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OT: Russia-Ukraine War

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Zenzibar
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Re: OT: Russia-Ukraine War 

Post#1881 » by Zenzibar » Thu Dec 8, 2022 1:35 am

Clyde_Style wrote:
Zenzibar wrote:
Clyde_Style wrote:
your use of the word "reason" has no place in your question though

A country on your border has a right to protect itself through other alliances. That is not expansionist. Anyone arguing that Putin was provoked by NATO has got their own agenda.

but why ask in the first place? Do you really need to provide Putin with some kind of justification or do you need to place the blame on his neighbors for some reason?

Every justification used for the invasion is complete and utter BS. Russia was never endangered by any other nation so these arguments are gross and dishonest.

I find it pretty comical that joining an alliance is being spun as expansionist. Which countries that joined NATO have been expansionist?

I can answer that one. Turkey. They really have no place in NATO IMO


and We haven't been?


What does your hatred of the American government have to do with justifying Putin's invasion of Ukraine?


I'm far from a hater of America, I love beautiful America. My only qualm and responsibility as a citizen is to evaluate, the decisions my government makes. Sometimes, it takes years to have a second look from a historical perspective.
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Re: OT: Russia-Ukraine War 

Post#1882 » by Clyde_Style » Thu Dec 8, 2022 1:41 am

Zenzibar wrote:
Clyde_Style wrote:
Zenzibar wrote:
and We haven't been?


What does your hatred of the American government have to do with justifying Putin's invasion of Ukraine?


I'm far from a hater of America, I love beautiful America. My only qualm and responsibility as a citizen is to evaluate, the decisions my government makes. Sometimes, it takes years to have a second look from a historical perspective.


The topic as I understand it was whether or not (a) Nazis exist in various nations, including Ukraine prior to the war and (b) Putin's justifications for the war.

I literally have no idea what you want to say. Can you stick to a single point and drill down and answer it?

For some reason you don't want to be pinned down and your POV seems very random without you providing a little clarity. I've done my best to provide some clarity.

It does seem you want to blame the war on anyone but Putin. Why is that?
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Re: OT: Russia-Ukraine War 

Post#1883 » by Zenzibar » Thu Dec 8, 2022 1:45 am

Are We Ther Yet wrote:
Zenzibar wrote:
Are We Ther Yet wrote:
The real story of Thanksgiving has nothing to do with the Pequot massacre.
[/size][/b]

Maybe not. But I'm glad someone knows some history. :wink:

Was my point that our own history on the world front, including our own here, has been um a little dubious. When I hear scholars teach history, I listen, I've always loved historical perspectives.


Thanksgiving was made a national holiday after the civil war. There are stories about the massacre being called a Thanksgiving. Which was a term used a LOT by the British way back when. Lincoln wanted the country to unite after the war and declared the holiday that we now celebrate. There were multiple versions prior to that. It wasn't about celebrating a massacre as some suggest.

You are correct that our history has been distorted though. Things completely left out etc etc. All history is distortion of facts at some point or another. The bible has its issues as well.


https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/thanksgiving-myth-and-what-we-should-be-teaching-kids-180973655/

The Myths of the Thanksgiving Story and the Lasting Damage They Imbue

In truth, massacres, disease and American Indian tribal politics are what shaped the Pilgrim-Indian alliance at the root of the holiday


In Thanksgiving pageants held at schools across the United States, children don headdresses colored with craft-store feathers and share tables with classmates wearing black construction paper hats. It’s a tradition that pulls on a history passed down through the generations of what happened in Plymouth: local Native Americans welcomed the courageous, pioneering pilgrims to a celebratory feast.

But, as David Silverman writes in his new book This Land Is Their Land: The Wampanoag Indians, Plymouth Colony, and the Troubled History of Thanksgiving, much of that story is a myth riddled with historical inaccuracies. Beyond that, Silverman argues that the telling and retelling of these falsehoods is deeply harmful to the Wampanoag Indians whose lives and society were forever damaged after the English arrived in Plymouth.

(It goes on the say)

What is the Thanksgiving myth?

The myth is that friendly Indians, unidentified by tribe, welcome the Pilgrims to America, teach them how to live in this new place, sit down to dinner with them and then disappear. They hand off America to white people so they can create a great nation dedicated to liberty, opportunity and Christianity for the rest of the world to profit. That’s the story—it’s about Native people conceding to colonialism. It’s bloodless and in many ways an extension of the ideology of Manifest Destiny.

What are the most poignant inaccuracies in this story?

One is that history doesn’t begin for Native people until Europeans arrive. People had been in the Americas for least 12,000 years and according to some Native traditions, since the beginning of time. And having history start with the English is a way of dismissing all that. The second is that the arrival of the Mayflower is some kind of first-contact episode. It’s not. Wampanoags had a century of contact with Europeans–it was bloody and it involved slave raiding by Europeans. At least two and maybe more Wampanoags, when the Pilgrims arrived, spoke English, had already been to Europe and back and knew the very organizers of the Pilgrims’ venture.
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Re: OT: Russia-Ukraine War 

Post#1884 » by Zenzibar » Thu Dec 8, 2022 1:50 am

Clyde_Style wrote:
Zenzibar wrote:
Clyde_Style wrote:
What does your hatred of the American government have to do with justifying Putin's invasion of Ukraine?


I'm far from a hater of America, I love beautiful America. My only qualm and responsibility as a citizen is to evaluate, the decisions my government makes. Sometimes, it takes years to have a second look from a historical perspective.


The topic as I understand it was whether or not (a) Nazis exist in various nations, including Ukraine prior to the war and (b) Putin's justifications for the war.

I literally have no idea what you want to say. Can you stick to a single point and drill down and answer it?

For some reason you don't want to be pinned down and your POV seems very random without you providing a little clarity. I've done my best to provide some clarity.

It does seem you want to blame the war on anyone but Putin. Why is that?


Because you just want me to agree with your perspective, without even a consideration of my own.
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Re: OT: Russia-Ukraine War 

Post#1885 » by Clyde_Style » Thu Dec 8, 2022 1:58 am

Zenzibar wrote:
Clyde_Style wrote:
Zenzibar wrote:
I'm far from a hater of America, I love beautiful America. My only qualm and responsibility as a citizen is to evaluate, the decisions my government makes. Sometimes, it takes years to have a second look from a historical perspective.


The topic as I understand it was whether or not (a) Nazis exist in various nations, including Ukraine prior to the war and (b) Putin's justifications for the war.

I literally have no idea what you want to say. Can you stick to a single point and drill down and answer it?

For some reason you don't want to be pinned down and your POV seems very random without you providing a little clarity. I've done my best to provide some clarity.

It does seem you want to blame the war on anyone but Putin. Why is that?


Because you just want me to agree with your perspective, without even a consideration of my own.


You keep beating around the bush without ever getting to the point. Do you have a point to make or not?

For instance, you promoted Kremlin propaganda uncritically in the past and now you're pushing the idea that Putin was provoked into launching an invasion because of NATO.

I'm not making you say any of that. You posted it, not me. I'm not putting words in your mouth.

Again, what is your point?

Do you want to tell us that Putin is not the sole responsible party for invading Ukraine or not?
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Re: OT: Russia-Ukraine War 

Post#1886 » by Jalen Bluntson » Thu Dec 8, 2022 2:11 am

Zenzibar wrote:
Are We Ther Yet wrote:
Zenzibar wrote:[/size][/size][/b]

Maybe not. But I'm glad someone knows some history. :wink:

Was my point that our own history on the world front, including our own here, has been um a little dubious. When I hear scholars teach history, I listen, I've always loved historical perspectives.


Thanksgiving was made a national holiday after the civil war. There are stories about the massacre being called a Thanksgiving. Which was a term used a LOT by the British way back when. Lincoln wanted the country to unite after the war and declared the holiday that we now celebrate. There were multiple versions prior to that. It wasn't about celebrating a massacre as some suggest.

You are correct that our history has been distorted though. Things completely left out etc etc. All history is distortion of facts at some point or another. The bible has its issues as well.


https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/thanksgiving-myth-and-what-we-should-be-teaching-kids-180973655/

The Myths of the Thanksgiving Story and the Lasting Damage They Imbue

In truth, massacres, disease and American Indian tribal politics are what shaped the Pilgrim-Indian alliance at the root of the holiday


In Thanksgiving pageants held at schools across the United States, children don headdresses colored with craft-store feathers and share tables with classmates wearing black construction paper hats. It’s a tradition that pulls on a history passed down through the generations of what happened in Plymouth: local Native Americans welcomed the courageous, pioneering pilgrims to a celebratory feast.

But, as David Silverman writes in his new book This Land Is Their Land: The Wampanoag Indians, Plymouth Colony, and the Troubled History of Thanksgiving, much of that story is a myth riddled with historical inaccuracies. Beyond that, Silverman argues that the telling and retelling of these falsehoods is deeply harmful to the Wampanoag Indians whose lives and society were forever damaged after the English arrived in Plymouth.

(It goes on the say)

What is the Thanksgiving myth?

The myth is that friendly Indians, unidentified by tribe, welcome the Pilgrims to America, teach them how to live in this new place, sit down to dinner with them and then disappear. They hand off America to white people so they can create a great nation dedicated to liberty, opportunity and Christianity for the rest of the world to profit. That’s the story—it’s about Native people conceding to colonialism. It’s bloodless and in many ways an extension of the ideology of Manifest Destiny.

What are the most poignant inaccuracies in this story?

One is that history doesn’t begin for Native people until Europeans arrive. People had been in the Americas for least 12,000 years and according to some Native traditions, since the beginning of time. And having history start with the English is a way of dismissing all that. The second is that the arrival of the Mayflower is some kind of first-contact episode. It’s not. Wampanoags had a century of contact with Europeans–it was bloody and it involved slave raiding by Europeans. At least two and maybe more Wampanoags, when the Pilgrims arrived, spoke English, had already been to Europe and back and knew the very organizers of the Pilgrims’ venture.


This is BS. The wampanoags massacre was a trade war between the English and the Dutch. It is not about Thanksgiving as we know it. The first Thanksgiving was in Virginia. In 1610. It wasn't about a meal with native Americans either. It was about a successful journey across the ocean. It included fasting. It happened on Dec 4th.

There are many different versions of Thanksgiving and this BS that we celebrate a massacre is just that. It was never a national holiday until after the civil war. It was about uniting the nation, not celebrating massacre. The story of Pilgrims and indians sharing a harvest may be BS but, that's as far as the story goes. It's not about massacre.

This is a version of distortion of history that you talk about.

The continent was conquered by several foreign nations. That was the way of the world. The Native Americans were butchered by more powerful enemies. That's also the way of the world and, most nations have a hand in such acts. Pretty much all of them have done these things at one point or another.

Palestine is happening right now.
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Re: OT: Russia-Ukraine War 

Post#1887 » by Zenzibar » Thu Dec 8, 2022 2:40 am

Clyde_Style wrote:
Zenzibar wrote:
Clyde_Style wrote:
The topic as I understand it was whether or not (a) Nazis exist in various nations, including Ukraine prior to the war and (b) Putin's justifications for the war.

I literally have no idea what you want to say. Can you stick to a single point and drill down and answer it?

For some reason you don't want to be pinned down and your POV seems very random without you providing a little clarity. I've done my best to provide some clarity.

It does seem you want to blame the war on anyone but Putin. Why is that?


Because you just want me to agree with your perspective, without even a consideration of my own.


You keep beating around the bush without ever getting to the point. Do you have a point to make or not?

For instance, you promoted Kremlin propaganda uncritically in the past and now you're pushing the idea that Putin was provoked into launching an invasion because of NATO.

I'm not making you say any of that. You posted it, not me. I'm not putting words in your mouth.

Again, what is your point?

Do you want to tell us that Putin is not the sole responsible party for invading Ukraine or not?


No one is disagreeing that Putin invaded Ukraine. Nor that people there are being tragically affected because of it.
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Re: OT: Russia-Ukraine War 

Post#1888 » by Clyde_Style » Thu Dec 8, 2022 2:48 am

Zenzibar wrote:
Clyde_Style wrote:
Zenzibar wrote:
Because you just want me to agree with your perspective, without even a consideration of my own.


You keep beating around the bush without ever getting to the point. Do you have a point to make or not?

For instance, you promoted Kremlin propaganda uncritically in the past and now you're pushing the idea that Putin was provoked into launching an invasion because of NATO.

I'm not making you say any of that. You posted it, not me. I'm not putting words in your mouth.

Again, what is your point?

Do you want to tell us that Putin is not the sole responsible party for invading Ukraine or not?


No one is disagreeing that Putin invaded Ukraine. Nor that people there are being tragically affected because of it.


OK, that's a start. Was there any specific point you want to make?

Asking because I still don't know what you wish to communicate. This is not a provocation.
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Re: OT: Russia-Ukraine War 

Post#1889 » by Zenzibar » Thu Dec 8, 2022 2:58 am

Are We Ther Yet wrote:
Zenzibar wrote:
Are We Ther Yet wrote:
Thanksgiving was made a national holiday after the civil war. There are stories about the massacre being called a Thanksgiving. Which was a term used a LOT by the British way back when. Lincoln wanted the country to unite after the war and declared the holiday that we now celebrate. There were multiple versions prior to that. It wasn't about celebrating a massacre as some suggest.

You are correct that our history has been distorted though. Things completely left out etc etc. All history is distortion of facts at some point or another. The bible has its issues as well.


https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/thanksgiving-myth-and-what-we-should-be-teaching-kids-180973655/

The Myths of the Thanksgiving Story and the Lasting Damage They Imbue

In truth, massacres, disease and American Indian tribal politics are what shaped the Pilgrim-Indian alliance at the root of the holiday


In Thanksgiving pageants held at schools across the United States, children don headdresses colored with craft-store feathers and share tables with classmates wearing black construction paper hats. It’s a tradition that pulls on a history passed down through the generations of what happened in Plymouth: local Native Americans welcomed the courageous, pioneering pilgrims to a celebratory feast.

But, as David Silverman writes in his new book This Land Is Their Land: The Wampanoag Indians, Plymouth Colony, and the Troubled History of Thanksgiving, much of that story is a myth riddled with historical inaccuracies. Beyond that, Silverman argues that the telling and retelling of these falsehoods is deeply harmful to the Wampanoag Indians whose lives and society were forever damaged after the English arrived in Plymouth.

(It goes on the say)

What is the Thanksgiving myth?

The myth is that friendly Indians, unidentified by tribe, welcome the Pilgrims to America, teach them how to live in this new place, sit down to dinner with them and then disappear. They hand off America to white people so they can create a great nation dedicated to liberty, opportunity and Christianity for the rest of the world to profit. That’s the story—it’s about Native people conceding to colonialism. It’s bloodless and in many ways an extension of the ideology of Manifest Destiny.

What are the most poignant inaccuracies in this story?

One is that history doesn’t begin for Native people until Europeans arrive. People had been in the Americas for least 12,000 years and according to some Native traditions, since the beginning of time. And having history start with the English is a way of dismissing all that. The second is that the arrival of the Mayflower is some kind of first-contact episode. It’s not. Wampanoags had a century of contact with Europeans–it was bloody and it involved slave raiding by Europeans. At least two and maybe more Wampanoags, when the Pilgrims arrived, spoke English, had already been to Europe and back and knew the very organizers of the Pilgrims’ venture.


This is BS. The wampanoags massacre was a trade war between the English and the Dutch. It is not about Thanksgiving as we know it. The first Thanksgiving was in Virginia. In 1610. It wasn't about a meal with native Americans either. It was about a successful journey across the ocean. It included fasting. It happened on Dec 4th.

There are many different versions of Thanksgiving and this BS that we celebrate a massacre is just that. It was never a national holiday until after the civil war. It was about uniting the nation, not celebrating massacre. The story of Pilgrims and indians sharing a harvest may be BS but, that's as far as the story goes. It's not about massacre.

This is a version of distortion of history that you talk about.

The continent was conquered by several foreign nations. That was the way of the world. The Native Americans were butchered by more powerful enemies. That's also the way of the world and, most nations have a hand in such acts. Pretty much all of them have done these things at one point or another.

Palestine is happening right now.


The post above is from the Smithsonian website and this one is from Time.com. I guess they're both talking "BS". Don't be afraid to go all-in on your research my guy, it's out there.

https://time.com/5457183/thanksgiving-native-american-holiday/


IDEASTHE THANKSGIVING TALE WE TELL IS A HARMFUL LIE. AS A NATIVE AMERICAN, I’VE FOUND A BETTER WAY TO CELEBRATE THE HOLIDAY
The Thanksgiving Tale We Tell Is a Harmful Lie. As a Native American, I’ve Found a Better Way to Celebrate the Holiday
Various ingredients foraged from prairie land around Coteau des Prairies Lodge near Havana, N.D., July 19, 2016. (Dan Koeck—The New York Times/Redux)
Various ingredients foraged from prairie land around Coteau des Prairies Lodge near Havana, N.D., July 19, 2016. Dan Koeck—The New York Times/Redux

IDEAS
BY SEAN SHERMAN UPDATED: NOVEMBER 11, 2019 1:07 PM EST | ORIGINALLY PUBLISHED: NOVEMBER 19, 2018 7:30 AM EST
Sherman is the founder and CEO of The Sioux Chef and the author of The Sioux Chef’s Indigenous Kitchen, which won the 2018 James Beard Award for best American cookbook.
Every November, I get asked an unfortunate, loaded question: “You’re a Native American—what do you eat on Thanksgiving?” My answer spans my lifetime
.

I was born and raised on the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation in South Dakota in the 1970s and am a member of the Oglala Lakota Sioux Tribe. Growing up, I went to a very small country school on the reservation, in the poorest county in the United States. Our school had predominantly Native students, but we were still taught what everybody was about Thanksgiving: It represented a time when “pilgrims and Indians” celebrated together, and it was about being thankful. Only later would we find out that it was a lie.


But as I was taught this story, my family gathered on Thanksgiving at my grandparent’s ranch, where we held a huge feast of very typical recipes, most of them straight out of a circa-‘60s Betty Crocker cookbook. I remember the mingling smells of dishes cooking throughout the day as our moms and aunts crowded every kitchen surface preparing for the large offering. We had the staples, like roasted turkey; mashed potatoes and milk gravy; sweet potatoes with marshmallows; green bean casserole with onion crisps; brand-name stuffing; canned cranberry sauce; an assortment of cold pasta salads, Jello molds, cookies, deviled eggs; and 1950s-style glass platters filled with canned California black olives, pickles and piles of veggies. On occasion, we had Lakota dishes like Taniga (intestine soup) and wojape (chokecherry sauce).

Those are good memories. Though once my grandparents passed away, my family never celebrated holidays like that again, gathered in one place on the reservation. In the years since, my perspective on Thanksgiving has changed—at first from a sense of bitterness surrounding the real history of those lies we tell, of the actual stories we should honor and mourn, and then with a renewed hope for what our celebrations could be, if we simply changed our focus.


It was the Wampanoag in 1621 who helped the first wave of Puritans arriving on our shores, showing them how to plant crops, forage for wild foods and basically survive. The first official mention of a “Thanksgiving” celebration occurs in 1637, after the colonists brutally massacre an entire Pequot village, then subsequently celebrate their barbaric victory. Years later, President Washington first tried to start a holiday of Thanksgiving in 1789, but this has nothing to do with “Indians and settlers, instead it’s intended to be a public day of “thanksgiving and prayer.” (That the phrase “Merciliess Savage Indians” is written into the Declaration of Independence says everything we need to know about how the founders of America viewed the Indigenous Peoples of this land.) It wasn’t until the writer Sarah Josepha Hale persuaded President Lincoln that the Thanksgiving holiday was needed and could help heal the divided nation that it was made official in 1863. But even that was not the story we are all taught today. The inspiration for that was far more exclusionist.

According to the 2009 book, Thanksgiving: The Biography of an American Holiday by James Baker, who was a researcher at Plimoth Plantation, this changed during the Progressive Era (1890–1920), when the United States became a global power rife with industrialization and urbanization. It saw a rise in nationalism, as European immigrants poured into the country, and the Protestant Americans who’d massacred indigenous people feared being displaced. Colonial ideology became the identity of what it was to be truly “American,” and they began implementing teachings to clearly define “Americanism” for the new immigrants. One of these was the sanitized story of Thanksgiving — which fabricated a peaceful depiction between the colonizers and the tribes and neglected to mention the amount of death, destruction and land-grabbing that occurs against the first peoples, setting the tone for the next 200 years. By 1920, writes Baker, the story of “pilgrims and Indians” became a story every American school child was taught, even in Native schools.


But our families lived something different. My great grandfather helped fight off General Custer at the Battle of Little Bighorn, alongside other Lakota and Cheyenne, not even 100 years before my birth. I think about my great grandfather’s lifetime, being born in the 1850s—toward the end of the genocides that began in the 1600s across America, and stretching into the subtler but still damaging years of assimilation efforts we have endured since. He saw escalating conflicts between Lakota life as he knew it and the ever-emerging immigrants from the east. He witnessed the disappearance of the bison, the loss of the sacred Black Hills, the many broken promises made by the U.S., along with atrocities like the Sand Creek and Wounded Knee Massacres. He saw his children attend the boarding schools where they had their hair forcibly cut and were punished for speaking their languages. I wonder what he thought about the Thanksgiving story.

But I do not wonder about this: Thanksgiving really has nothing to do with Native Americans, and everything to do with an old (but not the oldest) guard conjuring a lie of the first peoples welcoming the settlers to bolster their false authority over what makes a “real” American. (Remember, only in 1924 were Native Americans allowed to become citizens of the United States — and it took decades more for all states to permit us to vote.) It is a story of supposed unity, drained of the bloodshed, and built for the sake of division.


Many of my indigenous brothers and sisters refuse to celebrate Thanksgiving, protesting the whitewashing of the horrors our ancestors went through, and I don’t blame them. But I have not abandoned the holiday. I have just changed how I practice it.

The thing is, we do not need the poisonous “pilgrims and Indians” narrative. We do not need that illusion of past unity to actually unite people today. Instead, we can focus simply on values that apply to everybody: togetherness, generosity and gratitude. And we can make the day about what everybody wants to talk and think about anyway: the food.

People may not realize it, but what every person in this country shares, and the very history of this nation, has been in front of us the whole time. Most of our Thanksgiving recipes are made with indigenous foods: turkey, corn, beans, pumpkins, maple, wild rice and the like. We should embrace this.

For years, especially as the head of a company that focuses on indigenous foods, I have explored Native foods. It has given me—and can give all of us—a deeper understanding of the land we stand on. It’s exciting to reconnect with the nature around us. We Americans spend hours outdoors collecting foods like chanterelles, morels, ramps, wild ginger, chokecherries, wild plums, crab apples, cactus fruit, paw paws, manzanita berries, cattails, maple, wild rice (not the black stuff from California, which is a modified and completely different version of the true wild rice growing around the Great Lakes region), cedar, rose-hips, hickory, acorns and walnuts. We can work with Native growers producing heirloom beans, squash and pumpkins, and Native corn varieties, all coming in many shapes, sizes and colors. We can have our feasts include dishes like cedar-braised rabbit, sunchokes with sumac, pine-stewed venison, smoked turkey with chestnuts, true wild rice with foraged mushrooms, native squash with maple, smoked salmon and wild teas.


No matter where you are in North America, you are on indigenous land. And so on this holiday, and any day really, I urge people to explore a deeper connection to what are called “American” foods by understanding true Native-American histories, and begin using what grows naturally around us, and to support Native-American growers. There is no need to make Thanksgiving about a false past. It is so much better when it celebrates the beauty of the present.
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Re: OT: Russia-Ukraine War 

Post#1890 » by Zenzibar » Thu Dec 8, 2022 3:05 am

Clyde_Style wrote:
Zenzibar wrote:
Clyde_Style wrote:
You keep beating around the bush without ever getting to the point. Do you have a point to make or not?

For instance, you promoted Kremlin propaganda uncritically in the past and now you're pushing the idea that Putin was provoked into launching an invasion because of NATO.

I'm not making you say any of that. You posted it, not me. I'm not putting words in your mouth.

Again, what is your point?

Do you want to tell us that Putin is not the sole responsible party for invading Ukraine or not?


No one is disagreeing that Putin invaded Ukraine. Nor that people there are being tragically affected because of it.


OK, that's a start. Was there any specific point you want to make?

Asking because I still don't know what you wish to communicate. This is not a provocation.


"Ok, that's a start"? Let's leave i there for now.
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Re: OT: Russia-Ukraine War 

Post#1891 » by Clyde_Style » Thu Dec 8, 2022 3:16 am

Zenzibar wrote:
Clyde_Style wrote:
Zenzibar wrote:
No one is disagreeing that Putin invaded Ukraine. Nor that people there are being tragically affected because of it.


OK, that's a start. Was there any specific point you want to make?

Asking because I still don't know what you wish to communicate. This is not a provocation.


"Ok, that's a start"?


It's a start towards actually understanding what your point is.

Whether you have a point to make or not is still unclear.

I just gave you a blank check to say something concrete and once again you deflect by acting butthurt.

I asked you what your point is. Stop trying to make it into a personal attack.
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Re: OT: Russia-Ukraine War 

Post#1892 » by Jalen Bluntson » Thu Dec 8, 2022 3:17 am

Zenzibar wrote:
Are We Ther Yet wrote:
Zenzibar wrote:
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/thanksgiving-myth-and-what-we-should-be-teaching-kids-180973655/

The Myths of the Thanksgiving Story and the Lasting Damage They Imbue

In truth, massacres, disease and American Indian tribal politics are what shaped the Pilgrim-Indian alliance at the root of the holiday


In Thanksgiving pageants held at schools across the United States, children don headdresses colored with craft-store feathers and share tables with classmates wearing black construction paper hats. It’s a tradition that pulls on a history passed down through the generations of what happened in Plymouth: local Native Americans welcomed the courageous, pioneering pilgrims to a celebratory feast.

But, as David Silverman writes in his new book This Land Is Their Land: The Wampanoag Indians, Plymouth Colony, and the Troubled History of Thanksgiving, much of that story is a myth riddled with historical inaccuracies. Beyond that, Silverman argues that the telling and retelling of these falsehoods is deeply harmful to the Wampanoag Indians whose lives and society were forever damaged after the English arrived in Plymouth.

(It goes on the say)

What is the Thanksgiving myth?

The myth is that friendly Indians, unidentified by tribe, welcome the Pilgrims to America, teach them how to live in this new place, sit down to dinner with them and then disappear. They hand off America to white people so they can create a great nation dedicated to liberty, opportunity and Christianity for the rest of the world to profit. That’s the story—it’s about Native people conceding to colonialism. It’s bloodless and in many ways an extension of the ideology of Manifest Destiny.

What are the most poignant inaccuracies in this story?

One is that history doesn’t begin for Native people until Europeans arrive. People had been in the Americas for least 12,000 years and according to some Native traditions, since the beginning of time. And having history start with the English is a way of dismissing all that. The second is that the arrival of the Mayflower is some kind of first-contact episode. It’s not. Wampanoags had a century of contact with Europeans–it was bloody and it involved slave raiding by Europeans. At least two and maybe more Wampanoags, when the Pilgrims arrived, spoke English, had already been to Europe and back and knew the very organizers of the Pilgrims’ venture.


This is BS. The wampanoags massacre was a trade war between the English and the Dutch. It is not about Thanksgiving as we know it. The first Thanksgiving was in Virginia. In 1610. It wasn't about a meal with native Americans either. It was about a successful journey across the ocean. It included fasting. It happened on Dec 4th.

There are many different versions of Thanksgiving and this BS that we celebrate a massacre is just that. It was never a national holiday until after the civil war. It was about uniting the nation, not celebrating massacre. The story of Pilgrims and indians sharing a harvest may be BS but, that's as far as the story goes. It's not about massacre.

This is a version of distortion of history that you talk about.

The continent was conquered by several foreign nations. That was the way of the world. The Native Americans were butchered by more powerful enemies. That's also the way of the world and, most nations have a hand in such acts. Pretty much all of them have done these things at one point or another.

Palestine is happening right now.


The post above is from the Smithsonian website and this one is from Time.com. I guess they're both talking "BS". Don't be afraid to go all-in on your research my guy, it's out there.

https://time.com/5457183/thanksgiving-native-american-holiday/


IDEASTHE THANKSGIVING TALE WE TELL IS A HARMFUL LIE. AS A NATIVE AMERICAN, I’VE FOUND A BETTER WAY TO CELEBRATE THE HOLIDAY
The Thanksgiving Tale We Tell Is a Harmful Lie. As a Native American, I’ve Found a Better Way to Celebrate the Holiday
Various ingredients foraged from prairie land around Coteau des Prairies Lodge near Havana, N.D., July 19, 2016. (Dan Koeck—The New York Times/Redux)
Various ingredients foraged from prairie land around Coteau des Prairies Lodge near Havana, N.D., July 19, 2016. Dan Koeck—The New York Times/Redux

IDEAS
BY SEAN SHERMAN UPDATED: NOVEMBER 11, 2019 1:07 PM EST | ORIGINALLY PUBLISHED: NOVEMBER 19, 2018 7:30 AM EST
Sherman is the founder and CEO of The Sioux Chef and the author of The Sioux Chef’s Indigenous Kitchen, which won the 2018 James Beard Award for best American cookbook.
Every November, I get asked an unfortunate, loaded question: “You’re a Native American—what do you eat on Thanksgiving?” My answer spans my lifetime
.

I was born and raised on the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation in South Dakota in the 1970s and am a member of the Oglala Lakota Sioux Tribe. Growing up, I went to a very small country school on the reservation, in the poorest county in the United States. Our school had predominantly Native students, but we were still taught what everybody was about Thanksgiving: It represented a time when “pilgrims and Indians” celebrated together, and it was about being thankful. Only later would we find out that it was a lie.


But as I was taught this story, my family gathered on Thanksgiving at my grandparent’s ranch, where we held a huge feast of very typical recipes, most of them straight out of a circa-‘60s Betty Crocker cookbook. I remember the mingling smells of dishes cooking throughout the day as our moms and aunts crowded every kitchen surface preparing for the large offering. We had the staples, like roasted turkey; mashed potatoes and milk gravy; sweet potatoes with marshmallows; green bean casserole with onion crisps; brand-name stuffing; canned cranberry sauce; an assortment of cold pasta salads, Jello molds, cookies, deviled eggs; and 1950s-style glass platters filled with canned California black olives, pickles and piles of veggies. On occasion, we had Lakota dishes like Taniga (intestine soup) and wojape (chokecherry sauce).

Those are good memories. Though once my grandparents passed away, my family never celebrated holidays like that again, gathered in one place on the reservation. In the years since, my perspective on Thanksgiving has changed—at first from a sense of bitterness surrounding the real history of those lies we tell, of the actual stories we should honor and mourn, and then with a renewed hope for what our celebrations could be, if we simply changed our focus.


It was the Wampanoag in 1621 who helped the first wave of Puritans arriving on our shores, showing them how to plant crops, forage for wild foods and basically survive. The first official mention of a “Thanksgiving” celebration occurs in 1637, after the colonists brutally massacre an entire Pequot village, then subsequently celebrate their barbaric victory. Years later, President Washington first tried to start a holiday of Thanksgiving in 1789, but this has nothing to do with “Indians and settlers, instead it’s intended to be a public day of “thanksgiving and prayer.” (That the phrase “Merciliess Savage Indians” is written into the Declaration of Independence says everything we need to know about how the founders of America viewed the Indigenous Peoples of this land.) It wasn’t until the writer Sarah Josepha Hale persuaded President Lincoln that the Thanksgiving holiday was needed and could help heal the divided nation that it was made official in 1863. But even that was not the story we are all taught today. The inspiration for that was far more exclusionist.

According to the 2009 book, Thanksgiving: The Biography of an American Holiday by James Baker, who was a researcher at Plimoth Plantation, this changed during the Progressive Era (1890–1920), when the United States became a global power rife with industrialization and urbanization. It saw a rise in nationalism, as European immigrants poured into the country, and the Protestant Americans who’d massacred indigenous people feared being displaced. Colonial ideology became the identity of what it was to be truly “American,” and they began implementing teachings to clearly define “Americanism” for the new immigrants. One of these was the sanitized story of Thanksgiving — which fabricated a peaceful depiction between the colonizers and the tribes and neglected to mention the amount of death, destruction and land-grabbing that occurs against the first peoples, setting the tone for the next 200 years. By 1920, writes Baker, the story of “pilgrims and Indians” became a story every American school child was taught, even in Native schools.


But our families lived something different. My great grandfather helped fight off General Custer at the Battle of Little Bighorn, alongside other Lakota and Cheyenne, not even 100 years before my birth. I think about my great grandfather’s lifetime, being born in the 1850s—toward the end of the genocides that began in the 1600s across America, and stretching into the subtler but still damaging years of assimilation efforts we have endured since. He saw escalating conflicts between Lakota life as he knew it and the ever-emerging immigrants from the east. He witnessed the disappearance of the bison, the loss of the sacred Black Hills, the many broken promises made by the U.S., along with atrocities like the Sand Creek and Wounded Knee Massacres. He saw his children attend the boarding schools where they had their hair forcibly cut and were punished for speaking their languages. I wonder what he thought about the Thanksgiving story.

But I do not wonder about this: Thanksgiving really has nothing to do with Native Americans, and everything to do with an old (but not the oldest) guard conjuring a lie of the first peoples welcoming the settlers to bolster their false authority over what makes a “real” American. (Remember, only in 1924 were Native Americans allowed to become citizens of the United States — and it took decades more for all states to permit us to vote.) It is a story of supposed unity, drained of the bloodshed, and built for the sake of division.


Many of my indigenous brothers and sisters refuse to celebrate Thanksgiving, protesting the whitewashing of the horrors our ancestors went through, and I don’t blame them. But I have not abandoned the holiday. I have just changed how I practice it.

The thing is, we do not need the poisonous “pilgrims and Indians” narrative. We do not need that illusion of past unity to actually unite people today. Instead, we can focus simply on values that apply to everybody: togetherness, generosity and gratitude. And we can make the day about what everybody wants to talk and think about anyway: the food.

People may not realize it, but what every person in this country shares, and the very history of this nation, has been in front of us the whole time. Most of our Thanksgiving recipes are made with indigenous foods: turkey, corn, beans, pumpkins, maple, wild rice and the like. We should embrace this.

For years, especially as the head of a company that focuses on indigenous foods, I have explored Native foods. It has given me—and can give all of us—a deeper understanding of the land we stand on. It’s exciting to reconnect with the nature around us. We Americans spend hours outdoors collecting foods like chanterelles, morels, ramps, wild ginger, chokecherries, wild plums, crab apples, cactus fruit, paw paws, manzanita berries, cattails, maple, wild rice (not the black stuff from California, which is a modified and completely different version of the true wild rice growing around the Great Lakes region), cedar, rose-hips, hickory, acorns and walnuts. We can work with Native growers producing heirloom beans, squash and pumpkins, and Native corn varieties, all coming in many shapes, sizes and colors. We can have our feasts include dishes like cedar-braised rabbit, sunchokes with sumac, pine-stewed venison, smoked turkey with chestnuts, true wild rice with foraged mushrooms, native squash with maple, smoked salmon and wild teas.


No matter where you are in North America, you are on indigenous land. And so on this holiday, and any day really, I urge people to explore a deeper connection to what are called “American” foods by understanding true Native-American histories, and begin using what grows naturally around us, and to support Native-American growers. There is no need to make Thanksgiving about a false past. It is so much better when it celebrates the beauty of the present.


You keep conflating things like these cancel culture articles are. The holiday that we celebrate today is NOT ABOUT A MASSACRE! Were there massacres? Surely. This is not why the holiday is celebrated today at all though. The peaceful tale about Natives and Pilgrims may be bull(it has happened on some levels actually) but, the national holiday is absolutely NOT about celebrating massacre. This is a simple fact.

Also...we are not on indigenous lands. They lost it all. That's the way of the world. Was it brutal and disgusting what happened starting 400+ years ago? Absolutely. What's done is done though. Had they been able to hold their lands none of us would be here.

Thanksgiving is not about celebrating a massacre though. It was made a national holiday to try to help unite the country after the civil war. Period.
:beer: RIP mags
Clyde_Style
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Posts: 71,855
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Joined: Jul 12, 2009

Re: OT: Russia-Ukraine War 

Post#1893 » by Clyde_Style » Thu Dec 8, 2022 3:21 am

Are We Ther Yet wrote:
Zenzibar wrote:
Are We Ther Yet wrote:
This is BS. The wampanoags massacre was a trade war between the English and the Dutch. It is not about Thanksgiving as we know it. The first Thanksgiving was in Virginia. In 1610. It wasn't about a meal with native Americans either. It was about a successful journey across the ocean. It included fasting. It happened on Dec 4th.

There are many different versions of Thanksgiving and this BS that we celebrate a massacre is just that. It was never a national holiday until after the civil war. It was about uniting the nation, not celebrating massacre. The story of Pilgrims and indians sharing a harvest may be BS but, that's as far as the story goes. It's not about massacre.

This is a version of distortion of history that you talk about.

The continent was conquered by several foreign nations. That was the way of the world. The Native Americans were butchered by more powerful enemies. That's also the way of the world and, most nations have a hand in such acts. Pretty much all of them have done these things at one point or another.

Palestine is happening right now.


The post above is from the Smithsonian website and this one is from Time.com. I guess they're both talking "BS". Don't be afraid to go all-in on your research my guy, it's out there.

https://time.com/5457183/thanksgiving-native-american-holiday/


IDEASTHE THANKSGIVING TALE WE TELL IS A HARMFUL LIE. AS A NATIVE AMERICAN, I’VE FOUND A BETTER WAY TO CELEBRATE THE HOLIDAY
The Thanksgiving Tale We Tell Is a Harmful Lie. As a Native American, I’ve Found a Better Way to Celebrate the Holiday
Various ingredients foraged from prairie land around Coteau des Prairies Lodge near Havana, N.D., July 19, 2016. (Dan Koeck—The New York Times/Redux)
Various ingredients foraged from prairie land around Coteau des Prairies Lodge near Havana, N.D., July 19, 2016. Dan Koeck—The New York Times/Redux

IDEAS
BY SEAN SHERMAN UPDATED: NOVEMBER 11, 2019 1:07 PM EST | ORIGINALLY PUBLISHED: NOVEMBER 19, 2018 7:30 AM EST
Sherman is the founder and CEO of The Sioux Chef and the author of The Sioux Chef’s Indigenous Kitchen, which won the 2018 James Beard Award for best American cookbook.
Every November, I get asked an unfortunate, loaded question: “You’re a Native American—what do you eat on Thanksgiving?” My answer spans my lifetime
.

I was born and raised on the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation in South Dakota in the 1970s and am a member of the Oglala Lakota Sioux Tribe. Growing up, I went to a very small country school on the reservation, in the poorest county in the United States. Our school had predominantly Native students, but we were still taught what everybody was about Thanksgiving: It represented a time when “pilgrims and Indians” celebrated together, and it was about being thankful. Only later would we find out that it was a lie.


But as I was taught this story, my family gathered on Thanksgiving at my grandparent’s ranch, where we held a huge feast of very typical recipes, most of them straight out of a circa-‘60s Betty Crocker cookbook. I remember the mingling smells of dishes cooking throughout the day as our moms and aunts crowded every kitchen surface preparing for the large offering. We had the staples, like roasted turkey; mashed potatoes and milk gravy; sweet potatoes with marshmallows; green bean casserole with onion crisps; brand-name stuffing; canned cranberry sauce; an assortment of cold pasta salads, Jello molds, cookies, deviled eggs; and 1950s-style glass platters filled with canned California black olives, pickles and piles of veggies. On occasion, we had Lakota dishes like Taniga (intestine soup) and wojape (chokecherry sauce).

Those are good memories. Though once my grandparents passed away, my family never celebrated holidays like that again, gathered in one place on the reservation. In the years since, my perspective on Thanksgiving has changed—at first from a sense of bitterness surrounding the real history of those lies we tell, of the actual stories we should honor and mourn, and then with a renewed hope for what our celebrations could be, if we simply changed our focus.


It was the Wampanoag in 1621 who helped the first wave of Puritans arriving on our shores, showing them how to plant crops, forage for wild foods and basically survive. The first official mention of a “Thanksgiving” celebration occurs in 1637, after the colonists brutally massacre an entire Pequot village, then subsequently celebrate their barbaric victory. Years later, President Washington first tried to start a holiday of Thanksgiving in 1789, but this has nothing to do with “Indians and settlers, instead it’s intended to be a public day of “thanksgiving and prayer.” (That the phrase “Merciliess Savage Indians” is written into the Declaration of Independence says everything we need to know about how the founders of America viewed the Indigenous Peoples of this land.) It wasn’t until the writer Sarah Josepha Hale persuaded President Lincoln that the Thanksgiving holiday was needed and could help heal the divided nation that it was made official in 1863. But even that was not the story we are all taught today. The inspiration for that was far more exclusionist.

According to the 2009 book, Thanksgiving: The Biography of an American Holiday by James Baker, who was a researcher at Plimoth Plantation, this changed during the Progressive Era (1890–1920), when the United States became a global power rife with industrialization and urbanization. It saw a rise in nationalism, as European immigrants poured into the country, and the Protestant Americans who’d massacred indigenous people feared being displaced. Colonial ideology became the identity of what it was to be truly “American,” and they began implementing teachings to clearly define “Americanism” for the new immigrants. One of these was the sanitized story of Thanksgiving — which fabricated a peaceful depiction between the colonizers and the tribes and neglected to mention the amount of death, destruction and land-grabbing that occurs against the first peoples, setting the tone for the next 200 years. By 1920, writes Baker, the story of “pilgrims and Indians” became a story every American school child was taught, even in Native schools.


But our families lived something different. My great grandfather helped fight off General Custer at the Battle of Little Bighorn, alongside other Lakota and Cheyenne, not even 100 years before my birth. I think about my great grandfather’s lifetime, being born in the 1850s—toward the end of the genocides that began in the 1600s across America, and stretching into the subtler but still damaging years of assimilation efforts we have endured since. He saw escalating conflicts between Lakota life as he knew it and the ever-emerging immigrants from the east. He witnessed the disappearance of the bison, the loss of the sacred Black Hills, the many broken promises made by the U.S., along with atrocities like the Sand Creek and Wounded Knee Massacres. He saw his children attend the boarding schools where they had their hair forcibly cut and were punished for speaking their languages. I wonder what he thought about the Thanksgiving story.

But I do not wonder about this: Thanksgiving really has nothing to do with Native Americans, and everything to do with an old (but not the oldest) guard conjuring a lie of the first peoples welcoming the settlers to bolster their false authority over what makes a “real” American. (Remember, only in 1924 were Native Americans allowed to become citizens of the United States — and it took decades more for all states to permit us to vote.) It is a story of supposed unity, drained of the bloodshed, and built for the sake of division.


Many of my indigenous brothers and sisters refuse to celebrate Thanksgiving, protesting the whitewashing of the horrors our ancestors went through, and I don’t blame them. But I have not abandoned the holiday. I have just changed how I practice it.

The thing is, we do not need the poisonous “pilgrims and Indians” narrative. We do not need that illusion of past unity to actually unite people today. Instead, we can focus simply on values that apply to everybody: togetherness, generosity and gratitude. And we can make the day about what everybody wants to talk and think about anyway: the food.

People may not realize it, but what every person in this country shares, and the very history of this nation, has been in front of us the whole time. Most of our Thanksgiving recipes are made with indigenous foods: turkey, corn, beans, pumpkins, maple, wild rice and the like. We should embrace this.

For years, especially as the head of a company that focuses on indigenous foods, I have explored Native foods. It has given me—and can give all of us—a deeper understanding of the land we stand on. It’s exciting to reconnect with the nature around us. We Americans spend hours outdoors collecting foods like chanterelles, morels, ramps, wild ginger, chokecherries, wild plums, crab apples, cactus fruit, paw paws, manzanita berries, cattails, maple, wild rice (not the black stuff from California, which is a modified and completely different version of the true wild rice growing around the Great Lakes region), cedar, rose-hips, hickory, acorns and walnuts. We can work with Native growers producing heirloom beans, squash and pumpkins, and Native corn varieties, all coming in many shapes, sizes and colors. We can have our feasts include dishes like cedar-braised rabbit, sunchokes with sumac, pine-stewed venison, smoked turkey with chestnuts, true wild rice with foraged mushrooms, native squash with maple, smoked salmon and wild teas.


No matter where you are in North America, you are on indigenous land. And so on this holiday, and any day really, I urge people to explore a deeper connection to what are called “American” foods by understanding true Native-American histories, and begin using what grows naturally around us, and to support Native-American growers. There is no need to make Thanksgiving about a false past. It is so much better when it celebrates the beauty of the present.


You keep conflating things like these cancel culture articles are. The holiday that we celebrate today is NOT ABOUT A MASSACRE! Were there massacres? Surely. This is not why the holiday is celebrated today at all though. The peaceful tale about Natives and Pilgrims may be bull(it has happened on some levels actually) but, the national holiday is absolutely NOT about celebrating massacre. This is a simple fact.

Also...we are not on indigenous lands. They lost it all. That's the way of the world. Was it brutal and disgusting what happened starting 400+ years ago? Absolutely. What's done is done though. Had they been able to hold their lands none of us would be here.

Thanksgiving is not about celebrating a massacre though. It was made a national holiday to try to help unite the country after the civil war. Period.


Does anyone know why this is being brought up in this thread in the first place?

Is Zenzibar using this as a platform to broadcast their hatred of colonialism, first world genocide and the white man's inhumanity against other races or do they actually have a point to make about the war in the Ukraine?

He acts offended over any direct request for some clarity so perhaps you have some idea what they are trying to say, because they don't seem capable of making a point themselves.
User avatar
Jalen Bluntson
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Re: OT: Russia-Ukraine War 

Post#1894 » by Jalen Bluntson » Thu Dec 8, 2022 3:43 am

Clyde_Style wrote:
Are We Ther Yet wrote:
Zenzibar wrote:
The post above is from the Smithsonian website and this one is from Time.com. I guess they're both talking "BS". Don't be afraid to go all-in on your research my guy, it's out there.

https://time.com/5457183/thanksgiving-native-american-holiday/


IDEASTHE THANKSGIVING TALE WE TELL IS A HARMFUL LIE. AS A NATIVE AMERICAN, I’VE FOUND A BETTER WAY TO CELEBRATE THE HOLIDAY
The Thanksgiving Tale We Tell Is a Harmful Lie. As a Native American, I’ve Found a Better Way to Celebrate the Holiday
Various ingredients foraged from prairie land around Coteau des Prairies Lodge near Havana, N.D., July 19, 2016. (Dan Koeck—The New York Times/Redux)
Various ingredients foraged from prairie land around Coteau des Prairies Lodge near Havana, N.D., July 19, 2016. Dan Koeck—The New York Times/Redux

IDEAS
BY SEAN SHERMAN UPDATED: NOVEMBER 11, 2019 1:07 PM EST | ORIGINALLY PUBLISHED: NOVEMBER 19, 2018 7:30 AM EST
Sherman is the founder and CEO of The Sioux Chef and the author of The Sioux Chef’s Indigenous Kitchen, which won the 2018 James Beard Award for best American cookbook.
Every November, I get asked an unfortunate, loaded question: “You’re a Native American—what do you eat on Thanksgiving?” My answer spans my lifetime
.

I was born and raised on the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation in South Dakota in the 1970s and am a member of the Oglala Lakota Sioux Tribe. Growing up, I went to a very small country school on the reservation, in the poorest county in the United States. Our school had predominantly Native students, but we were still taught what everybody was about Thanksgiving: It represented a time when “pilgrims and Indians” celebrated together, and it was about being thankful. Only later would we find out that it was a lie.


But as I was taught this story, my family gathered on Thanksgiving at my grandparent’s ranch, where we held a huge feast of very typical recipes, most of them straight out of a circa-‘60s Betty Crocker cookbook. I remember the mingling smells of dishes cooking throughout the day as our moms and aunts crowded every kitchen surface preparing for the large offering. We had the staples, like roasted turkey; mashed potatoes and milk gravy; sweet potatoes with marshmallows; green bean casserole with onion crisps; brand-name stuffing; canned cranberry sauce; an assortment of cold pasta salads, Jello molds, cookies, deviled eggs; and 1950s-style glass platters filled with canned California black olives, pickles and piles of veggies. On occasion, we had Lakota dishes like Taniga (intestine soup) and wojape (chokecherry sauce).

Those are good memories. Though once my grandparents passed away, my family never celebrated holidays like that again, gathered in one place on the reservation. In the years since, my perspective on Thanksgiving has changed—at first from a sense of bitterness surrounding the real history of those lies we tell, of the actual stories we should honor and mourn, and then with a renewed hope for what our celebrations could be, if we simply changed our focus.


It was the Wampanoag in 1621 who helped the first wave of Puritans arriving on our shores, showing them how to plant crops, forage for wild foods and basically survive. The first official mention of a “Thanksgiving” celebration occurs in 1637, after the colonists brutally massacre an entire Pequot village, then subsequently celebrate their barbaric victory. Years later, President Washington first tried to start a holiday of Thanksgiving in 1789, but this has nothing to do with “Indians and settlers, instead it’s intended to be a public day of “thanksgiving and prayer.” (That the phrase “Merciliess Savage Indians” is written into the Declaration of Independence says everything we need to know about how the founders of America viewed the Indigenous Peoples of this land.) It wasn’t until the writer Sarah Josepha Hale persuaded President Lincoln that the Thanksgiving holiday was needed and could help heal the divided nation that it was made official in 1863. But even that was not the story we are all taught today. The inspiration for that was far more exclusionist.

According to the 2009 book, Thanksgiving: The Biography of an American Holiday by James Baker, who was a researcher at Plimoth Plantation, this changed during the Progressive Era (1890–1920), when the United States became a global power rife with industrialization and urbanization. It saw a rise in nationalism, as European immigrants poured into the country, and the Protestant Americans who’d massacred indigenous people feared being displaced. Colonial ideology became the identity of what it was to be truly “American,” and they began implementing teachings to clearly define “Americanism” for the new immigrants. One of these was the sanitized story of Thanksgiving — which fabricated a peaceful depiction between the colonizers and the tribes and neglected to mention the amount of death, destruction and land-grabbing that occurs against the first peoples, setting the tone for the next 200 years. By 1920, writes Baker, the story of “pilgrims and Indians” became a story every American school child was taught, even in Native schools.


But our families lived something different. My great grandfather helped fight off General Custer at the Battle of Little Bighorn, alongside other Lakota and Cheyenne, not even 100 years before my birth. I think about my great grandfather’s lifetime, being born in the 1850s—toward the end of the genocides that began in the 1600s across America, and stretching into the subtler but still damaging years of assimilation efforts we have endured since. He saw escalating conflicts between Lakota life as he knew it and the ever-emerging immigrants from the east. He witnessed the disappearance of the bison, the loss of the sacred Black Hills, the many broken promises made by the U.S., along with atrocities like the Sand Creek and Wounded Knee Massacres. He saw his children attend the boarding schools where they had their hair forcibly cut and were punished for speaking their languages. I wonder what he thought about the Thanksgiving story.

But I do not wonder about this: Thanksgiving really has nothing to do with Native Americans, and everything to do with an old (but not the oldest) guard conjuring a lie of the first peoples welcoming the settlers to bolster their false authority over what makes a “real” American. (Remember, only in 1924 were Native Americans allowed to become citizens of the United States — and it took decades more for all states to permit us to vote.) It is a story of supposed unity, drained of the bloodshed, and built for the sake of division.


Many of my indigenous brothers and sisters refuse to celebrate Thanksgiving, protesting the whitewashing of the horrors our ancestors went through, and I don’t blame them. But I have not abandoned the holiday. I have just changed how I practice it.

The thing is, we do not need the poisonous “pilgrims and Indians” narrative. We do not need that illusion of past unity to actually unite people today. Instead, we can focus simply on values that apply to everybody: togetherness, generosity and gratitude. And we can make the day about what everybody wants to talk and think about anyway: the food.

People may not realize it, but what every person in this country shares, and the very history of this nation, has been in front of us the whole time. Most of our Thanksgiving recipes are made with indigenous foods: turkey, corn, beans, pumpkins, maple, wild rice and the like. We should embrace this.

For years, especially as the head of a company that focuses on indigenous foods, I have explored Native foods. It has given me—and can give all of us—a deeper understanding of the land we stand on. It’s exciting to reconnect with the nature around us. We Americans spend hours outdoors collecting foods like chanterelles, morels, ramps, wild ginger, chokecherries, wild plums, crab apples, cactus fruit, paw paws, manzanita berries, cattails, maple, wild rice (not the black stuff from California, which is a modified and completely different version of the true wild rice growing around the Great Lakes region), cedar, rose-hips, hickory, acorns and walnuts. We can work with Native growers producing heirloom beans, squash and pumpkins, and Native corn varieties, all coming in many shapes, sizes and colors. We can have our feasts include dishes like cedar-braised rabbit, sunchokes with sumac, pine-stewed venison, smoked turkey with chestnuts, true wild rice with foraged mushrooms, native squash with maple, smoked salmon and wild teas.


No matter where you are in North America, you are on indigenous land. And so on this holiday, and any day really, I urge people to explore a deeper connection to what are called “American” foods by understanding true Native-American histories, and begin using what grows naturally around us, and to support Native-American growers. There is no need to make Thanksgiving about a false past. It is so much better when it celebrates the beauty of the present.


You keep conflating things like these cancel culture articles are. The holiday that we celebrate today is NOT ABOUT A MASSACRE! Were there massacres? Surely. This is not why the holiday is celebrated today at all though. The peaceful tale about Natives and Pilgrims may be bull(it has happened on some levels actually) but, the national holiday is absolutely NOT about celebrating massacre. This is a simple fact.

Also...we are not on indigenous lands. They lost it all. That's the way of the world. Was it brutal and disgusting what happened starting 400+ years ago? Absolutely. What's done is done though. Had they been able to hold their lands none of us would be here.

Thanksgiving is not about celebrating a massacre though. It was made a national holiday to try to help unite the country after the civil war. Period.


Does anyone know why this is being brought up in this thread in the first place?

Is Zenzibar using this as a platform to broadcast their hatred of colonialism, first world genocide and the white man's inhumanity against other races or do they actually have a point to make about the war in the Ukraine?

He acts offended over any direct request for some clarity so perhaps you have some idea what they are trying to say, because they don't seem capable of making a point themselves.


The conversation started over the distortion of history. Then he went on to do so with these stories about Thanksgiving. It simply isn't true. There were multiple versions of the first Thanksgiving that span years before this Wampanoags massacre happened. There's a record of an actual harvest feast with that tribe in New England that wasn't about massacre as well. That massacre though was due to a trade war between the British and the Dutch. It has nothing to do with anything. They used the term Thanksgiving to cover a LOT of different things at the time.

The first Thanksgiving in Virginia was not about native Americans at all. It happened nearly 3 decades before the massacre. None of that has to do with the creation of Thanksgiving as a national holiday though. There's also a Thanksgiving in Canada that has nothing to do with Native people as well. It started in 1578. There's a bunch of different versions of the holiday that are different due to geographic locations, religious beliefs, celebrating harvests, etc etc. The national holiday has zero to do with massacre. Period.

As for the Ukraine war. It is all about controlling resources and money and power. Not the Nazis. That's propaganda.
:beer: RIP mags
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MrDollarBills
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Re: OT: Russia-Ukraine War 

Post#1895 » by MrDollarBills » Thu Dec 8, 2022 12:39 pm

E-Balla wrote:
Clyde_Style wrote:This is not that complex guys.

It was purely Kremlin messaging used to justify their unprovoked invasion that Ukraine was

(a) harboring dozens of laboratories concocting bio-warfare weapons

(b) Ukraine was a Nazi state that Russia sought to liberate

both debunked. Repeating them now is irresponsible.


Well known Russian propaganda spreaders:

https://thehill.com/opinion/international/359609-the-reality-of-neo-nazis-in-the-ukraine-is-far-from-kremlin-propaganda/

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-cohen-ukraine-commentary/commentary-ukraines-neo-nazi-problem-idUKKBN1GV2TY

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/ukraine-turns-a-blind-eye-to-ultrarightist-militia/2017/02/12/dbf9ea3c-ecab-11e6-b4ff-ac2cf509efe5_story.html

Some of us pay attention to world politics outside of when CNN tells us to and we remember the Neo-Nazi problem was talked about well before Russia invaded. We don't have to be defending Russia's actions to say that Ukraine has a Neo-Nazi problem.

"All of Europe has a Neo-Nazi problem" isn't a defense either because y'all already know how I feel about global white supremacy and speaking against that has gotten me banned from 2 different boards (the PC Board and the Current Events board) on here because mods play favorites when it comes to speaking out against blatant white supremacists on here (shoutout to Lorak who was an Eastern European Neo Nazi that got me banned from the current events board before later getting banned for promoting Eugenics).


I've seen posters spew white supremacist ideology on this website for years with impunity and the mods of those boards always hide behind "attack the idea, not the poster", yet somehow being racist and antisemitic aren't bannable offenses. I remember seeing one dude who had a SuperSonics avatar calling for Jews to be killed in the articles section and the dude is still posting on the GB to this day.

There was definitely a lot of MAGA/white supremacist sympathizing going on from certain mods back in 2016 (not anyone here, talking about the politics forum). I'm not shocked at all you got banned for speaking out.
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Re: OT: Russia-Ukraine War 

Post#1896 » by MrDollarBills » Thu Dec 8, 2022 12:56 pm

Russian propaganda is very effective because they always mix truth in with lies.

Yes, Ukraine has neo nazis. (Truth)

No, the invasion of Ukraine is not about liberating the country from neo nazis. (Lies)

If the Russians tell you that they'll leave Ukraine on peaceful terms today, you can expect missles to rain down on Ukraine tomorrow and they'll blame Ukraine for it happening. Never believe them. They will lie about the time of day just to keep in practice.

Using disinformation, conspiracy theories and provocation to confuse their adversaries has been their playbook dating back to the Cold War.

And they work on all sides of their enemies political spectrum
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Re: OT: Russia-Ukraine War 

Post#1897 » by Clyde_Style » Thu Dec 8, 2022 1:02 pm

MrDollarBills wrote:Russian propaganda is very effective because they always mix truth in with lies.

Yes, Ukraine has neo nazis. (Truth)

No, the invasion of Ukraine is not about liberating the country from neo nazis. (Lies)

If the Russians tell you that they'll leave Ukraine on peaceful terms today, you can expect missles to rain down on Ukraine tomorrow and blame Ukraine for it happening. Never believe them. They will lie about the time of day just to keep in practice.

Using disinformation, conspiracy theories and provocation to confuse their adversaries has been their playbook dating back to the Cold War.


Yes, mix in some facts in order to tell a greater lie. It preys on the minds of indiscriminate individuals who uncritically pass on whatever social media meme feeds into their bias.

This is how the Kremlin troll factories get Americans to do their bidding.

But once your fellow Americans inform you of the ruse and your role in propagating a lie the adult response should be to own up to the mistake and not doubling down on it because you feel like you are being personally attacked.

Nobody is attacking anyone here in terms of lobbing insults. We're spitting facts and if people post lies in these threads then they need to grow a pair or move on.

It is a measure of a person's integrity to admit when they've made a mistake.

Pushing Kremlin propaganda justifications for the invasion is a mistake.

Some people seem incapable of admitting when they are wrong.
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Re: OT: Russia-Ukraine War 

Post#1898 » by Clyde_Style » Thu Dec 8, 2022 1:06 pm

MrDollarBills wrote:
E-Balla wrote:
Clyde_Style wrote:This is not that complex guys.

It was purely Kremlin messaging used to justify their unprovoked invasion that Ukraine was

(a) harboring dozens of laboratories concocting bio-warfare weapons

(b) Ukraine was a Nazi state that Russia sought to liberate

both debunked. Repeating them now is irresponsible.


Well known Russian propaganda spreaders:

https://thehill.com/opinion/international/359609-the-reality-of-neo-nazis-in-the-ukraine-is-far-from-kremlin-propaganda/

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-cohen-ukraine-commentary/commentary-ukraines-neo-nazi-problem-idUKKBN1GV2TY

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/ukraine-turns-a-blind-eye-to-ultrarightist-militia/2017/02/12/dbf9ea3c-ecab-11e6-b4ff-ac2cf509efe5_story.html

Some of us pay attention to world politics outside of when CNN tells us to and we remember the Neo-Nazi problem was talked about well before Russia invaded. We don't have to be defending Russia's actions to say that Ukraine has a Neo-Nazi problem.

"All of Europe has a Neo-Nazi problem" isn't a defense either because y'all already know how I feel about global white supremacy and speaking against that has gotten me banned from 2 different boards (the PC Board and the Current Events board) on here because mods play favorites when it comes to speaking out against blatant white supremacists on here (shoutout to Lorak who was an Eastern European Neo Nazi that got me banned from the current events board before later getting banned for promoting Eugenics).


I've seen posters spew white supremacist ideology on this website for years with impunity and the mods of those boards always hide behind "attack the idea, not the poster", yet somehow being racist and antisemitic aren't bannable offenses. I remember seeing one dude who had a SuperSonics avatar calling for Jews to be killed in the articles section and the dude is still posting on the GB to this day.

There was definitely a lot of MAGA/white supremacist sympathizing going on from certain mods back in 2016 (not anyone here, talking about the politics forum). I'm not shocked at all you got banned for speaking out.


I only briefly ventured into a couple of the wiretap threads about Kyrie and we both saw the anti-semites out in force there. Their typical tactic is to feign ignorance of what Kanye or Kyrie did that was wrong or to act like their freedom of speech was being violated. They love to play games and act clueless but they know exactly what they are doing.

What is the latest response to Kanye's visit with Alex Jones?

Are they defending him for that too?
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Re: OT: Russia-Ukraine War 

Post#1899 » by MrDollarBills » Thu Dec 8, 2022 1:18 pm

Clyde_Style wrote:
MrDollarBills wrote:
E-Balla wrote:Well known Russian propaganda spreaders:

https://thehill.com/opinion/international/359609-the-reality-of-neo-nazis-in-the-ukraine-is-far-from-kremlin-propaganda/

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-cohen-ukraine-commentary/commentary-ukraines-neo-nazi-problem-idUKKBN1GV2TY

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/ukraine-turns-a-blind-eye-to-ultrarightist-militia/2017/02/12/dbf9ea3c-ecab-11e6-b4ff-ac2cf509efe5_story.html

Some of us pay attention to world politics outside of when CNN tells us to and we remember the Neo-Nazi problem was talked about well before Russia invaded. We don't have to be defending Russia's actions to say that Ukraine has a Neo-Nazi problem.

"All of Europe has a Neo-Nazi problem" isn't a defense either because y'all already know how I feel about global white supremacy and speaking against that has gotten me banned from 2 different boards (the PC Board and the Current Events board) on here because mods play favorites when it comes to speaking out against blatant white supremacists on here (shoutout to Lorak who was an Eastern European Neo Nazi that got me banned from the current events board before later getting banned for promoting Eugenics).


I've seen posters spew white supremacist ideology on this website for years with impunity and the mods of those boards always hide behind "attack the idea, not the poster", yet somehow being racist and antisemitic aren't bannable offenses. I remember seeing one dude who had a SuperSonics avatar calling for Jews to be killed in the articles section and the dude is still posting on the GB to this day.

There was definitely a lot of MAGA/white supremacist sympathizing going on from certain mods back in 2016 (not anyone here, talking about the politics forum). I'm not shocked at all you got banned for speaking out.


I only briefly ventured into a couple of the wiretap threads about Kyrie and we both saw the anti-semites out in force there. Their typical tactic is to feign ignorance of what Kanye or Kyrie did that was wrong or to act like their freedom of speech was being violated. They love to play games and act clueless but they know exactly what they are doing.

What is the latest response to Kanye's visit with Alex Jones?

Are they defending him for that too?


I wouldn't know, I'm banned from the Current Events board :lol:

I'm glad i am too tbh. It's not worth the time or effort to shout down nazis when they're allowed free reign to spread their murderous ideology
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Re: OT: Russia-Ukraine War 

Post#1900 » by MrDollarBills » Thu Dec 8, 2022 1:31 pm

Clyde_Style wrote:
MrDollarBills wrote:Russian propaganda is very effective because they always mix truth in with lies.

Yes, Ukraine has neo nazis. (Truth)

No, the invasion of Ukraine is not about liberating the country from neo nazis. (Lies)

If the Russians tell you that they'll leave Ukraine on peaceful terms today, you can expect missles to rain down on Ukraine tomorrow and blame Ukraine for it happening. Never believe them. They will lie about the time of day just to keep in practice.

Using disinformation, conspiracy theories and provocation to confuse their adversaries has been their playbook dating back to the Cold War.


Yes, mix in some facts in order to tell a greater lie. It preys on the minds of indiscriminate individuals who uncritically pass on whatever social media meme feeds into their bias.

This is how the Kremlin troll factories get Americans to do their bidding.

.


Russian Intelligence has had their hands in a lot of cookie jars.

-MAGA

-Brexit and other EU issues in attempt to dissolve NATO, along with propping up far right movements to destabilize the West

-American Gun rights. The NRA is either a willing or unwitting asset of Russian intelligence.

-Antivax/Covid

And also this anti Ukraine sentiment being pushed on both the right and left here in the US. I could go on and on.

These guys are insidious man, they pushed antivax conspiracies on social media so effectively in an attempt to throw the USA into a health crisis that it ended up killing their own people as well and they didn't give a crap. You have to really corroborate stuff you see online.
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