ImageImageImageImageImage

Around The NBA - Regular Season version (Harden traded...now what?)

Moderators: mpharris36, j4remi, HerSports85, NoLayupRule, GONYK, Jeff Van Gully, dakomish23, Deeeez Knicks

User avatar
TheGreenArrow
RealGM
Posts: 27,594
And1: 43,101
Joined: Sep 13, 2017

Re: Around The NBA - Regular Season version (Harden traded...now what?) 

Post#1841 » by TheGreenArrow » Tue Dec 5, 2023 2:01 pm

dakomish23 wrote:
TheGreenArrow wrote:
dakomish23 wrote:
That is the last guy I thought you'd be against :lol:


He’s the type of player that puts up good numbers in the regular season but in a playoff type environment his game will get exposed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

He can’t play defense and he’s not effecetive when the game slows down and you have to consistently create offense in the half court!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dude is the Ultimate Fraud!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Sorry GA. Just don’t take it out on whomever is at the bottom of the well in your basement.

Read on Twitter
?s=20


He took horrible shots down the stretch because he couldn’t break anyone down and was lucky they went in!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In a playoff environment when a team has more than one game to scout and play against you he will get exposed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Can’t wait to see it happen in the playoffs if he even makes it there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
User avatar
Iron Mantis
RealGM
Posts: 27,193
And1: 27,899
Joined: Aug 12, 2006

Re: Around The NBA - Regular Season version (Harden traded...now what?) 

Post#1842 » by Iron Mantis » Tue Dec 5, 2023 2:22 pm

ezmoney707 wrote:This Pelican offense is so weird that they have Zion sitting in the corner on offense instead of the block or foul line extended

"Superstar" player of the week Randle for Zion and picks.

Who says no?
Image
cgmw
RealGM
Posts: 22,540
And1: 10,440
Joined: Jul 23, 2003
Location: Winning now since 1973
Contact:
 

Re: Around The NBA - Regular Season version (Harden traded...now what?) 

Post#1843 » by cgmw » Tue Dec 5, 2023 2:23 pm

Pels giving off mini-Nuggets vibes. Zion is no Jokic, but their depth is impressive. If they can stay healthy for the playoffs, they’ll be a very tough out. But they won’t (stay healthy).
"Sell the team. Sell the team. Sell the team."
User avatar
Chanel Bomber
RealGM
Posts: 23,902
And1: 42,015
Joined: Sep 20, 2018
 

Re: Around The NBA - Regular Season version (Harden traded...now what?) 

Post#1844 » by Chanel Bomber » Tue Dec 5, 2023 2:35 pm

j4remi wrote:
Chanel Bomber wrote:
jvsimonetti0514 wrote:
I totally disagree. The way bigger issue is the continued devalue of the regular season. The rating distance with the nfl is growing even worse and they need a real pitch to the networks to keep growing the league. Judging how the nba leads in social impression means that nba fans don’t even like watching the nba. Have to spice it up somehow.

I’m sure they first pitched the champions league, some people thought it devalue their countries league but Naples went wild when Napoli won the Scudetto last year. That’s not even the only tournament they do in European soccer either. This just doesn’t have the prestige of those yet.

It's a flawed analogy because these different European competitions are among different leagues (either across countries or across domestic divisions) that convene teams that would not normally have the opportunity to face eachother within their domestic league. The NBA, on the other hand, is a closed circuit. The NBA tournament makes 0 conceptual sense besides as a cash grab that is devoid of meaning.

The biggest problems are the officiating, the amount of stoppage of play and the way foreign players are covered (the disconnect between a league that is used as a soft power tool and its best players being international).

This tournament will backfire in the long run. It will enhance the RS but diminish the playoffs. I think it's a strategic calamity long term.


UEFA fans aren't fooled by the tournaments into devaluing the League championships just because their teams won a FA Cup. I don't think NBA fans would devalue the NBA Championship either. Winning the FA Cup is an achievement, and middling teams that can't afford to compete with the Man City's of the world do get to provide their fanbases with something to celebrate, but my favorite team has won the most FA Cups in history and the only thing the fanbase values out of it is a guaranteed slot in the Champion's League (since we haven't always been guaranteed to finish top-4) and the revenue increase that comes with a few more meaningful games.

I think the IST is flawed on this rollout, but it's a cool idea and something they can try to tweak for better results. I think it could be cool if they removed the regular season W/L implications, and expanded rosters for the IST games. The idea would be that teams can send in developmental guys from the end of the bench and G-League guys that have played well, and put them into bigger arenas (plus the 500K payout is way more meaningful for a G-Leaguer than a max contract player). But that comes with its own set of risks, particularly whether the second-units would command enough attention to warrant it.

But regardless, I wouldn't stress about IST taking away glory from the NBA Championship. The IST can work, but it'll take time to iron out the best approach.

You add a trophy for the exact same pool of competitors (not the case for the FA cup), it will take away from the value of the NBA championship. It will be a consolation prize that NBA franchises can sell their fans on, besides for the consistently or recently successful.

If the Knicks ever win this tournament, James Dolan and MSG will sell it as a meaningful achievement and - if fans go along with it - it will inevitably release some of the pressure on winning a championship.

If the cup turns out to be meaningless, interest in the tournament will wane with time, and all this rollout will have proven unnecessary, and a damaging diversion from the league's actual problems.

The analogy to European soccer doesn't work because the leagues are structurally different. The NBA doesn't have the different tiers or the relegation system to make it make sense conceptually in the way that the FA Cup does.
cgmw
RealGM
Posts: 22,540
And1: 10,440
Joined: Jul 23, 2003
Location: Winning now since 1973
Contact:
 

Re: Around The NBA - Regular Season version (Harden traded...now what?) 

Post#1845 » by cgmw » Tue Dec 5, 2023 2:42 pm

Chanel Bomber wrote:
j4remi wrote:
Chanel Bomber wrote:It's a flawed analogy because these different European competitions are among different leagues (either across countries or across domestic divisions) that convene teams that would not normally have the opportunity to face eachother within their domestic league. The NBA, on the other hand, is a closed circuit. The NBA tournament makes 0 conceptual sense besides as a cash grab that is devoid of meaning.

The biggest problems are the officiating, the amount of stoppage of play and the way foreign players are covered (the disconnect between a league that is used as a soft power tool and its best players being international).

This tournament will backfire in the long run. It will enhance the RS but diminish the playoffs. I think it's a strategic calamity long term.


UEFA fans aren't fooled by the tournaments into devaluing the League championships just because their teams won a FA Cup. I don't think NBA fans would devalue the NBA Championship either. Winning the FA Cup is an achievement, and middling teams that can't afford to compete with the Man City's of the world do get to provide their fanbases with something to celebrate, but my favorite team has won the most FA Cups in history and the only thing the fanbase values out of it is a guaranteed slot in the Champion's League (since we haven't always been guaranteed to finish top-4) and the revenue increase that comes with a few more meaningful games.

I think the IST is flawed on this rollout, but it's a cool idea and something they can try to tweak for better results. I think it could be cool if they removed the regular season W/L implications, and expanded rosters for the IST games. The idea would be that teams can send in developmental guys from the end of the bench and G-League guys that have played well, and put them into bigger arenas (plus the 500K payout is way more meaningful for a G-Leaguer than a max contract player). But that comes with its own set of risks, particularly whether the second-units would command enough attention to warrant it.

But regardless, I wouldn't stress about IST taking away glory from the NBA Championship. The IST can work, but it'll take time to iron out the best approach.

You add a trophy for the exact same pool of competitors, it will take away from the value of the NBA championship. It will be a consolation prize that NBA franchises can sell their fans on, besides for the consistently or recently successful.

If the Knicks ever win this tournament, James Dolan and MSG will sell it as a meaningful achievement and - if fans go along with it - it will inevitably release some of the pressure on winning a championship.

If the cup turns out to be meaningless, interest in the tournament will wane with time, and all this rollout will have proven unnecessary, and a damaging diversion from the league's actual problems.

The analogy to European soccer doesn't work because the leagues are structurally different.

I love when you get your teeth around an idea and pour paragraph after paragraph defending it.

Idk if I really feel this way or whether I’m just baiting you into further diatribe for my own enjoyment, but the IST is about the money for role players, not the trophy.

The bullsh*t clout that a team like the Knicks would receive is exactly the same bullsh*t clout that has always existed to attract FAs and positive sentiment from the media. It’s just now focused on a flashy tournament with colorful courts and weirdly gangster ad campaigns.

Ms. Congeniality might be a consolidation prize, but it’s also a helluva movie. And whatever your response, don’t you dare utter a bad word about Sandy Bullock!

Also let’s not forget Adam Silver is running a media entertainment company. Are you not entertained?
"Sell the team. Sell the team. Sell the team."
User avatar
Iron Mantis
RealGM
Posts: 27,193
And1: 27,899
Joined: Aug 12, 2006

Re: Around The NBA - Regular Season version (Harden traded...now what?) 

Post#1846 » by Iron Mantis » Tue Dec 5, 2023 2:43 pm

Every time Haliburton has a great game I want to vomit.

Hearing Silver announce "Obi Toppin" instead of Tyrese Haliburton was easily one of the top "WTH??" moments I've endured as a Knicks fan.
Image
jvsimonetti0514
General Manager
Posts: 9,635
And1: 9,858
Joined: Dec 22, 2015
     

Re: Around The NBA - Regular Season version (Harden traded...now what?) 

Post#1847 » by jvsimonetti0514 » Tue Dec 5, 2023 2:46 pm

Chanel Bomber wrote:
jvsimonetti0514 wrote:
Chanel Bomber wrote:I think this is awful and counterproductive in the long run because it diminishes the NBA's most valuable asset (the NBA championship). Its value comes from its scarcity. The cup removes this element of scarcity.

If the Knicks win the tournament, James Dolan will sell it as a meaningful achievement because it puts less pressure on them to actually win a championship. Which is what we should want, as fans. This applies to most NBA franchises but especially to non-title favorites.

I think this tournament is a disaster that will cost us fans and the NBA in the long run. I'll go as far as to say that if the NBA were to crumble in years to come, this will likely be remembered as the starting point.


I totally disagree. The way bigger issue is the continued devalue of the regular season. The rating distance with the nfl is growing even worse and they need a real pitch to the networks to keep growing the league. Judging how the nba leads in social impression means that nba fans don’t even like watching the nba. Have to spice it up somehow.

I’m sure they first pitched the champions league, some people thought it devalue their countries league but Naples went wild when Napoli won the Scudetto last year. That’s not even the only tournament they do in European soccer either. This just doesn’t have the prestige of those yet.

It's a flawed analogy because these different European competitions are among different leagues (either across countries or across domestic divisions) that convene teams that would not normally have the opportunity to face eachother within their domestic league. The NBA, on the other hand, is a closed circuit. The NBA tournament makes 0 conceptual sense besides as a cash grab that is devoid of meaning.

The biggest problems are the officiating, the amount of stoppage of play and the way foreign players are covered (the disconnect between a league that is used as a soft power tool and its best players being international).

This tournament will backfire in the long run. It will enhance the RS but diminish the playoffs. I think it's a strategic calamity long term.


It’s more likely that this tournament doesn’t resonate with regular fans and they cancel it before it will destroy the nba by diminishing the playoffs. Especially if the normie fans buy into it being a soulless cash grab.

I only picked the champion leagues cuz that’s clearly what the nba is modeling this tournament after. If anything they should model it after Coppa Italia. Which is another tournament in Serie A, which basically allows lower teams into euro cup and champions leagues. Teams that already qualify for those matches still try and win for the prestige. For example, Inter Milan was last years winner.

You can just do that for the twist in next years tournament. Guarantee a top 6 finish for the winner as long as they’re in the play in. It still makes it clear the playoffs are more important but give there more reason to have it than just money.
I'm apart of a Knicks podcast! You Should check it out!
youtube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCWW9GUVpNULS97PyptXXU4w
User avatar
Chanel Bomber
RealGM
Posts: 23,902
And1: 42,015
Joined: Sep 20, 2018
 

Re: Around The NBA - Regular Season version (Harden traded...now what?) 

Post#1848 » by Chanel Bomber » Tue Dec 5, 2023 2:51 pm

cgmw wrote:
Chanel Bomber wrote:
j4remi wrote:
UEFA fans aren't fooled by the tournaments into devaluing the League championships just because their teams won a FA Cup. I don't think NBA fans would devalue the NBA Championship either. Winning the FA Cup is an achievement, and middling teams that can't afford to compete with the Man City's of the world do get to provide their fanbases with something to celebrate, but my favorite team has won the most FA Cups in history and the only thing the fanbase values out of it is a guaranteed slot in the Champion's League (since we haven't always been guaranteed to finish top-4) and the revenue increase that comes with a few more meaningful games.

I think the IST is flawed on this rollout, but it's a cool idea and something they can try to tweak for better results. I think it could be cool if they removed the regular season W/L implications, and expanded rosters for the IST games. The idea would be that teams can send in developmental guys from the end of the bench and G-League guys that have played well, and put them into bigger arenas (plus the 500K payout is way more meaningful for a G-Leaguer than a max contract player). But that comes with its own set of risks, particularly whether the second-units would command enough attention to warrant it.

But regardless, I wouldn't stress about IST taking away glory from the NBA Championship. The IST can work, but it'll take time to iron out the best approach.

You add a trophy for the exact same pool of competitors, it will take away from the value of the NBA championship. It will be a consolation prize that NBA franchises can sell their fans on, besides for the consistently or recently successful.

If the Knicks ever win this tournament, James Dolan and MSG will sell it as a meaningful achievement and - if fans go along with it - it will inevitably release some of the pressure on winning a championship.

If the cup turns out to be meaningless, interest in the tournament will wane with time, and all this rollout will have proven unnecessary, and a damaging diversion from the league's actual problems.

The analogy to European soccer doesn't work because the leagues are structurally different.

I love when you get your teeth around an idea and pour paragraph after paragraph defending it.

Idk if I really feel this way or whether I’m just baiting you into further diatribe for my own enjoyment, but the IST is about the money for role players, not the trophy.

The bullsh*t clout that a team like the Knicks would receive is exactly the same bullsh*t clout that has always existed to attract FAs and positive sentiment from the media. It’s just now focused on a flashy tournament with colorful courts and weirdly gangster ad campaigns.

Ms. Congeniality might be a consolidation prize, but it’s also a helluva movie. And whatever your response, don’t you dare utter a bad word about Sandy Bullock!

Don’t forget, the nba is primarily a media entertainment company. Are you not entertained?

We both know that MSG would milk a tournament win like there's no tomorrow and add it to the Knicks history DVD like it actually means something.

"REED, CLYDE, RANDLE, A LEGACY OF GLORY"

Would they raise a banner in the rafters? I wouldn't put it past them. The original in-season tournament winners. Something to remember forever.
User avatar
3toheadmelo
RealGM
Posts: 95,453
And1: 136,794
Joined: Feb 15, 2015
 

Re: Around The NBA - Regular Season version (Harden traded...now what?) 

Post#1849 » by 3toheadmelo » Tue Dec 5, 2023 2:55 pm

Shout out to the legend Rick carislie for benching Obi bargnani in the 4th quarter (once again) for the defensive stalwart Nesmith. What a difference maker he was last night!
Image
It’s like when lil bitches make subliminal records, if it ain’t directed directly at me, I don’t respect it
cgmw
RealGM
Posts: 22,540
And1: 10,440
Joined: Jul 23, 2003
Location: Winning now since 1973
Contact:
 

Re: Around The NBA - Regular Season version (Harden traded...now what?) 

Post#1850 » by cgmw » Tue Dec 5, 2023 2:56 pm

Chanel Bomber wrote:
cgmw wrote:
Chanel Bomber wrote:You add a trophy for the exact same pool of competitors, it will take away from the value of the NBA championship. It will be a consolation prize that NBA franchises can sell their fans on, besides for the consistently or recently successful.

If the Knicks ever win this tournament, James Dolan and MSG will sell it as a meaningful achievement and - if fans go along with it - it will inevitably release some of the pressure on winning a championship.

If the cup turns out to be meaningless, interest in the tournament will wane with time, and all this rollout will have proven unnecessary, and a damaging diversion from the league's actual problems.

The analogy to European soccer doesn't work because the leagues are structurally different.

I love when you get your teeth around an idea and pour paragraph after paragraph defending it.

Idk if I really feel this way or whether I’m just baiting you into further diatribe for my own enjoyment, but the IST is about the money for role players, not the trophy.

The bullsh*t clout that a team like the Knicks would receive is exactly the same bullsh*t clout that has always existed to attract FAs and positive sentiment from the media. It’s just now focused on a flashy tournament with colorful courts and weirdly gangster ad campaigns.

Ms. Congeniality might be a consolidation prize, but it’s also a helluva movie. And whatever your response, don’t you dare utter a bad word about Sandy Bullock!

Don’t forget, the nba is primarily a media entertainment company. Are you not entertained?

We both know that MSG would milk a tournament win like there's no tomorrow and add it to the Knicks history DVD like it actually means something.

"REED, CLYDE, RANDLE, A LEGACY OF GLORY"

Would they raise a banner in the rafters? I wouldn't put it past them. The original in-season tournament winners. Something to remember forever.

And he’d be correct because ain’t no way in hell the Knicks are beating all these teams who are clearly better than them.
"Sell the team. Sell the team. Sell the team."
User avatar
god shammgod
RealGM
Posts: 138,249
And1: 136,755
Joined: Feb 18, 2006

Re: Around The NBA - Regular Season version (Harden traded...now what?) 

Post#1851 » by god shammgod » Tue Dec 5, 2023 2:56 pm

if a lot more people are gambling on this tournament than regular season games that might be the only success the league and it's partners need
User avatar
god shammgod
RealGM
Posts: 138,249
And1: 136,755
Joined: Feb 18, 2006

Re: Around The NBA - Regular Season version (Harden traded...now what?) 

Post#1852 » by god shammgod » Tue Dec 5, 2023 2:57 pm

3toheadmelo wrote:Shout out to the legend Rick carislie for benching Obi bargnani in the 4th quarter (once again) for the defensive stalwart Nesmith. What a difference maker he was last night!


the level of pettiness you have in you :lol: i love it
User avatar
Chanel Bomber
RealGM
Posts: 23,902
And1: 42,015
Joined: Sep 20, 2018
 

Re: Around The NBA - Regular Season version (Harden traded...now what?) 

Post#1853 » by Chanel Bomber » Tue Dec 5, 2023 2:58 pm

jvsimonetti0514 wrote:
Chanel Bomber wrote:
jvsimonetti0514 wrote:
I totally disagree. The way bigger issue is the continued devalue of the regular season. The rating distance with the nfl is growing even worse and they need a real pitch to the networks to keep growing the league. Judging how the nba leads in social impression means that nba fans don’t even like watching the nba. Have to spice it up somehow.

I’m sure they first pitched the champions league, some people thought it devalue their countries league but Naples went wild when Napoli won the Scudetto last year. That’s not even the only tournament they do in European soccer either. This just doesn’t have the prestige of those yet.

It's a flawed analogy because these different European competitions are among different leagues (either across countries or across domestic divisions) that convene teams that would not normally have the opportunity to face eachother within their domestic league. The NBA, on the other hand, is a closed circuit. The NBA tournament makes 0 conceptual sense besides as a cash grab that is devoid of meaning.

The biggest problems are the officiating, the amount of stoppage of play and the way foreign players are covered (the disconnect between a league that is used as a soft power tool and its best players being international).

This tournament will backfire in the long run. It will enhance the RS but diminish the playoffs. I think it's a strategic calamity long term.


It’s more likely that this tournament doesn’t resonate with regular fans and they cancel it before it will destroy the nba by diminishing the playoffs. Especially if the normie fans buy into it being a soulless cash grab.

I only picked the champion leagues cuz that’s clearly what the nba is modeling this tournament after. If anything they should model it after Coppa Italia. Which is another tournament in Serie A, which basically allows lower teams into euro cup and champions leagues. Teams that already qualify for those matches still try and win for the prestige. For example, Inter Milan was last years winner.

You can just do that for the twist in next years tournament. Guarantee a top 6 finish for the winner as long as they’re in the play in. It still makes it clear the playoffs are more important but give there more reason to have it than just money.

But the point of Copa Italia is that it allows teams from different tiers to compete against the elite. There's no point for the NBA because there is no relegation system - it's a closed circuit. There's no inherent meaning to the Cup besides profit.

If the tournament fails then the NBA is wasting its time and resources when it could invest in addressing other more pressing issues. But I don't exactly trust in thr integrity of the league so their reluctance to do so doesn't exactly surprise me.

I'm not sure why a team would be compelled to play the rest of the RS if they've secured a PO spot by winter thanks to the IST. And would that be fair to a team that's earned their spot by winning more games across the RS in the scenario where a mid team wins it?
User avatar
3toheadmelo
RealGM
Posts: 95,453
And1: 136,794
Joined: Feb 15, 2015
 

Re: Around The NBA - Regular Season version (Harden traded...now what?) 

Post#1854 » by 3toheadmelo » Tue Dec 5, 2023 3:05 pm

god shammgod wrote:
3toheadmelo wrote:Shout out to the legend Rick carislie for benching Obi bargnani in the 4th quarter (once again) for the defensive stalwart Nesmith. What a difference maker he was last night!


the level of pettiness you have in you :lol: i love it

Image
Image
It’s like when lil bitches make subliminal records, if it ain’t directed directly at me, I don’t respect it
User avatar
j4remi
Forum Mod - Knicks
Forum Mod - Knicks
Posts: 38,256
And1: 20,198
Joined: Jun 23, 2008
         

Re: Around The NBA - Regular Season version (Harden traded...now what?) 

Post#1855 » by j4remi » Tue Dec 5, 2023 3:25 pm

Chanel Bomber wrote:You add a trophy for the exact same pool of competitors (not the case for the FA cup), it will take away from the value of the NBA championship. It will be a consolation prize that NBA franchises can sell their fans on, besides for the consistently or recently successful.

If the Knicks ever win this tournament, James Dolan and MSG will sell it as a meaningful achievement and - if fans go along with it - it will inevitably release some of the pressure on winning a championship.

If the cup turns out to be meaningless, interest in the tournament will wane with time, and all this rollout will have proven unnecessary, and a damaging diversion from the league's actual problems.

The analogy to European soccer doesn't work because the leagues are structurally different. The NBA doesn't have the different tiers or the relegation system to make it make sense conceptually in the way that the FA Cup does.


A trophy isn't changing anything. Nobody's confusing an IST win for a NBA Championship. There's a vocal segment of fans that won't even count the Bubble Championship as a meaningfully equivalent accolade.

The IST doesn't disrupt or hide any of the other issues with the league.

At worst, it's a contrived attempt to mimic stuff that works overseas and doesn't catch on. At best, it gives fans one more thing to be invested in during a long NBA season.

The European soccer analogy works for the simple concept of "no one is gullible enough to mistake a midseason tournament win for a NBA Championship equivalent." The devaluing NBA Titles thing just doesn't have much support IMO. Is there an actual comparison in some sporting event that you can point to where a championship meant less because of midseason prizes?
C- Turner | Wiseman
PF- Hunter |Clowney | Fleming
SF- Strus | George
SG- Bridges | Dick | Bogdanovic
PG- Haliburton | Sasser
User avatar
Chanel Bomber
RealGM
Posts: 23,902
And1: 42,015
Joined: Sep 20, 2018
 

Re: Around The NBA - Regular Season version (Harden traded...now what?) 

Post#1856 » by Chanel Bomber » Tue Dec 5, 2023 3:37 pm

j4remi wrote:
Chanel Bomber wrote:You add a trophy for the exact same pool of competitors (not the case for the FA cup), it will take away from the value of the NBA championship. It will be a consolation prize that NBA franchises can sell their fans on, besides for the consistently or recently successful.

If the Knicks ever win this tournament, James Dolan and MSG will sell it as a meaningful achievement and - if fans go along with it - it will inevitably release some of the pressure on winning a championship.

If the cup turns out to be meaningless, interest in the tournament will wane with time, and all this rollout will have proven unnecessary, and a damaging diversion from the league's actual problems.

The analogy to European soccer doesn't work because the leagues are structurally different. The NBA doesn't have the different tiers or the relegation system to make it make sense conceptually in the way that the FA Cup does.


A trophy isn't changing anything. Nobody's confusing an IST win for a NBA Championship. There's a vocal segment of fans that won't even count the Bubble Championship as a meaningfully equivalent accolade.

The IST doesn't disrupt or hide any of the other issues with the league.

At worst, it's a contrived attempt to mimic stuff that works overseas and doesn't catch on. At best, it gives fans one more thing to be invested in during a long NBA season.

The European soccer analogy works for the simple concept of "no one is gullible enough to mistake a midseason tournament win for a NBA Championship equivalent." The devaluing NBA Titles thing just doesn't have much support IMO. Is there an actual comparison in some sporting event that you can point to where a championship meant less because of midseason prizes?

If Tottenham win a FA Cup it will inevitably release some of the pressure on the team's inability to win the PL. It already happens to some degree now. The difference is that these are deeply-rooted traditions that have a purpose (convening teams from different tiers in the same competition) - the NBA is artifically reproducing it except it serves no purpose besides short-term profit.

I don't know if the IST will be successful long term or not. But I think whether the outcome is positive or negative, it will either prove to be a waste of resources or have a damaging impact on the whole.

We'll see if teams start hanging tournament banners. The NBA pulls a lot of its narrative power from the scarcity of the championship. If the cup is relevant, that sense of scarcity will inevitably fade a bit. If it isn't, then what are we discussing?
User avatar
sol537
RealGM
Posts: 15,362
And1: 7,922
Joined: Nov 07, 2001

Re: Around The NBA - Regular Season version (Harden traded...now what?) 

Post#1857 » by sol537 » Tue Dec 5, 2023 3:46 pm

So far the tournament has been a major success by all metrics. It seems guaranteed that the league will continue it.
User avatar
NoDopeOnSundays
RealGM
Posts: 27,165
And1: 56,334
Joined: Nov 22, 2005
         

Re: Around The NBA - Regular Season version (Harden traded...now what?) 

Post#1858 » by NoDopeOnSundays » Tue Dec 5, 2023 3:54 pm

Chanel Bomber wrote:
j4remi wrote:
Chanel Bomber wrote:You add a trophy for the exact same pool of competitors (not the case for the FA cup), it will take away from the value of the NBA championship. It will be a consolation prize that NBA franchises can sell their fans on, besides for the consistently or recently successful.

If the Knicks ever win this tournament, James Dolan and MSG will sell it as a meaningful achievement and - if fans go along with it - it will inevitably release some of the pressure on winning a championship.

If the cup turns out to be meaningless, interest in the tournament will wane with time, and all this rollout will have proven unnecessary, and a damaging diversion from the league's actual problems.

The analogy to European soccer doesn't work because the leagues are structurally different. The NBA doesn't have the different tiers or the relegation system to make it make sense conceptually in the way that the FA Cup does.


A trophy isn't changing anything. Nobody's confusing an IST win for a NBA Championship. There's a vocal segment of fans that won't even count the Bubble Championship as a meaningfully equivalent accolade.

The IST doesn't disrupt or hide any of the other issues with the league.

At worst, it's a contrived attempt to mimic stuff that works overseas and doesn't catch on. At best, it gives fans one more thing to be invested in during a long NBA season.

The European soccer analogy works for the simple concept of "no one is gullible enough to mistake a midseason tournament win for a NBA Championship equivalent." The devaluing NBA Titles thing just doesn't have much support IMO. Is there an actual comparison in some sporting event that you can point to where a championship meant less because of midseason prizes?

If Tottenham win a FA Cup it will inevitably release some of the pressure on the team's inability to win the PL. It already happens to some degree now. The difference is that these are deeply-rooted traditions that have a purpose (convening teams from different tiers in the same competition) - the NBA is artifically reproducing it except it serves no purpose besides short-term profit.

I don't know if the IST will be successful long term or not. But I think whether the outcome is positive or negative, it will either prove to be a waste of resources or have a damaging impact on the whole.

We'll see if teams start hanging tournament banners. The NBA pulls a lot of its narrative power from the scarcity of the championship. If the cup is relevant, that sense of scarcity will inevitably fade a bit. If it isn't, then what are we discussing?



It won't have a damaging impact, it's really no different than the Maui invitational in college basketball, nobody really remembers who wins the title and it doesn't devalue anything. It's just a group of good teams playing one another for early season bragging rights with raised stakes. Almost all of these players grew up playing in tournaments that had no impact overall on their season or end of season titles, yet it mattered to them. The biggest issue with the tournament before it started was hoping the players would care, and they clearly do because it's something familiar.

What we need to see is if teams that do well in it have a spring board effect. That was the biggest game of Haliburtons career wise so far, and probably Hields as well since he's never been to the playoffs. I want to see if just playing in slightly more pressurized games will end up benefitting them.
User avatar
j4remi
Forum Mod - Knicks
Forum Mod - Knicks
Posts: 38,256
And1: 20,198
Joined: Jun 23, 2008
         

Re: Around The NBA - Regular Season version (Harden traded...now what?) 

Post#1859 » by j4remi » Tue Dec 5, 2023 3:58 pm

Chanel Bomber wrote:If Tottenham win a FA Cup it will inevitably release some of the pressure on the team's inability to win the PL. It already happens to some degree now. The difference is that these are deeply-rooted traditions that have a purpose (convening teams from different tiers in the same competition) - the NBA is artifically reproducing it except it serves no purpose besides short-term profit.

I don't know if the IST will be successful long term or not. But I think whether the outcome is positive or negative, it will either prove to be a waste of resources or have a damaging impact on the whole.

We'll see if teams start hanging tournament banners. The NBA pulls a lot of its narrative power from the scarcity of the championship. If the cup is relevant, that sense of scarcity will inevitably fade a bit. If it isn't, then what are we discussing?


The only reason Tottenham winning the FA Cup would be meaningful is because they're sitting outside the top-4 right now. It's the practical stuff that gives value to the Cups.

Also, a deep-rooted tradition has to start somewhere. Thanksgiving football and Christmas Basketball are traditions at this point. But I don't think adding a trophy for the winners like it's Bowl Week would have ANY impact on how much people care about the actual Superbowl or NBA title.

What would even constitute a waste of resources? The fresh paint job and jerseys? I don't see what the big loss is.

I'm guessing they will do something ceremonial about winning an IST, but that's still not gonna magically devalue the NBA championship. It just feels like an imaginary problem. Whether the Knicks win or lose the tournament, their progress as a franchise will be measured in April/May. December games will be a fun memory, and that's about it.

At the end of the day, if the NBA can clean up the schedule issues that have risen from the tournament, it's ultimately harmless even at it's lowest value. It'll at least throw some extra bread to 12th men.
C- Turner | Wiseman
PF- Hunter |Clowney | Fleming
SF- Strus | George
SG- Bridges | Dick | Bogdanovic
PG- Haliburton | Sasser
jvsimonetti0514
General Manager
Posts: 9,635
And1: 9,858
Joined: Dec 22, 2015
     

Re: Around The NBA - Regular Season version (Harden traded...now what?) 

Post#1860 » by jvsimonetti0514 » Tue Dec 5, 2023 4:02 pm

Chanel Bomber wrote:
jvsimonetti0514 wrote:
Chanel Bomber wrote:It's a flawed analogy because these different European competitions are among different leagues (either across countries or across domestic divisions) that convene teams that would not normally have the opportunity to face eachother within their domestic league. The NBA, on the other hand, is a closed circuit. The NBA tournament makes 0 conceptual sense besides as a cash grab that is devoid of meaning.

The biggest problems are the officiating, the amount of stoppage of play and the way foreign players are covered (the disconnect between a league that is used as a soft power tool and its best players being international).

This tournament will backfire in the long run. It will enhance the RS but diminish the playoffs. I think it's a strategic calamity long term.


It’s more likely that this tournament doesn’t resonate with regular fans and they cancel it before it will destroy the nba by diminishing the playoffs. Especially if the normie fans buy into it being a soulless cash grab.

I only picked the champion leagues cuz that’s clearly what the nba is modeling this tournament after. If anything they should model it after Coppa Italia. Which is another tournament in Serie A, which basically allows lower teams into euro cup and champions leagues. Teams that already qualify for those matches still try and win for the prestige. For example, Inter Milan was last years winner.

You can just do that for the twist in next years tournament. Guarantee a top 6 finish for the winner as long as they’re in the play in. It still makes it clear the playoffs are more important but give there more reason to have it than just money.

But the point of Copa Italia is that it allows teams from different tiers to compete against the elite. There's no point for the NBA because there is no relegation system - it's a closed circuit. There's no inherent meaning to the Cup besides profit.

If the tournament fails then the NBA is wasting its time and resources when it could invest in addressing other more pressing issues. But I don't exactly trust in thr integrity of the league so their reluctance to do so doesn't exactly surprise me.

I'm not sure why a team would be compelled to play the rest of the RS if they've secured a PO spot by winter thanks to the IST. And would that be fair to a team that's earned their spot by winning more games across the RS in the scenario where a mid team wins it?


The biggest issue with the nba is falling regular season ratings and securing a new, more expensive tv deal. Even last years finals had a 6% drop in viewers from the previous year. Most of this can’t be explained away with cord cutting, since thats counted on Nielsen and illegal streams. It seems like the investment has kinda worked for now.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/brianbushard/2023/12/04/has-the-nbas-in-season-tournament-paid-off-these-tv-ratings-suggest-yes-probably/amp/

Roughly 2 million people tuned in on national TV for a tournament game last week between the Sacramento Kings and Golden State Warriors, marking a 93% increase over a game in a “comparable window” last season, and the most-watched tournament game so far, according to the league (teams have played a combination of tournament and standard games in recent weeks, with the top eight teams in tournament matches moving on to a single-elimination bracket this week).


That Kings-Warriors game narrowly edged out the 1.9 million people who tuned in for a Warriors match on November 22 against the Phoenix Suns on ESPN, but more decisively beat the 1.4 million who watched the Boston Celtics take on the Milwaukee Bucks on the same day on ESPN, neither of which counted toward the tournament, according to data from Nielsen.

Tournament games on ESPN and TNT averaged 1.5 million viewers, a 26% increase from games played during the same time last year, while locally broadcast games are up 20% from last November, the NBA said.

During the month of November, ESPN averaged 1.52 million viewers per game while TNT averaged 1.43 million, increases of 20% and 16%, respectively, over the same time last year, CNN reported—though the NBA’s early-season audience is still a tiny fraction of the NFL, which regularly draws upwards of 15 million viewers to its marquee Sunday night games.


We’re in the world where random NFL games out draw the NBA finals. Something needs to change or it literally will end the league.

Home court advantage, giving yourself the easiest match up you can in the first round, to keep selling tickets and ads for their games, keeping their players in shape and in rhythm for the playoffs, chances of making all nba, winning end of seasons awards, making the all star game. There’s a bunch of reasons to keep playing even if you secure a top 6 seed. All it would do is just keep you out of the play in tournament too. If you fell out, that advantage would go away.

Maybe you’re right and a team will throw the rest of the season and try to finish 10th but it would do massive damage to the league and I’d imagine the nba would step in at that point. There’s a reason Hinkie never got another job. Also I’d hope players and coaches care to much to do something like that.
I'm apart of a Knicks podcast! You Should check it out!
youtube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCWW9GUVpNULS97PyptXXU4w

Return to New York Knicks