best/worst case for some younger players that was pretty good. I agree with his take on Knox. He can/should get better, but even as a best case might just be a scoring specialist off the bench....needs more minutes as a stretch 4. Also covered Frank and DSJ...


https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2889449-best-and-worst-case-scenarios-for-nbas-unproven-youth

the best case scenarios on knox, frank & dsj are all "can still stay in the league" lol

i see what you did there...trying to drop a little bomb and leave You know one of those guys doesn't belong with the other two.

the analysis for him aint all that great either

[god shammgod]

how many times did i have to argue that the only 2 young players who mattered were mitch & rj. it was exhausting quite frankly.

[robillionaire]

frank had been a much bigger bust than knox after their first 2 seasons imo. but I think he showed some signs of improvement year 3. I still think frank could put it all together too. Had that 20 pt 10 ast game right before the season ended. and a few really good all around defensive performances

[god shammgod]

frank had been a much bigger bust than knox after their first 2 seasons imo. but I think he showed some signs of improvement year 3. I still think frank could put it all together too. Had that 20 pt 10 ast game right before the season ended. and a few really good all around defensive performances

i and1ed this because yes frank showed a little something right before a global pandemic hit to stop any progress he might have been able to make. as far as knox being less of a disappointment than frank, i don't know. they've both been so bad. but at least you can put frank out there for defensive purposes for 15 minutes a game. any minutes you give knox right now is charity. to him and the opponent.

[Zenzibar]

frank had been a much bigger bust than knox after their first 2 seasons imo. but I think he showed some signs of improvement year 3. I still think frank could put it all together too. Had that 20 pt 10 ast game right before the season ended. and a few really good all around defensive performances

Frank's stats are improving e very year, while still adding muscle and size. This kid is trending to be a beast and problem for opossing players.

[robillionaire]

frank had been a much bigger bust than knox after their first 2 seasons imo. but I think he showed some signs of improvement year 3. I still think frank could put it all together too. Had that 20 pt 10 ast game right before the season ended. and a few really good all around defensive performances

Frank's stats are improving e very year, while still adding muscle and size. This kid is trending to be a beast and problem for opossing players.

maybe. his minutes per game have gone down each year his assists per 36 are down from his rookie year and he improved from like 5 ppg to 6

i'm just kidding though i do agree he's improved

[robillionaire]

frank had been a much bigger bust than knox after their first 2 seasons imo. but I think he showed some signs of improvement year 3. I still think frank could put it all together too. Had that 20 pt 10 ast game right before the season ended. and a few really good all around defensive performances

i and1ed this because yes frank showed a little something right before a global pandemic hit to stop any progress he might have been able to make. as far as knox being less of a disappointment than frank, i don't know. they've both been so bad. but at least you can put frank out there for defensive purposes for 15 minutes a game. any minutes you give knox right now is charity. to him and the opponent.

I was only talking about the first two seasons so forget this past one. after year 2 he was not even able to get out from behind mudiay and trey burke. They wouldn't even play him at PG and were trying to make him a small forward which was a disaster. He shot 28% from 3. He had a perpetual groin pull and it looked like they were trying to dump him for a 2nd round pick. year 2 was perceived as very bad for frank. Knox has also been a catastrophic failure but I think some of his highs from his rookie year (the december rookie of the month, 31 point game, etc) were a little higher than frank's highs in his first 2 seasons. But now frank looks like at minimum he will be in the league worst case as a defensive role player off the bench best case as a solid rotation game manager PG, still don't know if he could ever be a starter. The summer on the french national team seemed to really help him out. Knox could still be out of the league if he doesn't show something year 3.

[3toheadmelo]

He improved a little this year but his negatives still outweigh his positives by a large margin. Which is why he a bench role player

• Ntilikina’s shooting needs substantial work. Ntilikina has the 17th lowest effective field goal percentage for any player with at least 1,000 shots in his first three seasons since 1990. And only Ronnie Price has a lower effective field goal percentage (minimum 1,000 shots) since the start of the 2010-11 season —

The long mid-range jumpers remain a part of his repertoire and a large one. Ntilikina took long 2s on 24 percent of his shot attempts, per Cleaning The Glass, which put him in the 89th percentile among point guards — somehow still down from his rookie season when he shot them 35 percent of the time. To save a debate about the efficacy and place of the mid-range jumper for the cranky retired players and the take industrial complex, Ntilikina wasn’t even good at them. He shot 41 percent on these, which puts him in the bottom half at his position. Shooting bad shots and missing them too often is no way to live. Ntilikina has an affinity for the shot. It’s a part of his pregame workouts and he seems to look for it as a go-to move when defenses sag on him. At the very least he could choose to take a step back when the defender guarding him is giving him the 3 or too far off to truly contest.

By career VORP (value over replacement player), Ntilikina is the second-worst player in his draft class

[robillionaire]

He improved a little this year but his negatives still outweigh his positives by a large margin. Which is why he a bench role player

• Ntilikina’s shooting needs substantial work. Ntilikina has the 17th lowest effective field goal percentage for any player with at least 1,000 shots in his first three seasons since 1990. And only Ronnie Price has a lower effective field goal percentage (minimum 1,000 shots) since the start of the 2010-11 season —

The long mid-range jumpers remain a part of his repertoire and a large one. Ntilikina took long 2s on 24 percent of his shot attempts, per Cleaning The Glass, which put him in the 89th percentile among point guards — somehow still down from his rookie season when he shot them 35 percent of the time. To save a debate about the efficacy and place of the mid-range jumper for the cranky retired players and the take industrial complex, Ntilikina wasn’t even good at them. He shot 41 percent on these, which puts him in the bottom half at his position. Shooting bad shots and missing them too often is no way to live. Ntilikina has an affinity for the shot. It’s a part of his pregame workouts and he seems to look for it as a go-to move when defenses sag on him. At the very least he could choose to take a step back when the defender guarding him is giving him the 3 or too far off to truly contest.

By career VORP (value over replacement player), Ntilikina is the second-worst player in his draft class

Says a lot that the knicks top priority in this draft is still a PG

[Richard4444]

In that scenario I would think the knicks would try to trade back several spots to someone who wanted wiseman and then took cole anthony plus another asset. I'm not sure which team might trade up for wiseman though

i could see the knicks just taking cole 3rd or 4th if lamelo's gone

i don't think anyone is trading up for wiseman. all the teams in the lottery got centers except golden state and there are other bigs in this draft. maybe someone will give up a 2nd to do so. this isn't really a "trade up for" draft.

well I mean just try. if you're 3rd and GS is 5th reach out to them and see if they want to move up a couple spots for wiseman. If cole is really falling to 10-14 range, call the kings or whoever is back there and see if they want to select cole for us and move up for wiseman. If not, the knicks would probably just reach and take cole early.

Before anything, I would see about trading up for lamelo. I think we should be going all out trying to get him like the mavs did with luka. But if some team like the Bulls wins the lotto and they are enamored with him that might not be an option

There is a reason that GSW dont have a great Center for several years. They dont value Centers. They pay big money to wings and PGs. They get Vet Miniumus, MLE and second rounders to play as centers. I dont think they will waste a high pick with a Center. Besides, Centers take time to develop and learn how to play in NBA, especially in defense. GSW is a win now team.

[robillionaire]

i don't think anyone is trading up for wiseman. all the teams in the lottery got centers except golden state and there are other bigs in this draft. maybe someone will give up a 2nd to do so. this isn't really a "trade up for" draft.

well I mean just try. if you're 3rd and GS is 5th reach out to them and see if they want to move up a couple spots for wiseman. If cole is really falling to 10-14 range, call the kings or whoever is back there and see if they want to select cole for us and move up for wiseman. If not, the knicks would probably just reach and take cole early.

Before anything, I would see about trading up for lamelo. I think we should be going all out trying to get him like the mavs did with luka. But if some team like the Bulls wins the lotto and they are enamored with him that might not be an option

There is a reason that GSW dont have a great Center for several years. They dont value Centers. They pay big money to wings and PGs. They get Vet Miniumus, MLE and second rounders to play as centers. I dont think they will waste a high pick with a Center. Besides, Centers take time to develop and learn how to play in NBA, especially in defense. GSW is a win now team.

They should just trade the pick then because none of these rookies are really win now players

[3toheadmelo]

He improved a little this year but his negatives still outweigh his positives by a large margin. Which is why he a bench role player

• Ntilikina’s shooting needs substantial work. Ntilikina has the 17th lowest effective field goal percentage for any player with at least 1,000 shots in his first three seasons since 1990. And only Ronnie Price has a lower effective field goal percentage (minimum 1,000 shots) since the start of the 2010-11 season —

The long mid-range jumpers remain a part of his repertoire and a large one. Ntilikina took long 2s on 24 percent of his shot attempts, per Cleaning The Glass, which put him in the 89th percentile among point guards — somehow still down from his rookie season when he shot them 35 percent of the time. To save a debate about the efficacy and place of the mid-range jumper for the cranky retired players and the take industrial complex, Ntilikina wasn’t even good at them. He shot 41 percent on these, which puts him in the bottom half at his position. Shooting bad shots and missing them too often is no way to live. Ntilikina has an affinity for the shot. It’s a part of his pregame workouts and he seems to look for it as a go-to move when defenses sag on him. At the very least he could choose to take a step back when the defender guarding him is giving him the 3 or too far off to truly contest.

By career VORP (value over replacement player), Ntilikina is the second-worst player in his draft class

Says a lot that the knicks top priority in this draft is still a PG

I just hope we don’t reach for a point guard if a better player is available that plays a different position. We can still get Cade Cunningham or some other PG next year worse case scenario.

[Deeeez Knicks]

Frank is at least good on one end and improving on the other. Defense goes underappreciated, but is still very important. He really isn't that far away from being a productive/positive player.

If we draft someone like Cole/LaMelo, a versatile defensive guard would pair well as a nice compliment even if it's off the bench.

[Richard4444]

I'm still holding out hope knox could turn into a decent rotation player if he puts in the work required to improve. he's still pretty young. younger than about half the players in this draft. I'm just going to think of him as another incoming rookie who had a couple tough seasons and hope he really busts his ass this summer. the knicks should have stashed him in the g league and let him get more developmental time

Knox has shown a lot more flashes that he won't be a bust than most. Knicks just messing up his development and burying him on the bench.

I dont buy this theory of Knox being wronged by the coach staff. Poor Knox.

Knox averaged 18m for game and played against the others teams bench players for most the time. And sucked. I dont remember another exemple of player playing so poorly for more than 15 minutes a game last season. Even Reddish improved at the end of the season. And he was a rookie.

He still has potential, great height, frame and range. But he needs to improve his game before gaining more playing time.

[Deeeez Knicks]

What if we end up picking 3rd and Edwards/lamelo are off the board? trade back for one of the PG”s or take wiseman?

I would just take Hayes, who I view as most valuable available in that spot. If we could trade back and still get him would also do that, but depending on the order he could easily go top 5 in this draft.

Wiseman will put up numbers but I think a good playmaking guard or wing would be more valuable for us.

[3toheadmelo]

What if we end up picking 3rd and Edwards/lamelo are off the board? trade back for one of the PG”s or take wiseman?

I would just take Hayes, who I view as most valuable available in that spot. If we could trade back and still get him would also do that, but depending on the order he could easily go top 5 in this draft.

Wiseman will put up numbers but I think a good playmaking guard or wing would be more valuable for us.

What if we get Cade Cunningham next year to pair up with Wiseman

[RHODEY]

It could happen. I could see Cole dropping from 17 to 27...He'd be a solid pick there - maybe.

That works. Doesn't matter how it happens

One thing is for certain though, Knicks aint drafting Killian Hayes because nobody got time for that

I actually agree with you on that, I've seen the light, the knicks won't draft Hayes. They aren't drafting haliburton either. It's going to be lamelo or cole based on draft position, that's it

I reluctantly agree too . I feel like they should consider consider Hayes and Hali, but they likely wont.