Charles Oakley on the knicks

[ORANGEandBLUE]

I'm not really holding out any hope for Stat and Melo to develop any sort of synergy where one is setting up the other for shots or anything. As long as they can hit their damn jump shots and stop barreling into 3 defenders in the paint, we can compete with most teams.

[HarthorneWingo]

Everything Oakley said is true. That won't prevent people from saying he's butthurt because Knicks won't hire him.

i agree with his comments in regards to defined roles. that is huge. MDA never did that. woodson did when he took over. provides a better hierarchy.

In fairness to D'Antoni, he had so many roster changes on his teams as the Knicks tried to get under the cap. And last year was a strike shortened year with no training camp and revolving door of inadequate PGs until Lin came along and then there was the chemistry issue and then he got hurt.

So let's not re-write history just for the sake of sticking another knife in Mike.

But Oak was right on the money with his comments about roles. I hope Woodson is on top of it.

[knicksnyk]

Everything Oakley said is true. That won't prevent people from saying he's butthurt because Knicks won't hire him.

i agree with his comments in regards to defined roles. that is huge. MDA never did that. woodson did when he took over. provides a better hierarchy.

In fairness to D'Antoni, he had so many roster changes on his teams as the Knicks tried to get under the cap. And last year was a strike shortened year with no training camp and revolving door of inadequate PGs until Lin came along and then there was the chemistry issue and then he got hurt.

So let's not re-write history just for the sake of sticking another knife in Mike.

But Oak was right on the money with his comments about roles. I hope Woodson is on top of it.

i am not rewriting history nor am i sticking a knife in MDA. I liked him a lot and i applauded him for stepping down and defending melo twice at the olympics. mda could have easily gone off on melo but he didnt he kept quiet. i was talking about his system which gives everyone a liscence to score. his system unfortunately didnt fit with the current structure of our roster. notice how once woodson took over he imposed a hierarchy in terms of scoring. melo first, amare second lin 3rd. mda wasn't like that. that is all i meant.

[Thugger HBC]

i am not rewriting history nor am i sticking a knife in MDA. I liked him a lot and i applauded him for stepping down and defending melo twice at the olympics. mda could have easily gone off on melo but he didnt he kept quiet. i was talking about his system which gives everyone a liscence to score. his system unfortunately didnt fit with the current structure of our roster. notice how once woodson took over he imposed a hierarchy in terms of scoring. melo first, amare second lin 3rd. mda wasn't like that. that is all i meant.

I can't believe I'm actually gonna defend D'antoni, but the "equal opportunity shot" offense claim is false.

His best guys have always gotten their shots first, whether with Nash or here.

The rest of the shots were determined by the open shot predicated by good ball movement, usually early in the clock so the defense can't set.

I agree the pieces didn't fit his system, but that's due to the players own efficiency and not the system itself.

D'antoni's offense wasn't the issue at all.

[knicksnyk]

i am not rewriting history nor am i sticking a knife in MDA. I liked him a lot and i applauded him for stepping down and defending melo twice at the olympics. mda could have easily gone off on melo but he didnt he kept quiet. i was talking about his system which gives everyone a liscence to score. his system unfortunately didnt fit with the current structure of our roster. notice how once woodson took over he imposed a hierarchy in terms of scoring. melo first, amare second lin 3rd. mda wasn't like that. that is all i meant.

I can't believe I'm actually gonna defend D'antoni, but the "equal opportunity shot" offense claim is false.

His best guys have always gotten their shots first, whether with Nash or here.

The rest of the shots were determined by the open shot predicated by good ball movement, usually early in the clock so the defense can't set.

I agree the pieces didn't fit his system, but that's due to the players own efficiency and not the system itself.
D'antoni's offense wasn't the issue at all.

I never said his offense was the issue. I dont take issue with his offense. I just said his offense did not fit our team.

also woodson imposed a little more "structure" to the offense. woodson still had 6 guys in double digits during that first 7 game stretch where everyone was healthy. but melo was the first offensive option followed by amare and then lin. that seemed to fit better with the roster.

[Thugger HBC]

i am not rewriting history nor am i sticking a knife in MDA. I liked him a lot and i applauded him for stepping down and defending melo twice at the olympics. mda could have easily gone off on melo but he didnt he kept quiet. i was talking about his system which gives everyone a liscence to score. his system unfortunately didnt fit with the current structure of our roster. notice how once woodson took over he imposed a hierarchy in terms of scoring. melo first, amare second lin 3rd. mda wasn't like that. that is all i meant.

I can't believe I'm actually gonna defend D'antoni, but the "equal opportunity shot" offense claim is false.

His best guys have always gotten their shots first, whether with Nash or here.

The rest of the shots were determined by the open shot predicated by good ball movement, usually early in the clock so the defense can't set.

I agree the pieces didn't fit his system, but that's due to the players own efficiency and not the system itself.
D'antoni's offense wasn't the issue at all.

I never said his offense was the issue. I dont take issue with his offense. I just said his offense did not fit our team.

also woodson imposed a little more "structure" to the offense. woodson still had 6 guys in double digits during that first 7 game stretch where everyone was healthy. but melo was the first offensive option followed by amare and then lin. that seemed to fit better with the roster.

You said his offense gives everyone a license to score.

That is not true, but i agreed with most of the rest.

[HarthorneWingo]

i agree with his comments in regards to defined roles. that is huge. MDA never did that. woodson did when he took over. provides a better hierarchy.

In fairness to D'Antoni, he had so many roster changes on his teams as the Knicks tried to get under the cap. And last year was a strike shortened year with no training camp and revolving door of inadequate PGs until Lin came along and then there was the chemistry issue and then he got hurt.

So let's not re-write history just for the sake of sticking another knife in Mike.

But Oak was right on the money with his comments about roles. I hope Woodson is on top of it.

i am not rewriting history nor am i sticking a knife in MDA. I liked him a lot and i applauded him for stepping down and defending melo twice at the olympics. mda could have easily gone off on melo but he didnt he kept quiet. i was talking about his system which gives everyone a liscence to score. his system unfortunately didnt fit with the current structure of our roster. notice how once woodson took over he imposed a hierarchy in terms of scoring. melo first, amare second lin 3rd. mda wasn't like that. that is all i meant.

Sorry, if I mistook your post. A lot of MDA bashing goes on around here.

I just think that part of it was the roster changes/injuries/strike season and, second, Mike's system, which ran or was supposed to run a lot of PnRs, was designed to get players a lot of open looks - be it the picker or someone coming of another screen. Felton did a commendable job doing that the first time he was here and then he got traded. Chauncey really wasn't an MDA PG - because he wasn't a great passer or quick decision maker. And last year was a mess because we started the season without a PG; then Lin came along ... yada yada.

[HarthorneWingo]

i am not rewriting history nor am i sticking a knife in MDA. I liked him a lot and i applauded him for stepping down and defending melo twice at the olympics. mda could have easily gone off on melo but he didnt he kept quiet. i was talking about his system which gives everyone a liscence to score. his system unfortunately didnt fit with the current structure of our roster. notice how once woodson took over he imposed a hierarchy in terms of scoring. melo first, amare second lin 3rd. mda wasn't like that. that is all i meant.

I can't believe I'm actually gonna defend D'antoni, but the "equal opportunity shot" offense claim is false.

His best guys have always gotten their shots first, whether with Nash or here.

The rest of the shots were determined by the open shot predicated by good ball movement, usually early in the clock so the defense can't set.

I agree the pieces didn't fit his system, but that's due to the players own efficiency and not the system itself.

D'antoni's offense wasn't the issue at all.

Thugger is right again.

[ORANGEandBLUE]

i am not rewriting history nor am i sticking a knife in MDA. I liked him a lot and i applauded him for stepping down and defending melo twice at the olympics. mda could have easily gone off on melo but he didnt he kept quiet. i was talking about his system which gives everyone a liscence to score. his system unfortunately didnt fit with the current structure of our roster. notice how once woodson took over he imposed a hierarchy in terms of scoring. melo first, amare second lin 3rd. mda wasn't like that. that is all i meant.

I can't believe I'm actually gonna defend D'antoni, but the "equal opportunity shot" offense claim is false.

His best guys have always gotten their shots first, whether with Nash or here.

The rest of the shots were determined by the open shot predicated by good ball movement, usually early in the clock so the defense can't set.

I agree the pieces didn't fit his system, but that's due to the players own efficiency and not the system itself.

D'antoni's offense wasn't the issue at all.

That's where I disagree. I saw a lot of shots early in the shot-clock against set defenses. If you're gonna take the hit on defense you get with Melo and Amare, you need to make a concerted effort to get them the ball early and often, even if it means taking away green lights for the likes of Fields and Douglas.

[thebuzzardman]

I think it's basically correct. But we know that Stat and Melo aren't creators. At least I do. I think that was more Oakley's point, in terms of "making others better".

These are guys who need a good PG and a good squad around them.

Yeah, they don't elevate the other players. Like 99.9% of all other basketball players who played.

And FYI Oak, Durant\Westbrook don't really "elevate" anyone anymore than Stat\Melo, but will agree with other examples.
It's just that the rest of the team is\was better, oh, and they were coached for 2 years by a coach who coaches D and doesn't suck. At the least, the Knicks found a coach who coaches D. We'll see if Woodson is good. I liked what I saw last year in a reasonable sample.

[thebuzzardman]

i am not rewriting history nor am i sticking a knife in MDA. I liked him a lot and i applauded him for stepping down and defending melo twice at the olympics. mda could have easily gone off on melo but he didnt he kept quiet. i was talking about his system which gives everyone a liscence to score. his system unfortunately didnt fit with the current structure of our roster. notice how once woodson took over he imposed a hierarchy in terms of scoring. melo first, amare second lin 3rd. mda wasn't like that. that is all i meant.

I can't believe I'm actually gonna defend D'antoni, but the "equal opportunity shot" offense claim is false.

His best guys have always gotten their shots first, whether with Nash or here.

The rest of the shots were determined by the open shot predicated by good ball movement, usually early in the clock so the defense can't set.

I agree the pieces didn't fit his system, but that's due to the players own efficiency and not the system itself.

D'antoni's offense wasn't the issue at all.

Thugger is right again.

Half right. The lack of success of the system had less to do with the "ineffeciency" of certain players and really had to do with the lack of good PG, especially for most of last year.

System did ok with Felton, Lin doing well, Chauncey once he synced and was healthy

[knicksnyk]

You said his offense gives everyone a license to score.

That is not true, but i agreed with most of the rest.

it kind of did though. just look at this year since these games are fresh in my mind. there were games that I rewatched under danton where melo or amare wouldn't touch the ball for like multiple possesions in a row when lin was running the point. it got a little bit absurd. woodson imposed more of a hierarchy. and looked to go to melo and amare first and foremost.

[Thugger HBC]

i am not rewriting history nor am i sticking a knife in MDA. I liked him a lot and i applauded him for stepping down and defending melo twice at the olympics. mda could have easily gone off on melo but he didnt he kept quiet. i was talking about his system which gives everyone a liscence to score. his system unfortunately didnt fit with the current structure of our roster. notice how once woodson took over he imposed a hierarchy in terms of scoring. melo first, amare second lin 3rd. mda wasn't like that. that is all i meant.

I can't believe I'm actually gonna defend D'antoni, but the "equal opportunity shot" offense claim is false.

His best guys have always gotten their shots first, whether with Nash or here.

The rest of the shots were determined by the open shot predicated by good ball movement, usually early in the clock so the defense can't set.

I agree the pieces didn't fit his system, but that's due to the players own efficiency and not the system itself.

D'antoni's offense wasn't the issue at all.

That's where I disagree. I saw a lot of shots early in the shot-clock against set defenses. If you're gonna take the hit on defense you get with Melo and Amare, you need to make a concerted effort to get them the ball early and often, even if it means taking away green lights for the likes of Fields and Douglas.

Fields and Douglas had green lights?

To me green light in d'atoni's offense is taking over 10 shots a game, as was in PHX.

Fields and douglas didn't fit that mold.

[knicksnyk]

Not douglas.

anyway, by greenlight i don't mean taking voer 10 shots a game. i should be clear. by greenlight i mean there are 5 guys out on the floor one is melo the other is amare. with a greenlight the pg can give the ball to any of those 4 guys equally. with less of a greenlight it is the pg's job to try and get the ball to melo and amare first and foremost (set them up first) and then worry about everyone else. that is my meaning of greenlight. not in terms of how many shots you take but in the hierarchy of who gets fed the ball the most.

[Thugger HBC]

I can't believe I'm actually gonna defend D'antoni, but the "equal opportunity shot" offense claim is false.

His best guys have always gotten their shots first, whether with Nash or here.

The rest of the shots were determined by the open shot predicated by good ball movement, usually early in the clock so the defense can't set.

I agree the pieces didn't fit his system, but that's due to the players own efficiency and not the system itself.

D'antoni's offense wasn't the issue at all.

Thugger is right again.

Half right. The lack of success of the system had less to do with the "ineffeciency" of certain players and really had to do with the lack of good PG, especially for most of last year.

System did ok with Felton, Lin doing well, Chauncey once he synced and was healthy

A pg or playmaker is vital to any offense, whether it's D'antoni's or any coach.

[thebuzzardman]

REALLY vital to D'Antoni's system...

[spree2kawhi]

D'Antoni is not a stupid man. His ideas are certainly right. Woodson's emphasis on defense does, however, help the team out quite a lot. And it won't hurt to have some real decent ballhandlers next season. D'Antoni would certainly have loved to have Jason Kidd to work with on offense.

[truth serum]

Oak speaks the truth but I have faith in these Knicks to get it done. The team seems poised and has more leadership now than we've had in a long time. The presence of Kidd, Camby, Kurt and even guys like Brewer and Pablo who come from winning teams that play team basketball will make Mike Woodson's job a lot easier. If Melo takes that next step as a player and Amar'e stays healthy and productive, the Knicks will be an elite team. Right there with Miami, LA and OKC. Bulls, Pacers, Celtics and Clippers will be beneath us. Won't even acknowledge the Nets past acknowledging them the way I just acknowledged them.

[Thugger HBC]

Not douglas.

anyway, by greenlight i don't mean taking voer 10 shots a game. i should be clear. by greenlight i mean there are 5 guys out on the floor one is melo the other is amare. with a greenlight the pg can give the ball to any of those 4 guys equally. with less of a greenlight it is the pg's job to try and get the ball to melo and amare first and foremost (set them up first) and then worry about everyone else. that is my meaning of greenlight. not in terms of how many shots you take but in the hierarchy of who gets fed the ball the most.

I felt this was done even under D'antoni

Melo was the pg prior to Lin, so he definitely had the hierarchy.

Amare just was not himself, you can't just forcefeed it, even though at times the team did.

[ORANGEandBLUE]

A pg or playmaker is vital to any offense, whether it's D'antoni's or any coach.

yes, a lot of offenses can get by with a pg OR playmaker. In the triangle for example, the post player is the playmaker.

In D'Antoni's offense, the playmaker has to be the pg. This is why Melo- our best playmaker in the beginning of the season- was thrust into the pg role.

I think the right way to approach things would have been to tread water with an iso melo offense until we got a PG. It wouldn't have been sustainable, but we wouldn't have plummeted to 8-15. This is basically what Woodson did when he had to go long stretches with Shump and JR in the backcourt.