2019-2020 College/Draft thread (Part 5) -LOTTO 8/25 DRAFT 10/15!

[moocow007]

I don't see how Randle would help if you had LaMelo/RJ/Randle/Mitcho on the court.

If LaMelo and RJ are running the P&R with Mitch. What exactly would Randle be doing in his lesser role to help those guys without the ball?

I think you are assuming that the Knicks would be successful in P&R with RJ instead of Randle. Honestly if the goal is for best team offensive execution that it would be better to replace RJ with Randle in that same scheme since Randle is the better passer and scorer...and shooter (as of right now). So it's not like what you are proposing is ideal either or any better.

If the goal is to just get rid of Randle on the notion that he's blocking Barrett then forget MOnk and that 2nd and instead ask the Hornets to give the Knicks an incentive to give them the perfect guy for their needs that just costs them a useless $27 million carcass.

RJ had an eFG % on catch and shoot situations of 50.3% in his rookie year and Randle had an eFG% in C&S situations of 46.9%

RJ was also a better 3 point shooter 32% to 27.7%

I wouldn't specifcally say Randle is a better passer either.

RJ 1.18 Assist to turnover ratio
Randle 1.03 Assit to turnover ratio

Randle is simply a high usage player that bogs down the offense. The knicks offense would be more modern with even Iggy or Knox just being a simply small ball 4 floor spacer than Randle. That not even suggesting if we go after a Bertans type if FA who would have a significantly higher impact that Randle.

And if you use RJ as much as they used Randle what do you think those percentages would be? And you throw Bertans into a role that requires him to be used more and play outside of his comfort zone, what do you think that will do to him? So the notion that Bertans will have a significantly higher impact than Randle is dubious. You guys are trying to argue apples and oranges here as both apples.

The bottom line is what you guys are proposing is via the same mindset that Phil Jackson saw things when he traded guys he didn't like to teams that needed exactly what those guys would offer them. And what he got was what he value those players at not what the other teams valued those players at.

So fine trade Randle but get something that is closer to what Randle could be worth to that team and don't just see it as "I gotta dump Randle's contract". The notion that the media is coming up with that Randle isn't worth anything (cause he couldn't be Lebron James like for the Knicks...which is what the Knicks needed him to be for them to be successful) is only true if that's what our front office succumbs to believing.

[moocow007]

This is the same type of mentality that said we need to get rid of Carmelo Anthony. Once we do, we'll be better. Cause then Carmelo wouldn't be doing this or that that other players could do or holding people back. Well? How'd that work out? And no, this is not trying to defend Carmelo, it's stating simple reality. If it was really that easy, where you just get rid of the guy holding the rock the most and it's it, then every team would be better than they are cause it's easy to identify the guy that isn't living up to ungodly expectations.

[Capn'O]

What's that? Dunk the ball when no one is guarding the basket?

Score? I admittedly didn't watch him much but his TS% is AWESOME Has a 3-ball and stuff.

He's older than most everyone else so my concern is how much more development he has. He is top heavy which may become an issue as he'll not be getting the same type of position he's used to know to work his all around offensive game. He does shoot well for a big man but every day more and more of those types become available and it's not like he takes a lot of them. He's not exactly a great defender and isn't near the type of rebounder someone his size and athleticsm should be which tells me he's more interested in scoring than anything else. How many heavily offensive centric PF/C's are there in the NBA that aren't also leading their teams in assists (which he won't be doing) are there in the NBA?

Like a big ol' Tobias Harris maybe? Aaron Gordon? Obv. healthy Amare? Derrick Williams???

I don't want to be placed in an Obi camp as I don't typically like bigs that don't defend. The man can score though. That's all I'm saying. And in this (not deep) draft - if we're at 6-8 you have to consider a guy that has some NBA level skills and elite quickness for his size.

Hell, I traded away all my picks in this draft. Wasn't a huge fan.

[robillionaire]

This is the same type of mentality that said we need to get rid of Carmelo Anthony. Once we do, we'll be better. Cause then Carmelo wouldn't be doing this or that that other players could do or holding people back. Well? How'd that work out? And no, this is not trying to defend Carmelo, it's stating simple reality. If it was really that easy, where you just get rid of the guy holding the rock the most and it's it, then every team would be better than they are cause it's easy to identify the guy that isn't living up to ungodly expectations.

Well, the young player on the team got the ball more and immediately became an all-star. Maybe if we give our young guys his touches and open the floor more for them we could get them in a position to succeed as well

[moocow007]

Score? I admittedly didn't watch him much but his TS% is AWESOME Has a 3-ball and stuff.

He's older than most everyone else so my concern is how much more development he has. He is top heavy which may become an issue as he'll not be getting the same type of position he's used to know to work his all around offensive game. He does shoot well for a big man but every day more and more of those types become available and it's not like he takes a lot of them. He's not exactly a great defender and isn't near the type of rebounder someone his size and athleticsm should be which tells me he's more interested in scoring than anything else. How many heavily offensive centric PF/C's are there in the NBA that aren't also leading their teams in assists (which he won't be doing) are there in the NBA?

Like a big ol' Tobias Harris maybe? Aaron Gordon? Obv. healthy Amare?

I don't want to be placed in an Obi camp as I don't typically like bigs that don't defend. The man can score though. That's all I'm saying. And in this (not deep) draft - if we're at 6-8 you have to consider a guy that has an NBA level skill.

I hear you and agree. I would consider him in the 6-8 range depending on who slips and doesn't slip. Just trying to temper some of the zealousness that some folks seem to have about Toppin.

As far as those guys you mentioned? Obi isn't any of those guys IMO.

I'm not really sure why folks keep saying that Obi Toppin is like a young Amare Stoudemire. He really isn't. Just because both guys could dunk real well doesn't mean they are the same type of player or (more importantly at this stage) the same type of mentality. Toppin is a lot more skilled than Aaron Gordon was but not near as athletic. Tobias Harris? Ehh.

But since it's in this thread, I'm honestly surprised at the people that want Toppin cause a lot of them are the one's that usually rail on guys that are just mostly all offense and have to have the ball in their hands to be effective. Not everyone of course but way too many.

[Capn'O]

This is the same type of mentality that said we need to get rid of Carmelo Anthony. Once we do, we'll be better. Cause then Carmelo wouldn't be doing this or that that other players could do or holding people back. Well? How'd that work out? And no, this is not trying to defend Carmelo, it's stating simple reality. If it was really that easy, where you just get rid of the guy holding the rock the most and it's it, then every team would be better than they are cause it's easy to identify the guy that isn't living up to ungodly expectations.

Getting rid of Carmelo got us Mitch and also made us really bad, which we needed. Would redo 10/10 times.

[Capn'O]

But since it's in this thread, I'm honestly surprised at the people that want Toppin cause a lot of them are the one's that usually rail on guys that are just mostly all offense and have to have the ball in their hands to be effective. Not everyone of course but way too many.

He's not a guy I would usually go for. I honestly just want us to get BPA though and we do have a need at PF. He doesn't duplicate skills that other players on our squad have... he could be a good asset or player in that range. We can't **** up again like we did with Knox. Or even to a lesser extent Frank, though I'm still hopeful for him.

[moocow007]

This is the same type of mentality that said we need to get rid of Carmelo Anthony. Once we do, we'll be better. Cause then Carmelo wouldn't be doing this or that that other players could do or holding people back. Well? How'd that work out? And no, this is not trying to defend Carmelo, it's stating simple reality. If it was really that easy, where you just get rid of the guy holding the rock the most and it's it, then every team would be better than they are cause it's easy to identify the guy that isn't living up to ungodly expectations.

Well, the young player on the team got the ball more and immediately became an all-star. Maybe if we give our young guys his touches and open the floor more for them we could get them in a position to succeed as well

Randle actually took almost the same number of shots per minute played with the Knicks as he did with a much more offensively talented Pelicans team so I'm not sure what shots he took away from other players on the Knicks this past season. The problem with the Knicks was that their offensive execution was among the bottom in the NBA. The lack of a starting PG or anyone that can really create their own shot was a major contributor to that problem. Had they had guys that actually could execute and run and create for themselves and others there'd have been more opportunities and better opportunities for everyone on this team. I mean honestly, tell me who on this team the Knicks had that showed consistent ability to create their own shot or that can setup easy shots for others? There was no one. That's why they tried Barrett at point forward. That's why they tried 2 "point guard" lineups. That's why Marcus Morris took so so so many shots when he was still with the team. Cause they had no choice but to let the guys that actually had some offensive talent bare the burden of trying to score points. That's why Steve Mills was the worst front office executive in the NBA, why the Knicks have been bottom feeders and why Mills was fired. You get a real shot creator on this team and folks that can't create their own shot will get more shots and not only more shots, but better shot opportunities.

[JXL]

1) Draft a PG - My vote: Tyrese Haliburton
2) Draft a forward with an NBA skill - My vote: Tyler Bey
3) Draft a high upside SG so that RJ can move to the 3 in a few years - My vote: Leandro Bolmaro


That's how I would make my draft board.

[Deeeez Knicks]

Randle is not the only problem, but he is a problem. Knicks just need to move on and clear the cap space for '21 just in case.

I have no problem with moving Randle but the only realistic way to get anyone of merit in free agency is if the Knicks actually show that someone that they have some serious firepower and talent. In the proposed trade they'd get nothing but move Randle in time for 2021 free agency. All that cap space doesn't mean a thing, we've already seen that. So I don't want folks to think that if they get rid of Randle's contract that it actually means anything significant.

And moving on doesn't mean that you do what Phil Jackson did (Jackson just wanted to move on). You trade guys that clearly have value for the other team (back then it was Dallas and Miami if I recall) for nothing but capspace that ended up being useless.

The knicks need to build a cohesive team and Randle doesn't fit. Its really just that. Cap space isn't a problem. Replace Randle with a 4 that can shoot and doesn't require the ball/paint as much and itll help open things up.

We will probably be bad next year again and maybe not sign anyone. Kinda another reason just to get rid of him. Bottom out. Either way, its not like Randle is going to attract free agents. He was maybe the 3rd best player on the pelicans and AD still requested a trade.

[Capn'O]

I think the Amar'e comparisons come not only from the dunking style but his ability to slip and find space with great quickness. And no defense and weak ass slip screens.

[Deeeez Knicks]

But since it's in this thread, I'm honestly surprised at the people that want Toppin cause a lot of them are the one's that usually rail on guys that are just mostly all offense and have to have the ball in their hands to be effective. Not everyone of course but way too many.

He's not a guy I would usually go for. I honestly just want us to get BPA though and we do have a need at PF. He doesn't duplicate skills that other players on our squad have... he could be a good asset or player in that range. We can't **** up again like we did with Knox. Or even to a lesser extent Frank, though I'm still hopeful for him.

No Obi man. That is the #1 guy i do not want

[moocow007]

On Julius Randle and taking shots form other players...

Randle was 31st in the NBA in FG attempts per game even though he was technically brought in as the Knicks defacto no.1 option. And this was on a team where the only other consistent offensive player was Marcus Morris (who ended up being a bench player for the Clippers) and the team among the worst in offensive efficiency.

[Capn'O]

But since it's in this thread, I'm honestly surprised at the people that want Toppin cause a lot of them are the one's that usually rail on guys that are just mostly all offense and have to have the ball in their hands to be effective. Not everyone of course but way too many.

He's not a guy I would usually go for. I honestly just want us to get BPA though and we do have a need at PF. He doesn't duplicate skills that other players on our squad have... he could be a good asset or player in that range. We can't **** up again like we did with Knox. Or even to a lesser extent Frank, though I'm still hopeful for him.

No Obi man. That is the #1 guy i do not want

What is your 6-8 wish list?

Yek is my Big Board #1 in that range but don't love him for us as I think Mitch is our C. Cole, Hayes, and Haliburton are of interest. Don't know jack about this Vassell character who has magically jumped the rankings.

[moocow007]

Randle is not the only problem, but he is a problem. Knicks just need to move on and clear the cap space for '21 just in case.

I have no problem with moving Randle but the only realistic way to get anyone of merit in free agency is if the Knicks actually show that someone that they have some serious firepower and talent. In the proposed trade they'd get nothing but move Randle in time for 2021 free agency. All that cap space doesn't mean a thing, we've already seen that. So I don't want folks to think that if they get rid of Randle's contract that it actually means anything significant.

And moving on doesn't mean that you do what Phil Jackson did (Jackson just wanted to move on). You trade guys that clearly have value for the other team (back then it was Dallas and Miami if I recall) for nothing but capspace that ended up being useless.

The knicks need to build a cohesive team and Randle doesn't fit. Its really just that. Cap space isn't a problem. Replace Randle with a 4 that can shoot and doesn't require the ball/paint as much and itll help open things up.

We will probably be bad next year again and maybe not sign anyone. Kinda another reason just to get rid of him. Bottom out. Either way, its not like Randle is going to attract free agents. He was maybe the 3rd best player on the pelicans and AD still requested a trade.

AD was going to request a trade regardless of who was on that team. Even if Lebron ended up on the Pelicans he was gone. He was tired of not being recognized and he wanted to be in a big media market. Randle wasn't the reason for it any more than the notion that Zion Williamson coming in was the reason.

Again, my issue isn't with trading Randle. It's with simply just taking whatever to get rid of him. Hopefully if the Knicks end up trading him they do better than what previous regimes got in trades.

[Deeeez Knicks]

On Julius Randle and taking shots form other players...

Randle was 31st in the NBA in FG attempts per game even though he was technically the Knicks defacto no.1 option. And this was on a team where the only other consistent offensive player was Marcus Morris (who ended up being a bench player for the Clippers) and the team among the worst in offensive efficiency.

Its more the type of shots and where he took his shots. His game is going downhill and going to the rim. Taking shots in the paint. Our 2 best young players are Mitch and RJ and they also like to do that. Just not enough room for all of them. At least someone like Marcus Morris was scoring a lot from the perimeter and getting most of his buckets from outside. We just need more balance and perimeter scoring.

[robillionaire]

This is the same type of mentality that said we need to get rid of Carmelo Anthony. Once we do, we'll be better. Cause then Carmelo wouldn't be doing this or that that other players could do or holding people back. Well? How'd that work out? And no, this is not trying to defend Carmelo, it's stating simple reality. If it was really that easy, where you just get rid of the guy holding the rock the most and it's it, then every team would be better than they are cause it's easy to identify the guy that isn't living up to ungodly expectations.

Well, the young player on the team got the ball more and immediately became an all-star. Maybe if we give our young guys his touches and open the floor more for them we could get them in a position to succeed as well

Randle actually took almost the same number of shots per minute played with the Knicks as he did with a much more offensively talented Pelicans team so I'm not sure what shots he took away from other players on the Knicks this past season. The problem with the Knicks was that their offensive execution was among the bottom in the NBA. The lack of a starting PG or anyone that can really create their own shot was a major contributor to that problem. Had they had guys that actually could execute and run and create for themselves and others there'd have been more opportunities and better opportunities for everyone on this team. I mean honestly, tell me who on this team the Knicks had that showed consistent ability to create their own shot or that can setup easy shots for others? There was no one. That's why they tried Barrett at point forward. That's why they tried 2 "point guard" lineups. That's why Marcus Morris took so so so many shots when he was still with the team. Cause they had no choice but to let the guys that actually had some offensive talent bare the burden of trying to score points. That's why Steve Mills was the worst front office executive in the NBA, why the Knicks have been bottom feeders and why Mills was fired. You get a real shot creator on this team and folks that can't create their own shot will get more shots and not only more shots, but better shot opportunities.

It’s not just shots per minute. What about plays lost due to turnovers, or ones where he dominated the ball and maybe got a pass off at the end. What was his usage rate? You’re right about our lack of a playmaker and that’s why we are drafting a PG (LaMelo), but we can get a stretch 4 with a lower usage rate. It was a rhetorical question but he was 26th in the nba in usg%

[moocow007]

On Julius Randle and taking shots form other players...

Randle was 31st in the NBA in FG attempts per game even though he was technically the Knicks defacto no.1 option. And this was on a team where the only other consistent offensive player was Marcus Morris (who ended up being a bench player for the Clippers) and the team among the worst in offensive efficiency.

Its more the type of shots and where he took his shots. His game is going downhill and going to the rim. Taking shots in the paint. Our 2 best young players are Mitch and RJ and they also like to do that. Just not enough room for all of them. At least someone like Marcus Morris was scoring a lot from the perimeter and getting most of his buckets from outside. We just need more balance and perimeter scoring.

But they weren't near as skilled at it is the problem. And neither Barrett or Robinson had the shot creation ability to make up for the lack of anyone that can actually really execute an offense and create easy shots. That's why Randle went head down mode so much. He's not Lebron James but that's what they needed him to be. They needed him to score AND to create shots. That's not his ideal game. He's better off feeding off of someone else that can handle the ball, draw defenses and create openings for him to do his whirly twerly, shake and bake thing. He had none of that last season. It's the same thing people were complaining about with Carmelo Anthony. They didn't want him to take all the shots and instead wanted him to create for himself when they needed him to but also get everyone else involved and compensate for the lack of any real other shot creating point guards on the team...or basically they needed him to be Lebron James like. And when he couldn't (cause he's not that talented) everything was his fault and he's holding everyone else somehow back. Most teams have 2 top offensive players that can play off one another. The last time the Knicks had 2 players like that was what? 1973? They almost had it in 84 had Bernard King not blown out his knee. And unlike Carmelo who could at least hold his own as a solo act Randle isn't at that level. So he struggled, sometimes terribly. You get rid of him and unless you address the same problem they had last season AND get another more offensive skilled player in this team will struggle even more.

[Deeeez Knicks]

He's not a guy I would usually go for. I honestly just want us to get BPA though and we do have a need at PF. He doesn't duplicate skills that other players on our squad have... he could be a good asset or player in that range. We can't **** up again like we did with Knox. Or even to a lesser extent Frank, though I'm still hopeful for him.

No Obi man. That is the #1 guy i do not want

What is your 6-8 wish list?

Yek is my Big Board #1 in that range but don't love him for us as I think Mitch is our C. Cole, Hayes, and Haliburton are of interest. Don't know jack about this Vassell character who has magically jumped the rankings.

Hayes, Haliburton... then I'm not sure...i do like Vassell a lot so he might be up next. Poku, Hampton, Maxey, Kira, Patrick Williams even....if we are at #8 it gets tough for me.

[RHODEY]

On Julius Randle and taking shots form other players...

Randle was 31st in the NBA in FG attempts per game even though he was technically the Knicks defacto no.1 option. And this was on a team where the only other consistent offensive player was Marcus Morris (who ended up being a bench player for the Clippers) and the team among the worst in offensive efficiency.

Its more the type of shots and where he took his shots. His game is going downhill and going to the rim. Taking shots in the paint. Our 2 best young players are Mitch and RJ and they also like to do that. Just not enough room for all of them. At least someone like Marcus Morris was scoring a lot from the perimeter and getting most of his buckets from outside. We just need more balance and perimeter scoring.

But they weren't near as skilled at it is the problem. And neither Barrett or Robinson had the shot creation ability to make up for the lack of anyone that can actually really execute an offense and create easy shots. That's why Randle went head down mode so much. He's not Lebron James but that's what they needed him to be. They needed him to score AND to create shots. That's not his ideal game. He's better off feeding off of someone else that can handle the ball, draw defenses and create openings for him to do his thing. He had none of that last season. It's the same thing people were complaining about with Carmelo Anthony. They didn't want him to take all the shots and instead wanted him to create for himself when they needed him to but also get everyone else involved and compensate for the lack of any real other shot creating point guards on the team...or basically they needed him to be Lebron James like. And when he couldn't (cause he's not that talented) everything was his fault and he's holding everyone else somehow back.

What do you think about these trades for Randle?