George Floyd (and aftermath): Part 2

[HarthorneWingo]

couple things:

From the reports they did attempt to tase him

The shooting in Kenosha, a city located between Milwaukee and Chicago, occurred after 5 p.m. Sunday, when officers responded to a domestic incident, police said. Witnesses told the Kenosha News that Blake was trying to break up a fight and that police first attempted to stun him with a Taser.

he was either a tough SOB and wasn't effected by a taser which happens from time to time or they missed. I need to see all the facts in this one and its one of my biggest issues (they better have police cams) to see what happened leading up to the shooting.

I can't fathom casually walk away from two police officers pointing a gun at me...I have no clue what he was trying to accomplish there. Then to open a door and reach into a car...I mean that isn't very smart.

Then I agree with Fat Kat as well. When you combine this man not complying with usually not very intelligent police officers...you get this result.

They had 3 cops on the scene (none of whom were wearing body cams) and they couldn't physically control this guy?

[mpharris36]

couple things:

From the reports they did attempt to tase him

The shooting in Kenosha, a city located between Milwaukee and Chicago, occurred after 5 p.m. Sunday, when officers responded to a domestic incident, police said. Witnesses told the Kenosha News that Blake was trying to break up a fight and that police first attempted to stun him with a Taser.

he was either a tough SOB and wasn't effected by a taser which happens from time to time or they missed. I need to see all the facts in this one and its one of my biggest issues (they better have police cams) to see what happened leading up to the shooting.

I can't fathom casually walk away from two police officers pointing a gun at me...I have no clue what he was trying to accomplish there. Then to open a door and reach into a car...I mean that isn't very smart.

Then I agree with Fat Kat as well. When you combine this man not complying with usually not very intelligent police officers...you get this result.

They had 3 cops on the scene (none of whom were wearing body cams) and they couldn't physically control this guy?

I would tend to agree there. But I have also seen 2 cops be over powered plenty before (not excusing this specific situation because I don't know the details). I'm just saying situations have escalated before after trying to tas and take someone down before shooting. Not excusing the shooting but I need to see all the details first. No body cams is unacceptable...they should be held accountable for that alone. It should be a requirement 24/7 when on duty to wear a body cam.

But the below happens too.

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[Kampuchea]

Why seven shots? Can’t they shoot him in the ass a couple times? They escalate to trying to kill the guy way too quickly.

Dude reaching into the car ignoring them is putting himself in danger but you don’t need to unload your clip in his back.

[j4remi]

Truth of the matter is you’re only allowed to be so smart as a cop. They refuse to employ high IQ people. A psychological profile would reveal that many of them were probably bullied and/or are virulent racist. Garbage men and sewage workers are more valuable and important members of our society.

Defund the police and fund "public safety officers" who'll have a whole new directive and purpose in responding to the community. Tear it down except for the detective divisions. Get rid of the disciplinary procedures they've negotiated with the unions. Create a police disciplinary commission which has no connection to the police department or local DA's office.

my concern of that is the first public safety officer that shows up to a traffic stop or a domestic dispute without a weapon and is shot or threatened I doubt you will have many willing people to take that profession. Just being realistic, how many people do you know that want to be police officers? Now give them no ability to also protect themselves.

Not trying to be divisive just trying to be realistic about expectations of what the "public safety officers" would respond too.

Spoiler:

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The most practical vision for "Public Safety officers" in a defund context that I've found is out of Eugene Oregon. They have a program called CAHOOTS and how it works is that they get dispatched to non-violent 911 calls. They go out in a team of two typically; one crisis responder with behavioral health expertise and one Nurse or EMT. They arrive, assess and then decide if they have to call for police back-up or not before approaching. This model has held and been effective for 30 years there.

It's a fairly small case study with a population of about 170,000; but they responded to 20% of the calls in 2019. That accounts for 24,000 calls and they only needed police back-up about 150 times. More importantly it saved Eugene millions on both public safety and ambulance/ER trip costs. The biggest benefits seem to be for encounters with the homeless and those with mental health issues.

I don't think a wise defund model would have these public service types in proactive policing situations. They'd be in a highly reactive role; responding to 911 calls for specific situation. I'm not sure how great proactive policing bares out in the data, I've never looked at it beyond specific measures that we all know failed (Broken Windows policing and Stop-and-Frisk policing). So I'm skeptical on the efficacy of proactive policing in general tbh, but I think this article gives a good in-depth picture of what a defund concept would look like if it reduced policing and replaced it rather than abolishing police.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/05/us/cahoots-replace-police-mental-health-trnd/index.html

[mpharris36]

Defund the police and fund "public safety officers" who'll have a whole new directive and purpose in responding to the community. Tear it down except for the detective divisions. Get rid of the disciplinary procedures they've negotiated with the unions. Create a police disciplinary commission which has no connection to the police department or local DA's office.

my concern of that is the first public safety officer that shows up to a traffic stop or a domestic dispute without a weapon and is shot or threatened I doubt you will have many willing people to take that profession. Just being realistic, how many people do you know that want to be police officers? Now give them no ability to also protect themselves.

Not trying to be divisive just trying to be realistic about expectations of what the "public safety officers" would respond too.

Spoiler:

Read on Twitter

The most practical vision for "Public Safety officers" in a defund context that I've found is out of Eugene Oregon. They have a program called CAHOOTS and how it works is that they get dispatched to non-violent 911 calls. They go out in a team of two typically; one crisis responder with behavioral health expertise and one Nurse or EMT. They arrive, assess and then decide if they have to call for police back-up or not before approaching. This model has held and been effective for 30 years there.

It's a fairly small case study with a population of about 170,000; but they responded to 20% of the calls in 2019. That accounts for 24,000 calls and they only needed police back-up about 150 times. More importantly it saved Eugene millions on both public safety and ambulance/ER trip costs. The biggest benefits seem to be for encounters with the homeless and those with mental health issues.

I don't think a wise defund model would have these public service types in proactive policing situations. They'd be in a highly reactive role; responding to 911 calls for specific situation. I'm not sure how great proactive policing bares out in the data, I've never looked at it beyond specific measures that we all know failed (Broken Windows policing and Stop-and-Frisk policing). So I'm skeptical on the efficacy of proactive policing in general tbh, but I think this article gives a good in-depth picture of what a defund concept would look like if it reduced policing and replaced it rather than abolishing police.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/05/us/cahoots-replace-police-mental-health-trnd/index.html

Worth taking a look into Remi. Do you know what type of calls they typical go on? non-violent calls can be a lot of different things. Just trying to get a sense on there typical calls and is eugrne. I did just read that eugene has a pretty high crime rate compared to the rest of the country. But would like to get a sense of the type of calls they get dispatched too.

Is a domestic dispute considered a non-violent event? A traffic stop? DUI checkpoints? Just trying to get a better sense of what they would respond to.

Like I would be all for not having the police showing up if someone has a car accident or someone falls down a set of stairs or something like that. But how many of those incidents turn lethal? It usually is a situation where there is some sort of resisting arrest (outside of the George Floyd case) where I think we can all agree that was the most egregious of situations in where a officer had complete disregard for a human being without a threat of his own life in danger.

[HarthorneWingo]

Truth of the matter is you’re only allowed to be so smart as a cop. They refuse to employ high IQ people. A psychological profile would reveal that many of them were probably bullied and/or are virulent racist. Garbage men and sewage workers are more valuable and important members of our society.

Defund the police and fund "public safety officers" who'll have a whole new directive and purpose in responding to the community. Tear it down except for the detective divisions. Get rid of the disciplinary procedures they've negotiated with the unions. Create a police disciplinary commission which has no connection to the police department or local DA's office.

my concern of that is the first public safety officer that shows up to a traffic stop or a domestic dispute without a weapon and is shot or threatened I doubt you will have many willing people to take that profession. Just being realistic, how many people do you know that want to be police officers? Now give them no ability to also protect themselves.

Not trying to be divisive just trying to be realistic about expectations of what the "public safety officers" would respond too.

Read on Twitter

D/R cases are problematic. Cops hate going to them because they get themselves in the middle of this emotional brouhaha and then the couple makes up and the wife later testifies how the cops responded and beat the hell out of her man when everything was under control. True.

I think there are actually better qualified people. Look, the police can't stop every bad person from doing a bad thing. My suggestion is simply DON'T GET MARRIED!

As for the officer in the tweet who got gunned down chasing a hit and run driver, my perspective is that officers should not be engaged in high speed chases of this sort so long as they can get a license plate number. In the alternative, he could've followed the vehicle while he radioed in for assistance from other officers, even those in nearby counties if necessary. I've seen many lawsuits filed by innocent third party victims because they were injured seriously or died as a result of the high speed chase. Many times the chase is over something that doesn't justify the risk to everyone.

[HarthorneWingo]

couple things:

From the reports they did attempt to tase him



he was either a tough SOB and wasn't effected by a taser which happens from time to time or they missed. I need to see all the facts in this one and its one of my biggest issues (they better have police cams) to see what happened leading up to the shooting.

I can't fathom casually walk away from two police officers pointing a gun at me...I have no clue what he was trying to accomplish there. Then to open a door and reach into a car...I mean that isn't very smart.

Then I agree with Fat Kat as well. When you combine this man not complying with usually not very intelligent police officers...you get this result.

They had 3 cops on the scene (none of whom were wearing body cams) and they couldn't physically control this guy?

I would tend to agree there. But I have also seen 2 cops be over powered plenty before (not excusing this specific situation because I don't know the details). I'm just saying situations have escalated before after trying to tas and take someone down before shooting. Not excusing the shooting but I need to see all the details first. No body cams is unacceptable...they should be held accountable for that alone. It should be a requirement 24/7 when on duty to wear a body cam.

But the below happens too.

Watch on YouTube

Yes, so the drunk driver took the gun off one of the cops while they they fumbles this arrest. This is the reason why I'm in favor of have unarmed "traffic safety officers" respond to these situations instead of men with guns.

[mpharris36]

Defund the police and fund "public safety officers" who'll have a whole new directive and purpose in responding to the community. Tear it down except for the detective divisions. Get rid of the disciplinary procedures they've negotiated with the unions. Create a police disciplinary commission which has no connection to the police department or local DA's office.

my concern of that is the first public safety officer that shows up to a traffic stop or a domestic dispute without a weapon and is shot or threatened I doubt you will have many willing people to take that profession. Just being realistic, how many people do you know that want to be police officers? Now give them no ability to also protect themselves.

Not trying to be divisive just trying to be realistic about expectations of what the "public safety officers" would respond too.

Read on Twitter

D/R cases are problematic. Cops hate going to them because they get themselves in the middle of this emotional brouhaha and then the couple makes up and the wife later testifies how the cops responded and beat the hell out of her man when everything was under control. True.

I think there are actually better qualified people. Look, the police can't stop every bad person
from doing a bad thing. My suggestion is simply DON'T GET MARRIED!

As for the officer in the tweet who got gunned down chasing a hit and run driver, my perspective is that officers should not be engaged in high speed chases of this sort so long as they can get a license plate number. In the alternative, he could've followed the vehicle while he radioed in for assistance from other officers, even those in nearby counties if necessary. I've seen many lawsuits filed by innocent third party victims because they were injured seriously or died as a result of the high speed chase. Many times the chase is over something that doesn't justify the risk to everyone.

There are pros and cons to your scenario. Obviously high speed chases are dangerious but the alternative is to not attempt to stop them. What if they end just being allowed to drive wrecklessly what if that car crashed into another family with there children and kills them? I think the goal is always to attempt to end the situation as soon as possible so other citizens aren't effected.

What if they just let the hit and run driver just go and he was entoxicated...the thought can't be hey let them drive home and we will get them in the morning. What if that person drives and hits and kills someone else. I know there isn't a great way to deal with certain situations but the answer can't be don't do anything.

I'm sure cops hate going to domestic disputes and I have heard cops showing up and being killed at those as well. But the alternative isn't just say oops sorry lady it way your fault for marrying this **** we will not show up while he beats the living daylights out of you.

[mpharris36]

They had 3 cops on the scene (none of whom were wearing body cams) and they couldn't physically control this guy?

I would tend to agree there. But I have also seen 2 cops be over powered plenty before (not excusing this specific situation because I don't know the details). I'm just saying situations have escalated before after trying to tas and take someone down before shooting. Not excusing the shooting but I need to see all the details first. No body cams is unacceptable...they should be held accountable for that alone. It should be a requirement 24/7 when on duty to wear a body cam.

But the below happens too.

Watch on YouTube

Yes, so the drunk driver took the gun off one of the cops while they they fumbles this arrest. This is the reason why I'm in favor of have unarmed "traffic safety officers" respond to these situations instead of men with guns.

He didn't take the gun off him. He attempted to reach for the officers gun but miss. The video clearly shows he then opened his car door reached into his own car and pulls out his own gun and starts shooting them.

Also im not trying to use this as an excuse that hey cops get killed they need to expect to be shot at all time...that for sure isn't case. Just pointing out an obvious concern having not armed "public servents" go up against armed citizens breaking the law. Who do you know in there right mind would sign up for that job?

[Jscratch1200]

As I have mentioned before, I work for a company out of Wisconsin. I'm currently on a project in NJ, but the majority of the guys here are from WI.

I just want to say that the things I heard come from their mouths today was nothing short of disgusting. First, they base all their information on misinformation, about how the guy was a convicted felon who the cops were called to subdue because he was running around with a knife and tried to attack the police. Of course none of them question their source. Then they begin to let their colors show, "I'm gonna shoot the protesters out my truck window, won't be the first time I killed something out of my window", "he deserved to be shot 7 times, and all the protesters do too!", "they need to go in there and open fire on the protest, and get the whites that are out there too!". Just insane comment after comment.

Should Jacob Blake have attempted to enter his car with police there? No, that was a bad move. But that shouldn't warrant being shot 7 times point blank in the back. The problem we have is that a massive population view lives as disposable. They don't comprehend why people protest and riot, because they don't view human lives as important. To them, we are like animals.

[Jalen Bluntson]

In a perfect world, the cop would've tased him or used non lethal force before he was allowed to gingerly walk all the way back to his vehicle; Nevertheless, the dude should've known better.

Resist arrest all you want. That's on you if the cops are gonna do dumb **** afterwards. Not sure why no one had a taser or rubber bullets or whatever other forms of non lethal weapon drawn but...this dude fuqqed up. Going to reach in the car like that would be allowed? Stupid move.

Stupid move? Maybe. Deserved to die? No.

This is just another example of dumbass cops resorting to deadly force because they're too lazy and/or stupid and/or don't give a fck to handle this situation correctly. They had three cops and once suspect and couldn't handle it. They all need to be fired and the shooter criminally charged.

You say "don't resist" like it's just a routine experience. Have you ever been confronted by moron cop? I have. Trust me, you don't know how you'll react until you are in that situation.

Without divulging too much of a dark past...yes I've had guns drawn on me and been in several situations with a-hole cops. Never once resisted...never once got shot. Took a few lumps but...that is about it.

You did see where I questioned the use of force in my post right? The police acted irrationally and it was a disgusting display of police work. That doesn't excuse the dude resisting and going for something in his car. What the hell did think the cops were gonna do at that point? Ridiculous move as a matter of fact.

[Stannis]

He survived?

[HarthorneWingo]

Resist arrest all you want. That's on you if the cops are gonna do dumb **** afterwards. Not sure why no one had a taser or rubber bullets or whatever other forms of non lethal weapon drawn but...this dude fuqqed up. Going to reach in the car like that would be allowed? Stupid move.

Stupid move? Maybe. Deserved to die? No.

This is just another example of dumbass cops resorting to deadly force because they're too lazy and/or stupid and/or don't give a fck to handle this situation correctly. They had three cops and once suspect and couldn't handle it. They all need to be fired and the shooter criminally charged.

You say "don't resist" like it's just a routine experience. Have you ever been confronted by moron cop? I have. Trust me, you don't know how you'll react until you are in that situation.

Without divulging too much of a dark past...yes I've had guns drawn on me and been in several situations with a-hole cops. Never once resisted...never once got shot. Took a few lumps but...that is about it.

You did see where I questioned the use of force in my post right? The police acted irrationally and it was a disgusting display of police work. That doesn't excuse the dude resisting and going for something in his car. What the hell did think the cops were gonna do at that point? Ridiculous move as a matter of fact.

That sucks. Sorry to hear that. In the State of New York, it is legal to resist what is called "an unauthorized arrest." Basically, a false arrest meaning one without probable cause. Different states have different laws on this but, clearly, some states allow you to defend yourself from an illegal arrest.

My main problem is that the police are not educated or trained enough to deal with people with mental problems and/or emotionally charged situations like domestic violence or neighbor disputes which in the beginning seem like BS nuisances but can end up in someone getting seriously injured or killed. Which is why we need a whole new and modern approach to "public safety."

[HarthorneWingo]

He survived?

Wut?

[robillionaire]

As I have mentioned before, I work for a company out of Wisconsin. I'm currently on a project in NJ, but the majority of the guys here are from WI.

I just want to say that the things I heard come from their mouths today was nothing short of disgusting. First, they base all their information on misinformation, about how the guy was a convicted felon who the cops were called to subdue because he was running around with a knife and tried to attack the police. Of course none of them question their source. Then they begin to let their colors show, "I'm gonna shoot the protesters out my truck window, won't be the first time I killed something out of my window", "he deserved to be shot 7 times, and all the protesters do too!", "they need to go in there and open fire on the protest, and get the whites that are out there too!". Just insane comment after comment.

Should Jacob Blake have attempted to enter his car with police there? No, that was a bad move. But that shouldn't warrant being shot 7 times point blank in the back. The problem we have is that a massive population view lives as disposable. They don't comprehend why people protest and riot, because they don't view human lives as important. To them, we are like animals.

When someone tells you who they are, believe them

[Stannis]

He survived?

Wut?

The news says Blake is in the hospital expected to survive.

[HarthorneWingo]

He survived?

Wut?

The news says Blake is in the hospital expected to survive.

Were those bb guns the cops were shooting? Anyhow, that's great news that he'll survive. It would be crazy if he was lucky enough to fully recover.

[Stannis]

Wut?

The news says Blake is in the hospital expected to survive.

Were those bb guns the cops were shooting? Anyhow, that's great news that he'll survive. It would be crazy if he was lucky enough to fully recover.

7 shots to the back... very doubtful. Hopefully he can at least speak.

[HarthorneWingo]

The news says Blake is in the hospital expected to survive.

Were those bb guns the cops were shooting? Anyhow, that's great news that he'll survive. It would be crazy if he was lucky enough to fully recover.

7 shots to the back... very doubtful. Hopefully he can at least speak.

These cops act like scarred little rabbits. Some experts say that the police training they get overly heightens their readiness to shoot to easily. They are easily provoked and I'm sure the union tell them to do what they have to do to get home to their families. Even if they're fired and arrest, they will waive their right to a jury trial and have the case tried before the local county judge who has police officers in their courtroom every day and to whom the police union makes very generous campaign contributions. Then the judge finds "reasonable doubt" and then the union files for arbitration to get the cop's job back. Even if that's not possible, they'll negotiate some kind of buy out. Who knows? Maybe they'll even get another job with a different law enforcement agency?

[Fat Kat]

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