2020 Presidential Election Thread: IT'S THE FINAL (vote) COUNTDOWN! [update pg 61: Joe Biden elected 46th POTUS]

[HarthorneWingo]

Trump is not going to trade state secrets for a billion dollars and use that money to buy off Tish James, but whatever, nevermind

I totally agree.

He probably already did.

[HarthorneWingo]

At this point you KD have got to wonder how a grown man acts like this

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/donald-trump-and-his-son-donald-trump-jr-without-evidence-accuse-pfizer-of-deliberately-waiting-until-after-election-day-to-release-its-covid-19-vaccine-trial-results/ar-BB1aRL3d?ocid=msedgntp

Trump has a severe narcissistic personality disorder. DSM-V

And a really weak party under his thumb.

Hey, while we have your attention, we seem to have a certificate problem. Also, the delayed loading of tweets along with all the page jumping makes my brain hurt.

[stuporman]

Most of us have violent thoughts of our own at times, but we don't advocate for it out of principle even if there some people we loathe. I would much rather see Trump suffer in prison than die anyway.

Trumpism normalized deranged people advocating for violence against their opponents.

Society needs to de-normalize this behavior. Anyone in a position to protect and serve needs to be removed upon discovery of any such online incitements to commit violence.

Trumpism definitely turned up the volume on it so it's more heard currently but this isn't a new sentiment and wasn't the first time the volume was up this high. The religious conservative right hates the left, demonizes everyone that isn't them and seeks to eradicate them from existence or at least out of 'their country'. I'm concerned this type of behavior will become a norm from them again because it isn't too far removed from a time that it had been.

Their intolerance to ideas, beliefs and diversity that isn't their own and vitriolic way they treat others is dangerous. It's not as innocuous as just some violent thoughts we may have springing from our monkey mind from time to time. Their intention to behave this way towards others is embedded in their ideology, their belief system and makes it's virtually impossible to coexist in peace with them because they won't allow it.

The amount of support that remained for Trump is concerning.

I'd draw a parallel with you if I may. You're not highly tolerant of centrism in the Democratic Party, but since I assume you also recognize the dangers of Trumpism you accept why there is a need to vote for a Democrat you may not really be enthused about.

On the flip side there is the other form of tolerance where you have people who are not white supremacists who have a tolerance for everything that is bad in the GOP because they are either lifelong Republican voters or because they back one or more issues they support.

For me, personally, that's the fault line in American society now. There's a vast difference between navigating the corporatist elements within a party to achieve your objectives and accepting fascism and white nationalism.

And I don't know how to deal with it. I related how one of my exes sounds like a Republican now with the same song and dance about how the GOP doesn't represent evil and people who vote for them are not bad. When I said that's how Nazism gains a foothold, by turning a blind eye there is no response simply because for a lot of Americans it never goes that deep. They simply do not care about politics fundamentally, so they're willing to go along with just about anything.

My personal solution is to settle in another country most likely. I don't see this level of blind acceptance of authoritarianism and racism ending anytime soon.

The only solution now politically is to keep winning until you can restack the courts, rewrite the books, change the rules and shift the demographic. I won't go blue in the face any longer trying to argue why that means leftists need to keep working with the Democratic Party, because if this near-death experience for our Democracy wasn't enough to convince people of this necessity I don't have the energy anymore to convince them.

I see what you did there.... but you may not be aware of how it comes across so let me explain how it's not quite that clear. You say I'm not 'tolerant' of centrists as if that has any comparison to what is manifesting on the right is what I have come to expect of centrists, yet it's a 'both sides' mentality that fails to recognizance the vast critical differences.

I am tolerant of centrists, they are free to believe any craptastic ideas they wish. Except, I don't call for their removal from society, I don't call them evil, traitors, I don't say they aren't Americans or unworthy of rights and liberties afforded all people. I just point out behavior that I see as harming others or enabling others to harm, I am just criticizing, this isn't intolerance, it's disagreement.

The fact that centrists only see the difference between what the right is doing and what others are as a difference of opinion is exactly the reason centrists so easily defer to the right. They don't see the peril in the 'both sides' as if both are equal and opposites. The religious right does not see it as a difference of opinion, they think they are fighting their holy war.

They have no acceptance for any outcome that includes anyone who believes differently than them. To them we are devils and demons trying to destroy everything and they are sent to save everything from us. There is no 'both sides' in their ideology except when they want to make a defense that obscures the real differences between what it happening but they don't really believe that.

This religious right conservative ideology has a long history of political power and they are always seeking to 'cancel' everyone who isn't part of their in group of sectarian belief. It's been a long fight to gain the rights and liberties for all in this country which they have resisted it very violently at each and every step of the way.

This is not even close to how people have a difference of opinion, who disagree about ideas. You know what the paradox of tolerance is? In a tolerant society the only thing one cannot be tolerant of is intolerance because that intolerance jeopardizes the tolerant society. So the only thing to be intolerant of in a tolerant society is intolerance.

Of course, in a freedom of expression country we cannot limit belief, there are no thought crimes. Although, we can limit behavior and especially limit discrimination of others. They can believe what they want but they cannot behave as they want if it harms others. This mean everything pertaining to the general welfare of every individual or group's life, liberty and pursuit of happiness so to speak.

So this isn't a 'both sides' are intolerant of each other where it's just equals of differing opinion. They are seeking to exclude from society and discriminate against anyone who isn't them but those others, which is actually many sides, are fighting for the rights and liberties as protected by the constitution that the religious right are trying to deny them.

This is not 'both sides' and the republican party has become the party of the religious right holy war which is why you see these types of McCarthyism behavior, the lynch mob mentality and violence that is manifesting so widely in public. Trump is just their avatar, the charismatic icon that they can rally around to motivate the masses to empower them.

When Trump goes away they are still there are they will find others to fill that spot maybe not as effectively as Trump galvanized the party but they are not going away. Those are the forces behind this political movement even if they hide it behind the veneer of it's 'just opinions' but don't be fooled or lulled into a false sense of what is really going on in their minds, it's a holy war to them.

Are there some within the republican party that aren't on board with their holy war? Undoubtedly there are. Although, I'm not here to psychoanalyze them to decide who is or not but I know that if they succeed in getting what they want it doesn't' matter if everyone of them is completely in the know about the ultimate motivations of the religious right. Yet, it's hard to separate them when the whole party is adopting the language of demonization and violence.

They are fighting a holy war but for everyone else we are fighting for the rights, liberties, freedom and safety of everyone in this country and for many for their lives in this world altogether. That isn't 'both sides'.

[Clyde_Style]

The hypocrisy is amazing. After the media called the election for President Trump vs when they called it for Biden:

Spoiler:

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

https://www.cotton.senate.gov/?p=press_release&id=535

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

These self proclaimed patriots are tearing apart the fabric that helped us be a great nation.

Just to reiterate, these aholes are not supporting Trump. They are trying to keep his followers invested in the GOP. They have zero faith that Trump will stay in power. We know they lack even a lick of honesty or sincerity. They don't for a second believe Trump is going to fancy dance his way into holding on to the WH. This is merely posing for his followers so they don't turn against them and cost them the run-offs in GA. That's all this is. It is not a coup in progress. That's dogchit. Ain't happening. It's all theater. McConnell always points to the outfield seats and says he's going to hit a homer and then hits a single or strikes out. That's how he rolls.

[K_ick_God]

Disagree Clyde. His hold is very strong and Pelosi and Schumer are sitting around with their thumbs up their **** as T basically tells people he’s staying.

This isn’t normal and it’s not minor. He’s now denying the actual votes. Very serious.

We have time don’t worry — when has that ever worked out? Crap. People like Trump prey on goodwill and restraint.

[Butch718]

The GOP doesn't care whether they contradict themselves. It doesn't matter if you throw past comments/actions against them. They're all ruthless and have no shame.

They also know their supporters will eat up their lies and bullsh*t. Trump literally makes up crap on the spot, and his supporters don't care one bit. Facts don't matter anymore. Integrity doesn't matter any more. Biden needs to realize that he's not dealing with the GOP party from even 8 years ago. Trump has destroyed all the norms that once existed. His supporters will blindly follow him off a cliff. So will the majority of the party because they're too afraid of primaried in the future.

Dems need to find a backbone and be just as ruthless as the GOP or else they're gonna get their asses handed to them in the midterms.

[Butch718]

Pelosi and Schumer need to be replaced.

So does Tom Perez of the DNC. Hopefully Abrams is the next DNC chair.

[Clyde_Style]

Trumpism definitely turned up the volume on it so it's more heard currently but this isn't a new sentiment and wasn't the first time the volume was up this high. The religious conservative right hates the left, demonizes everyone that isn't them and seeks to eradicate them from existence or at least out of 'their country'. I'm concerned this type of behavior will become a norm from them again because it isn't too far removed from a time that it had been.

Their intolerance to ideas, beliefs and diversity that isn't their own and vitriolic way they treat others is dangerous. It's not as innocuous as just some violent thoughts we may have springing from our monkey mind from time to time. Their intention to behave this way towards others is embedded in their ideology, their belief system and makes it's virtually impossible to coexist in peace with them because they won't allow it.

The amount of support that remained for Trump is concerning.

I'd draw a parallel with you if I may. You're not highly tolerant of centrism in the Democratic Party, but since I assume you also recognize the dangers of Trumpism you accept why there is a need to vote for a Democrat you may not really be enthused about.

On the flip side there is the other form of tolerance where you have people who are not white supremacists who have a tolerance for everything that is bad in the GOP because they are either lifelong Republican voters or because they back one or more issues they support.

For me, personally, that's the fault line in American society now. There's a vast difference between navigating the corporatist elements within a party to achieve your objectives and accepting fascism and white nationalism.

And I don't know how to deal with it. I related how one of my exes sounds like a Republican now with the same song and dance about how the GOP doesn't represent evil and people who vote for them are not bad. When I said that's how Nazism gains a foothold, by turning a blind eye there is no response simply because for a lot of Americans it never goes that deep. They simply do not care about politics fundamentally, so they're willing to go along with just about anything.

My personal solution is to settle in another country most likely. I don't see this level of blind acceptance of authoritarianism and racism ending anytime soon.

The only solution now politically is to keep winning until you can restack the courts, rewrite the books, change the rules and shift the demographic. I won't go blue in the face any longer trying to argue why that means leftists need to keep working with the Democratic Party, because if this near-death experience for our Democracy wasn't enough to convince people of this necessity I don't have the energy anymore to convince them.

I see what you did there.... but you may not be aware of how it comes across so let me explain how it's not quite that clear. You say I'm not 'tolerant' of centrists as if that has any comparison to what is manifesting on the right is what I have come to expect centrists, yet it's a 'both sides' mentality that fails to recognizance the vast critical differences.

I am tolerant of centrists, they are free to believe any craptastic ideas they wish. Except, I don't call for their removal from society, I don't call them evil, traitors, I don't say they aren't Americans or unworthy of rights and liberties afforded all people. I just point out behavior that I see as harming others or enabling others to harm, I am just criticizing, this isn't intolerance, it's disagreement.

The fact that centrists only see the difference between what the right is doing and what others are as a difference of opinion is exactly the reason centrists so easily defer to the right. They don't see the peril in the 'both sides' as if both are equal and opposites. The religious right does not see it as a difference of opinion, they think they are fighting their holy war.

They have no acceptance for any outcome that includes anyone who believes differently than them. To them we are devils and demons trying to destroy everything and they are sent to save everything from us. There is no 'both sides' in their ideology except when they want to make a defense that obscures the real differences between what it happening but they don't really believe that.

This religious right conservative ideology has a long history of political power and they are always seeking to 'cancel' everyone who isn't part of their in group of sectarian belief. It's been a long fight to gain the rights and liberties for all in this country which they have resisted it very violently at each and every step of the way.

This is not even close to how people have a difference of opinion, who disagree about ideas. You know what the paradox of tolerance is? In a tolerant society the only thing one cannot be tolerant of is intolerance because that intolerance jeopardizes the tolerant society. So the only thing to be intolerant of in a tolerant society is intolerance.

Of course, in a freedom of expression country we cannot limit belief, there are no thought crimes. Although, we can limit behavior and especially limit discrimination of others. They can believe what they want but they cannot behave as they want if it harms others. This mean everything pertaining to the general welfare of every individual or group's life, liberty and pursuit of happiness so to speak.

So this isn't a 'both sides' are intolerant of each other where it's just equals of differing opinion. They are seeking to exclude from society and discriminate against anyone who isn't them but those others, which is actually many sides, are fighting for the rights and liberties as protected by the constitution that the religious right are trying to deny them.

This is not 'both sides' and the republican party has become the party of the religious right holy war which is why you see these types of McCarthyism behavior, the lynch mob mentality and violence that is manifesting so widely in public. Trump is just their avatar, the charismatic icon that they can rally around to motivate the masses to empower them.

When Trump goes away they are still there are they will find others to fill that spot maybe not as effectively as Trump galvanized the party but they are not going away. Those are the forces behind this political movement even if they hide it behind the veneer of it's 'just opinions' but don't be fooled or lulled into a false sense of what is really going on in their minds, it's a holy war to them.

Are there some within the republican party that aren't on board with their holy war? Undoubtedly there are. Although, I'm not here to psychoanalyze them to decide who is or not but I know that if they succeed in getting what they want it doesn't' matter if everyone of them is completely in the know about the ultimate motivations of the religious right. Yet, it's hard to separate them when the whole party is adopting the language of demonization and violence.

They are fighting a holy war but for everyone else we are fighting for the rights, liberties, freedom and safety of everyone in this country and for many for their lives in this world altogether. That isn't 'both sides'.

Except I'm not in the least deferring to the right, so perhaps you want to recalibrate as well. I don't want to appeal to the right of center. I want to see the opposition to fascists unite within the Democratic party while continuing to hash out their differences. I say to hell with trying to woo Republicans at this point. I don't care. They showed how they roll, even more so in this election. But you do need the independents or the power will tip back to the GOP. So you do need to appeal to some element called a swing voter. I don't care what you call them any longer.

As far as the semantics around the word "tolerance" and my positing a thesis and anti-thesis between tolerating a spectrum within the Democratic Party and tolerating racist fascists as a Republican I'm in agreement there is a kind of holy war being waged.

Though it is two sides ultimately. Not sure why you need to split hairs on the word "sides"

Maybe Rob wants to comment on that. The Harlan Country Wars in Kentucky produced the song Which Side Are You On:

Which side are you on boys?
Which side are you on?
Which side are you on boys?
Which side are you on?
They say in Harlan County
There are no neutrals there.
You'll either be a union man
Or a thug for J. H. Blair.

anyway, the rabbit hole blackness of the GOP produces a counter-reaction (or it doesn't), but the idea of sides in the current situation as I see it is they created the division and it is up to us to respond by coalescing into an effective (and winning) opposition. There are two side because of the GOP (or the culture war or holy war or whichever term suits you)

So we don't really get to choose. If there are five disparate and disunified forms of opposition countering the death star, then the death star will win. There are two sides because there is a death star, not because your POV or my POV is superior about how to counter it. At some point, guys like you and I need to be unified or they will win their jihad and then we all lose

[Dranae]

lol in four years, if he's even still alive, Trump will be a drooling husk with a dwindling 50 word vocabularly primarily devoted to barking demands at his Mexican nurse for a cheeseburger and another hit of speed

He'll be so decrepit he'll make Commander Pike from Star Trek look like a Rockette by comparison

Sadly. The GOP would still vote for him.

Sent from my SM-G988U using RealGM mobile app

[EricAnderson]

What would make any of these people believe Trump has a religious bone in his body?

Are people from NYC just less gullible then a lot of the country?

[Clyde_Style]

Disagree Clyde. His hold is very strong and Pelosi and Schumer are sitting around with their thumbs up their **** as T basically tells people he’s staying.

This isn’t normal and it’s not minor. He’s now denying the actual votes. Very serious.

We have time don’t worry — when has that ever worked out? Crap. People like Trump prey on goodwill and restraint.

No, it's a sucker's game. He is not overturning the vote. This is delusional theater. If you fall for it, that's on you

[Clyde_Style]

lol in four years, if he's even still alive, Trump will be a drooling husk with a dwindling 50 word vocabularly primarily devoted to barking demands at his Mexican nurse for a cheeseburger and another hit of speed

He'll be so decrepit he'll make Commander Pike from Star Trek look like a Rockette by comparison

Sadly. The GOP would still vote for him.

Sent from my SM-G988U using RealGM mobile app

Some still would. But it is not happening. He is going to prison and will be a vegetable in four years

[Dranae]

lol in four years, if he's even still alive, Trump will be a drooling husk with a dwindling 50 word vocabularly primarily devoted to barking demands at his Mexican nurse for a cheeseburger and another hit of speed

He'll be so decrepit he'll make Commander Pike from Star Trek look like a Rockette by comparison

Sadly. The GOP would still vote for him.

Sent from my SM-G988U using RealGM mobile app

Some still would. But it is not happening. He is going to prison and will be a vegetable in four years

So we hope.

Sent from my SM-G988U using RealGM mobile app

[Appleshampoo]

What would make any of these people believe Trump has a religious bone in his body?

Are people from NYC just less gullible then a lot of the country?

They see Trump as a vehicle to do their political activism and rub it in liberal faces. The court packing through the federal judiciary was a giant success in evangelicals world.

[Clyde_Style]

When the opposition to the cult becomes as literal minded as the followers of the cult, you know the disnfo tactics are working

Amazed at how many of you are being suckered into the vortex and thinking they have more than 0% chance of overturning the election

Get a grip!

[stuporman]

The amount of support that remained for Trump is concerning.

I'd draw a parallel with you if I may. You're not highly tolerant of centrism in the Democratic Party, but since I assume you also recognize the dangers of Trumpism you accept why there is a need to vote for a Democrat you may not really be enthused about.

On the flip side there is the other form of tolerance where you have people who are not white supremacists who have a tolerance for everything that is bad in the GOP because they are either lifelong Republican voters or because they back one or more issues they support.

For me, personally, that's the fault line in American society now. There's a vast difference between navigating the corporatist elements within a party to achieve your objectives and accepting fascism and white nationalism.

And I don't know how to deal with it. I related how one of my exes sounds like a Republican now with the same song and dance about how the GOP doesn't represent evil and people who vote for them are not bad. When I said that's how Nazism gains a foothold, by turning a blind eye there is no response simply because for a lot of Americans it never goes that deep. They simply do not care about politics fundamentally, so they're willing to go along with just about anything.

My personal solution is to settle in another country most likely. I don't see this level of blind acceptance of authoritarianism and racism ending anytime soon.

The only solution now politically is to keep winning until you can restack the courts, rewrite the books, change the rules and shift the demographic. I won't go blue in the face any longer trying to argue why that means leftists need to keep working with the Democratic Party, because if this near-death experience for our Democracy wasn't enough to convince people of this necessity I don't have the energy anymore to convince them.

I see what you did there.... but you may not be aware of how it comes across so let me explain how it's not quite that clear. You say I'm not 'tolerant' of centrists as if that has any comparison to what is manifesting on the right is what I have come to expect centrists, yet it's a 'both sides' mentality that fails to recognizance the vast critical differences.

I am tolerant of centrists, they are free to believe any craptastic ideas they wish. Except, I don't call for their removal from society, I don't call them evil, traitors, I don't say they aren't Americans or unworthy of rights and liberties afforded all people. I just point out behavior that I see as harming others or enabling others to harm, I am just criticizing, this isn't intolerance, it's disagreement.

The fact that centrists only see the difference between what the right is doing and what others are as a difference of opinion is exactly the reason centrists so easily defer to the right. They don't see the peril in the 'both sides' as if both are equal and opposites. The religious right does not see it as a difference of opinion, they think they are fighting their holy war.

They have no acceptance for any outcome that includes anyone who believes differently than them. To them we are devils and demons trying to destroy everything and they are sent to save everything from us. There is no 'both sides' in their ideology except when they want to make a defense that obscures the real differences between what it happening but they don't really believe that.

This religious right conservative ideology has a long history of political power and they are always seeking to 'cancel' everyone who isn't part of their in group of sectarian belief. It's been a long fight to gain the rights and liberties for all in this country which they have resisted it very violently at each and every step of the way.

This is not even close to how people have a difference of opinion, who disagree about ideas. You know what the paradox of tolerance is? In a tolerant society the only thing one cannot be tolerant of is intolerance because that intolerance jeopardizes the tolerant society. So the only thing to be intolerant of in a tolerant society is intolerance.

Of course, in a freedom of expression country we cannot limit belief, there are no thought crimes. Although, we can limit behavior and especially limit discrimination of others. They can believe what they want but they cannot behave as they want if it harms others. This mean everything pertaining to the general welfare of every individual or group's life, liberty and pursuit of happiness so to speak.

So this isn't a 'both sides' are intolerant of each other where it's just equals of differing opinion. They are seeking to exclude from society and discriminate against anyone who isn't them but those others, which is actually many sides, are fighting for the rights and liberties as protected by the constitution that the religious right are trying to deny them.

This is not 'both sides' and the republican party has become the party of the religious right holy war which is why you see these types of McCarthyism behavior, the lynch mob mentality and violence that is manifesting so widely in public. Trump is just their avatar, the charismatic icon that they can rally around to motivate the masses to empower them.

When Trump goes away they are still there are they will find others to fill that spot maybe not as effectively as Trump galvanized the party but they are not going away. Those are the forces behind this political movement even if they hide it behind the veneer of it's 'just opinions' but don't be fooled or lulled into a false sense of what is really going on in their minds, it's a holy war to them.

Are there some within the republican party that aren't on board with their holy war? Undoubtedly there are. Although, I'm not here to psychoanalyze them to decide who is or not but I know that if they succeed in getting what they want it doesn't' matter if everyone of them is completely in the know about the ultimate motivations of the religious right. Yet, it's hard to separate them when the whole party is adopting the language of demonization and violence.

They are fighting a holy war but for everyone else we are fighting for the rights, liberties, freedom and safety of everyone in this country and for many for their lives in this world altogether. That isn't 'both sides'.

Except I'm not in the least deferring to the right, so perhaps you want to recalibrate as well. I don't want to appeal to the right of center. I want to see the opposition to fascists unite within the Democratic party while continuing to hash out their differences. I say to hell with trying to woo Republicans at this point. I don't care. They showed how they roll, even more so in this election. But you do need the independents or the power will tip back to the GOP. So you do need to appeal to some element called a swing voter. I don't care what you call them any longer.

As far as the semantics around the word "tolerance" and my positing a thesis and anti-thesis between tolerating a spectrum within the Democratic Party and tolerating racist fascists as a Republican I'm in agreement there is a kind of holy war being waged.

Though it is two sides ultimately. Not sure why you need to split hairs on the word "sides"

Maybe Rob wants to comment on that. The Harlan Country Wars in Kentucky produced the song Which Side Are You On:

Which side are you on boys?
Which side are you on?
Which side are you on boys?
Which side are you on?
They say in Harlan County
There are no neutrals there.
You'll either be a union man
Or a thug for J. H. Blair.

anyway, the rabbit hole blackness of the GOP produces a counter-reaction (or it doesn't), but the idea of sides in the current situation as I see it is they created the division and it is up to us to respond by coalescing into an effective (and winning) opposition. There are two side because of the GOP (or the culture war or holy war or whichever term suits you)

So we don't really get to choose. If there are five disparate and disunified forms of opposition countering the death star, then the death star will win. There are two sides because there is a death star, not because your POV or my POV is superior about how to counter it. At some point, guys like you and I need to be unified or they will win their jihad and then we all lose

When you draw a parallel between a difference of opinion to demonization and discrimination then there doesn't isn't any recalibration needed. This is deferring to them by minimizing their brutal behavior and I have seen you draw a clear distinction between what is coming out of the right as more dangerous to our society compared to the rest of the populous so unsure of your intent here.

This isn't some movie, it is what it is. We do have many groups represented by 'the big tent' hence the term, we don't just fight for ourselves we fight for all even if we don't agree with each other. That's America and it used to be what the right at least espoused in theory if not on practice. Our unity is in resistance to the violence and discrimination from the right, not unity of opinion.

[Clyde_Style]

I see what you did there.... but you may not be aware of how it comes across so let me explain how it's not quite that clear. You say I'm not 'tolerant' of centrists as if that has any comparison to what is manifesting on the right is what I have come to expect centrists, yet it's a 'both sides' mentality that fails to recognizance the vast critical differences.

I am tolerant of centrists, they are free to believe any craptastic ideas they wish. Except, I don't call for their removal from society, I don't call them evil, traitors, I don't say they aren't Americans or unworthy of rights and liberties afforded all people. I just point out behavior that I see as harming others or enabling others to harm, I am just criticizing, this isn't intolerance, it's disagreement.

The fact that centrists only see the difference between what the right is doing and what others are as a difference of opinion is exactly the reason centrists so easily defer to the right. They don't see the peril in the 'both sides' as if both are equal and opposites. The religious right does not see it as a difference of opinion, they think they are fighting their holy war.

They have no acceptance for any outcome that includes anyone who believes differently than them. To them we are devils and demons trying to destroy everything and they are sent to save everything from us. There is no 'both sides' in their ideology except when they want to make a defense that obscures the real differences between what it happening but they don't really believe that.

This religious right conservative ideology has a long history of political power and they are always seeking to 'cancel' everyone who isn't part of their in group of sectarian belief. It's been a long fight to gain the rights and liberties for all in this country which they have resisted it very violently at each and every step of the way.

This is not even close to how people have a difference of opinion, who disagree about ideas. You know what the paradox of tolerance is? In a tolerant society the only thing one cannot be tolerant of is intolerance because that intolerance jeopardizes the tolerant society. So the only thing to be intolerant of in a tolerant society is intolerance.

Of course, in a freedom of expression country we cannot limit belief, there are no thought crimes. Although, we can limit behavior and especially limit discrimination of others. They can believe what they want but they cannot behave as they want if it harms others. This mean everything pertaining to the general welfare of every individual or group's life, liberty and pursuit of happiness so to speak.

So this isn't a 'both sides' are intolerant of each other where it's just equals of differing opinion. They are seeking to exclude from society and discriminate against anyone who isn't them but those others, which is actually many sides, are fighting for the rights and liberties as protected by the constitution that the religious right are trying to deny them.

This is not 'both sides' and the republican party has become the party of the religious right holy war which is why you see these types of McCarthyism behavior, the lynch mob mentality and violence that is manifesting so widely in public. Trump is just their avatar, the charismatic icon that they can rally around to motivate the masses to empower them.

When Trump goes away they are still there are they will find others to fill that spot maybe not as effectively as Trump galvanized the party but they are not going away. Those are the forces behind this political movement even if they hide it behind the veneer of it's 'just opinions' but don't be fooled or lulled into a false sense of what is really going on in their minds, it's a holy war to them.

Are there some within the republican party that aren't on board with their holy war? Undoubtedly there are. Although, I'm not here to psychoanalyze them to decide who is or not but I know that if they succeed in getting what they want it doesn't' matter if everyone of them is completely in the know about the ultimate motivations of the religious right. Yet, it's hard to separate them when the whole party is adopting the language of demonization and violence.

They are fighting a holy war but for everyone else we are fighting for the rights, liberties, freedom and safety of everyone in this country and for many for their lives in this world altogether. That isn't 'both sides'.

Except I'm not in the least deferring to the right, so perhaps you want to recalibrate as well. I don't want to appeal to the right of center. I want to see the opposition to fascists unite within the Democratic party while continuing to hash out their differences. I say to hell with trying to woo Republicans at this point. I don't care. They showed how they roll, even more so in this election. But you do need the independents or the power will tip back to the GOP. So you do need to appeal to some element called a swing voter. I don't care what you call them any longer.

As far as the semantics around the word "tolerance" and my positing a thesis and anti-thesis between tolerating a spectrum within the Democratic Party and tolerating racist fascists as a Republican I'm in agreement there is a kind of holy war being waged.

Though it is two sides ultimately. Not sure why you need to split hairs on the word "sides"

Maybe Rob wants to comment on that. The Harlan Country Wars in Kentucky produced the song Which Side Are You On:

Which side are you on boys?
Which side are you on?
Which side are you on boys?
Which side are you on?
They say in Harlan County
There are no neutrals there.
You'll either be a union man
Or a thug for J. H. Blair.

anyway, the rabbit hole blackness of the GOP produces a counter-reaction (or it doesn't), but the idea of sides in the current situation as I see it is they created the division and it is up to us to respond by coalescing into an effective (and winning) opposition. There are two side because of the GOP (or the culture war or holy war or whichever term suits you)

So we don't really get to choose. If there are five disparate and disunified forms of opposition countering the death star, then the death star will win. There are two sides because there is a death star, not because your POV or my POV is superior about how to counter it. At some point, guys like you and I need to be unified or they will win their jihad and then we all lose

When you draw a parallel between a difference of opinion to demonization and discrimination then there doesn't isn't any recalibration needed. This is deferring to them by minimizing their brutal behavior and I have seen you draw a clear distinction between what is coming out of the right as more dangerous to our society compared to the rest of the populous so unsure of your intent here.

This isn't some movie, it is what it is. We do have many groups represented by 'the big tent' hence the term, we don't just fight for ourselves we fight for all even if we don't agree with each other. That's America and it used to be what the right at least espoused in theory if not on practice. Our unity is in resistance to the violence and discrimination from the right, not unity of opinion.

I'm fine with saying we are fundamentally in agreement

[stuporman]

What's playing out here has a deeper impact than this single election, it's going to be an ongoing tactic and rhetoric for years if not decades to come with the right trying to invalidate everything that doesn't empower them.

[Appleshampoo]

What's playing out here has a deeper impact than this single election, it's going to be an ongoing tactic and rhetoric for years if not decades to come with the right trying to invalidate everything that doesn't empower them.

Bingo. The right is relentless in moving the goal post. They operate the public debate as if the democrats as delegitimate and republicans victims of liberal conspiracy. They operate in practice cheating and purging votes. The best case for democrats now is Joe Biden has a harder time having an effective first term. Biden will sneeze and they'll scream he's a radical. America will not survive the next 100 years this way.

[Clyde_Style]

What's playing out here has a deeper impact than this single election, it's going to be an ongoing tactic and rhetoric for years if not decades to come with the right trying to invalidate everything that doesn't empower them.

Bingo. The right is relentless in moving the goal post. They operate the public debate as if the democrats as delegitimate and republicans victims of liberal conspiracy. They operate in practice cheating and purging votes. The best case for democrats now is Joe Biden has a harder time having an effective first term. Biden will sneeze and they'll scream he's a radical. America will not survive the next 100 years this way.

Agreed

Why I say this is exactly when not to let down your guard. Biden winning was huge, but it will amount to nothing if it is not built upon

No choice but to play for all or nothing now

You have to win and win some more until you've sealed all the cracks in the door