2020-2021 College/Draft Thread 2

[newyorker4ever]

We'd have to go on a few more 5-game winning streaks to miss out on all of the kids who have the talent to become really good starters alongside Julius & Rowan. Bouknight would be great, but so would Moody or Ziaire, failing them Kai Jones & Giddey have interesting tools to work with, etc.

So I'm not too stressed about our draft position now that it's clear we don't suck enough to get a top 5 pick. At this point what I'm most curious about is whether we could get two kids from that tier using some combination of our extra picks and Knox/Frank, since I doubt the FO is ready to cut bait on Obi already...ideally leaving the Pistons pick to move from for Butler.

Cause if we could leave this draft with 2 of Bouknight/Moody/Ziaire and still have that pistons pick to try & upgrade to Butler; I'd be grinning from ear to ear...whether we ended up developing all of that young talent to be part of our core, or moving most of them in a future deal that gave RJ & Julius an established third star a la Mitchell or Booker. Especially if we use our cap space on younger FAs who can grow with our team the way Julius has and end up out-performing their contracts...Trent, Horton-Tucker, Schröder, Lonzo, etc.

Sure would be nice to come out of this draft with a legit shooter like Moody or Kispert, and not just a 3-D type but starting level legit shooter.

[cgf]

We'd have to go on a few more 5-game winning streaks to miss out on all of the kids who have the talent to become really good starters alongside Julius & Rowan. Bouknight would be great, but so would Moody or Ziaire, failing them Kai Jones & Giddey have interesting tools to work with, etc.

So I'm not too stressed about our draft position now that it's clear we don't suck enough to get a top 5 pick. At this point what I'm most curious about is whether we could get two kids from that tier using some combination of our extra picks and Knox/Frank, since I doubt the FO is ready to cut bait on Obi already...ideally leaving the Pistons pick to move from for Butler.

Cause if we could leave this draft with 2 of Bouknight/Moody/Ziaire and still have that pistons pick to try & upgrade to Butler; I'd be grinning from ear to ear...whether we ended up developing all of that young talent to be part of our core, or moving most of them in a future deal that gave RJ & Julius an established third star a la Mitchell or Booker. Especially if we use our cap space on younger FAs who can grow with our team the way Julius has and end up out-performing their contracts...Trent, Horton-Tucker, Schröder, Lonzo, etc.

Sure would be nice to come out of this draft with a legit shooter like Moody or Kispert, and not just a 3-D type but starting level legit shooter.

Moody, Ziaire, Bouknight...I'm not too picky

[newyorker4ever]

Because of all these wins, we're not even going to have a shot at getting Bouknight anymore, unless he slides during the draft. And if he slides, then you have to question what type of player he's really going to be in the NBA, anyway.

If he slides by doing nothing over the next few months then all of a sudden we have to question his impact? Either you like the guy or don't at this point... There's not really anything he can do to change his perception from a scouting perspective.

It’s weird cuz I’m pretty sure he’s said he’s a big Haliburton fan too. The mocks thought he could go as high as 4 and he ended up falling to 12. Stuff like that happens all the time and it’s not always a knock on the player.

I'm just hoping we don't go with who Leon wants after how crazy he was for Obi last year and wanting to trade up for him. He was too blinded by a kid that was putting out showtime dunks to see how stiff he was/is and how bad defensively he was/is.

Leave the drafting to W.Perrin, F.Zanin, B.Aller and whoever else they trust.

[cgf]

If he slides by doing nothing over the next few months then all of a sudden we have to question his impact? Either you like the guy or don't at this point... There's not really anything he can do to change his perception from a scouting perspective.

It’s weird cuz I’m pretty sure he’s said he’s a big Haliburton fan too. The mocks thought he could go as high as 4 and he ended up falling to 12. Stuff like that happens all the time and it’s not always a knock on the player.

I'm just hoping we don't go with who Leon wants after how crazy he was for Obi last year and wanting to trade up for him. He was too blinded by a kid that was putting out showtime dunks to see how stiff he was/is and how bad defensively he was/is.

Leave the drafting to W.Perrin, F.Zanin, B.Aller and whoever else they trust.

If this FO shows that they learn from their mistakes, on top of everything they've done so far that I've liked...I just won't know what to do with myself. The other teams I root for (Union Berlin, Borussia Monchengladbach, Colorado Avalanche) do things like that, not the Knicks.

[jvsimonetti0514]

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Notes on ziaire Williams

Spoiler:

International standouts pushing Ziaire Williams down

For the most part, I've overlooked Williams' underwhelming season for long-term potential. But other NCAA and overseas prospects were strengthening their cases while Williams watched from March 3 on after a 1-for-8 performance during Stanford's Pac-12 tournament loss to USC.

I've moved a few international names ahead of Williams, who shot just 37.4 percent in 20 games. The eye test looked better than his numbers, but except for Cam Reddish, there hasn't been a recent lottery pick (from NCAA) who struggled like Williams did from the field.

As smooth as his jumper looks, he only shot 29.1 percent from three, a little scary for a player who doesn't get to the rim, draw fouls or handle contact. It's still worth gambling on Williams' shooting stroke, shot-making versatility and defensive projection, but the holes in his game are easier to swallow later in the first round.

Davion Mitchell

Spoiler:

Slowing down on Davion Mitchell

Now that the excitement of the NCAA tournament has worn off and we're no longer living in the moment, I've taken a step back to reevaluate Mitchell and gather more feedback.

While scouts expect a team will wind up taking him near the top 10, Mitchell was No. 20 for me before March Madness. History warns about making serious changes based on postseason performance. History also says to be careful with prospects who'll be 23-year-old rookies, though there have been a decent amount of success stories like Devonte' Graham, Malcolm Brogdon, Fred VanVleet, Norman Powell, Jordan Clarkson and Joe Harris.

Still, the surprise late-blooming breakout, age and a 65.2 free-throw percentage cause some hesitation when projecting his offense. And though he should still provide tough defense, it can be easy to overrate a guard's defensive impact out of college. At the next level, good offense beats good defense from the point of attack, and recent tape shows March/April opponents like Texas Tech's Mac McLung (17 points), West Virginia's Miles McBride (19 points) and Villanova's Justin Moore (15 points) still scoring on Mitchell.

I'm not jumping off the wagon—I'm just more comfortable with Mitchell as a pick in the teens or 20s after prospects who are three to four years younger.

Isaiah Jackson

Spoiler:

More to Isaiah Jackson's game?

If you squint hard enough at Jackson's tape, hidden game and skill become visible on certain possessions.

The draw to Jackson still revolves around his bounce and quickness for finishing and shot-blocking. His 12.7 block percentage will be higher than that of other first-round picks. But despite averaging just 8.4 points, flashes of face-up moves, mid-range touch and jump hooks hint at more scoring upside to unlock down the road.

There is a belief that NBA executives who didn't scout much during the season could be swayed by Jackson during workouts, where he'll be able to showcase skill that was masked at Kentucky.

Suggs vs Green

Spoiler:

Debating Jalen Green vs. Jalen Suggs

After Cunningham, there is a case to be made for Green, Mobley and Suggs being deserving of the No. 2 prospect title. But a re-watch of G League Ignite games and deeper dive into Gonzaga's film have led to change on our board.

While there is very little separating Nos. 2-4, Green moves up to No. 2, as I may have overlooked just how sharp, advanced and efficient he was executing against current/former pros and recent draft picks. Special athleticism has always been his signature, specifically ridiculous quickness off the bounce and explosive leaping at the rim. But Green's shot-creation and shot-making have developed into legitimate strengths.

For Ignite, he regularly separated into drives and dribble jumpers with decisive ball-handling moves and footwork. His shot is significantly improved and I'm buying what we saw in February versus previous FIBA and AAU numbers.

Even if he currently lacks strength or tries to avoid contact, some of his finishes highlighted incredibly advantageous hang time and coordination for mid-air adjustments.

It's just too easy to picture an elite NBA scorer given how comfortable he looked in the G League bubble, where averaged 17.9 points on 61.3 percent true shooting before erupting for 30 points in the Ignite's playoff game.

Previously, my fears with Green stemmed from his shot selection and decision-making. He loves his pull-up, sometimes too much. But I'm starting to think the concerns were overblown based on his age, talent, consistent progress and effectiveness in a competitive setting.

As much as I value Suggs as a prospect, I worry that his lovable intangibles—effort, toughness, unselfishness, clutch play—can cloud judgement when it comes to assessing his skill level. His handle isn't the tightest, while his 33.7 three-point mark, low-volume attempts (3.5 per game) and bad misses have caused me to hesitate on his shooting projection.

Still, Suggs is well-rounded enough physically, fundamentally and mentally for a team to confidently take him top three. There is no scary hole in his game, and deeming him No. 2 behind Cunningham (like I had) remains acceptable. You can argue he's safer than Green, who doesn't offer Suggs' playmaking or defensive impact.

The team picking second probably can't go wrong with Green, Suggs or Mobley. Best team fit may ultimately be the deciding factor in which player has the best case

[cgf]

Ziaire is going to be such a steal for someone in a couple of years.

[jvsimonetti0514]

If he slides by doing nothing over the next few months then all of a sudden we have to question his impact? Either you like the guy or don't at this point... There's not really anything he can do to change his perception from a scouting perspective.

It’s weird cuz I’m pretty sure he’s said he’s a big Haliburton fan too. The mocks thought he could go as high as 4 and he ended up falling to 12. Stuff like that happens all the time and it’s not always a knock on the player.

I'm just hoping we don't go with who Leon wants after how crazy he was for Obi last year and wanting to trade up for him. He was too blinded by a kid that was putting out showtime dunks to see how stiff he was/is and how bad defensively he was/is.

Leave the drafting to W.Perrin, F.Zanin, B.Aller and whoever else they trust.

How do you know that Perrin and the boys weren’t in on the Obi pick as well? Obi was considered a top 5 pick the entire draft process right up to draft night. He was pretty much loved by all the draft journalist too. Zach Lowe thought his offense was good enough to first overall. You probably wouldn’t be able to find any scout that thought his offense wouldn’t translate. It seems like they’ve all been wrong. Sometimes it happens.

The NY post article made it pretty clear that WWW was the one pushing Quickley but no info of any dissent about Obi. I don’t think there’s any evidence that to suggest that he wasn’t liked by everyone yet. Maybe in the future we’ll get a leak suggestion otherwise but right now Obi is on the whole front office.

[Knicksfan1992]

If we're talking about the Baylor guys I think i'm Butler > Mitchell. To clarify I like both but I think Butler's offensive game has a chance to grow a little more in the NBA to where he can be an impact guy both on and off the ball.... I'm not completely sold that Mitchell has enough of a bag with the ball in his hands at his age to be an effective combo guard. I think his best career path is to be more like Marcus Smart and less like the popular media comparison of Donovan Mitchell.

[WargamesX]

Ziaire is going to be such a steal for someone in a couple of years.

Maybe his narrow shoulders and cam reddish game scares me, but I have been wrong before

[DOT]

It’s weird cuz I’m pretty sure he’s said he’s a big Haliburton fan too. The mocks thought he could go as high as 4 and he ended up falling to 12. Stuff like that happens all the time and it’s not always a knock on the player.

I'm just hoping we don't go with who Leon wants after how crazy he was for Obi last year and wanting to trade up for him. He was too blinded by a kid that was putting out showtime dunks to see how stiff he was/is and how bad defensively he was/is.

Leave the drafting to W.Perrin, F.Zanin, B.Aller and whoever else they trust.

How do you know that Perrin and the boys weren’t in on the Obi pick as well? Obi was considered a top 5 pick the entire draft process right up to draft night. He was pretty much loved by all the draft journalist too. Zach Lowe thought his offense was good enough to first overall. You probably wouldn’t be able to find any scout that thought his offense wouldn’t translate. It seems like they’ve all been wrong. Sometimes it happens.

The NY post article made it pretty clear that WWW was the one pushing Quickley but no info of any dissent about Obi. I don’t think there’s any evidence that to suggest that he wasn’t liked by everyone yet. Maybe in the future we’ll get a leak suggestion otherwise but right now Obi is on the whole front office.

Also the picture of Thibs celebrating right after the pick seems to indicate that's who he wanted too

Can't hit on every pick, and at the very least, we didn't miss out on a star after Obi (least not yet).

[Deeeez Knicks]

Even though he's older, I like Chris Duarte as a solid player. Can see us looking at him with a later pick especially since he should be more ready to play.

[jvsimonetti0514]

I'm just hoping we don't go with who Leon wants after how crazy he was for Obi last year and wanting to trade up for him. He was too blinded by a kid that was putting out showtime dunks to see how stiff he was/is and how bad defensively he was/is.

Leave the drafting to W.Perrin, F.Zanin, B.Aller and whoever else they trust.

How do you know that Perrin and the boys weren’t in on the Obi pick as well? Obi was considered a top 5 pick the entire draft process right up to draft night. He was pretty much loved by all the draft journalist too. Zach Lowe thought his offense was good enough to first overall. You probably wouldn’t be able to find any scout that thought his offense wouldn’t translate. It seems like they’ve all been wrong. Sometimes it happens.

The NY post article made it pretty clear that WWW was the one pushing Quickley but no info of any dissent about Obi. I don’t think there’s any evidence that to suggest that he wasn’t liked by everyone yet. Maybe in the future we’ll get a leak suggestion otherwise but right now Obi is on the whole front office.

Also the picture of Thibs celebrating right after the pick seems to indicate that's who he wanted too

Can't hit on every pick, and at the very least, we didn't miss out on a star after Obi (least not yet).

Also people keep forgetting how different last years draft process was cuz of the pandemic. You couldn’t meet with or work out a ton of guys. Does it really shock anyone that we went with the guy we had the most intel on?

I still wonder if the NCAA tournament happens, how much it would have really affected Obi’s stock. He was just okay against the good teams Dayton played last year and there coulda been a good chance of him getting exposed. I don’t want to write him off yet cuz Obi’s a late bloomer and since we had the bizarre offseason ever but we just need to hope with a more normal draft process the brain trust will do better.

[WargamesX]

Even though he's older, I like Chris Duarte as a solid player. Can see us looking at him with a later pick especially since he should be more ready to play.

I feel like we got stung drafting a older player in Obi and Duarte is actually older than Obi.

I think he would be older than RJ, Obi, Frank, and IQ.

[3toheadmelo]

I like Trey Murphy as a 3 and D guy. Reminds me of Deandre Hunter.

[Deeeez Knicks]

Even though he's older, I like Chris Duarte as a solid player. Can see us looking at him with a later pick especially since he should be more ready to play.

I feel like we got stung drafting a older player in Obi and Duarte is actually older than Obi.

I think he would be older than RJ, Obi, Frank, and IQ.

I didnt want to draft Obi at all, and age is a factor. But I also think you have to look at every situation differently.

Duarte looks like he's gonna be a solid 3D guy and that can be a good pick in the mid to late first. With 2 picks i dont mind taking 1 older guy and then maybe a high upside guy with the other pick.

[jvsimonetti0514]

I like Trey Murphy as a 3 and D guy. Reminds me of Deandre Hunter.

Wasserman has a little write about him in the link I posted above

[Deeeez Knicks]

I like Trey Murphy as a 3 and D guy. Reminds me of Deandre Hunter.

He can really shoot it. I like him too

[3toheadmelo]

I like Trey Murphy as a 3 and D guy. Reminds me of Deandre Hunter.

Wasserman has a little write about him in the link I posted above

seems like he is a fan too, lets see if murphy stays in the draft. if he does, i can see the knicks targeting him cause he can play immediately imo

[cgf]

Ziaire is going to be such a steal for someone in a couple of years.

Maybe his narrow shoulders and cam reddish game scares me, but I have been wrong before

He's skinny, but so were Durant, Ingram, George, and countless other long-wings. And I think he's pretty different from cam...though both had experience sharing the lead ballhandler role on their HS teams, creating for others with the ball in his hands was a lot more pivotal to cam's game than Ziaire's...which lead intothe biggest difference between the two of them, Cam would switch off when Zion or RJ were running the show, while Ziaire slips smoothly into an offball role. Plus Ziaire's stroke is better and he's better shooting off the dribble as well.

I get why people make that comp, but I view Ziaire very differently from the way I did Reddish or Knox.

[WargamesX]

Ziaire is going to be such a steal for someone in a couple of years.

Maybe his narrow shoulders and cam reddish game scares me, but I have been wrong before

He's skinny, but so were Durant, Ingram, George, and countless other long-wings. And I think he's pretty different from cam...though both had experience sharing the lead ballhandler role on their HS teams, creating for others with the ball in his hands was a lot more pivotal to cam's game than Ziaire's...which lead intothe biggest difference between the two of them, Cam would switch off when Zion or RJ were running the show, while Ziaire slips smoothly into an offball role. Plus Ziaire's stroke is better and he's better shooting off the dribble as well.

I get why people make that comp, but I view Ziaire very differently from the way I did Reddish or Knox.

That’s fair and I feel it’s been brought up before, I guess it’s the saying once bit, twice shy.