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2019-2020 College/Draft thread (Part 5) -LOTTO 8/25 DRAFT 10/15!

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Re: 2019-2020 College/Draft thread (Part 5) -LOTTO 8/25 DRAFT 10/15! 

Post#1961 » by moocow007 » Tue Jun 23, 2020 12:09 am

RHODEY wrote:
moocow007 wrote:
Deeeez Knicks wrote:
Its more the type of shots and where he took his shots. His game is going downhill and going to the rim. Taking shots in the paint. Our 2 best young players are Mitch and RJ and they also like to do that. Just not enough room for all of them. At least someone like Marcus Morris was scoring a lot from the perimeter and getting most of his buckets from outside. We just need more balance and perimeter scoring.


But they weren't near as skilled at it is the problem. And neither Barrett or Robinson had the shot creation ability to make up for the lack of anyone that can actually really execute an offense and create easy shots. That's why Randle went head down mode so much. He's not Lebron James but that's what they needed him to be. They needed him to score AND to create shots. That's not his ideal game. He's better off feeding off of someone else that can handle the ball, draw defenses and create openings for him to do his thing. He had none of that last season. It's the same thing people were complaining about with Carmelo Anthony. They didn't want him to take all the shots and instead wanted him to create for himself when they needed him to but also get everyone else involved and compensate for the lack of any real other shot creating point guards on the team...or basically they needed him to be Lebron James like. And when he couldn't (cause he's not that talented) everything was his fault and he's holding everyone else somehow back.


What do you think about these trades for Randle?


The same way how the trades (when Jackson was around) involving the ill fitting but still productive and valuable (to other teams) veteran players and how they ended up happening. It was the same type of mentality. Oh no one wants these crap players that can't help this team to where it needs to go or doesn't fit the direction of this team so let's take the first piece of crap we can get, dump them and thank the lucky stars that we pawned them off someone else.

Value is relative and involves 2 sides.

LOW END -----------------{middle}--------------HIGH END

Top tier front offices get the value closer to where they are asking (in this case HIGH END return for the Knicks). Bad front offices get the value closer to where the other team is asking (in this case LOW END return for the Knicks).

I said this back then (and folks argued it) and I'll say it now. Just because Julius Randle didn't do what we needed him to do and doesn't seem to fit with the direction of this team doesn't mean he's crap and you have to take whatever you can get for him. Just as Jackson didn't have to trade guys that the other teams were desperately looking for pennies, no reason for the Knicks to trade a talented 24 year old offensive player like Randle who is on a reasonable contract for nothing but to get rid of his contract.
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Re: 2019-2020 College/Draft thread (Part 5) -LOTTO 8/25 DRAFT 10/15! 

Post#1962 » by RHODEY » Tue Jun 23, 2020 12:12 am

moocow007 wrote:
RHODEY wrote:
moocow007 wrote:
But they weren't near as skilled at it is the problem. And neither Barrett or Robinson had the shot creation ability to make up for the lack of anyone that can actually really execute an offense and create easy shots. That's why Randle went head down mode so much. He's not Lebron James but that's what they needed him to be. They needed him to score AND to create shots. That's not his ideal game. He's better off feeding off of someone else that can handle the ball, draw defenses and create openings for him to do his thing. He had none of that last season. It's the same thing people were complaining about with Carmelo Anthony. They didn't want him to take all the shots and instead wanted him to create for himself when they needed him to but also get everyone else involved and compensate for the lack of any real other shot creating point guards on the team...or basically they needed him to be Lebron James like. And when he couldn't (cause he's not that talented) everything was his fault and he's holding everyone else somehow back.


What do you think about these trades for Randle?


The same way how the trades (when Jackson was around) involving the ill fitting but still productive and valuable (to other teams) veteran players and how they ended up happening. It was the same type of mentality. Oh no one wants these crap players that can't help this team to where it needs to go or doesn't fit the direction of this team so let's take the first piece of crap we can get, dump them and thank the lucky stars that we pawned them off someone else.

Value is relative and involves 2 sides.

I said this back then (and folks argued it) and I'll say it now. Just because Julius Randle didn't do what we needed him to do and doesn't seem to fit with the direction of this team doesn't mean he's crap and you have to take whatever you can get for him. Just as Jackson didn't have to trade guys that the other teams were desperately looking for pennies, no reason for the Knicks to trade a talented 24 year old offensive player like Randle who is on a reasonable contract for nothing but to get rid of his contract.


Understood, but I thought some of those trades included some interesting talent coming back to us. Namely, Oladipo and Derrick White...
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Re: 2019-2020 College/Draft thread (Part 5) -LOTTO 8/25 DRAFT 10/15! 

Post#1963 » by moocow007 » Tue Jun 23, 2020 12:14 am

RHODEY wrote:
moocow007 wrote:
RHODEY wrote:
What do you think about these trades for Randle?


The same way how the trades (when Jackson was around) involving the ill fitting but still productive and valuable (to other teams) veteran players and how they ended up happening. It was the same type of mentality. Oh no one wants these crap players that can't help this team to where it needs to go or doesn't fit the direction of this team so let's take the first piece of crap we can get, dump them and thank the lucky stars that we pawned them off someone else.

Value is relative and involves 2 sides.

I said this back then (and folks argued it) and I'll say it now. Just because Julius Randle didn't do what we needed him to do and doesn't seem to fit with the direction of this team doesn't mean he's crap and you have to take whatever you can get for him. Just as Jackson didn't have to trade guys that the other teams were desperately looking for pennies, no reason for the Knicks to trade a talented 24 year old offensive player like Randle who is on a reasonable contract for nothing but to get rid of his contract.


Understood, but I thought some of those trades includes some interesting talent coming back to us. Namely, Oladipo and Derrick White...


Oh I didn't see every trade. An Oladipo trade is risky on account of his health but he'd be the exact type of player that this team needs in one broad stroke (assuming he can get back to and remain healthy).

What was the trade?
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Re: 2019-2020 College/Draft thread (Part 5) -LOTTO 8/25 DRAFT 10/15! 

Post#1964 » by Deeeez Knicks » Tue Jun 23, 2020 12:15 am

moocow007 wrote:
Deeeez Knicks wrote:
moocow007 wrote:On Julius Randle and taking shots form other players...

Randle was 31st in the NBA in FG attempts per game even though he was technically the Knicks defacto no.1 option. And this was on a team where the only other consistent offensive player was Marcus Morris (who ended up being a bench player for the Clippers) and the team among the worst in offensive efficiency.


Its more the type of shots and where he took his shots. His game is going downhill and going to the rim. Taking shots in the paint. Our 2 best young players are Mitch and RJ and they also like to do that. Just not enough room for all of them. At least someone like Marcus Morris was scoring a lot from the perimeter and getting most of his buckets from outside. We just need more balance and perimeter scoring.


But they weren't near as skilled at it is the problem. And neither Barrett or Robinson had the shot creation ability to make up for the lack of anyone that can actually really execute an offense and create easy shots. That's why Randle went head down mode so much. He's not Lebron James but that's what they needed him to be. They needed him to score AND to create shots. That's not his ideal game. He's better off feeding off of someone else that can handle the ball, draw defenses and create openings for him to do his whirly twerly, shake and bake thing. He had none of that last season. It's the same thing people were complaining about with Carmelo Anthony. They didn't want him to take all the shots and instead wanted him to create for himself when they needed him to but also get everyone else involved and compensate for the lack of any real other shot creating point guards on the team...or basically they needed him to be Lebron James like. And when he couldn't (cause he's not that talented) everything was his fault and he's holding everyone else somehow back. Most teams have 2 top offensive players that can play off one another. The last time the Knicks had 2 players like that was what? 1973? They almost had it in 84 had Bernard King not blown out his knee. And unlike Carmelo who could at least hold his own as a solo act Randle isn't at that level. So he struggled, sometimes terribly. You get rid of him and unless you address the same problem they had last season AND get another more offensive skilled player in this team will struggle even more.


Without better perimeter playmakers we are in trouble either way. We are def missing pg play and a primary facilitator. Not Randles fault. But we need also better floor spacing/shooting/defense/passing too and Randles not a solution either.

Its an insult to melo to compare him to Randle. Randle is nowhere near that level. Randle is more of Al Harrington/Kanter. Hes not close to a hall of famer/ all star. Hes a role player with distinct strengths and flaws. On the right team Randle can help. On the wrong team he is a negative. Here he is a negative. His strengths aren't really things we need, and his flaws are things we need
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Re: 2019-2020 College/Draft thread (Part 5) -LOTTO 8/25 DRAFT 10/15! 

Post#1965 » by newyorker4ever » Tue Jun 23, 2020 12:25 am

Deeeez Knicks wrote:Deni feels like the guy the Warriors are really eyeing up if they keep the pick. Seems like he would be a great fit there.


Who wouldn't be a good fit with that team though? You have two super star players in S.Curry and K.Thompson who know they're super stars but don't have big ego's so they get along with everyone on the team and have no issue with anyone on the team being the best player on the court on any given night. They let KD come in and become the leading scorer and win the MVP's and all they cared about was winning. Because of those two the culture in GSW is the type of culture that anyone can go there and feel comfortable to play their own game.
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Re: 2019-2020 College/Draft thread (Part 5) -LOTTO 8/25 DRAFT 10/15! 

Post#1966 » by robillionaire » Tue Jun 23, 2020 12:26 am

moocow007 wrote:
RHODEY wrote:
moocow007 wrote:
But they weren't near as skilled at it is the problem. And neither Barrett or Robinson had the shot creation ability to make up for the lack of anyone that can actually really execute an offense and create easy shots. That's why Randle went head down mode so much. He's not Lebron James but that's what they needed him to be. They needed him to score AND to create shots. That's not his ideal game. He's better off feeding off of someone else that can handle the ball, draw defenses and create openings for him to do his thing. He had none of that last season. It's the same thing people were complaining about with Carmelo Anthony. They didn't want him to take all the shots and instead wanted him to create for himself when they needed him to but also get everyone else involved and compensate for the lack of any real other shot creating point guards on the team...or basically they needed him to be Lebron James like. And when he couldn't (cause he's not that talented) everything was his fault and he's holding everyone else somehow back.


What do you think about these trades for Randle?


The same way how the trades (when Jackson was around) involving the ill fitting but still productive and valuable (to other teams) veteran players and how they ended up happening. It was the same type of mentality. Oh no one wants these crap players that can't help this team to where it needs to go or doesn't fit the direction of this team so let's take the first piece of crap we can get, dump them and thank the lucky stars that we pawned them off someone else.

Value is relative and involves 2 sides.

LOW END -----------------{middle}--------------HIGH END

Top tier front offices get the value closer to where they are asking (in this case HIGH END return for the Knicks). Bad front offices get the value closer to where the other team is asking (in this case LOW END return for the Knicks).

I said this back then (and folks argued it) and I'll say it now. Just because Julius Randle didn't do what we needed him to do and doesn't seem to fit with the direction of this team doesn't mean he's crap and you have to take whatever you can get for him. Just as Jackson didn't have to trade guys that the other teams were desperately looking for pennies, no reason for the Knicks to trade a talented 24 year old offensive player like Randle who is on a reasonable contract for nothing but to get rid of his contract.


Well, what more do you think we could get for him? Maybe the hornets don’t want to give up on their former lottery pick for nothing either despite his struggles. I think Monk is a solid reclamation project. We probably aren’t even getting a late 1st, that’s what we got for Morris and Morris looked a lot better in terms of skills that can help a playoff team

I don’t think he’s crap and I don’t blame him for the problems of the team, I even said he might be a better fit and do better elsewhere. but if we are being honest his trade value is not going to be very high, and he’s shooting 27% from 3 which is not going to playable with our rookie contact guys and if we need to prioritize someone it will be them and not him. I’m actually a Randle fan, but that’s the reality of the situation.
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Re: 2019-2020 College/Draft thread (Part 5) -LOTTO 8/25 DRAFT 10/15! 

Post#1967 » by robillionaire » Tue Jun 23, 2020 12:28 am

Also Randle will be 26 when next season starts so let’s not fudge the numbers there
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Re: 2019-2020 College/Draft thread (Part 5) -LOTTO 8/25 DRAFT 10/15! 

Post#1968 » by 3toheadmelo » Tue Jun 23, 2020 12:28 am

Saddiq Bey looks like a Wesley Matthews clone. Wes was really good when he was in Portland. Hmm..
;t=200s
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Re: 2019-2020 College/Draft thread (Part 5) -LOTTO 8/25 DRAFT 10/15! 

Post#1969 » by newyorker4ever » Tue Jun 23, 2020 12:35 am

mpharris36 wrote:
HEZI wrote:
mpharris36 wrote:
i think that is fair.

But to be honest if you wanted a Cole or Kira...Deni would be a nice fit next to them.


He might be but we only have one lotto pick currently. If we could get another pick then it's something to consider.


I think you could technically trade back in if you wanted to the late lottery if you say moved the clippers pick and a dallas pick.


If actual NBA GM's are looking at this draft the way many of us are with it being weak especially at the top then this could be the perfect draft to trade up to get a late lottery pick or just outside the lottery. Now i'm not sure K.Lewis will make it anywhere around 11--16 but if he did and we can get up there by not having to give more then one future first round pick and then add DSJ with it and maybe a 2nd round pick then i'm all for it.
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Re: 2019-2020 College/Draft thread (Part 5) -LOTTO 8/25 DRAFT 10/15! 

Post#1970 » by Deeeez Knicks » Tue Jun 23, 2020 12:49 am

3toheadmelo wrote:Saddiq Bey looks like a Wesley Matthews clone. Wes was really good when he was in Portland. Hmm..
;t=200s


Bey is bigger, but looks like a lock to be a nice 3d player like that.
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Re: 2019-2020 College/Draft thread (Part 5) -LOTTO 8/25 DRAFT 10/15! 

Post#1971 » by mpharris36 » Tue Jun 23, 2020 12:53 am

Deeeez Knicks wrote:
3toheadmelo wrote:Saddiq Bey looks like a Wesley Matthews clone. Wes was really good when he was in Portland. Hmm..
;t=200s


Bey is bigger, but looks like a lock to be a nice 3d player like that.


Looks and plays like Robert Covington
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Re: 2019-2020 College/Draft thread (Part 5) -LOTTO 8/25 DRAFT 10/15! 

Post#1972 » by 3toheadmelo » Tue Jun 23, 2020 12:58 am

Deeeez Knicks wrote:
3toheadmelo wrote:Saddiq Bey looks like a Wesley Matthews clone. Wes was really good when he was in Portland. Hmm..
;t=200s


Bey is bigger, but looks like a lock to be a nice 3d player like that.

Yeah he is bigger than Wes. But it's not only the 3 and D aspect, Bey can post up smaller guards and attack the rim the same way Wes did
;t=155s
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Re: 2019-2020 College/Draft thread (Part 5) -LOTTO 8/25 DRAFT 10/15! 

Post#1973 » by Fat » Tue Jun 23, 2020 1:07 am

moocow007 wrote:
Naughtyfatboy wrote:Why dont yall like cole? He is more vanvleet with higher upside than another dennis smith. Its not the sexiest pick but i dont think its as bad as people make it seem.


I see Cole Anthony's upside as more of a post knee surgery Derrick Rose (he's nowhere near pre-knee issues DRose). Someone that can put up 17-18ppg as a shoot first offensive guard option (possibly off the bench as a top notch 6th man) but not someone that you really want to be running your team or being it's no.1 option.

My concern with Cole Anthony is not so much his game but his mentality and whether he'd be willing to potentially accept a lesser role (albeit an extremely productive role still) with an NBA team. Some HS and college alpha dogs can, other's cannot and they flame out. Dennis Smith Jr appears to be the later. Cole Anthony? Not sure. He has the talent to play in the NBA no doubt.

And this is not saying that you cannot have an offensive heavy starting point guard.

There are plenty of those right now. Lillard, Kyrie Irving, etc. But Cole Anthony is nowhere near these score heavy "point gods". He's not even in the much maligned group of scoring point guards like Stephon Marbury, Steve Francis and the like from a talent standpoint. He's not at any of those levels when it comes to being able to dominate as a lead option. That's my opinion. Could obviously end up being wrong but I do not see the explosiveness or the dominant skills that most everyone of these top tier scoring points have. Just don't. I didn't even when he was in high school and getting hyped before the latest knee injury.

In the later part of the lottery would I be thrilled to draft a potential top tier 6th man? Absolutely. Would that be what I'd be looking for in the top 6? Not really. I would not consider Cole Anthony until at or after pick 10.


Who at 6 in this draft would you want running your team as a #1 option though I don’t think you can pick any of these guys and ask them to be that

I think he would be perfectly fine playing a lesser role if he had to and he doesnt look bothered playing off ball. He has proven he can be a catch and shoot player off ball. He overall shot 35% from 3 this season on high volume shooting and 40% on catch and shoot situations. If he wasn’t an aggressive scorer for NC that team would of had a very hard time putting points on the board.

The role he had to play for his team puts a black cloud over him. Idk I feel he’s gone from overrated to underrated at this point. I’d still easily take him at 6 In this draft. You won’t find another point guard in this range that is a proven on ball scorer and an effective off ball shooter.

Not sold on him being a bad plAymaker either I think he can be an average-good one nothing elite or fancy though. There are plenty of NC plays where his team simply did not convert on the passes that’s not coles fault.
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Re: 2019-2020 College/Draft thread (Part 5) -LOTTO 8/25 DRAFT 10/15! 

Post#1974 » by Deeeez Knicks » Tue Jun 23, 2020 1:10 am

newyorker4ever wrote:
Deeeez Knicks wrote:Deni feels like the guy the Warriors are really eyeing up if they keep the pick. Seems like he would be a great fit there.


Who wouldn't be a good fit with that team though? You have two super star players in S.Curry and K.Thompson who know they're super stars but don't have big ego's so they get along with everyone on the team and have no issue with anyone on the team being the best player on the court on any given night. They let KD come in and become the leading scorer and win the MVP's and all they cared about was winning. Because of those two the culture in GSW is the type of culture that anyone can go there and feel comfortable to play their own game.


A lot of players would fit there, but GS does look similar to the Spurs in that they look for players that fit there system /style/identity. If they could get a Durant or view someone as a future franchise player they probably dont pass that up. KD bought in and fit anyway. But there's probably not a Durant in this draft so i see them looking more for fit...just a guess. They could really go in any direction.
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Re: 2019-2020 College/Draft thread (Part 5) -LOTTO 8/25 DRAFT 10/15! 

Post#1975 » by Deeeez Knicks » Tue Jun 23, 2020 1:15 am

3toheadmelo wrote:
Deeeez Knicks wrote:
3toheadmelo wrote:Saddiq Bey looks like a Wesley Matthews clone. Wes was really good when he was in Portland. Hmm..
;t=200s


Bey is bigger, but looks like a lock to be a nice 3d player like that.

Yeah he is bigger than Wes. But it's not only the 3 and D aspect, Bey can post up smaller guards and attack the rim the same way Wes did
;t=155s


Yea, i could see that.
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Re: 2019-2020 College/Draft thread (Part 5) -LOTTO 8/25 DRAFT 10/15! 

Post#1976 » by RHODEY » Tue Jun 23, 2020 1:18 am

moocow007 wrote:
RHODEY wrote:
moocow007 wrote:
The same way how the trades (when Jackson was around) involving the ill fitting but still productive and valuable (to other teams) veteran players and how they ended up happening. It was the same type of mentality. Oh no one wants these crap players that can't help this team to where it needs to go or doesn't fit the direction of this team so let's take the first piece of crap we can get, dump them and thank the lucky stars that we pawned them off someone else.

Value is relative and involves 2 sides.

I said this back then (and folks argued it) and I'll say it now. Just because Julius Randle didn't do what we needed him to do and doesn't seem to fit with the direction of this team doesn't mean he's crap and you have to take whatever you can get for him. Just as Jackson didn't have to trade guys that the other teams were desperately looking for pennies, no reason for the Knicks to trade a talented 24 year old offensive player like Randle who is on a reasonable contract for nothing but to get rid of his contract.


Understood, but I thought some of those trades includes some interesting talent coming back to us. Namely, Oladipo and Derrick White...


Oh I didn't see every trade. An Oladipo trade is risky on account of his health but he'd be the exact type of player that this team needs in one broad stroke (assuming he can get back to and remain healthy).

What was the trade?


The Vid was removed - but you can see it in the trade thread . Here are the all the trades that were proposed:

trade one Oladipo for Randle, Iggy and the 2021 Dallas Pick
trade two Cody Zeller for Randle
trade three Aaron Gordon for Randle
Trade four Gary Harris and a 20121 pick for Randle
Trade Five Patty Mills, Trey Lyles, Derrick White for Randle.
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Re: 2019-2020 College/Draft thread (Part 5) -LOTTO 8/25 DRAFT 10/15! 

Post#1977 » by HEZI » Tue Jun 23, 2020 1:26 am

Randle gotta go

It's that simple
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Re: 2019-2020 College/Draft thread (Part 5) -LOTTO 8/25 DRAFT 10/15! 

Post#1978 » by robillionaire » Tue Jun 23, 2020 1:30 am

HEZI wrote:Randle gotta go

It's that simple


Actually making it happen might not be that simple though
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Re: 2019-2020 College/Draft thread (Part 5) -LOTTO 8/25 DRAFT 10/15! 

Post#1979 » by HEZI » Tue Jun 23, 2020 1:36 am

robillionaire wrote:
HEZI wrote:Randle gotta go

It's that simple


Actually making it happen might not be that simple though


If he was really a hot commodity then it shouldn't be a problem but who wants him? Nobody is lining up to trade for him so that tells us all we need to know about him. So yeah getting rid of him won't be simple, unless they just waive his ass
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Re: 2019-2020 College/Draft thread (Part 5) -LOTTO 8/25 DRAFT 10/15! 

Post#1980 » by Fat » Tue Jun 23, 2020 1:43 am

mpharris36 wrote:
Mecca wrote:
mpharris36 wrote:
The Randle for Batum trade has been discussed for a while now on this board. I think most would be ok with this basic framework...I personally want nothing to do with Monk.



I haven’t been on the board outside of BAF tbh. But, I get it. He’s an undersized ball stopper that likes coke, but he got hot the month prior to the suspension / stoppage. Still think there’s a world where he’s a 17 PPG 6th man on a winning team. Frank/Monk would be a lot better than Frank/DSJ


oh I think DSJ is gone too. But I personally just don't want Monk.

Just draft Desmond Bane at 27 who's a better player and had his head on straight than Monk.

Just do Randle for Batum + 2nd rounder. Call it a day.


I’m hoping for Desmond bane at 27 too I wouldn’t be shocked if a playoff team scoops him up before 27 though. I wouldn’t mind Isiah joe as an Alternative if it happened. There no way you can walk out without picking up a shooter in this draft if your the Knicks
Baf: Heat Culture

Brandin Podziemski |Ayo Dosunmu | Shead
Devin Booker | Isaac Okoro | Dru Smith
Demar Derozan | Harrison Barnes | Highsmith
Karl Towns | Jabari Smith Jr
Brook Lopez | Luke Kornet | Achiuwa

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