For the first time, are the Knicks over-rated?

[nykballa2k4]

Just for reference the Dallas Mavericks were 23-17 on January 14th last year. People were grumbling for them to possibly shake things up or that Luka was going to maybe ask out. Instead they ironed out some weaknesses on the margins with a couple of small trades and made a run to the finals around two offense first stars who had not played a lot together yet...

Everyone needs to relax . You all really don't handle expectations well. The team's not perfect but no team in the league is. Especially, with the new CBA and how restrictive it is...

Adding Gafford and PJ Washington weren't minor moves.

And the Knicks have very little ability to make moves like that.

Unless you think that Cam Whitmore and Jonas Valanciunas are saving the season, and that's if those teams would even trade them to the Knicks

If we trade Mitch (and open up 14M) we have to replace him and we really need him exactly.
Precious is really the only asset we can move, we have like 1 pick we can send, and that's the end of our flexibility.
We have guards who can play: McBride, Shamet, Payne, Kolek. The reason that the bench doesn't score is because we used to have 3-4 scorers in the starting lineup and C was just a crumbs player. Now we have 5 starters who can get 20+. When guys go to the bench, the hungry starters (Bridges, OG) get their chance to eat. McBride is really the only one who brings offense.

I completely agree that we are not in position to do what Dallas did last year.

[nykballa2k4]

I have been a fan of this team for years, been on this forum longer than some posters have been alive.
From all of the Allan Houston "he's coming back" tours, to Eddy Curry/Jamal Crawford era.
Mike D'antoni, Mike Woodson. That Larry Brown experience.

Every year, I pretty much listened to ESPN and all the pundits talk poorly of the Knicks odds of a winning season.
A couple of moments, when we had "no chance" to beat the Heat with Melo, Amare, Chandler (amare famously punched a fire extinguisher, extinguishing our chances) this side story there was the uneven officiating LeBron has enjoyed in his career. From Wade getting no T, no foul call at all after throwing Bibby's shoe in the stands (should have been a brawl, but obviously we had a team of softies) to Tyson setting a legal screen on LeBron, who flops and draws a flagrant foul.

All this to say, I hear the media being VERY positive about this team.
We have KAT, he is very good. When he is good, we are good. I get all that.
However I can't say that I have seen a good team on the court yet this season.

I just don't see it.
Brunson is not dominating and devastating.
I am not seeing us have a big man out wrestle two from the other team giving us the ball with an open man.
I am not seeing quick feet on the perimeter.

I am seeing PnR destroy us.
I am seeing zone defense stymieing us.
I am seeing ballyhooed and well compensated players putting up weak performances, inconsistent shooting, poor defense.
I am seeing absolutely no resistance at the rim like it's a diddy party at 3am.

The record looks good for the moment. It feels hollow. I don't feel any identity from the team aside from Hart trying to be a glue.
We overpaid for Bridges.
We lost DDV who was a big part of chemistry with Brunson.
OG went from an asset to a bloated contract (Knicks tax)

Unless something actually changes, this feels like a team that could see itself in a play-in situation.

LMAO WHAT?!

Some of you doomers are insane. A team that's top 5 in Net Rating is going to somehow find it's way in the play in.. Do you even hear yourself?

Knicks are going to wind up 7th or 8th seed. Book it.

They haven't even suffered the first major injury yet, and that is coming for OG or KAT any day now.

We have played soft against soft competition. We will have more adversity and we will have to do something that we have not all year -- which is play our bench. Other teams are going to get better at the deadline. We used up pretty much all of our assets.

[Guano]

yes

diabolical return

[WaltFrazier]

Trouble is the bench is too small. Deuce Payne and Shamet are all guards who aren't very big. Precious has good size and athleticism for a 4 but lacks offensive skill and a three, and is a bit small for backup 5. Other teams have taller athletic wings off the bench who can shoot threes and defend. Mitch will help a lot, and it be crazy to trade him unless we got a good center back. But we need a young athletic wing off the bench instead of Shamet.

[Adelheid]

if only deuce could be somewhat better at ballhandling, he could be the definitive backup pg, as he can defend the PoA much better than anyone else

[Loisl]

No, in fact they are underperforming... because of a unused/unbalanced/unconsistent bench and a maniac who runs the starting 5 into the ground. A few minutes would do wonders. Nobody cares about 5 wins less if it keeps your legs fresh and the team healthy come playoff time.

[WargamesX]

We are top heavy. Being top heavy is an advantage in the playoffs if you can stay healthy. The problem is Thibs is trying hard, really hard, to ensure we won't be healthy. I have to say at this stage, this is insanity when you are playing your bench less than 60 mpg which is 12 minutes a game less than the second lowest team.

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask?q=teams+that+played+least+bench+minutes+per+game+2024-25

I don’t think he is trying to make them not healthy, He’s trying to get a high seed like he does every season. It’s just the factors he needs for that leads to fatigue which in turn leads to injuries.

He legit might not be the right person for this team, except this team was made for him specifically. I have never been a fan of Thibs but what we’re seeing are the outcomes of franchise level choices the FO made. The record is too good to pull the plug now. Honestly the playoffs would have to either not be reached out they would have to lose in the first round for the FO to even seriously consider firing Thibs. This is his team, if anything the FO needs to figure out how to get him another guy he would play for cheap. Somebody he would trust. The issue there is you never know if that will work until the guy gets here and Thib starts playing them.

[tmorgan]

Don’t let a couple losses to the Pistons freak you out this much. We’re actually pretty good, and many nights we even have the best player on the floor these days.

Thibs murdering his starters is a real problem, though.

[TheProfessor]

what does over-rated mean tho? Like if you think the knicks have a realistic chance at ring then yes, Overrated. If you think the knicks are a 2/3rd round exist and are currently playing excellent basketball. This team is a lot like 90% of the 2019 Raptors except the 2019 Raptors didn't have to go up against the Celtics and had the best player in most of their series, Knicks don't have that luxury. They are a top heavy team without MVP talent.

[Adelheid]

Don’t let a couple losses to the Pistons freak you out this much. We’re actually pretty good, and many nights we even have the best player on the floor these days.

Thibs murdering his starters is a real problem, though.

good for you guys, you have come a long way to getting this good

yeah this is pretty much fatigue + chemistry problem...a team meeting will sort this one out

[MrDollarBills]

Knicks starting lineup net rating by quarter

1st +0.1
2nd +4.5
3rd +10.3
4th -0.3



They're not overrated; they're just overplayed. By every metric this team is elite for 2 quarters of the game, oddly enough the "most prepared" coach in the league can't seem to get his team to perform in the 1st quarter while the other elite teams beat the brakes off teams in the first we're often playing even or barely ahead. The 2nd and 3rd quarters the team finally comes to life, but the team has a worse net rating in the 4th than the Nets.

I don't understand why this concept is so hard to grasp. The starters are heavily used and Thibs makes no attempts to stagger minutes or buy guys time to catch their breath. And then when OG and Mikal start playing like garbage after playing 20 straight minutes, or KAT commits a dumb foul or is too gassed to cover area defensively, people start losing their minds.

I'm not saying that the bench is good. But if Thibs can't leverage Deuce, Payne, Shamet and Precious in a way to keep guys fresh for crunch time, that's on him. There are other contending teams with players in the rotation who aren't that great but they make it work.

Playing Karl 42 minutes on the tail end of a B2B with a compromised hand is one of the dumbest things I've ever seen on a basketball court. I'm sorry. Thibs is out of his mind.

[thebuzzardman]

Don’t let a couple losses to the Pistons freak you out this much. We’re actually pretty good, and many nights we even have the best player on the floor these days.

Thibs murdering his starters is a real problem, though.

We don't give a f*ck about the Pistons.

[MrDollarBills]

A team that is on a 50 win pace isn't overrated.

[thebuzzardman]

Knicks are the Craig Ehlo era Cavs and Bridges is Ehlo

[thebuzzardman]

A team that is on a 50 win pace isn't overrated.

Craig Ehlo Cavs won 50 and were always the 5th best NBA playoff team. Just like this team.

[spree2kawhi]

No, they've got undeniable talent - not potential, but actual established, high-end, elite talent - but they have a coach that does not have it organized and presented in a way to make it work best.

They can be run ragged, have no offensive system, and miss defensive assignments, and the talent is so good that it will still lead them to the 5th best winning percentage in the NBA halfway through the season.

So no, they're properly rated. They're an elite team, but with a governor. The question remains what a restrictive coach can produce his way with this level of talent.

This may very well be the most talented team in the league. It has been together for half a season. End of story.

[MrDollarBills]

A team that is on a 50 win pace isn't overrated.

Craig Ehlo Cavs won 50 and were always the 5th best NBA playoff team. Just like this team.

Jalen Brunson is the modern day Mark Price, confirmed.

KAT is Brad Daughtery.

[RHODEY]

They have an amazing team, they are 26-15 at the halfway mark, they will win 50, its the coach that holds them back

Not just the coach, the bench is severely lacking.

[RHODEY]

Just for reference the Dallas Mavericks were 23-17 on January 14th last year. People were grumbling for them to possibly shake things up or that Luka was going to maybe ask out. Instead they ironed out some weaknesses on the margins with a couple of small trades and made a run to the finals around two offense first stars who had not played a lot together yet...

Everyone needs to relax . You all really don't handle expectations well. The team's not perfect but no team in the league is. Especially, with the new CBA and how restrictive it is...

Adding Gafford and PJ Washington weren't minor moves.

And the Knicks have very little ability to make moves like that.

Unless you think that Cam Whitmore and Jonas Valanciunas are saving the season, and that's if those teams would even trade them to the Knicks

They'd save our bench...which would save our starter's health....which would save our season.....so yeah.

[RHODEY]

Knicks are the Craig Ehlo era Cavs and Bridges is Ehlo

thebuzzardman is the modern day Howard Cosell...with a worse toupee.