Should the Knicks tank in the '16-'17 season?

[newyorker4ever]

We have our 2017 draft pick, among others. We also have cap space and a some win-now pieces in guys like Melo and Lopez.

Do we ignore Melo & Co. and pull another '15 in the hopes of landing some big talent to play along porzingis for years to come, or do we go all in for playoff push and beyond and accepting wherever the cards fall.

Pros of tanking:
- The draft is by far the best way of landing talent, especially talent that coincide with Porzingis' time frame (unlike Melo)
- We have all of our first round draft picks after 2016. If we stick to tanking we can land a bunch of high picks to increase our chances of landing bigtime talent for years to come and maybe setup a juggernaut dynasty in the future
Cons of tanking:
- The gambles fail and we draft a bunch of busts with nothing to show for it
- Porzingis' growth might be stunted
- Angry/impatient fans and media putting pressure and causing dysfunction
- What do we do with Melo, who could drop 20 ppg in his sleep?
- Knicks associated with losing culture and we become the next sixers


Pros of trying to be competitive:
- Better for Porzingis' development and mentality, especially if he gets playoff experience
- We make use of Melo and Lopez
- Become more enticing for free agents
- Winning more games abates all the controversy and toxic media
- Not tanking doesnt mean we lose our draft picks. We still have our picks and could find gems in the later picks.
Cons of trying to be competitive:
- Lose out on potential talent in exchange for inconsequential wins (ex - like we lost out on Curry and Love)
- Nobody will be happy with anything short of a championship
- Coaching is a big question mark
- History has shown us that championship teams need all time great talent to win. Do we have that kind of centerpiece yet?

That's a tough question to answer without being able to see how our off season goes for us. If we don't get a legit guard to come in free agency and end up trading Melo then we could go the way of tanking but without Melo we might not have to tank next year because we'll have a bunch of youngsters that are still learning the game and K.Rambis as our head coach so a top pick will most likely be what we're looking at anyway.

[Jalen Bluntson]

If Melo stays tanking will not happen. I can't see him wanting to watch his friends in the playoffs another year. It would be a toxic environment. KP and Grant don't need that.

It is a crossroads though. The NTC is the huge issue. We can't rebuild unless Melo wants to go. The HC. Phil and Melo have opt outs after next season. This can all fall apart. Let's hope we keep our draft picks in the meantime.

Tanking is not an option with Melo here.

[NoLayupRule]

Crazy idea

Let's see what Jackson does in the offseason before we talk tank

Just sayin

[Floozenheimen]

Where was the option for neither?

I'd like to see the team keep developing at a slow pace, where we don't overpay for players to win now, we keep our draft picks (as even mid to late 1st rounders can amount to MVP level talents), we develop our own youth instead of trading them for aging has-beens and we don't forfeit entire seasons in the spirit of Hinkie.

I think this is what we've already started to do as of last summer, after the initial house cleaning in year one. This sort of team building in my opinion is the best. It creates a winning atmosphere all the while allowing the team to be flexible, with longevity in mind (since we are developing our youth and drafting new players each year) and eventually have a realistic shot at contending for a significant period of time, versus the one shot wonders that tried and failed here and Brooklyn, leaving each team in shambles for years to come.

[NoStatsGuy]

we owe it to melo to try imo.. i sincerely believe him when he says he wants to be ehre and wants ny to be competetive.

rationally tanking might be the smarter option tho

[nykfan42]

Tanking is stupid. Melo is not going anywhere no point in wasting another season while his prime is diminishing. Also for KP's development. A player of his potential should not be in a environment that accepts losing. Dude is hungry and the goal for next season has to be a playoff spot at least. If they miss the playoffs Phil should absolutely be fired because 3 years is plenty to at least build a roster to make the playoffs. I think with the right acquisitions that should be attainable. And as a fan I don't want to see another losing season. Be competitive like we played up to 22-22. That was fun to watch. I've seen enough garbage the past 15 seasons.

[NYKnicksTAPE]

Where was the option for neither?

I'd like to see the team keep developing at a slow pace, where we don't overpay for players to win now, we keep our draft picks (as even mid to late 1st rounders can amount to MVP level talents), we develop our own youth instead of trading them for aging has-beens and we don't forfeit entire seasons in the spirit of Hinkie.

I think this is what we've already started to do as of last summer, after the initial house cleaning in year one. This sort of team building in my opinion is the best. It creates a winning atmosphere all the while allowing the team to be flexible, with longevity in mind (since we are developing our youth and drafting new players each year) and eventually have a realistic shot at contending for a significant period of time, versus the one shot wonders that tried and failed here and Brooklyn, leaving each team in shambles for years to come.

I've talked about us building NYC's version of the Boston Celtics...a young, exciting playoff team with KP as the star instead of IT. They've managed to create a playoff squad while still maintaining a ton of flexibility and not compromising their future. You build that here and the star FA's will come flocking.

[NY2TheBay]

Crazy idea

Let's see what Jackson does in the offseason before we talk tank

Just sayin

This is too much logic for around these parts.

Said it before, tank is not in the cards for this team. Now if we trade off Melo for picks etc (which I do not see happening) then I could see it. No need to even address this until a Melo trade happens.

[Juggynaut]

Sorry I'm done with going through mediocre seasons for mediocre results. Tanking is the most logical move and so is trading Melo. People that wants to be like the Celtics realize that they traded their star players and tank/gather assets for a season before they got good.

[Fat]

it would be such a knick move to NOT tank in a guard loaded draft


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[malik959]

Porzingis could learn a lot from Melo, Lopez, and winning.

Basketball is not played on paper. Chemistry, winning, culture, motivation, and veteran tutelage are real things.

And how many picks can we develop anyway? we already have '17 and '18 (not to mention 2nd round picks). We don't lose '17 and '18 if we decide not to tank.

is actively investing in a losing season worth it after we've already gotten an elite rookie?

People make it out to be just that easy.

1. Melo has to want to go
2. If Melo agrees it'll be with a team that's playoff bound so no picks that we would seem worth it. We would have to add a 3rd team to the mix and yeah it maybe easy on paper, it's. Definitely not that easy.
3. The only players holding us back from any thing are Calderon and Afflalo inwhich Calderon's salary is now equal to a bench player and he's expiring, and Afflalo can choose to go elsewhere.
We are are in a very good position where we just need a few pieces to go with what we have but people are so quick to say we can do better through the draft. Yeah the only team out there that has been truly successful from the draft is GS oh and sort of Cleveland with LBJ. All the others are no greater than 6th seed After rebuilding through the draft. Teams like Philly, Sac town, Denver, and Orlando will forever be in the Lotto with nothing to show for.
I'd rather stick to the plan and add pieces to what we have. We don't have to spend all we have on this weak FA this year. I'm happy with one year rentals and then go into FA next year with guns blazing.
Even if we come up with 10to 14th pick in the draft we're still in a great position in a stacked draft inwhich we've seen more all stars go 6-14th over 1–5. We have way more to lose by tanking than we do by winning. More players try to sign with winning franchises (San Antonio) over loses (Brooklyn)

Now let's say we did over pay for say Batum, he himself along with Melo, Rolo, and KP make us a possible 6th seed team. Come 2017 we and our draft pick and another free agent like CP3 or even Westbrook then we have a Championship caliber team. Now I'm not saying that this is going to happen but the possibility are there, we just have to be patient and stay positive. I swear any little thing that goes wrong with MY people go on a rampage like OMG we're all going to die we need to blow it up!

i saw no comments of any kind saying anything is easy. if may be very difficult to make happen. thats why i dont say do this or do that. I say if it possible and can happen then do it. otherwise there is no reason to blow up a team

but mixed approaches dont work either. and that is the heart of the problem already and one of the key distinctions of the jackson era which is sort of rebuilding not fully rebuilding

so i am all for tearing things down if you can get draft picks for our two most tradeable assets (melo and lopez) for two basic reasons

1 is kp. adding other star quality rookies to a team with a possible superstar is how you build championship teams

2 a loaded draft (i dont follow college but if so many are saying this is a mega draft then you dont look the other direction you ask how can we be a big player in the draft)

What I'm trying to say is so many people keep saying trade Melo, trade Melo, trade Melo but if Melo doesn't want to leave and Melo wants to win here then what do you do. Right now he is here so he is the player you build around. Our core of Melo, Rolo, and KP is a great core to build around and people want to give it up which is just crazy. Find guards to continue building around it.

[CJackson]

People make it out to be just that easy.

1. Melo has to want to go
2. If Melo agrees it'll be with a team that's playoff bound so no picks that we would seem worth it. We would have to add a 3rd team to the mix and yeah it maybe easy on paper, it's. Definitely not that easy.
3. The only players holding us back from any thing are Calderon and Afflalo inwhich Calderon's salary is now equal to a bench player and he's expiring, and Afflalo can choose to go elsewhere.
We are are in a very good position where we just need a few pieces to go with what we have but people are so quick to say we can do better through the draft. Yeah the only team out there that has been truly successful from the draft is GS oh and sort of Cleveland with LBJ. All the others are no greater than 6th seed After rebuilding through the draft. Teams like Philly, Sac town, Denver, and Orlando will forever be in the Lotto with nothing to show for.
I'd rather stick to the plan and add pieces to what we have. We don't have to spend all we have on this weak FA this year. I'm happy with one year rentals and then go into FA next year with guns blazing.
Even if we come up with 10to 14th pick in the draft we're still in a great position in a stacked draft inwhich we've seen more all stars go 6-14th over 1–5. We have way more to lose by tanking than we do by winning. More players try to sign with winning franchises (San Antonio) over loses (Brooklyn)

Now let's say we did over pay for say Batum, he himself along with Melo, Rolo, and KP make us a possible 6th seed team. Come 2017 we and our draft pick and another free agent like CP3 or even Westbrook then we have a Championship caliber team. Now I'm not saying that this is going to happen but the possibility are there, we just have to be patient and stay positive. I swear any little thing that goes wrong with MY people go on a rampage like OMG we're all going to die we need to blow it up!

i saw no comments of any kind saying anything is easy. if may be very difficult to make happen. thats why i dont say do this or do that. I say if it possible and can happen then do it. otherwise there is no reason to blow up a team

but mixed approaches dont work either. and that is the heart of the problem already and one of the key distinctions of the jackson era which is sort of rebuilding not fully rebuilding

so i am all for tearing things down if you can get draft picks for our two most tradeable assets (melo and lopez) for two basic reasons

1 is kp. adding other star quality rookies to a team with a possible superstar is how you build championship teams

2 a loaded draft (i dont follow college but if so many are saying this is a mega draft then you dont look the other direction you ask how can we be a big player in the draft)

What I'm trying to say is so many people keep saying trade Melo, trade Melo, trade Melo but if Melo doesn't want to leave and Melo wants to win here then what do you do. Right now he is here so he is the player you build around. Our core of Melo, Rolo, and KP is a great core to build around and people want to give it up which is just crazy. Find guards to continue building around it.

because ................. you know why

but i have also said that it should be on good terms which means if you cant get good assets for melo then you still can continue adding players to at least be competitive

but make no mistake about it if you want to build a championship team if you have a shot at stockpiling picks in a loaded draft then you do it. holding on to melo is a distant 2nd best on that account. hes fine. not saying anything negative but the knicks are never winning a ring during melos contract so if you can flip that contract into a shot at building a champ team you frigging do it

but it could be easier said than done. might not be possible to rig a good deal. if not then no you dont dump melo for nothing

[CJackson]

Crazy idea

Let's see what Jackson does in the offseason before we talk tank

Just sayin

This is too much logic for around these parts.

Said it before, tank is not in the cards for this team. Now if we trade off Melo for picks etc (which I do not see happening) then I could see it. No need to even address this until a Melo trade happens.

the reason you trade melo is to tank hard so of course it will be addressed NOW and not after the fact. you can be certain all options are analyzed inside the franchise so i see no reason people shouldnt do the same here NOW

but you may not be interested until after the fact. suit yourself

[NY2TheBay]

Crazy idea

Let's see what Jackson does in the offseason before we talk tank

Just sayin

This is too much logic for around these parts.

Said it before, tank is not in the cards for this team. Now if we trade off Melo for picks etc (which I do not see happening) then I could see it. No need to even address this until a Melo trade happens.

the reason you trade melo is to tank hard so of course it will be addressed NOW and not after the fact. you can be certain all options are analyzed inside the franchise so i see no reason people shouldnt do the same here NOW

but you may not be interested until after the fact. suit yourself

You can talk about it all you want, who am I to judge. However, you are essentially talking about something that may never occur and seemingly is off the current course. Tanking is an idea that only a few franchises buy into, i.e. philly, but many won't intentionally tank. So we are then speaking in hypotheticals that this team would indeed actually intentionally lose games after hypothetically trading melo to better suit their draft position.

I'd be more inclined to talk about it after a trade occurred, and even then you better have the right coach in place to further push your desire of losing games.

For the record, I am not against a rebuild and actually encourage it just don't see it happening with this current regime. I am all for adding more to this subject once the hypotheticals are turned into reality. I am not here to impede discussion on the subject just agreeing with a poster that see's more logic.

[ozwizard8]

phil already tried to make playoffs:

2014-15 --> 14th in East.
2015-16 --> 13th in East.

so either way we'll tank.
better question is:
Should the Knicks tank or replace Phil Jackson with Thibs in the 16-17 season?

[malik959]

This is too much logic for around these parts.

Said it before, tank is not in the cards for this team. Now if we trade off Melo for picks etc (which I do not see happening) then I could see it. No need to even address this until a Melo trade happens.

the reason you trade melo is to tank hard so of course it will be addressed NOW and not after the fact. you can be certain all options are analyzed inside the franchise so i see no reason people shouldnt do the same here NOW

but you may not be interested until after the fact. suit yourself

You can talk about it all you want, who am I to judge. However, you are essentially talking about something that may never occur and seemingly is off the current course. Tanking is an idea that only a few franchises buy into, i.e. philly, but many won't intentionally tank. So we are then speaking in hypotheticals that this team would indeed actually intentionally lose games after hypothetically trading melo to better suit their draft position.

I'd be more inclined to talk about it after a trade occurred, and even then you better have the right coach in place to further push your desire of losing games.

For the record, I am not against a rebuild and actually encourage it just don't see it happening with this current regime. I am all for adding more to this subject once the hypotheticals are turned into reality. I am not here to impede discussion on the subject just agreeing with a poster that see's more logic.

This, we can talk about trading Melo until we turn blue, but the fact is he has to make that decision and as of right now he has said on so many occasions he wants to win here. All of the cards are in his hands and NY would look like fools trying to force a tank when 1) you have a super star on your team that wants to win, and 2) your about two pieces away from really competing. Trading Melo would be like trading 5 pennies for a nickel, it's pointless. Your not going to get younger + draft picks because he's not going to the Lakers, Celtics, Timberwolves, Kings who will have pics.

[CJackson]

This is too much logic for around these parts.

Said it before, tank is not in the cards for this team. Now if we trade off Melo for picks etc (which I do not see happening) then I could see it. No need to even address this until a Melo trade happens.

the reason you trade melo is to tank hard so of course it will be addressed NOW and not after the fact. you can be certain all options are analyzed inside the franchise so i see no reason people shouldnt do the same here NOW

but you may not be interested until after the fact. suit yourself

You can talk about it all you want, who am I to judge. However, you are essentially talking about something that may never occur and seemingly is off the current course. Tanking is an idea that only a few franchises buy into, i.e. philly, but many won't intentionally tank. So we are then speaking in hypotheticals that this team would indeed actually intentionally lose games after hypothetically trading melo to better suit their draft position.

I'd be more inclined to talk about it after a trade occurred, and even then you better have the right coach in place to further push your desire of losing games.

For the record, I am not against a rebuild and actually encourage it just don't see it happening with this current regime. I am all for adding more to this subject once the hypotheticals are turned into reality. I am not here to impede discussion on the subject just agreeing with a poster that see's more logic.

of course man, we are all speculating. when you wish to engage some ideas is obviously your call. no biggie

and you are probably right that a tank for rebuilding wont happen. but the convergence of an opportunity to gobble up picks and tank ahead of what could be a draft that changes the nba is something that may only come around once in many decades. you have to recognize it as a rare set of intersecting events and take advantage of it. but the they probably wont so you are probably right

p.s. if we dont then if that draft is a super draft every player we dont have a shot at goes to another team. if there are a half dozen franchise type players in a draft and you can get one you should try but if you dont then it could be somebody in your division or conference who does that makes it even harder to advance

[N Y K]

tank or don't tank, the good news is, as my friend fatboy pointed out, this is a guarded-heavy draft. so when we end up somewhere juuuuuuust outside of the 8th seed, we should still have a shot at a good guard.


(with the DON clarence still around)

[method]

Yes without a doubt we need to trade Melo for assets picks\young players and go all in for the tank.There a reason Phil wwas not giving up the draft pick at the deadline no matter what.We need another top 3 pick...we need to rebuild properly.We all should praise Phil if he goes all in on the tank because he is the only one with enough clout to get away with it.

[CJackson]

Yes without a doubt we need to trade Melo for assets picks\young players and go all in for the tank.There a reason Phil wwas not giving up the draft pick at the deadline no matter what.We need another top 3 pick...we need to rebuild properly.We all should praise Phil if he does all in on the tank because he is the only one with enough clot to get away with it.

i will praise phil if he does it because then i will be pretty sure he finally woke up to what he true legacy from this gig would be which is landing a group of generational talents not pushing a system or cultural concepts that are clearly not going to last past his time here. the only good thing he can be remembered for is doing the right thing and loading up on talent. if he gobbles up picks and tanks then that is doing his job the right way not halfway