Linsane defense. Analyzing our D versus Bucks(long gif fun).

[Knicks80_20]

How do you count it when a player plays tough defense, yet he still gets scored on? Shouldn't you take that into consideration? This is why D is hard to put into statistics, a player can play great D, and still allow 20-25 points depending on the offensive player.

Points allowed, especially if you're talking about guards, can be skewed higher if no help defense is forthcoming.

[prophet_of_rage]

I do think your sense of humor is broken. The only one that actually comes close to me trying to break down a play seriously is Lin's steal. The rest of the breakdowns are...there are so many things wrong with what's going on on those plays, I really don't think they require an explanation. I think everyone gets there was no way in hell Amare was ever going to get back in time to stop that play unless that dude was going wait for him Watching him try and not even attempt a block...

It's not broken, but I don't think you're joking. You make several points about Lin every game and why he's the best thing since sliced bread and Melo and Amar'e won't work with him. But the Knicks as a whole are a mess. I watch this board rally around simplistic explanations about who's to blame when there's a team philosophy that is horribly bad from the outset.

We're stuck in a bastardised system where we play SSOL defence without SSOL offence. We need a real basketball system and this will keep happening until the system is fixed.

[BBAL]

I do think your sense of humor is broken. The only one that actually comes close to me trying to break down a play seriously is Lin's steal. The rest of the breakdowns are...there are so many things wrong with what's going on on those plays, I really don't think they require an explanation. I think everyone gets there was no way in hell Amare was ever going to get back in time to stop that play unless that dude was going wait for him Watching him try and not even attempt a block...

It's not broken, but I don't think you're joking. You make several points about Lin every game and why he's the best thing since sliced bread and Melo and Amar'e won't work with him. But the Knicks as a whole are a mess. I watch this board rally around simplistic explanations about who's to blame when there's a team philosophy that is horribly bad from the outset.

We're stuck in a bastardised system where we play SSOL defence without SSOL offence. We need a real basketball system and this will keep happening until the system is fixed.

If you don't think I'm joking then, trust me, it's broken.

Here you want a serious explanation?


First watch the gif the other poster re-posted at the top of the page...

Same type of mistakes, and yes JR is obviously the first one to screw up here. We're repeating the same stupid mistakes as a team.


1. JR should NEVER do that. It is NEVER ok to do that. Even if Stat was there....
2. That play took awhile to develop so the fact JR doesn't know Stat's not there, is mind numbing. His court awareness is beyond laughable.
3. Stat is 100% out of position and does this knowingly. I didn't want to make the gif an hour long but before he starts that run, Stat decides to come out for no reason mid-court to try to double team when there's absolutely no reason to double team there, thus leaving his man open who ends up dunking on us. He also should never attempt running back from 40 feet to defend that.
4. Melo should have taken the underneath route and helped Fields underneath. Instead he actually helps his defender out and give him a clear look at the basket as well. Perhaps he's trying to draw a foul, because he realizes the play is a complete breakdown but the ref's not looking. Notice, how both JR & Melo literally pull away from the middle and together combine to open up the middle FOR the attacker.
5. Fields should have contested the dunk, perhaps even drew a charge. So should have JR initially.
6. Fields doesn't go up for a block because it does look like Stat's trying to do the same thing and his angle would have resulted in colliding with Stat in mid-air. So I guess they decided to play safe and they both give up on the play.
7. The result is a complete and total breakdown of our interior defense with absolutely nobody even attempting to slow him down. In fact, we would have had better defense if everyone just literally stood still and a 3 second violation saves us from making the ESPN highlight reel. He would have at least had to go...around JR, thus maybe fumbling his dribble and we could have gotten lucky.

It's not just one guy. It's EVERYBODY.

As it stands this is so bad that I would say we should call the FBI to have them look into us throwing games, but teams who purposely throw games, don't make it this obvious. But really, at some point of watching our guys repeatedly getting out of the way and clearing paths for defenders we have to ask if we're being taken for a ride. This was so bad, it looks scripted.

[prophet_of_rage]

It looks like the double team was on a screen and roll and they blitzed the ballhandler to get the ball out of Jennings hands. I don't understand the JR Smith decision other than SSOL defence requires you to play your man straight up so he recovers to his guy and so does Melo. It might also explain why Fields doesn't step up.

Given that they are actually a top 10 defence it must mean that they were doing what was iunstructed of them. It is a problem with the system.

[TKF]

nice breakdown...

[gelek]

Seriously had to lol when reading these. Really loved it. Of course its value as an analysis tool is questionable but the dialogue is really great. Especially the way you characterize the players and their thought process. I think my favourite one is between Fields and Stat with Stat just hurrying back to check in the ball.

What's this supposed to be? A serious discussion? You're trying too hard being funny with those made-up dialogues.

That being said, you logic is flawed. Lin and Baron having high numbers on your so-called "efficiency" ranks is heavily affected from playing against guards. As you know, they are the ones handling the ball and creating plays. There is also a reason why bigs have higher FG%. Guards missing shots means not necessarily good D by our guards.
Besides, in a system where our team is forced to switch by this awful system, our bigs often end up facing guards and get exposed most of the time. Chandler and Stat would have looked as bad as Jorts on that play. Jeffreys may be be the only exception.

Bottom line, Knicks and Bucks played miserable defense. Team defense as well as man to man defense. There was no bright spot on neither team. No matter how hard you try to glorify Lin's D. This game was hard to watch from a defensive pov.

I agree with you point that if this were a serious discussion then at the same frequency guards would have it easier to get higher "efficiency". But you kinda contradict yourself when you're then stating that it's unfair for bigs to have to defend guards. Also in this particular game it felt like the guards were shooting way more than the post players which would balance out the lower shooting averages.

[Nono]

Nice post.

[adrenaLINe]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFmaY7oJ5nM&feature=player_embedded#!

[jlin17]

they should try zone defense

[airchibundo507]

I do think your sense of humor is broken. The only one that actually comes close to me trying to break down a play seriously is Lin's steal. The rest of the breakdowns are...there are so many things wrong with what's going on on those plays, I really don't think they require an explanation. I think everyone gets there was no way in hell Amare was ever going to get back in time to stop that play unless that dude was going wait for him Watching him try and not even attempt a block...

It's not broken, but I don't think you're joking. You make several points about Lin every game and why he's the best thing since sliced bread and Melo and Amar'e won't work with him. But the Knicks as a whole are a mess. I watch this board rally around simplistic explanations about who's to blame when there's a team philosophy that is horribly bad from the outset.

We're stuck in a bastardised system where we play SSOL defence without SSOL offence. We need a real basketball system and this will keep happening until the system is fixed.

If you don't think I'm joking then, trust me, it's broken.

Here you want a serious explanation?


First watch the gif the other poster re-posted at the top of the page...

Same type of mistakes, and yes JR is obviously the first one to screw up here. We're repeating the same stupid mistakes as a team.


1. JR should NEVER do that. It is NEVER ok to do that. Even if Stat was there....
2. That play took awhile to develop so the fact JR doesn't know Stat's not there, is mind numbing. His court awareness is beyond laughable.
3. Stat is 100% out of position and does this knowingly. I didn't want to make the gif an hour long but before he starts that run, Stat decides to come out for no reason mid-court to try to double team when there's absolutely no reason to double team there, thus leaving his man open who ends up dunking on us. He also should never attempt running back from 40 feet to defend that.
4. Melo should have taken the underneath route and helped Fields underneath. Instead he actually helps his defender out and give him a clear look at the basket as well. Perhaps he's trying to draw a foul, because he realizes the play is a complete breakdown but the ref's not looking. Notice, how both JR & Melo literally pull away from the middle and together combine to open up the middle FOR the attacker.
5. Fields should have contested the dunk, perhaps even drew a charge. So should have JR initially.
6. Fields doesn't go up for a block because it does look like Stat's trying to do the same thing and his angle would have resulted in colliding with Stat in mid-air. So I guess they decided to play safe and they both give up on the play.
7. The result is a complete and total breakdown of our interior defense with absolutely nobody even attempting to slow him down. In fact, we would have had better defense if everyone just literally stood still and a 3 second violation saves us from making the ESPN highlight reel. He would have at least had to go...around JR, thus maybe fumbling his dribble and we could have gotten lucky.

It's not just one guy. It's EVERYBODY.

As it stands this is so bad that I would say we should call the FBI to have them look into us throwing games, but teams who purposely throw games, don't make it this obvious. But really, at some point of watching our guys repeatedly getting out of the way and clearing paths for defenders we have to ask if we're being taken for a ride. This was so bad, it looks scripted.

The help defense is non-existent. However, clearly most of the blame goes to Amare for overplaying the pick and roll with a weak ass double team and putting the rest of the team in a 4 vs 3 match-up. And with how hot the Bucks were shooting from downtown, I don't entirely blame JR for trying to deny a three point bucket.

[NYKey]

Good post. Now, how many of us miss Jared Jeffries?

[adrenaLINe]

I do think your sense of humor is broken. The only one that actually comes close to me trying to break down a play seriously is Lin's steal. The rest of the breakdowns are...there are so many things wrong with what's going on on those plays, I really don't think they require an explanation. I think everyone gets there was no way in hell Amare was ever going to get back in time to stop that play unless that dude was going wait for him Watching him try and not even attempt a block...

It's not broken, but I don't think you're joking. You make several points about Lin every game and why he's the best thing since sliced bread and Melo and Amar'e won't work with him. But the Knicks as a whole are a mess. I watch this board rally around simplistic explanations about who's to blame when there's a team philosophy that is horribly bad from the outset.

We're stuck in a bastardised system where we play SSOL defence without SSOL offence. We need a real basketball system and this will keep happening until the system is fixed.

If you don't think I'm joking then, trust me, it's broken.

Here you want a serious explanation?


First watch the gif the other poster re-posted at the top of the page...

Same type of mistakes, and yes JR is obviously the first one to screw up here. We're repeating the same stupid mistakes as a team.


1. JR should NEVER do that. It is NEVER ok to do that. Even if Stat was there....
2. That play took awhile to develop so the fact JR doesn't know Stat's not there, is mind numbing. His court awareness is beyond laughable.
3. Stat is 100% out of position and does this knowingly. I didn't want to make the gif an hour long but before he starts that run, Stat decides to come out for no reason mid-court to try to double team when there's absolutely no reason to double team there, thus leaving his man open who ends up dunking on us. He also should never attempt running back from 40 feet to defend that.
4. Melo should have taken the underneath route and helped Fields underneath. Instead he actually helps his defender out and give him a clear look at the basket as well. Perhaps he's trying to draw a foul, because he realizes the play is a complete breakdown but the ref's not looking. Notice, how both JR & Melo literally pull away from the middle and together combine to open up the middle FOR the attacker.
5. Fields should have contested the dunk, perhaps even drew a charge. So should have JR initially.
6. Fields doesn't go up for a block because it does look like Stat's trying to do the same thing and his angle would have resulted in colliding with Stat in mid-air. So I guess they decided to play safe and they both give up on the play.
7. The result is a complete and total breakdown of our interior defense with absolutely nobody even attempting to slow him down. In fact, we would have had better defense if everyone just literally stood still and a 3 second violation saves us from making the ESPN highlight reel. He would have at least had to go...around JR, thus maybe fumbling his dribble and we could have gotten lucky.

It's not just one guy. It's EVERYBODY.

As it stands this is so bad that I would say we should call the FBI to have them look into us throwing games, but teams who purposely throw games, don't make it this obvious. But really, at some point of watching our guys repeatedly getting out of the way and clearing paths for defenders we have to ask if we're being taken for a ride. This was so bad, it looks scripted.

I dont think this play was Amare's fault he was helping to double team...

JR should have never left the man with the ball especially when Amare was caught doubling down

[adrenaLINe]

man all these defensive Gaffs are just killing them..

btw in that play...

Melo had to assume JR would stay on the ball

so he should have stayed between his man and the net...

and only fight to get to the wing if the ball is passed too it...

he should know by now... had no other option...but that

[flowflow99]

Video number one. We have steve Novak forcing the ball handler sideline baseline away from the basket. Ballhandler pump fakes. Novak bites on the fake and tries not to foul. He lands and the shooter makes a contested jump shot. No middle penetration. No rotation necessary by the defence. Breakdown in individual discipline by the defender to bite on the fake but a contested pull up isn't a bad shot to give up.

Harrelson, not Novak, biting on the fake. But yeah I wouldn't fault Novak. He's covering his guy on the perimeter and is actually in the best spot out of everyone to get a rebound.

Lin is a better defender than he gets credit for being on this board. The Warriors last year played worse defense than the Knicks this year believe it or not. Pretty much the only guys who consistently played D were Lin and Udoh, the rookies. Before he got waived, Monte and Curry were telling people Lin's role the next year wouldn't be to score, but to come in and provide instant defense.

And I agree with the guy who said Amare needs to learn how to hedge. If a PG could beat a hard pick 100% of the time, the PnR would be worthless.

[yaboynyp]

It's not broken, but I don't think you're joking. You make several points about Lin every game and why he's the best thing since sliced bread and Melo and Amar'e won't work with him. But the Knicks as a whole are a mess. I watch this board rally around simplistic explanations about who's to blame when there's a team philosophy that is horribly bad from the outset.

We're stuck in a bastardised system where we play SSOL defence without SSOL offence. We need a real basketball system and this will keep happening until the system is fixed.

If you don't think I'm joking then, trust me, it's broken.

Here you want a serious explanation?


First watch the gif the other poster re-posted at the top of the page...

Same type of mistakes, and yes JR is obviously the first one to screw up here. We're repeating the same stupid mistakes as a team.


1. JR should NEVER do that. It is NEVER ok to do that. Even if Stat was there....
2. That play took awhile to develop so the fact JR doesn't know Stat's not there, is mind numbing. His court awareness is beyond laughable.
3. Stat is 100% out of position and does this knowingly. I didn't want to make the gif an hour long but before he starts that run, Stat decides to come out for no reason mid-court to try to double team when there's absolutely no reason to double team there, thus leaving his man open who ends up dunking on us. He also should never attempt running back from 40 feet to defend that.
4. Melo should have taken the underneath route and helped Fields underneath. Instead he actually helps his defender out and give him a clear look at the basket as well. Perhaps he's trying to draw a foul, because he realizes the play is a complete breakdown but the ref's not looking. Notice, how both JR & Melo literally pull away from the middle and together combine to open up the middle FOR the attacker.
5. Fields should have contested the dunk, perhaps even drew a charge. So should have JR initially.
6. Fields doesn't go up for a block because it does look like Stat's trying to do the same thing and his angle would have resulted in colliding with Stat in mid-air. So I guess they decided to play safe and they both give up on the play.
7. The result is a complete and total breakdown of our interior defense with absolutely nobody even attempting to slow him down. In fact, we would have had better defense if everyone just literally stood still and a 3 second violation saves us from making the ESPN highlight reel. He would have at least had to go...around JR, thus maybe fumbling his dribble and we could have gotten lucky.

It's not just one guy. It's EVERYBODY.

As it stands this is so bad that I would say we should call the FBI to have them look into us throwing games, but teams who purposely throw games, don't make it this obvious. But really, at some point of watching our guys repeatedly getting out of the way and clearing paths for defenders we have to ask if we're being taken for a ride. This was so bad, it looks scripted.

I dont think this play was Amare's fault he was helping to double team...

JR should have never left the man with the ball especially when Amare was caught doubling down

Yeah it’s pretty obvious they were trapping Jennings to get it out of his hand. That being said Stat is supposed to sprint back not fast jog like he is.

Ultimately this is on JR though. In basketball you always try and force the team to make the extra pass. JR needed to pick up ball and force him to make a decision to either pass or try and take JR 1 on 1. The fact that he left the ball handler to guard the 3 line is what caused the breakdown. You never leave the guy with the ball for a guy who doesn’t have it because you have to have the ball to score.

Melo and Landry had nothing to do with it. Melo was fighting over his man to get the shooter if Gooden drove and kicked which is the proper play on his part. Landry was staying attached to his man but was shading also the proper play plus he’s below the circle so he could not take a charge...

[kinein]

Great breakdown totally loved it!

Harrellson should never have been allowed to step on the floor.

He's 40lbs over-weight does not look like his "media" pics at all - the guy was busy feasting for the last few months and I guess D'antoni didn't notice the guy BEASTING it out @ the Dinner Table.

Lumbering and Clumbering !!! Jumps early because now that he's got so much gravity sucking fat - he can't react fast enough so he tries to over-compensate early.

[finesse185]

weres videos of lin defense on tony parker lol lin cant play no fing d

[RoadRunner]

This is a perfect example of stats being used the wrong way, which neglect many other aspects of the game.

Your stats show Harrelson as giving up the most points in 1 v 1 play, yet this man is probably the only person on the knicks who actually boxes out and prevents many many easy rebounds and putback attempts that Amare, Melo and the rest easily give up.

Amare himself probably gives up 15-20 points a game by not boxing out, and giving the opposing team a chance to either tipback immediately, or get an offensive rebound and finish off a second chance attempt.

Harrelson probably gives up no tipbacks or offensive rebounds to the opposing team when he's in.

Guys... The entire problem with the knicks right now as people are looking at the knicks individually and trying to see who is the weakest link. But we are quick to forget that during the Linsane winning streak the players on the floor all played within the concept of team defense and team basketball. Stop wasting time looking at these individual stats that are meaningless and start realizing that the reason we are losing games is because the current knicks squad doesn't give 3-shits about the intangibles of the game that are necessary to winning.

Name all the Knicks players who actually care about the intangibles of fundamental basketball, and i'll give you a starting Knicks squad that can win us games.

[jlin22]

weres videos of lin defense on tony parker lol lin cant play no fing d

i read somewhere recently about a handful of arenas having special camera to accurately track player movement, speed, etc. Tony Parker was by far the fastest point guard, exceeding 20mph at times. That might have something to do with Lin's "inability" to guard Parker. You have to put shumpert or smith against these fast PGs.

[bornaknick1]

Cool where is the analysis for Lin against the Mavs, Celtics, Heat, Spurs, Nets, Sixer?