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Rose Master Plan Complete: Create best Thibs roster around Brunson

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Re: Rose Master Plan Complete: Create best Thibs roster around Brunson 

Post#21 » by 8516knicks » Mon Sep 30, 2024 12:20 am

KnixinSix wrote:With a focus on defense and what he values most there as well as creating elite spacing for Brunson.

1.No ball dominant players besides Brunson. KAT is more a score within the flow kind of offensive guy who is either quick to make his decision to drive, shoot or pass. Less low IQ / ball stopping indecisive stuff that Randle had a habit of doing when he bully balled. This team had dominant stretches when they moved the ball around well and they are more ideally structured to do that now.

2. DDV out but McBride still here. THis is underrated point here. Yes I get DDV was a sharpshooter. But he was better as a starter than a bench player and Bridges was going to definitely eat into his minutes. But the big thing is is McBride is worlds better as a defender in Thibs ssytem. DDV was not terrible but he was definitely one of the weaker defenders of the major minute guys on the team. Some of DDVs minutes will now go to McBride and he can be a closer for us defensively when we have a big lead.

3. Elite Floor spacing. 3 ball shooters from 1-5. Every position now will boast a 3 ball guy who can hit at 40% or near it. 5-out is how Boston won a championship last year and now we can play the same way for stretches of the game. KAT is one of the best 3 ball C/PFs in the history of the game.

4. Elite defenders 1-5 and players that can defend multiple positions. This might be the most important one of all. Thibs system thrives on defense. The one year we stunk under Thibs was when Kemba and Fournier got major minutes and were absolutely terrible on closing out and help defense. Terrible. KAT is not elite in some areas but he is a pretty strong 1 on 1 defender in recent years and much better than Randle was in this area. HE legit played solid D on Durant and excellent D on Jokic. He gives more effort here than Randle does and we purposely brought in one of the best big men coaches in the NBA to get the best out of him.

5. Better depth to survive injuries. This team has depth at every single position. Every single one. Even a guy like Marcus Morris is very good veteran depth to have in the frontcourt. If OG gets hurt we still have an elite defensive wing in Bridges to still execute Thibs defense.



Conclusion:
This team basically subbed out Randle and DDV for Bridges and KAT. And it is a big upgrade in terms of system fit for what THibs wants to do. This team beat EVERY team in the NBA last year including Minny, Denver, Boston etc. after getting OG. A strong defensive wing that can guard multiple positions is HUGE for Thibs system and now we added Bridges too! Bottomline, This is a truly a better fitting roster for what Thibs wants to do.


I think/hope you are right.

Good points, all of them.

The changes from last year though did cut down our D from the 5 position. And cut down our top go-to offensive guy in case Brun goes down for any length of time.

If Mitch comes back serviceable and not fat and Mikal and/or OG can still feast -- either by initiating or by Hart's insanely good foul line to foul line driving -- we'll be better.

We'll be close or maybe there in a good/lucky year. No reason we cant be as good as Denver was when they won. Sure, sure we don't have a Jokic but we have better and more numerous semi-stars.
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Re: Rose Master Plan Complete: Create the best Thibs fitting roster around Brunson 

Post#22 » by 8516knicks » Mon Sep 30, 2024 12:24 am

KnixinSix wrote:Let's look at the dynamics and approximate minutes of this kind of rotation:


KAT (15), Robinson (23), Morris (10)
OG(25), KAT (17), Hart (6)
Bridges (25), Hart (15), OG(8)
Hart(10), Bridges (8), McBride (25), Payne (5)
Brunson (32), Payne(10), Kolek (6)

Depth:
Achiuwa
Schamet
McCullers
Dadiet
Hukportl
Sims


1. Offensive 'juggernaut' line-up

KAT
OG
Bridges
McBride
Brunson

-3 ball 1 to 5
-tremendous spacing
-Decent length/wingspan at most positions, not elite but still strong rebounding potential
-Not an elite defensive line-up but OG and Bridges make it still pretty good
-5 guys capable of 20+ scoring nights


2. 'Balanced' line-up

Robinson
KAT/OG/Hart
OG/Hart
Bridges/Hart
Brunson

-3 ball 1 to 4
-strong spacing
-Excellent length/wingspan at all positions except maybe the 1, near elite rebounding potential
-Near elite defensive line-up


3. 'Lock-Down' line-up

Robinson
OG
Bridges
Hart
McBride/Brunson

-3-4 best defenders on floor simultaneously
-not elite but good spacing
-Good length/wingspan at all positions except maybe the 1, near elite rebounding potential
-Lock down defensive line-up, 'protect the lead' at end of games line-up


We don't know if Morris has anything left. And, regardless, Precious will be top big off the bench - maybe even ahead of a rehabbing fat Mitch.
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Re: Rose Master Plan Complete: Create best Thibs roster around Brunson 

Post#23 » by 8516knicks » Mon Sep 30, 2024 12:27 am

aggo wrote:TS
brunson 58.8
mikal 59.7
OG 58.1
KAT 62.3



Is that good or do we have to wait for the TS expert to weigh in>>? :D
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Re: Rose Master Plan Complete: Create best Thibs roster around Brunson 

Post#24 » by ITGM » Mon Sep 30, 2024 12:35 am

Leon Rose is like Thanos: he does what needs to be done, no matter the casualties. KAT was the final infinity stone!

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Re: Rose Master Plan Complete: Create best Thibs roster around Brunson 

Post#25 » by Jalen Bluntson » Mon Sep 30, 2024 12:44 am

Compare the rosters from when they were hired to today. I don't know about any master plan but, they have done more to improve in the last 2-3 years than every GM we have had since 1973 combined!!
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Re: Rose Master Plan Complete: Create best Thibs roster around Brunson 

Post#26 » by Luv those Knicks » Mon Sep 30, 2024 1:04 am

8516knicks wrote:
aggo wrote:TS
brunson 58.8
mikal 59.7
OG 58.1
KAT 62.3



Is that good or do we have to wait for the TS expert to weigh in>>? :D


NBA average last year was 58.0, so all 4 of those players are above average, only KAT is well above. Randle was well below league average TS%.

Those numbers, depending on our bench might put NY around 10th in the league - give or take. Last year we were 20th.

https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/advanced?dir=A&sort=TS_PCT&SeasonType=Regular+Season
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Re: Rose Master Plan Complete: Create best Thibs roster around Brunson 

Post#27 » by Chislic » Mon Sep 30, 2024 1:27 am

Surrounding Brunson with length, versatility and defensive ability. New additions to the team have to check 2 of those boxes.

With the new CBA it makes less sense investing a lot of money on guys who are one dimensional. Financially, investing in guys who can play multiple positions provides the team flexibility it needs when there are injuries or roster upgrades.

Roster construction that focuses on players who are "stars in their role" rather than All-stars also helps provide cap flexibility and while building a highly competitive team.
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Re: Rose Master Plan Complete: Create best Thibs roster around Brunson 

Post#28 » by Knicks218 » Mon Sep 30, 2024 1:34 am

Loosing DiVincenzo hurts bad I can't get over it smh. The trade should have been Randle, Robinson, McBride two 1st rd picks for KAT.

PG-Brunson/Payne/Arcaidiacon/Kolek
SG-DiVincenzo/Shamet/McCullar
SF-Bridges/Hart/Okeke/Dadiet
PF-Anunoby/Archiuwa/Morris
C-Towns/Sims/Hukporti

With Hart as our 6th man... Smh.
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Re: Rose Master Plan Complete: Create best Thibs roster around Brunson 

Post#29 » by NoLayupRule » Mon Sep 30, 2024 5:32 am

It’s pretty incredible that both towns and Brunson were children when rose became close to them

And now they are his corner stones

He’s put such a premium on the human side of things.


But anyway the defense at the 5 is going to be an issue.
The fact that we still have Robinson here is intriguing.

He’s still one of the best defensive anchors in the league.
When healthy.

I personally think he’s getting traded for a big.
A pf who can mix it up inside

I’m not sure who that is.
It’ll have to be a young guy that rose sees greatness in.
No one is trading a cornerstone big for an oft injured Robinson


Any ideas who could fit that bill?
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Re: Rose Master Plan Complete: Create best Thibs roster around Brunson 

Post#30 » by Jalen Bluntson » Mon Sep 30, 2024 5:44 am

NoLayupRule wrote:It’s pretty incredible that both towns and Brunson were children when rose became close to them

And now they are his corner stones

He’s put such a premium on the human side of things.


But anyway the defense at the 5 is going to be an issue.
The fact that we still have Robinson here is intriguing.

He’s still one of the best defensive anchors in the league.
When healthy.

I personally think he’s getting traded for a big.
A pf who can mix it up inside

I’m not sure who that is.
It’ll have to be a young guy that rose sees greatness in.
No one is trading a cornerstone big for an oft injured Robinson


Any ideas who could fit that bill?


You would be better off looking for a team that would want Mitch and trying to see what you would trade him for. His value has to be garbage right now. A team like the Knicks before the KAT trade would be desperate. People have named NOP but, no one believes they will trade any of the players they want for him. :lol:
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Re: Rose Master Plan Complete: Create best Thibs roster around Brunson 

Post#31 » by spree2kawhi » Mon Sep 30, 2024 10:29 am

seren wrote:He is collecting injury prone players on untradeable contracts. Our whole front court consists of players who average less than 60 games a season. We may end up significantly worse than anyone’s expectations if they can’t all at the same time stay healthy. It was one thing to carry one risk in Anonoby but KAT multiplies the risk tremendously. Don’t be shocked if Precious/Sims become our PF/C lineup to start way too many games

You’re acting like Randle played more games than Towns recently. This is next level hating. Randle has played 46 games last season and is coming off a shoulder surgery. Since 2020, Towns has played 27 playoff games. Compare that to Randle’s 15 and note that posters on this board have been adamant that his historically (!) lousy playoff resume was influenced by oh so many injuries. I take it you must have been one of them?
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Re: Rose Master Plan Complete: Create best Thibs roster around Brunson 

Post#32 » by KnixinSix » Mon Sep 30, 2024 12:28 pm

seren wrote:He is collecting injury prone players on untradeable contracts. Our whole front court consists of players who average less than 60 games a season. We may end up significantly worse than anyone’s expectations if they can’t all at the same time stay healthy. It was one thing to carry one risk in Anonoby but KAT multiplies the risk tremendously. Don’t be shocked if Precious/Sims become our PF/C lineup to start way too many games


Phillies roster is stacked with them. Injuries a very much a part of every sport including Basketball. And while some guys are more injury prone than others we are not on the high end here compared to other top contenders. Phoenix very old and injry prone. Clips with Kawhi. Lakers with AD and a 40 year old LeBron. Mavs with Kyrie. Etc. Etc.

Our roster replaced a guy who is older and becoming injury prone in Randle. KAT gets injuries but is younger and not what I would call severely injury prone. Bridges is an iron man so have no idea what you are talking about there. Brunson for all the abuse is fairly durable. We are actively trying to replace Mitch.

Every starting player in the line up is under 30 yet right in there prime with 5+ years of Basketball experience.
Some peeps want to be negative to be negative.

Our starting lineup is about as well set up as it could be.
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Re: Rose Master Plan Complete: Create best Thibs roster around Brunson 

Post#33 » by KnixinSix » Mon Sep 30, 2024 12:31 pm

Jalen Bluntson wrote:
NoLayupRule wrote:It’s pretty incredible that both towns and Brunson were children when rose became close to them

And now they are his corner stones

He’s put such a premium on the human side of things.


But anyway the defense at the 5 is going to be an issue.
The fact that we still have Robinson here is intriguing.

He’s still one of the best defensive anchors in the league.
When healthy.

I personally think he’s getting traded for a big.
A pf who can mix it up inside

I’m not sure who that is.
It’ll have to be a young guy that rose sees greatness in.
No one is trading a cornerstone big for an oft injured Robinson


Any ideas who could fit that bill?


You would be better off looking for a team that would want Mitch and trying to see what you would trade him for. His value has to be garbage right now. A team like the Knicks before the KAT trade would be desperate. People have named NOP but, no one believes they will trade any of the players they want for him. :lol:


Mitchell is available and I think we would reluctantly part with McBride if we had to in the right deal for a C.

But if they can get a rim protecting C without giving up McBride they would do it. An example of one that would probably require McBride.

Charlotte/Knicks trade:


In:
KNick Richards $5M
Cody Martin 8.1M
Taj Gibson 3.3M
Devonte Graham 2.8M
Total: 19.2M

Out:
Mitchell 14.3M
McBride 4.7M
Total:19M
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Re: Rose Master Plan Complete: Create best Thibs roster around Brunson 

Post#34 » by Ray Williams » Mon Sep 30, 2024 12:51 pm

Knicks218 wrote:Loosing DiVincenzo hurts bad I can't get over it smh. The trade should have been Randle, Robinson, McBride two 1st rd picks for KAT.

PG-Brunson/Payne/Arcaidiacon/Kolek
SG-DiVincenzo/Shamet/McCullar
SF-Bridges/Hart/Okeke/Dadiet
PF-Anunoby/Archiuwa/Morris
C-Towns/Sims/Hukporti

With Hart as our 6th man... Smh.

Minnesota doesn’t do the trade without Dante. NY must feel Deuce is ready to take over.
They do not see him as a point guard.

Ht Dante 6’4” Deuce 6’2”
Standing reach
Dante 8’1.5” Deuce 8’3.5”
Wingspan
Dante 6’6”. Deuce 6’8.75” Josh Hart 6’8
.
If Dante can play next to JB, so can Deuce.

9 man rotation
C- KAT/Mitch
PF- OG/Precious
SF- Mikal/JHart
SG-Deuce/JHart
PG- JB/ (Kolek or Payne)

If we’re going to play five out, Deuce is a knockdown shooter, a better fit starting, Josh is better as the sixth man backing up Mikal and Deuce.
We forget we started last year with Dante backing up Quentin Grimes.
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Re: Rose Master Plan Complete: Create best Thibs roster around Brunson 

Post#35 » by seren » Mon Sep 30, 2024 1:25 pm

spree2kawhi wrote:
seren wrote:He is collecting injury prone players on untradeable contracts. Our whole front court consists of players who average less than 60 games a season. We may end up significantly worse than anyone’s expectations if they can’t all at the same time stay healthy. It was one thing to carry one risk in Anonoby but KAT multiplies the risk tremendously. Don’t be shocked if Precious/Sims become our PF/C lineup to start way too many games

You’re acting like Randle played more games than Towns recently. This is next level hating. Randle has played 46 games last season and is coming off a shoulder surgery. Since 2020, Towns has played 27 playoff games. Compare that to Randle’s 15 and note that posters on this board have been adamant that his historically (!) lousy playoff resume was influenced by oh so many injuries. I take it you must have been one of them?


I make a point of not mentioning Randle in these discussions and that is for a reason. Randle is on a two year contract with a salary of nearly half of KAT’s. Randle may retire tomorrow and the calculation here wouldn’t have been different. We are carrying two very injury players on a combined 100 million a year contract for the next four years. This is incredibly risky.
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Re: Rose Master Plan Complete: Create best Thibs roster around Brunson 

Post#36 » by seren » Mon Sep 30, 2024 1:28 pm

KnixinSix wrote:
seren wrote:He is collecting injury prone players on untradeable contracts. Our whole front court consists of players who average less than 60 games a season. We may end up significantly worse than anyone’s expectations if they can’t all at the same time stay healthy. It was one thing to carry one risk in Anonoby but KAT multiplies the risk tremendously. Don’t be shocked if Precious/Sims become our PF/C lineup to start way too many games


Phillies roster is stacked with them. Injuries a very much a part of every sport including Basketball. And while some guys are more injury prone than others we are not on the high end here compared to other top contenders. Phoenix very old and injry prone. Clips with Kawhi. Lakers with AD and a 40 year old LeBron. Mavs with Kyrie. Etc. Etc.

Our roster replaced a guy who is older and becoming injury prone in Randle. KAT gets injuries but is younger and not what I would call severely injury prone. Bridges is an iron man so have no idea what you are talking about there. Brunson for all the abuse is fairly durable. We are actively trying to replace Mitch.

Every starting player in the line up is under 30 yet right in there prime with 5+ years of Basketball experience.
Some peeps want to be negative to be negative.

Our starting lineup is about as well set up as it could be.


Clips with Kawhi is exactly the scenario I would like to point. That franchise is hopeless for the next half a decade if not longer. AD/LBJ combo is not comparable given the length of commitment.

Overall these generalizations do not compare to the risk we are taking. You are right Clippers is the prime comparison which hasn’t been a great thing. But it could even be worse than that with all the new restrictions. When/if KAT and or OK goes down, the replacement is not a decent but declining veteran. It would be someone who would normally be out of league or a two way player.
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Re: Rose Master Plan Complete: Create best Thibs roster around Brunson 

Post#37 » by Jalen Bluntson » Mon Sep 30, 2024 1:58 pm

KnixinSix wrote:
Jalen Bluntson wrote:
NoLayupRule wrote:It’s pretty incredible that both towns and Brunson were children when rose became close to them

And now they are his corner stones

He’s put such a premium on the human side of things.


But anyway the defense at the 5 is going to be an issue.
The fact that we still have Robinson here is intriguing.

He’s still one of the best defensive anchors in the league.
When healthy.

I personally think he’s getting traded for a big.
A pf who can mix it up inside

I’m not sure who that is.
It’ll have to be a young guy that rose sees greatness in.
No one is trading a cornerstone big for an oft injured Robinson


Any ideas who could fit that bill?


You would be better off looking for a team that would want Mitch and trying to see what you would trade him for. His value has to be garbage right now. A team like the Knicks before the KAT trade would be desperate. People have named NOP but, no one believes they will trade any of the players they want for him. :lol:


Mitchell is available and I think we would reluctantly part with McBride if we had to in the right deal for a C.

But if they can get a rim protecting C without giving up McBride they would do it. An example of one that would probably require McBride.

Charlotte/Knicks trade:


In:
KNick Richards $5M
Cody Martin 8.1M
Taj Gibson 3.3M
Devonte Graham 2.8M
Total: 19.2M

Out:
Mitchell 14.3M
McBride 4.7M
Total:19M


That's not gonna work. We can't take in more salary than we send out. Apron rules.
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Re: Rose Master Plan Complete: Create best Thibs roster around Brunson 

Post#38 » by Jalen Bluntson » Mon Sep 30, 2024 2:13 pm

seren wrote:
KnixinSix wrote:
seren wrote:He is collecting injury prone players on untradeable contracts. Our whole front court consists of players who average less than 60 games a season. We may end up significantly worse than anyone’s expectations if they can’t all at the same time stay healthy. It was one thing to carry one risk in Anonoby but KAT multiplies the risk tremendously. Don’t be shocked if Precious/Sims become our PF/C lineup to start way too many games


Phillies roster is stacked with them. Injuries a very much a part of every sport including Basketball. And while some guys are more injury prone than others we are not on the high end here compared to other top contenders. Phoenix very old and injry prone. Clips with Kawhi. Lakers with AD and a 40 year old LeBron. Mavs with Kyrie. Etc. Etc.

Our roster replaced a guy who is older and becoming injury prone in Randle. KAT gets injuries but is younger and not what I would call severely injury prone. Bridges is an iron man so have no idea what you are talking about there. Brunson for all the abuse is fairly durable. We are actively trying to replace Mitch.

Every starting player in the line up is under 30 yet right in there prime with 5+ years of Basketball experience.
Some peeps want to be negative to be negative.

Our starting lineup is about as well set up as it could be.


Clips with Kawhi is exactly the scenario I would like to point. That franchise is hopeless for the next half a decade if not longer. AD/LBJ combo is not comparable given the length of commitment.

Overall these generalizations do not compare to the risk we are taking. You are right Clippers is the prime comparison which hasn’t been a great thing. But it could even be worse than that with all the new restrictions. When/if KAT and or OK goes down, the replacement is not a decent but declining veteran. It would be someone who would normally be out of league or a two way player.


Are you going to ignore the Sixers and Phoenix? KP in Boston? It's not just us. Teams take risks. Neither KAT nor OG have career threatening injury histories. Those other teams do. I do have some concern but, you pay to play. There is nothing guaranteed that either player will get injured either. That's just speculation and fear. Not crazy to suggest but, not a fact either. That's the name of the game. You have to play the games and see what happens.

In our case, we have YOUNG players to fill in if either player gets hurt. The entire roster is under under 30.

Pretty sure everything you posted is just wrong.
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Re: Rose Master Plan Complete: Create best Thibs roster around Brunson 

Post#39 » by KnixinSix » Mon Sep 30, 2024 2:32 pm

Ray Williams wrote:
Knicks218 wrote:Loosing DiVincenzo hurts bad I can't get over it smh. The trade should have been Randle, Robinson, McBride two 1st rd picks for KAT.

PG-Brunson/Payne/Arcaidiacon/Kolek
SG-DiVincenzo/Shamet/McCullar
SF-Bridges/Hart/Okeke/Dadiet
PF-Anunoby/Archiuwa/Morris
C-Towns/Sims/Hukporti

With Hart as our 6th man... Smh.

Minnesota doesn’t do the trade without Dante. NY must feel Deuce is ready to take over.
They do not see him as a point guard.

Ht Dante 6’4” Deuce 6’2”
Standing reach
Dante 8’1.5” Deuce 8’3.5”
Wingspan
Dante 6’6”. Deuce 6’8.75” Josh Hart 6’8
.
If Dante can play next to JB, so can Deuce.

9 man rotation
C- KAT/Mitch
PF- OG/Precious
SF- Mikal/JHart
SG-Deuce/JHart
PG- JB/ (Kolek or Payne)

If we’re going to play five out, Deuce is a knockdown shooter, a better fit starting, Josh is better as the sixth man backing up Mikal and Deuce.
We forget we started last year with Dante backing up Quentin Grimes.


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Re: Rose Master Plan Complete: Create best Thibs roster around Brunson 

Post#40 » by seren » Mon Sep 30, 2024 2:44 pm

Jalen Bluntson wrote:
seren wrote:
KnixinSix wrote:
Phillies roster is stacked with them. Injuries a very much a part of every sport including Basketball. And while some guys are more injury prone than others we are not on the high end here compared to other top contenders. Phoenix very old and injry prone. Clips with Kawhi. Lakers with AD and a 40 year old LeBron. Mavs with Kyrie. Etc. Etc.

Our roster replaced a guy who is older and becoming injury prone in Randle. KAT gets injuries but is younger and not what I would call severely injury prone. Bridges is an iron man so have no idea what you are talking about there. Brunson for all the abuse is fairly durable. We are actively trying to replace Mitch.

Every starting player in the line up is under 30 yet right in there prime with 5+ years of Basketball experience.
Some peeps want to be negative to be negative.

Our starting lineup is about as well set up as it could be.


Clips with Kawhi is exactly the scenario I would like to point. That franchise is hopeless for the next half a decade if not longer. AD/LBJ combo is not comparable given the length of commitment.

Overall these generalizations do not compare to the risk we are taking. You are right Clippers is the prime comparison which hasn’t been a great thing. But it could even be worse than that with all the new restrictions. When/if KAT and or OK goes down, the replacement is not a decent but declining veteran. It would be someone who would normally be out of league or a two way player.


Are you going to ignore the Sixers and Phoenix? KP in Boston? It's not just us. Teams take risks. Neither KAT nor OG have career threatening injury histories. Those other teams do. I do have some concern but, you pay to play. There is nothing guaranteed that either player will get injured either. That's just speculation and fear. Not crazy to suggest but, not a fact either. That's the name of the game. You have to play the games and see what happens.

In our case, we have YOUNG players to fill in if either player gets hurt. The entire roster is under under 30.

Pretty sure everything you posted is just wrong.


Boston took KP on half the price of KAT and one third of the price of KAT/OG duo. They ended up not having KP until the finals. Again all your examples point to what I am saying. You take one risk, it may or may not turn out well and that is okay. The Knicks took on multitude of risk tying half the cap on players averaging 50-60 games a year. Not one player. Not a contract that will expire couple of year from now. But half the cap for the next four years. The amount of risk we took is multiples of every example you gave. The downside of not having KP healthy is still a finals run. The backup is a solid vet who has done it many times. The downside of not having KAT/OG for long stretches is Sims/Precious with the downside risk of a .500 team.

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